Sketchmons ORAS - Diggersby and Shell Smash Banned!

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Just ban ESpeed Spore and Dark Void instead of banning thundurus diggersby and whatever else after that... ban the broken strategy, not the best abuser. See: Drizzle + Swift Swim for how even OU can do it properly. but people in OMs are so stubborn... Look at Mix and Mega, Luc and DNite got banned and people still complain about Zygarde. JUST BAN THE MOVES.
 
Just ban ESpeed Spore and Dark Void instead of banning thundurus diggersby and whatever else after that... ban the broken strategy, not the best abuser. See: Drizzle + Swift Swim for how even OU can do it properly. but people in OMs are so stubborn... Look at Mix and Mega, Luc and DNite got banned and people still complain about Zygarde. JUST BAN THE MOVES.
Your entire argument here, and in MnM, as well as that of every other person that has had this sentiment in my awareness, has been "multiple Pokemon had this feature and got banned, why not ban the feature?"

The problem is correlation is not causation. In MnM, we have three Pokemon bans: Dragonite, Lucario, and Cresselia. Cresselia was a nightmare with Sablenite -there was a phase there where people were trying to argue Sablenite should be banned, which was ridiculous, because Cresselia was the only Pokemon that was broken with it, or even anywhere close to it. You're essentially arguing that the MnM council should've barred eight Pokemon from -atespeed that are not broken with it to maybe unbreak two Pokemon. Why? Exactly how is this increasing diversity, to ban -atespeed rather than banning the two most problematic abusers?

Also note that the Dynamic Punch/Zap Cannon No Guard abuse shenanigans got those two moves banned in MnM, rather than the abusers (Way too many to name, but Mew was the most popular one) or Pidgeotite, which is a great Mega Stone but not broken or uncompetitive when you remove Dynamic Punch and Zap Cannon from the equation. It's only with those two moves that it becomes an uncounterable hax nightmare.

Arguing that "two Pokemon got banned whom ran Extreme Speed is proof that we should ban Extreme Speed" is faulty logic. It's treating correlation -two Pokemon share the two features of "brokenness" and "runs Extreme Speed"- as causation: "the brokenness is an exclusive property of them running Extreme Speed".

No. Full stop, no. If you want to actually support your position, explain what makes Extreme Speed fundamentally so broken it should be removed from the meta entirely, while also explaining, in detail, how Mega Pinsir and Diggersby are totally fine and not broken if you remove Extreme Speed, then feel free to go ahead with that plan. I'm open to being proven wrong, personally. (I extend this to the MnM examples, though take it to the MnM thread if you care to)

But if you're just going to throw around this "correlation=causation" thing, just stop talking. That's wrong, it's always going to be wrong, you should never use it as logic in anything ever, certainly not as part of an argument about competitive games.

It's me literally asking why we are suspecting multiple mons when we could just restrict extreme speed and solve any doubt if any others Extreme speed abusers will be broken. Don't give me the "we're undoing other bans" - that's the point of new leadership, or "it's only X mons who are broken", we just wasted three weeks suspecting them one by one, we could've dealt with Set up as well, but apparently not.
You too. Generate an argument supporting your position, and shut up with this faulty "correlation=causation" crap. Oh no, two of our bans ran Extreme Speed before they were banned! So? Is Extreme Speed fundamentally broken? How? Are Mega Pinsir and Diggersby fair and balanced without Extreme Speed? Show it.

Don't just point to "we banned more than one Pokemon that was running Extreme Speed" and pretend this is any kind of proof that Extreme Speed should be banned.

It's not.

We haven't even banned more than one Pokemon running Extreme Speed anyway. It's one ban, one suspect right now. That's an even weaker basis for "let's ban Extreme Speed instead" than I've been making it out to be.

