Ladder STABmons (the old one)

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Snaquaza

KACAW
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Lately, when I've joined STABmons tours, I've used a well, innovative team. It works fairly well and although it's far from perfect (BellySpeed Kangaskhan and Stoutland destroy it), it's a lot of fun to use with the underused mons and sets I use, and the fact it still works reasonably well. The main idea of the team was Hex Aegislash, to get a better Special STAB move.


Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Hex
- Flash Cannon / Doom Desire
- King's Shield
- Hidden Power [Fire]

So this thing has always been great, both in standard and in STABmons, but I feel special sets are underappreciated in STABmons, due to it getting better physical moves and Shift Gear. The special set is still good in STABmons, but I decided to use this fun new move Aegislash gets in STABmons: Hex. While it is normally inferior to Shadow Ball, it has an astonishing 130 BP when the opponent is status'd, allowing it to easily break through most opponents, especially due to most status hurting them as well. While I don't think calcs prove anything, I'll post some to show the power difference with Shadow Ball.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 244-288 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 193-228 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Hex (130 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 313-369 (85.9 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

As you can see, the power difference is rather big. Although you need some support, it allows you to nuke most things. When the opponent is not poisoned, burned, or having another status, you can still use Flash Cannon or Hidden Power Fire. I also included Doom Desire here, while I don't use it, I know a lot of people love it and it seems a decent option over Flash Cannon. If you do have it, you need to watch out a lot more though, since its easier to take advantage of you when you aren't facing a statused opponent. King's Shield is to get back into Shield Form and is great for mindgames, although I spam it a lot. Hidden Power Fire was my final coverage move, to not let Scizor set up on me and lure it in. Aegislash won't get KO'd by Knock Off even at +1 (it caps out at 99.3 when Scizor is offensive, so watch out), so you're free to spam King's Shield and Hidden Power Fire. I usually just use Hidden Power Fire as they usually attempt to set up, just to get KOd and I feel its usually better to have a dead Aegislash and an opposing Mega Scizor without boosts, than possibly allowing Mega Scizor to set up, though this depends on your team. Obviously this set enjoys status support, so Toxic Spikes are great and I use Sableye to spread burns to Pokemon who are immune to Toxic Spikes (quite a lot :s). If you use this set, it may be worth burning random special attackers as well with Sableye, since you can take advantage of them easily that way.

For Toxic Spikes support, I use Crobat. It's not great, but it gets its job done.


Crobat @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Roost
- Dragon Ascent
- Taunt

So, the main purpose of this Pokemon is to get up Toxic Spikes at all costs and its a great Pokemon for it as its extremely speedy and has decent bulk, so it can even switch into certain threats and either force them out, or set up on them. It also means it won't fodder to priority that easily. Although it may die setting up Toxic Spikes, it'll have done its purpose, but often it is important to check threats as well with its high speed, and it even counters some things. Because of this, I usually allow it to die early during the game, but sometimes I keep it alive when it needs to check important mons (also try to keep it alive when there are Defoggers you can't stop, or grounded Poison types). Toxic Spikes is obviously the crux of the set, giving Hex a power boost and causing residual damage on the opponent. Roost is for when you can stall out the opponent and allows it to beat more defensive Pokemon (or sometimes offensive!). Dragon Ascent is a good STAB move, to keep a bit of offensive presence, which has good coverage. It may allow you to revenge Pokemon, especially fighting types, due to its high speed. Taunt is the final move for if you lead with this, so you can stop Stealth Rock, Defog and setting up, which is really important in STABmons! Finally, it allows you to stallbreak.

While these may not be the best Pokemon in STABmons, they're fun to use for sure, and I've had some success with them. Maybe you will too!

PS: I am not sure if these are the best EV spreads. I just have standard ones and there may be much better ones to live certain hits, or creep certain threats.
 
Lately, when I've joined STABmons tours, I've used a well, innovative team. It works fairly well and although it's far from perfect (BellySpeed Kangaskhan and Stoutland destroy it), it's a lot of fun to use with the underused mons and sets I use, and the fact it still works reasonably well. The main idea of the team was Hex Aegislash, to get a better Special STAB move.


Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Hex
- Flash Cannon / Doom Desire
- King's Shield
- Hidden Power [Fire]

So this thing has always been great, both in standard and in STABmons, but I feel special sets are underappreciated in STABmons, due to it getting better physical moves and Shift Gear. The special set is still good in STABmons, but I decided to use this fun new move Aegislash gets in STABmons: Hex. While it is normally inferior to Shadow Ball, it has an astonishing 130 BP when the opponent is status'd, allowing it to easily break through most opponents, especially due to most status hurting them as well. While I don't think calcs prove anything, I'll post some to show the power difference with Shadow Ball.

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 244-288 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 193-228 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Hex (130 BP) vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 313-369 (85.9 - 101.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

As you can see, the power difference is rather big. Although you need some support, it allows you to nuke most things. When the opponent is not poisoned, burned, or having another status, you can still use Flash Cannon or Hidden Power Fire. I also included Doom Desire here, while I don't use it, I know a lot of people love it and it seems a decent option over Flash Cannon. If you do have it, you need to watch out a lot more though, since its easier to take advantage of you when you aren't facing a statused opponent. King's Shield is to get back into Shield Form and is great for mindgames, although I spam it a lot. Hidden Power Fire was my final coverage move, to not let Scizor set up on me and lure it in. Aegislash won't get KO'd by Knock Off even at +1 (it caps out at 99.3 when Scizor is offensive, so watch out), so you're free to spam King's Shield and Hidden Power Fire. I usually just use Hidden Power Fire as they usually attempt to set up, just to get KOd and I feel its usually better to have a dead Aegislash and an opposing Mega Scizor without boosts, than possibly allowing Mega Scizor to set up, though this depends on your team. Obviously this set enjoys status support, so Toxic Spikes are great and I use Sableye to spread burns to Pokemon who are immune to Toxic Spikes (quite a lot :s). If you use this set, it may be worth burning random special attackers as well with Sableye, since you can take advantage of them easily that way.

For Toxic Spikes support, I use Crobat. It's not great, but it gets its job done.


Crobat @ Sharp Beak
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Roost
- Dragon Ascent
- Taunt

So, the main purpose of this Pokemon is to get up Toxic Spikes at all costs and its a great Pokemon for it as its extremely speedy and has decent bulk, so it can even switch into certain threats and either force them out, or set up on them. It also means it won't fodder to priority that easily. Although it may die setting up Toxic Spikes, it'll have done its purpose, but often it is important to check threats as well with its high speed, and it even counters some things. Because of this, I usually allow it to die early during the game, but sometimes I keep it alive when it needs to check important mons (also try to keep it alive when there are Defoggers you can't stop, or grounded Poison types). Toxic Spikes is obviously the crux of the set, giving Hex a power boost and causing residual damage on the opponent. Roost is for when you can stall out the opponent and allows it to beat more defensive Pokemon (or sometimes offensive!). Dragon Ascent is a good STAB move, to keep a bit of offensive presence, which has good coverage. It may allow you to revenge Pokemon, especially fighting types, due to its high speed. Taunt is the final move for if you lead with this, so you can stop Stealth Rock, Defog and setting up, which is really important in STABmons! Finally, it allows you to stallbreak.

While these may not be the best Pokemon in STABmons, they're fun to use for sure, and I've had some success with them. Maybe you will too!

PS: I am not sure if these are the best EV spreads. I just have standard ones and there may be much better ones to live certain hits, or creep certain threats.
For a Toxic Spiker, what about Cofagrigus? It learns the move, can use Hex on its own, and can burn opponents. It also gets Haze, making it a decent stop to Normal types. Mummy also helps, in the way that it can remove Stoutland's Scrappy, (Mega) Scizor's Technician, Braviary's Defiant, Sableye's Prankster (assuming Knock Off), Mega Gyarados' Mold Breaker, and others. Ghost also gives it Destiny Bond, I believe, to discourage attackers from taking it out. It is lacking on the special side of the spectrum, however.

