Your only option pretty much is to boost up alongside it with dark pulse I'm pretty sure.
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Resource Stall V2 (Week #6 Mega Pidgeot)
- Thread starter Ramses
- Start date
- Status
The team actually has various ways in dealing with MSableye itself. Amoongus has access to Clear Smog and Chansey can attempt to Stall it out since it has Heal Bell and immense bulk. If it's packing Will-O which it usually does Heal Bell can remedy it, but I'd advise you use it sparingly because of it's low PP. Quagsire also it a pretty neat check to it and attempt to burn it with Scald, but it's a little shaky considering burn wear you down quickly. Like littlelucario said boosting alongside it works, but Speed Ties will be the Devil and you'd honestly be better off trying to wear it down through your other teammates.
First off let's make this relevant to the current topic, I know he's been said but I want to talk about Mega Venusaur as an emergency check to Breloom. 0 SpA Sludge Bomb OHKOs Breloom, whereas Poison Heal Breloom can only 2HKO Venusaur at +2. Facade does a lot however, about 75%, so you got to be careful and make sure you've got a plan that doesn't involve Venusaur for the rest of the match because in the current state of the ladder as I've experienced it, you won't be getting that HP back for free. Amoonguss kind of works as well if Breloom's had some prior damage, but it can't OHKO and your forced to switch out to get the Regenerator recovery after taking the hit. Getting rid of the boost is pretty nice though, makes life a lot easier. The two are serviceable answers but they are a little shaky.
Main reason why I wanted to comment however is that the Status Absorbers part of the OP is pretty lean. Forgive me if there's a good reason for this which I've missed. I was thinking, could we add Natural Cure mons like Celebi, Chansey and Starmie and Magic Guard mons like Reuniclus and Clefable, as well as Gliscor? Another thing I noticed is that Blissey gets almost no love in the OP. Again if there's a reason for this point at me and laugh, but hey, it beats Gengar. Blissey could fit in Special Walls of course, Status Absorbers and I suppose it is a Stealth Rock user but it's kind of crap at that, let's be real.
But yeah, just a couple of thoughts.
Main reason why I wanted to comment however is that the Status Absorbers part of the OP is pretty lean. Forgive me if there's a good reason for this which I've missed. I was thinking, could we add Natural Cure mons like Celebi, Chansey and Starmie and Magic Guard mons like Reuniclus and Clefable, as well as Gliscor? Another thing I noticed is that Blissey gets almost no love in the OP. Again if there's a reason for this point at me and laugh, but hey, it beats Gengar. Blissey could fit in Special Walls of course, Status Absorbers and I suppose it is a Stealth Rock user but it's kind of crap at that, let's be real.
But yeah, just a couple of thoughts.
Mixed Defensive Unaware is solid but it feels like it only checks a lot of special set-up sweepers, especially if rocks/Sand are up and you don't have the HP to CM and Wish/Moonlight up (and Moonlight gets hurt by Sand, which also adds chip damage.
KidMagic, I believe we have something to fear: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-round-5-run-the-jewels.3556762/#post-6537446
Slightly off-topic but yesterday i got demolished by a sun-team sporting a fast life-orb venu using this set: growth/giga/sludge/hp fire.
Now this thing just destroyed me lol it got up to +2 in the sun but i managed to get a burn on it so i figured chansey could stall it out with stoss + burns + recoil but no it managed to outheal my damage and destroyed my team 6-0. I've seen other sun venu teams and not had a problem with them. Its not something i prepare for but with that coverage there is like 2 mons it cant take down, heatran and like dragagle which is about it. How do you deal with this thing without preparing for it and why would you prepare for it when its so rare thats the problem. Unless you have t-wave on chansey its just going to boost up and kill everything
Now this thing just destroyed me lol it got up to +2 in the sun but i managed to get a burn on it so i figured chansey could stall it out with stoss + burns + recoil but no it managed to outheal my damage and destroyed my team 6-0. I've seen other sun venu teams and not had a problem with them. Its not something i prepare for but with that coverage there is like 2 mons it cant take down, heatran and like dragagle which is about it. How do you deal with this thing without preparing for it and why would you prepare for it when its so rare thats the problem. Unless you have t-wave on chansey its just going to boost up and kill everything
is not is you the sablenite ? :/
I don't play much Stall, but let me take a crack at this.