---

On Diggersby, I personally don't think it's healthy for the meta. No wall can actually switch in on it and drive it out more than maybe once, except by virtue of it missing the right coverage move -either it's running Knock Off or it's running Wild Charge- while offensive teams can't switch in on it or revenge it either. You also can't just sacrifice whatever's in front of it to revenge it, because it will set up on you. STAB Normal move+Earthquake+Knock Off+Swords Dance can take on literally everything in the metagame except Skarmory, and even Skarmory takes way too much damage from Diggersby.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 201-238 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It doesn't even need Wild Charge to do so much damage that Skarmory is at high risk of being KOed by whatever gets Whirlwinded in. Barring Skarmory running King's Shield and getting the predict, Skarmory is merely a shaky check, not even a counter, even before Diggersby instead runs Wild Charge.

You can't even revenge non-Extreme Speed Diggersby with Talonflame reliably.

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Diggersby: 289-342 (92.9 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Good odds, but not perfect. And a Shift Gear Diggersby would run bulk and reliably survive it.

Pretty much the only reliable way to revenge Diggersby is to have a faster Ghost, and again, Shift Gear Diggersby would laugh at that plan.

"Oh, but Shift Gear Diggersby doesn't hit as hard as Swords Dance". Sure. And then Shell Smash Diggersby rises to popularity. It's not even as fragile as you'd think because, as with Shift Gear Diggersby, it can just run bulk and still outspeed everything after boosting.

Diggersby is like Deoxys-Attack or Aegislash in OU. You have to know its set to have any chance of countering it safely. A single misstep is liable to cost you a Pokemon, and it may cost you the match. You can't scout it in any kind of safety, but you have to scout it, full stop.

Keep in mind the team I've been running has half the team made of Diggersby checks and I still can't reliably deal with it, and this is with literally every Diggersby running Extreme Speed as their Sketched move. Hell, I can say with complete confidence that every set I've fought is Extreme Speed/Earthquake/Knock Off or Wild Charge/Swords Dance, and knowing this to be true hasn't actually made it possible to generate a counter. I'm not even having to deal with "well, some of them are Shell Smash". Diggersby can run what amounts to the one set and still be this utterly ridiculous nightmare.

(As an aside, though it's not currently being suspected: Tornadus-Incarnate hasn't been a big deal for me. Sap Sipper Goodra with recovery is a hard stop to it, if it's not running Superpower it can't touch Specially Defensive Tyranitar, etc)
 
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Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
"beggars cant be choosers" is a term i like to use in this scenario. IF you decide to start banning moves, then it becomes a tug of war determining which is more broken, moves, or pokemon. so, for example. is it chansey thats broken with transform? or is it transform thats broken with fused with chansey?(bad example,) you can argue both sides all you want, both are truthful, and results in a complete divide of opinion, people who want moves banned, people who want pokemon banned, and people who dont want anything banned. its understandable on why one could see how moves are banworthy. if you are going to go the "ban move" method, its almost required you lift the ban of pokemon (aka, this becomes "Ubers-Sketchmons edition" as otherwise we will just be nitpicking whats broken or not. for example, the meta would become like this: "we banned thundurus because spore was too good on it" "we banned espeed because diggersby is too good with it" thats nitpicking the meta if ive ever seen it.

on top of this, its a lot less "meta destroying" to ban one pokemon, then it is to nerf over 200 different pokemon who would otherwise be fine with said move. banning moves is not only unhealthy for the community, but for the meta itself. the fact that diggers wouldnt be broken with other move sets is irrelevant. it also wouldn't be broken without max EV's yet clearly banning 252/252 spreads is out of the question.

dont get me wrong, banning moves isn't completely rediculous. HOWEVER it would be super unhealthy for the community to "pick and choose" what is broken, because then problems will arise.
 
I have a few points/questions. First, is there a place to play this after the ladder? This has been one of my favorite OMOTM in awhile, and I'd like to continue with it.
Second, for the Diggersby suspect, I honestly haven't had much of a problem with it. To be fair, I don't think I've seen any SD variants which is apparently the problem, but in general I seem to be able to manage it well even despite ESpeed. The Cofagrigus that I've been using to deal with Lopunny (thanks again, Ghoul King!) can switch in and then cripple Diggersby with a burn. The Cloyster I've been using since the beginning of the month also seems to handle it well, taking an ESpeed and then being able to retaliate with Icicle Spear; and then using Water Shuriken on the next turn before any incoming Wild Charge. Now I don't mean to act like these are hard counters by any means, but I do want to show that the Diggersby is not unstoppable, and the mons being used to stop it weren't added to the team with it in mind, so I don't quite see it as over-centralizing. I've never participated much in suspects, but considering I really enjoy this meta and community, I wanted to throw my two cents in there.