Maybe even Weezing would work? Or Roserade? Roserade gets Seed Flare, I guess, but will probably have a hard time setting up hazards due to its poor physical bulk.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
I haven't used it much but Toxic Spikes Gengar is probably the best offensive Tspiker and it can also learn Hex. I like Tspikes / attack / attack / Taunt or WOW. Spin and Defog blocker all in one! Bar Scrappy.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Hopefully I'm not asking a ridiculous question but why was keldeo banned?
Granted with ridiculous new STABs in Water Spout, Focus Blast and Origin Pulse combined with its 129 SpAtk and 108 Spd proved it to be too strong in STABmons, especially thanks to its choiced sets
 
Granted with ridiculous new STABs in Water Spout, Focus Blast and Origin Pulse combined with its 129 SpAtk and 108 Spd proved it to be too strong in STABmons, especially thanks to its choiced sets
Well, on top of this, it had very powerful SubCM sets that beat most of the metagame. Keldeo's SubCM pushed it over, but the Specs / Scarf sets were pretty solid as well.
 

baconbagon

free stabmons
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Granted with ridiculous new STABs in Water Spout, Focus Blast and Origin Pulse combined with its 129 SpAtk and 108 Spd proved it to be too strong in STABmons, especially thanks to its choiced sets
I've been wondering: did Keldeo ever use Vacuum Wave when it was still in the tier?
 

EV

Banned deucer.
The OU council revised the Baton Pass clause:
  • Limit 1 Baton Pass user; user must not have both a way to boost Speed and a way to boost other stats
After this is updated, you'll no longer be able to SmashPass with Bibarel or Quiver/TailPass with Scolipede. You will, however, be able to run Shell Smash + Baton Pass together; you just can't pass after you've acquired the boosts.
 

MAMP

MAMP!
The OU council revised the Baton Pass clause:
  • Limit 1 Baton Pass user; user must not have both a way to boost Speed and a way to boost other stats
After this is updated, you'll no longer be able to SmashPass with Bibarel or Quiver/TailPass with Scolipede. You will, however, be able to run Shell Smash + Baton Pass together; you just can't pass after you've acquired the boosts.
RIP GeoPass Toge ;_;
 

EV

Banned deucer.


After talking to TI, we're going to treat the Hoopa formes like Shaymin and allow them to transfer Psychic/Ghost/Dark between formes.

Also, Magician/White Herb/Psycho Boost??
 
Transferring all three STABs may actually allow Hoopa to become a much bigger threat than initially thought, since Dark Void allows Hoopa-reg (the better of the two, since it has the FakeSpeed immunity bar Kanga and Stout) to get an easy agility off, and not need to risk nearly as much trying to set up. The fact that between Psystrike and Shadow Ball it has very good neutral coverage, hitting most of the tier except for Tyranitar and pther less common Dark types.

This pokemon alone probably makes Stoutland far and ahead the best FakeSpeeder, and may be the nail in the coffin for stall, since Chansey is 2HKO'd by unboosted Psystrike, and nothing else can really handle that much raw special power (Dugtrio can trap and kill every Dark type, except for Icicle Spear Weavile).
 
It should not even need Dark-types disposed of since it has access to Focus Blast. I think Hoopa-Unbound might be worth running over its regular form becuase of the threat of physical or mixed sets and a little more Speed which lets it outspeed threats such as offensive Heatran.
 
I'm saying that to run Void + setup, you only get two slots for coverage, of which should be taken up by its STABs. And I don't like unbound as much, since it's extremely vulnerable to FakeSpeed, and threatening a physical set overall (not just Hoopa), is in a worse place than a special set because the meta so heavily favors physical attackers
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I'm saying that to run Void + setup, you only get two slots for coverage, of which should be taken up by its STABs. And I don't like unbound as much, since it's extremely vulnerable to FakeSpeed, and threatening a physical set overall (not just Hoopa), is in a worse place than a special set because the meta so heavily favors physical attackers
Just to note that the two most prevalent fake speeders have scrappy
 
Kanga is not a prevalent nor effective FakeSpeeder, both Ursaring and Braviary are better, since it just isn't strong enough to actually revenge kill most things without a boost. I do agree that Stoutland is the best FakeSpeeder in the tier (and has been since Diggersby got banned), and that the addition of a new, offensive oriented ghost with setup possibilities means that it should now be undisputedly better than others.
 