1. Pidgeot's immunity to Spikes mean Hazard Stacking isn't quite as lucrative despite its SR weakness, and in spite of a lack of held item, 135 SpA backed by Base 120 Hurricane is a hard hit even before it starts boosting thanks to Flying's very good neutral coverage, not to mention the issue of potential Boosting and its ability to heal with Roost. Refresh also means Pidgeot can't be stopped with Emergency Status, on top of beating most Status users (no Spore or Sleep Power user gets a safe switch), while its Special lean means neither burns nor Unaware users can stop it once it gets going if there are any Hazard layers on the field.
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 201-237 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 262-309 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And while not reliable, Hurricane still has that 30% confuse chance, which can make or break a match by giving it an extra set up turn if it gets really lucky. While hard to reach, at +4 it can 2HKO Chansey with SR, which is the absolute bulkiest thing Stall will have to eat the hit in most cases.
+4 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 282-333 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+4 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+4 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 249-294 (74.5 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
2. To deal with Pidgeot, react to it immediately with Flying Resists or Walls like Chansey. While Pidgeot has ways around Status, boosting itself, and Recovery, it can't use all of those in a single turn, and mono-coverage, even Flying, is something a Stall team should pack resistances/checks for. With a bit of prior damage and/or some EV creeping, SpD Heatran can 2HKO Pidgeot or Phaze it out with Roar if it tries to Boost, while Pidgeot needs to reach +3 to get a 2HKO with SR.
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 129-153 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 168-198 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Phazing in general is usually the best answer to Pidgeot if it boosts noticeably: Skarmory with Sturdy intact can emergency Whirlwind it, and up until +4 is safe without hazards
+4 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 249-294 (74.5 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
While not equipped to deal with Pidgeot after much Boosting, Ferrothorn can deal a minimum 60% with the standard Utility set using Gyro Ball, forcing Pidgeot to recover on its next turn which can be exploited to status it, Phaze it out, or go for the kill with a priority user
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 211-249 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 130-154 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
96+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 130-154 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Pidgeot on the whole is a mon that has ways around passive damage, but has issues with taking direct attacks since its overall bulk is mediocre, and vulnerability to SR makes getting phazed very punishing to it. So Tanks that can eat a +1 Hurricane make good answers to it, such as Zapdos or certain Heatran sets, which never have to deal with miss Shenanigans thanks to Pidgeot's own No Guard.
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 282-332 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Mega Pidgeot on the whole is a Snowball Pokemon: It's a bit troublesome but manageable as long as you get it early on, but the longer you take, the harder it becomes to deal with it.
1. Pidgeot's immunity to Spikes mean Hazard Stacking isn't quite as lucrative despite its SR weakness, and in spite of a lack of held item, 135 SpA backed by Base 120 Hurricane is a hard hit even before it starts boosting thanks to Flying's very good neutral coverage, not to mention the issue of potential Boosting and its ability to heal with Roost. Refresh also means Pidgeot can't be stopped with Emergency Status, on top of beating most Status users (no Spore or Sleep Power user gets a safe switch), while its Special lean means neither burns nor Unaware users can stop it once it gets going if there are any Hazard layers on the field.
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Clefable: 201-237 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 262-309 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And while not reliable, Hurricane still has that 30% confuse chance, which can make or break a match by giving it an extra set up turn if it gets really lucky. While hard to reach, at +4 it can 2HKO Chansey with SR, which is the absolute bulkiest thing Stall will have to eat the hit in most cases.
+4 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 282-333 (43.9 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+4 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+4 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 249-294 (74.5 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
2. To deal with Pidgeot, react to it immediately with Flying Resists or Walls like Chansey. While Pidgeot has ways around Status, boosting itself, and Recovery, it can't use all of those in a single turn, and mono-coverage, even Flying, is something a Stall team should pack resistances/checks for. With a bit of prior damage and/or some EV creeping, SpD Heatran can 2HKO Pidgeot or Phaze it out with Roar if it tries to Boost, while Pidgeot needs to reach +3 to get a 2HKO with SR.
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 129-153 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 168-198 (43.6 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Phazing in general is usually the best answer to Pidgeot if it boosts noticeably: Skarmory with Sturdy intact can emergency Whirlwind it, and up until +4 is safe without hazards
+4 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 249-294 (74.5 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
While not equipped to deal with Pidgeot after much Boosting, Ferrothorn can deal a minimum 60% with the standard Utility set using Gyro Ball, forcing Pidgeot to recover on its next turn which can be exploited to status it, Phaze it out, or go for the kill with a priority user
+1 252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 211-249 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 130-154 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
96+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 130-154 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Pidgeot on the whole is a mon that has ways around passive damage, but has issues with taking direct attacks since its overall bulk is mediocre, and vulnerability to SR makes getting phazed very punishing to it. So Tanks that can eat a +1 Hurricane make good answers to it, such as Zapdos or certain Heatran sets, which never have to deal with miss Shenanigans thanks to Pidgeot's own No Guard.