Third, is there going to be anything about Thundurus-I? It still seems to me that the sleep-inducing variants as well as OWing variants can be troublesome; another case of really having to know what set your opponent is playing. Think you can switch in a grass type on the incoming Spore? Nope, your mon is asleep due to Dark Void, or worse, gone because it was OWing. I understand if we decide to let it go for now because it's nearing the end of the ladder, but it was just a concern I thought I'd bring up.
 
I have a few points/questions. First, is there a place to play this after the ladder? This has been one of my favorite OMOTM in awhile, and I'd like to continue with it.
Second, for the Diggersby suspect, I honestly haven't had much of a problem with it. To be fair, I don't think I've seen any SD variants which is apparently the problem, but in general I seem to be able to manage it well even despite ESpeed. The Cofagrigus that I've been using to deal with Lopunny (thanks again, Ghoul King!) can switch in and then cripple Diggersby with a burn. The Cloyster I've been using since the beginning of the month also seems to handle it well, taking an ESpeed and then being able to retaliate with Icicle Spear; and then using Water Shuriken on the next turn before any incoming Wild Charge. Now I don't mean to act like these are hard counters by any means, but I do want to show that the Diggersby is not unstoppable, and the mons being used to stop it weren't added to the team with it in mind, so I don't quite see it as over-centralizing. I've never participated much in suspects, but considering I really enjoy this meta and community, I wanted to throw my two cents in there.

Third, is there going to be anything about Thundurus-I? It still seems to me that the sleep-inducing variants as well as OWing variants can be troublesome; another case of really having to know what set your opponent is playing. Think you can switch in a grass type on the incoming Spore? Nope, your mon is asleep due to Dark Void, or worse, gone because it was OWing. I understand if we decide to let it go for now because it's nearing the end of the ladder, but it was just a concern I thought I'd bring up.

I'd prefer if we solve problems one by one rather than solving many things at once. This way we'll give a better treatment to the meta. We can deal with Thundurus later. For now, let's just focus on discussing Diggersby.

You can continue in Aqua if you still want to continue playing this meta.
 
wonder guard electric type with air balloon... set up electric terrain and tailwind than get out of there with memento THAN with shednja use camouflage... instant win

Whimsicott @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
- Electric Terrain
- Memento
- Tailwind

Shedinja @ Air Balloon
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Camouflage
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor
- Shadow Claw
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
wonder guard electric type with air balloon... set up electric terrain and tailwind than get out of there with memento THAN with shednja use camouflage... instant win

Whimsicott @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
- Electric Terrain
- Memento
- Tailwind

Shedinja @ Air Balloon
Ability: Wonder Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Camouflage
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor
- Shadow Claw
The opposing Sableye used Will-O'-Wisp!
Shedinja was burned!

no I can't take jokes
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Yeah, endeavor and magic coat are the only two moves that make sense to sketch besides that niche set I had never thought of.
 
Yeah, endeavor and magic coat are the only two moves that make sense to sketch besides that niche set I had never thought of.
I've seen Camouflage in action and i gotta tell ya it can be pretty clutch at times, especially versus offense where status moves are rarer. Camouflage without any altered terrain is actually better in my opinion since it transforms Shed into a normal type, and since fighting moves are fairly uncommon Shedinja can be a pretty cool win-con. Now that it doesn't need air balloon like in the previous set it can run much better items like lum berry or focus sash.
 
I'd like to thank The Immortal for giving me the ownership of this thread and a permission to bump this thread.

Added Recommended Sketch Moves to the op.

Added Viability Rankings to the second post.

Since TI said that I should bump the thread with something useful, in post #411 page 17, I listed some potential threats. It's still very few while this meta has unlimited possibilities. So, what are some other potential sets that needs to be prepared?
 
I'd like to thank The Immortal for giving me the ownership of this thread and a permission to bump this thread.