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Alright, after using Hoopa for a while, I'm beginning to fall in love! Hoopa, not Hoopa-U, to clarify. This thing walks over Stall, and it can even give slower balanced teams trouble. This thing has no switch ins whatsoever. The reason I consider it better in this role is mainly due to an immunity to Seismic Toss, which can always come in handy. Plus, it cock blocks Vaporeon, so you're not removing hazards anytime soon! A set of Psystrike / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / [Nasty Plot / Taunt] is what I'm running. This coverage is unresisted, while Hoopa-U's Psychic / Dark / Fighting is as well, but the former hits a few Pokemon for more SE damage, so that's something. Also, a neutrality versus automatically dying to nearly every U-turn is a great asset it brings. However, I'm going to have to disagree with Ellipse a bit. The most common Fake Out and Extreme Speed do actually come from Scrappy users, and will bring both down regardless. I guess it can take it from Ursaring, but Braviary outspeeds and KOes with Dragon Ascent, or ties with Unbound. But anyways. Here's the sets I've theorymonned, with the first set being the only one I've used.



Hoopa @ Life Orb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature
- Psystrike
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Taunt

Hoopa @ Leftovers
Ability: Magician
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse


Hoopa-Unbound @ White Herb
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psycho Boost
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Parting Shot

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Memento / Switcheroo
- Parting Shot
- Psystrike
- Dark Pulse

Overall, I think both forms are very cool!
 

EV

Banned deucer.
I theorymoned another Magician set in the OM room earlier: Power Herb Shadow Force. Maybe I'll test it soon.

I think both forme's disappointing Speed stats will keep them from overrunning other offensive teams. Fortunately the Unbound forme has STAB Sucker Punch if it wants, but that competes with other physical Dark STAB and encroaches on its great coverage options. Both formes could add Agility to a 3 attacks set however, but they both run into the same issues other setup faces: revenging from (Scrappy) FakeSpeed and Sableye priority status, namely.

Also I agree with unfixable about revenging non-boosting sets. Anything over 70 Speed with max investment threatens Hoopa, so a Ghost-typing isn't that relevant when it comes to FakeSpeed. The benefit to FakeSpeed, however, is the 1-2 punch (essentially a 120 BP STAB attack) before the target can move. I see Pursuit/Sucker trapping getting more use if Hoopa becomes a common feature in the metagame. Tyranitar can easily threaten any sets lacking Fighting coverage and just destroy it no problem. Even non-boosted Pursuit should kill if you run ScarfTar. Both aren't huge fans of Mega Scizor either, which resists Psychic and carries bulk to live unboosted hits and Gear Grind back. And who knows. Maybe Fuck Missile will show up more on Scizor to get the (unneeded) x4 hit against Hoopa-U. Scizor would be easier to handle in that case, so maybe Hoopa-U sticking around isn't such a bad thing ...
 
Can I get a quick rundown on the reason for the bans? Like, Sylveon obviously has Geomancy + Pixilate Boomburst and P-Z has Adaptability Boomburst, but what about the rest of the banned, specifically?
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Can I get a quick rundown on the reason for the bans? Like, Sylveon obviously has Geomancy + Pixilate Boomburst and P-Z has Adaptability Boomburst, but what about the rest of the banned, specifically?
EVs post: "To expand on point #1, here are explanations as to why we banned what we banned:
    • Sylveon - Pixilate-boosted Boomburst (140 BP STAB), Extreme Speed, setup with Shell Smash
    • Porygon-Z - Boomburst (140 BP STAB) backed up by Adaptability
    • Mega Altaria - see Sylveon and add better typing, Speed, and bulk
    • Mega Metagross - Tough Claws-boosted Heavy Slam (??? BP STAB), setup with Shift Gear, enormous bulk
    • Mega Lopunny - Scrappy Belly Drum Extreme Speed and STAB Drain Punch, amazing Speed
    • Mega Slowbro - Free setup without fear of crits, enormous bulk
    • Keldeo - Combination of Speed, Special Attack, and usually Water Spout (150 BP STAB at its strongest)
    • Diggersby - Huge Power-boosted FakeSpeed and setup
Most of the time it was a very strong STAB move that contributed to the ban (Sylveon, Porygon-Z, Mega Altaria, Metagross, Keldeo) and/or setup on steroids (all of them bar Keldeo who had a slow Calm Mind). These Pokemon were not banned for one trait; it was the combination of things that made them broken."
Ninja was broken in OU and now also has dark void and origin pulse, and kyu-b has setup and ice stab. Aero had dragon ascent and head smash.
 
I theorymoned another Magician set in the OM room earlier: Power Herb Shadow Force. Maybe I'll test it soon.