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 282-332 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
Mega Pidgeot on the whole is a Snowball Pokemon: It's a bit troublesome but manageable as long as you get it early on, but the longer you take, the harder it becomes to deal with it.
elecs in general are a really good stop to mega pidgeot
i've been trying raikou on stall, with wish support, which also acts as the hardest manaphy stop ever. it also works to stop mega pidgeot:
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 62-73 (19.3 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
stall doesn't really mind getting some momentum back through volt switch too
i've been trying raikou on stall, with wish support, which also acts as the hardest manaphy stop ever. it also works to stop mega pidgeot:
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 62-73 (19.3 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO
stall doesn't really mind getting some momentum back through volt switch too
Stallbreaker Mega Pidgeot is a threat to stall because it is not a very commonly used pokemon, and as such, it is not very often prepared for when building stall, if at all. I know that for myself I generally don't focus on pokemon below B+ rank on the viability rankings because I think that doing so is too constricting on teambuilding, and as a result your teams will not be able to properly handle the pokemon that do have a higher usage. Mega Pidgeot further takes advantage of this fact by it's moveset combined with it being a mega. The mega aspect of a stallbreaker like Mega Pidgeot helps it out against stall teams that use Gothitelle because unlike other common stallbreakers, Mega Pidgeot cannot be crippled by Gothitelle. Gothitelle is not able to Trick Mega Pidgeot because it is a mega, it also cannot attempt to beat it with Thunder Wave because Mega Pidgeot would be able to PP stall Gothitelle out with Refresh, which has 32 PP (Even though Thunder Wave also has 32 PP, Mega Pidgeot does not need to heal off its status every time because it is playing against a slower team that can't OHKO it anyways, and the status actually does not matter too much). However, many people forgo Mega Pidgeot for Tornadus-Therian, which somewhat outclasses it because it has access to a larger variety of stallbreaking moves (Knock Off, U-Turn, coverage), and it does not take up the mega slot for a team. Mega Pidgeot is, however, able to heal off its status and restore HP with Refresh and Roost respectively, which Tornadus-Therian lacks.
highschooldropout (Zapdos) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
- Discharge
- Roost
- Defog
- Heat Wave
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 Spe
Bold Nature
- Discharge
- Roost
- Defog
- Heat Wave
Physically defensive Zapdos is one of the more reliable counters to stallbreaker Mega Pidgeot. With its electric/flying typing, Zapdos is able to wall Mega Pidgeot with ease. There is not much that I can say here other than provide calcs.
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 101-119 (26.3 - 31%) -- 12.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 254-300 (82.7 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not only does Zapdos counter stallbreaker Mega Pidgeot, but it also provides other valuable assets to Stall teams. Zapdos supports teams with hazard support via Defog, a rather hard role to fit on stall teams with Mega Sableye out of the meta. Zapdos is a great Defog user because it can remove hazards reliably from Hippowdon, Defensive Landorus-T, Klefki, Tankchomp, and Ferrothorn (5 very common hazard setters in ou with the absence of Mega Sableye). Zapdos almost replaces Mega Sableye in this regard. With its ability pressure, Zapdos, unlike other Defog users, is able to PP stall out Stealth Rock users throughout the course of a game, putting the team with Zapdos at an advantage in the hazard war. Zapdos also provides stall teams with a good anti-stall breaker mon. Commonly used mons like Tornadus-Therian (one of the more threatening mons to stall out there), Mega Pinsir, Mega Scizor, Togekiss, and, of course, Mega Pidgeot are all walled by Zapdos (these are just some of the more commonly recognized stallbreaking mons that Zapdos beats)
I would also like to start a new discussion; what are your thoughts on the metagame for stall/semi-stall with Mega Sableye removed from Overused?