Added Recommended Sketch Moves to the op.

Added Viability Rankings to the second post.

Since TI said that I should bump the thread with something useful, in post #411 page 17, I listed some potential threats. It's still very few while this meta has unlimited possibilities. So, what are some other potential sets that needs to be prepared?
Talonflame. While it is outprioritized by extreme speed, it gets all the coverage it needs to win against its checks. Power whip? Sacred sword/Close Combat? Precipice blades? It also outspeeds ordinary priority users- the only things with a shot are espeeders and flying resists with priority (ie sucker punch ttar, etc). While espeed is pretty huge, it can and will sweep once they are gone/weakened.
It can also get setup in belly drum, stronger second stab in V-create, or even utility moves such as priority defog on defensive sets.
 
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I personally believe Mega Pidgeot should be bumped to either A- or B+. The Hurricane + Focus Blast combo is hard for offensive teams to switch into, and if it packs Work Up (pretty easy to fit in) it becomes tough to stop after a boost or 2. Unlike Tornadus-T its Hurricane won't miss, and Tornadus-T has to run max Special Attack and a Life Orb to outdamage it.

Also, Victini with Precipice Blades. Heatran ain't walling you no more - it also has 93.5% accuracy thanks to Victory Star
 
I personally believe Mega Pidgeot should be bumped to either A- or B+. The Hurricane + Focus Blast combo is hard for offensive teams to switch into, and if it packs Work Up (pretty easy to fit in) it becomes tough to stop after a boost or 2. Unlike Tornadus-T its Hurricane won't miss, and Tornadus-T has to run max Special Attack and a Life Orb to outdamage it.

Also, Victini with Precipice Blades. Heatran ain't walling you no more - it also has 93.5% accuracy thanks to Victory Star
While I agree that Mega Pidgeot should be higher, I think it has better niche than running Focus Blast, namely Zap Cannon, Inferno, Sing and even Dynamic Punch, which can act as Chatter 2.0 if Mega Pidgeot holds it (and its viable. Work Up makes Dynamic Punch stronger, not just its Hurricane).
 
On the subject of viability rankings, Mega Pidgeot should really be bumped up. A- IMO, there's a lot of moves it can Sketch. Focus Blast gives it fantastic coverage with Hurricane; Zap Cannon lets you cripple bulky Water types and even resists are now paralysed; Inferno's guaranteed burn can cripple checks like Tyranitar; Sing puts a counter out of commission and also bypasses Substitute; Boomburst is another strong STAB which wrecks Zapdos and Rotom-W.

Also, Suicune should be moved down. Sketching a recovery move is good, but leaves it total Toxic bait. And other than the ability to hold Leftovers and better SpD, what does it have over Mega Slowbro?
 
perms from chopin to bump this thread with this banner

Thank you . Added your banner to the OP.

Added list of sample teams and added one of my teams in it.

I will be accepting sample teams, so post your Sketchmons teams here if you have and add some descriptions :)

Regarding Viability Rankings, I edited some things:

No more S+ and S- split, only S rank.
Also after discussing with some people in ps and here, moved Mega Pidgeot to A-.

On the subject of viability rankings, Mega Pidgeot should really be bumped up. A- IMO, there's a lot of moves it can Sketch. Focus Blast gives it fantastic coverage with Hurricane; Zap Cannon lets you cripple bulky Water types and even resists are now paralysed; Inferno's guaranteed burn can cripple checks like Tyranitar; Sing puts a counter out of commission and also bypasses Substitute; Boomburst is another strong STAB which wrecks Zapdos and Rotom-W.

Also, Suicune should be moved down. Sketching a recovery move is good, but leaves it total Toxic bait. And other than the ability to hold Leftovers and better SpD, what does it have over Mega Slowbro?
Well, it doesn't take up a mega slot, have better Special Defense and Speed, which is pretty nice I think. But yeah, it's kind of not really B+ worthy. Any more comments on Suicune dropping?
 

xJownage

Even pendulums swing both ways
Thank you . Added your banner to the OP.

Added list of sample teams and added one of my teams in it.