I think both forme's disappointing Speed stats will keep them from overrunning other offensive teams. Fortunately the Unbound forme has STAB Sucker Punch if it wants, but that competes with other physical Dark STAB and encroaches on its great coverage options. Both formes could add Agility to a 3 attacks set however, but they both run into the same issues other setup faces: revenging from (Scrappy) FakeSpeed and Sableye priority status, namely.

Also I agree with unfixable about revenging non-boosting sets. Anything over 70 Speed with max investment threatens Hoopa, so a Ghost-typing isn't that relevant when it comes to FakeSpeed. The benefit to FakeSpeed, however, is the 1-2 punch (essentially a 120 BP STAB attack) before the target can move. I see Pursuit/Sucker trapping getting more use if Hoopa becomes a common feature in the metagame. Tyranitar can easily threaten any sets lacking Fighting coverage and just destroy it no problem. Even non-boosted Pursuit should kill if you run ScarfTar. Both aren't huge fans of Mega Scizor either, which resists Psychic and carries bulk to live unboosted hits and Gear Grind back. And who knows. Maybe Fuck Missile will show up more on Scizor to get the (unneeded) x4 hit against Hoopa-U. Scizor would be easier to handle in that case, so maybe Hoopa-U sticking around isn't such a bad thing ...
If you want to crack offensive teams with Hoopa-U consider Agility. It should quickly outspeed anything that threatens it outside of priority. Hoopa-U already threatens every threat slower then it, Agility and coverage should scare fast threats.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
So now with the recent choosing of Option 2, allowing mons to either choose physical or status moves, but not both, I would like to propose this banlist:

Unban:
Sylveon
Porygon-Z
Mega Metagross
Mega Lopunny
Diggersby
Kyurem-Black

Quickban:
Mega Aerodactyl
Mega Slowbro
Keldeo

Suspect:
Mega Altaria
Darkrai

Just my opinion for what the banlist should look like. Any opinions?
 

Lcass4919

The Xatu Warrior
pory and possibly sylveon id argue are suspect worthy, pory and sylv both still retain insanely powerful boombursts, specs pory almost being able to 2hko spc def registeel with BOOMBURST. but id argue diggers should stay banned. since it loses nothing. (i mean, swords dance isn't that much worse then shell smash, when your "spam move" has the highest priority, and even then a lot of diggersby prefered 4 coverage.)
 

canno

formerly The Reptile
Looking at the current banlist and how they will roll with the new ruleset (ik Eevee hasn't updated the thread yet). Keep in mind this is all theorymon, as I haven't played with the new ruleset.

Probably should be suspected - it can still alternate between Shell Smash / Geomancy (using Hyper Voice as your STAB - just because its not Boomburst doesn't mean its not dumb), All-Out Offense (This set abuses Boomburst the most, and can either run Specs or coverage plate + Judgement. Since you don't really need coverage and you don't have coverage you can run moves such as ESpeed, Techno Blast for Soundproof, Explosion, or Rapid Spin), or Support (there are two sets here, although they're both support - Boomburst / Rapid Spin / Wishtect or Wish and Heal Bell, and also Lovely Kiss / Recover / Hyper Voice / Whirlwind). It still has too many options and I personally think its still broken (as Sableye has troubles managing it, since Sylveon can destroy Sableye ever if it gets Topsy-Turvy-ed at +2)

Not as versatile as Sylveon, but still hits hard with an Agility / NP / Boomburst (or Techno Blast for Soundproof) / Dark Pulse set or a Shell Smash set with Tri-Attack. Even All-Out Attacker with ESPeed could work - just because its not as versatile as Sylveon doesn't mean its not versatile. Unlike Sylveon this cannot directly threaten Sableye even after set-up. Worst than Sylveon imho, but should probably still be suspected.

Basically just see Sylveon, except that it can run ESpeed + Dragon Dance if it wants to since it naturally gets it and it can run Pixie FakeSpeed much better. This isn't even to mention that it can sweep on the physical side as well as the special side and has overall better coverage. The only thing Sylveon has over this is that Sylveon is not a Mega. Probably also still broken. Also the support set will always gets reliable recovery because of its access to Roost, so Rapid Spin / Boomburst / Fire Blast / Roost is definitely a strong set.