I, for one, really enjoy the metagame for stall with Mega Sableye gone. More-so than I do with it in the tier. Now before you accuse me of being a traitor to the playstyle we all hold dear, hear me out:
1. Mega Sableye makes team matchup worse for stall
This point is actually pretty obvious if you think about it. Also, to clarify, I am talking about stall v stall matchup. Anyways, Mega Sableye makes matchup worse for all stall teams because it takes away stall's main way of beating other teams: pressuring switches with hazards. Mega Sableye completely takes away from this element of stall, and I'd argue that taking away the ability of stall to get up hazards is more damaging to the playstyle as a whole than is preventing other stall teams from getting hazards up (Keep in mind, Mega Sableye is not the only way for stall to control hazards. Not at all). Taking away the hazards element of stall v stall completely turns the battle into a game of "who is the better person at pp stalling"; there is no element of hazards, pressure, or wearing down stall teams when they both have Mega Sableye. If the game is not decided by who is the better PP staller, it will be decided by the winner of the Calm Mind war between the two Mega Sableyes on the teams. Not only does Mega Sableye create 50/50's, but it also forces you to run Mega Sableye if you want to compete with other stall teams utilizing Mega Sableye (I believe that this is the reason that Mega Sableye has become the "face of stall"). Because a large majority of the stall teams are running Mega Sableye, and the teams are forced to run similar builds, a lot of the time these battles will not involve much skill, but I will elaborate on this point later. One cannot simply throw on a Talonflame, Heatran, or Clefable and expect to beat Mega Sableye stall either. Yes, you can counter it, but you will not be rewarded for forcing it out (because of hazards), like you would against any team lacking Mega Sableye.
2. With Mega Sableye gone, stall is able to use a much larger variety of teams/mons
This point may at first seem inaccurate, but Mega Sableye does, in fact, increase matchup between stall teams. The underlying factor here is the commonly used phrase, "If you can't beat them, join them". This applies to Mega Sableye because if you are playing stall, you have no reason to use a stall team without Mega Sableye, and you are actually at a disadvantage if you are not using Mega Sableye stall (with it in the meta). Stall teams lacking Mega Sableye have no real way of breaking through stall teams carrying Mega Sableye. Pressuring them with hazards is not really an option, so the team lacking Mega Sableye is really at a disadvantage. In most cases, if you weren't using Mega Sableye, you were losing to Mega Sableye (back to the team matchup issue). As such, I have found that with Mega Sableye gone, I am much more free when building stall and have more room to fit on anti-stallbreakers/anti-wallbreakers to make my stall teams better. The new potential mega pokemon that are now able to be run on stall with Mega Sableye gone really help against common stallbreaking mons. Mega Scizor beats Gengar, Mega Gardevor, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Kyurem-B, and Alakazam, very common threatening mons to stall in general; Mega Venusaur beats Manaphy, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Serperior, Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, Clefable, Rotom-W, and Diggersby; Mega Slowbro beats Mega Medicham, Kyurem-B, Azumarill, Mega Charizard X, Keldeo, Diggersby, Mega Medicham, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Heatran, Talonflame, and Mega Metagross; Mega Charizard X beats Clefable, Thundurus, Mew, Mega Scizor, Bisharp, Celebi, and Jirachi; Mega Altaria beats Rotom-W, Latios, Keldeo, Garchomp, Mega Charizard Y, Breloom, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Heracross. More exist, but I do not feel like listing out stallbreakers/wallbreakers that they beat: Mega Latias, Mega Aggron, Mega Gyarados, Mega Swampert, and Mega Aerodactyl. These are all mega pokemon that were at a disadvantage running before with Mega Sableye in the metagame.
3. Banning Mega Sableye adds more skill to the playstyle
This may be a bit biased/opinionated, but in my experience, playing stall without Mega Sableye is much more consistent (with it gone from the tier, of course). Mega Sableye takes away from the skill element with playing against hazards because of its ability, stats, and typing. There are only 4 mons in the tier that can reliably set up rocks against Mega Sableye However, I do see how you can make a point against this considering that they are only about 7 offensive/non-passive mons that can set up rocks for offense in OU. Although this point is irrelevant for now, as we are discussing stall in this thread. The only mons on stall that can "reliably" get up rocks against Mega Sableye or Clefable and Stallbreaker Heatran (this also adds to the point made earlier that stall makes stall very limited in the teams that can be used). Because of this, stall utilizing Mega Sableye (which, keep in mind, was on about 90% of stall teams during the suspect test) lacks the important skill element that comes from controlling and playing with hazards. Hazards are one of, if not the most important elements that stall teams revolve around. Many do not think of stall teams having a win condition; however, a team lacking a win condition would never really win, so stall must have some type of win condition. The win condition on stall comes from being able to pressure the opposing team with hazards, chip damage, and status (sometimes a set-up sweeper is used) while walling the team at the same time. One can see from this that yes, Mega Sableye helps the win condition of stall team's containing it by preventing hazards, helping the team with Mega Sableye to wall the other team. However, stall teams lacking Mega Sableye are negatively impacted by Mega Sableye because they cannot achieve the first part of stall's win condition: pressure upon the other team. The overall effect of this is unhealthy for stall because this leads to Mega Sableye being run on every stall team, which in turn eliminates the variety of stall (stall benefits from variety because it is allowed to better prepare for stallbreakers and wallbreakers), and ultimately causes stall teams to be weaker as a whole.