I will be accepting sample teams, so post your Sketchmons teams here if you have and add some descriptions :)

Regarding Viability Rankings, I edited some things:

No more S+ and S- split, only S rank.
Also after discussing with some people in ps and here, moved Mega Pidgeot to A-.



Well, it doesn't take up a mega slot, have better Special Defense and Speed, which is pretty nice I think. But yeah, it's kind of not really B+ worthy. Any more comments on Suicune dropping?
Yeah, Suicune is definitely not a very relevant threat compared to Mega Slowbro especially, which generally fills its role better. It tanks knock offs and there aren't very many relevant bug/ghost types in the meta, so I would probably prefer MegaBro for the bulk boost and regen pre-mega anyways (not to mention the much bigger offensive presence).

Why the fuck is Clefable still in A+? This argument was posted to death last OMotM, it honestly deserves like A- rank. It has to tailor its set to beat certain threats, and each set doesn't beat very many top tier foes - all together it defeats a lot of mons, but it has to pick just a few, and is virtually useless outside of whatever it picks. I would much rather run a better blanket check to threats, especially considering Clefable's typing isn't giving it anything over the myriad of bulkier mons that can upgrade their movepools to match Clefable and assert enough pressure that unaware is much less needed.

Anyways, dropping a couple of old teams I used. Both were moderately successful hyper offensive teams, and are probably great for newcomers.



Heatran @ Power Herb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 88 HP / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
- Geomancy
- Fire Blast
- Flash Cannon
- Taunt

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Skill Swap

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Boomburst
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Taunt

Tyranitar @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Pursuit
- Parting Shot

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Shift Gear
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head

This is a Hyper offensive team that relies on Sand and a great cleaner in Geomancy Heatran to accomplish it's goals. Double Scarf is a bad concept in most tiers, but Ditto's effectiveness actually makes it work well on this team, especially because Landorus doesn't trap itself by attacking due to U-turn. Sand is very effective in a meta full of speed control and fast sweepers, especially because Excadrill resists Extremespeed and other forms of priority, such as Talonflame's Brave Bird or Acrobatics. Excadrill also retains the ability to set up and sweep teams even without sand support due to Shift Gear. Tyranitar is also a great setter because Parting Shot now allows it to play as a specially bulky pivot that gives many mons on the team opportunities to set up as a result of its slowness. Geomancy Heatran is a really cool cleaner in the tier, being very unexpected by most players, who predict a defensive set that sketches Recover. It's switch-forcing abilities create cleaning opportunities. Earth Power can be chosen over Taunt, but it was generally unnecessary on this team, and Taunt breaks balance that tries to phase very efficiently.



Latias @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 168 Def / 88 Spe
Bold Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Roost
- Stored Power
- Dragon Pulse

Cobalion @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Iron Head

Diggersby @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Return

Landorus-Therian @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Ascent
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Magnezone @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon
- Blue Flare

Serperior @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Leaf Storm
- V-create
- Dragon Pulse
- Synthesis

Yet another Hyper offensive team, this one revolving around a defensive mon, Quiver Dance Mega Latias. Mega Latias, when fully invested, is a physical beast, being able to tank a +2 LO Diggersby's Extreme Speed, which is an incredible feat in itself. Quiver Dance allows it to set up to amazing heights in conjunction with the bulk, as it sets up on mons like Heatran, and it even pp stalls imposters and transform Chansey due to not being 2hko'd by Dragon Pulse. Magnezone is a big support for Mega Latias, eliminating the steels that generally give Mega Latias problems. Head Smash Cobalion is a bit of an innovation me and Dr. Phd. BJ came up with when building this team, as it eliminates a lot of common checks to Cobalion and hits really, really hard, surprising many foes. Cobalion also has the ability to check Diggersby, which is a massive threat to any hyper offensive team. Landorus-T with a scarf is a staple revenge killer on any team. Serperior and Diggersby retain the ability to sweep at a moments notice, while Diggersby's Espeed allows it to serve as a revenge killer when faced with an opponent Landorus-T can't outspeed. Overall, this team relies on putting tons of pressure on your opponents and being able to sweep at a moment's notice. Just be as reckless as possible and you will win many battles.
 

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