This should probably be suspected, but its not as crazy as it used to be. It now has 2 different sets - SG with Meteor / Zen / coverage or 4 attacks with Heavy Slam. SG has problems with coverage, and it doesn't have an insane STAB while 4 attacks can be revenged. I can see this getting suspected, but its doesn't seem like top priority tbh. It might not seem like it changed much, but Shift Gear is much more manageable now that its STAB move isn't ridiculous.

Didn't really change, honestly. Its still basically the best FakeSpeeder in the game - all that happened is that SD can no longer run ESpeed, but a set of Fake Out / ExtremeSpeed / HJK / PuP can basically achieve similar things if played right. I think its lower priority, but it didn't change much and the current meta is probably weaker all-round so probably going to get the ax

iirc this was borderline banned before, but all things considering it didn't change at all. It can still use Stored Power + stupid set-up move like Calm Mind or Amnesia, which is basically what it used to do. It can't Cosmic + Stored Power anymore but Amnesia or Calm Mind + Stored Power is very similar. I don't know if this is broken or not - we'll have to wait and see

I...never really understood why this was banned. Sure, Water Spout is crazy powerful but its not like Keldeo is the only thing that has crazy power in the meta. Plus, Water Spout is all it got - everything else is useless to it. I don't play stall, but I think stall can handle it - hell its not even the most threatening stall breaker (I'm looking at you, Thundy-I) as once it gets worn down it loses its insane power and becomes normal Keldeo. Meanwhile Offense has basically the same match-up it used to have if not better because of FakeSpeed. I mean I can see people wanting it banned but this is one of the bans that I just simply didn't understand. At the very least I don't think its high priority - at least not compared to Sylveon and Altaria.

Probably the most controversial ban (maybe second most next to Mega Bro), I do think that Diggs will get the ax again, but here's to hoping! Set-up sets are weaker but imho they weren't that great to begin with - the best set-up set (imho) was always SD, which it can still do just fine. FakeSpeed is basically unchanged, except now you can't run like Lovely Kiss and stuff. Maybe its nerfed enough to be allowed again? Only time will tell.
Absolutely no change, so I don't see how this is going to stick around.

Probably still broken. The biggest change to it is that Dragon Dance sets cannot use Physical Ice STAB, but honestly I don't think that's enough of a drawback - DD can still wreck even without Ice STAB, while all of the all-out attacker sets are still ridiculous. Remove Kyurem-B.

If we're to talk about what the banlist would be, (imho) it will probably look exactly the same, with maybe some things removed from it and potentially some more added to it (I still think Mega Scizor is busted, even without Shift Gear + Gear Grind, but that's for another post, and I can see Thundy-I getting the ban hammer in the future). Oh, and flinch items should remained banned obviously. This is just theorymon though - I'm excited to see what will actually happen these up-coming months!

EDIT: Oh, as for unbans - I really don't think we should be unbanning anything, at least not until much later (which is good, because we're starting with OU banlist again, but still)
 
This was a post I had made in the council convo in favor of unbanning Slowbronite a month ago, and much of its reasoning can be used as a case to not keep Mega Slowbro on the initial banlist as it loses its most threatening set, Stored Power + Cosmic Power (Which was never even broken in the first place imo):
I know there's discussion about the new alternatives going on and whatnot and other than that there are suspects such as Scizor and Darkrai that need looking at, but this is something that I need thinks to be addressed: The Slowbronite ban.


To first begin making my point, I'm going to start the axiom that Mega Slowbro's OU sets are not broken in STABmons by virtue of metagame changes. This is not a particularly difficult statement to believe, considering that even if the metagame became biased in a way that Slowbro's counters became less viable, the increase in power in the metagame should be more than enough to keep it in check regardless.

Now we will move on to what Slowbro gains and why they don't break it. Slowbro only gains a few significant things in STABmons: Psystrike, Origin Pulse, Cosmic Power, and Stored Power.


Psystrike: Psystrike is a nice addition, being 125% of the power of Psyshock. It helps Slowbro take down special walls such as Chansey with additional efficiency, and is a helpful moves in general. However, considering the increases in attack power other types get, with moves such as Boomburst, V-Create, Bolt Strike, Precipice Blades, and many more, Psystrike's additional power is nothing new to STABmons and most certainly not enough to make Slowbro broken.

Origin Pulse: A significant power boost over Scald to be sure, but loses the burn chance, making it a questionable trade-off in my opinion. Has some niches on the offensive set though.

Cosmic Power: Cosmic Power is an interesting addition that, in a way, merges Barrier and Calm Mind, but now means that Slowbro cannot increase its damage output and is very easy to take advantage of due to this. Because of this, it needs to be used with our next move:

Stored Power: And here we have the only possible move that could make Slowbro broken, Stored Power. Stored Power is a significant addition to Slowbro's double dance set, and very lethal. However, Stored Power has one very significant flaw: as an attacking type, it has a very prominent immunity in Dark, and as such, cannot be run as a mono attacking type to much degree of viability. This means that to abuse Stored Power, Slowbro must forego Iron Defense and must run Scald. Doing this, however, means that Mega Slowbro will need to invest in physical bulk again (which it didn't need to do with Iron Defense), and as such, even with Calm Mind boosts, takes too much from special attacking moves, meaning Pokemon such as Thundurus and Sceptile can force it out. Something that avoids both of these issues however is Cosmic Power, but with this Slowbro cannot increase its special attack, and is very much set-up bait given Stored Power is quite weak.


So, neither of these things necessarily break Slowbro.
BUT KLANG! Just because a move might not break something individually doesn't mean it's not broken! It's how the moves interact with each other and the Pokemon that makes the Pokemon broken!
You have a point, so I'm going to look at some specific Slowbro sets that are arguably broken and list reasons why they are not.


Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Iron Defense
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power

As I have explained above, this set struggles primarily because it is completely and utterly walled by Dark types. However, in addition to this, Stored Power is very weak to begin with, meaning that it is very easy to switch to an appropriate counter and take advantage of Slowbro. Anything with Toxic, for example, will instantly put this set out of commission given Slowbro can't really fight back against the Toxic user, or anything with moves such as Taunt or Encore can instantly take advantage of the situation. Grass types with Seed Flare also have a field day with this set in general, or others such as Serperior can use Slowbro as set-up bait. Speaking of Grass types, any sleep user will outspeed Slowbro and put it out of commission. Transform Chansey also gives this set literal hell.


Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Stored Power

Having no Barrier, Slowbro needs to opt for a physically defensive spread here, and for that it dearly pays the price. At +1 special defense but no EVs it is simply not bulky enough to take hits from strong Electric and Grass types:

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 8 SpD Mega Slowbro: 330-393 (83.7 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. +1 252 HP / 8 SpD Mega Slowbro: 236-278 (59.8 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 8 SpD Mega Slowbro: 242-286 (61.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 8 SpD Mega Slowbro: 216-254 (54.8 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Note this is no Specs, Nasty Plot, or Life Orb boost)
252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Boomburst vs. +1 252 HP / 8 SpD Mega Slowbro: 270-318 (68.5 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 8 SpD Mega Slowbro: 283-335 (71.8 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think that's enough calcs to demonstrate how easy it is to split this thing with a boost. In addition, much like the other set, this is still weak to Toxic, and Chansey with Transform shits on this. For the most part, it is also pretty much similar to its OU set.


Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Cosmic Power
- Stored Power
- Scald

The most interesting set Slowbro can run in STABmons, and probably its best. Toxic once again stops this thing cold, but more importantly, much like the first set, this is weak initially, and is thus easily taken advantage of in the beginning of the game. Grass types with Seed Flare and Serperior most notably take advantage of this, and if those aren't your thing, Ferrothorn's Leech Seed makes this variant of Slowbro far easier to beat. Sableye is very notable and can simply Topsy-Turvy this whenever it desires despite taking a fair amount from Scald, meaning it can check it a few times. Standard SubCM Latias takes on this set with impunity, and even uninvested isn't even 2HKO'd by max power Stored Power. In general this set is hard to take on for HO teams, but it is whittled down by hazards which helps them, and is not entirely different in function to the OU Double Dance set with Scald - it is stronger in theory than in practice.



Slowbro @ Slowbronite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Origin Pulse
- Psystrike
- Fire Blast

This is almost identical to the OU set and is only a bit stronger (like everything else in STABmons...), and going with our initial axiom it thus is not broken. Only putting this here since apparently word used it as one of the reasons it was banworthy in the thread.


From my understanding, the only reason Mega Slowbro was ever banned was word, who I believe was wrong in this case.
Eevee General: he's why I reversed the DNB
tl;dr it does pretty much the exact same thing it does in OU + Stored Power so it really shouldn't be broken here
 
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