I hope you all will have an open mind when deciding on this suspect and will consider what I have said here.
EDIT: Well, this ended up being a rant on why Mega Sableye is bad for stall as a playstyle, not originally the intention I had...
I would still like to hear your thoughts on stall and Mega Sableye, but I would appreciate it if you all focused more on this question: "How does stall function in OU with the absence of Mega Sableye (and eventually Gothitelle)?"
I, for one, really enjoy the metagame for stall with Mega Sableye gone. More-so than I do with it in the tier. Now before you accuse me of being a traitor to the playstyle we all hold dear, hear me out:
1. Mega Sableye makes team matchup worse for stall
This point is actually pretty obvious if you think about it. Also, to clarify, I am talking about stall v stall matchup. Anyways, Mega Sableye makes matchup worse for all stall teams because it takes away stall's main way of beating other teams: pressuring switches with hazards. Mega Sableye completely takes away from this element of stall, and I'd argue that taking away the ability of stall to get up hazards is more damaging to the playstyle as a whole than is preventing other stall teams from getting hazards up (Keep in mind, Mega Sableye is not the only way for stall to control hazards. Not at all). Taking away the hazards element of stall v stall completely turns the battle into a game of "who is the better person at pp stalling"; there is no element of hazards, pressure, or wearing down stall teams when they both have Mega Sableye. If the game is not decided by who is the better PP staller, it will be decided by the winner of the Calm Mind war between the two Mega Sableyes on the teams. Not only does Mega Sableye create 50/50's, but it also forces you to run Mega Sableye if you want to compete with other stall teams utilizing Mega Sableye (I believe that this is the reason that Mega Sableye has become the "face of stall"). Because a large majority of the stall teams are running Mega Sableye, and the teams are forced to run similar builds, a lot of the time these battles will not involve much skill, but I will elaborate on this point later. One cannot simply throw on a Talonflame, Heatran, or Clefable and expect to beat Mega Sableye stall either. Yes, you can counter it, but you will not be rewarded for forcing it out (because of hazards), like you would against any team lacking Mega Sableye.
2. With Mega Sableye gone, stall is able to use a much larger variety of teams/mons
This point may at first seem inaccurate, but Mega Sableye does, in fact, increase matchup between stall teams. The underlying factor here is the commonly used phrase, "If you can't beat them, join them". This applies to Mega Sableye because if you are playing stall, you have no reason to use a stall team without Mega Sableye, and you are actually at a disadvantage if you are not using Mega Sableye stall (with it in the meta). Stall teams lacking Mega Sableye have no real way of breaking through stall teams carrying Mega Sableye. Pressuring them with hazards is not really an option, so the team lacking Mega Sableye is really at a disadvantage. In most cases, if you weren't using Mega Sableye, you were losing to Mega Sableye (back to the team matchup issue). As such, I have found that with Mega Sableye gone, I am much more free when building stall and have more room to fit on anti-stallbreakers/anti-wallbreakers to make my stall teams better. The new potential mega pokemon that are now able to be run on stall with Mega Sableye gone really help against common stallbreaking mons. Mega Scizor beats Gengar, Mega Gardevor, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Kyurem-B, and Alakazam, very common threatening mons to stall in general; Mega Venusaur beats Manaphy, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Serperior, Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, Clefable, Rotom-W, and Diggersby; Mega Slowbro beats Mega Medicham, Kyurem-B, Azumarill, Mega Charizard X, Keldeo, Diggersby, Mega Medicham, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Heatran, Talonflame, and Mega Metagross; Mega Charizard X beats Clefable, Thundurus, Mew, Mega Scizor, Bisharp, Celebi, and Jirachi; Mega Altaria beats Rotom-W, Latios, Keldeo, Garchomp, Mega Charizard Y, Breloom, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Heracross. More exist, but I do not feel like listing out stallbreakers/wallbreakers that they beat: Mega Latias, Mega Aggron, Mega Gyarados, Mega Swampert, and Mega Aerodactyl. These are all mega pokemon that were at a disadvantage running before with Mega Sableye in the metagame.
3. Banning Mega Sableye adds more skill to the playstyle
This may be a bit biased/opinionated, but in my experience, playing stall without Mega Sableye is much more consistent (with it gone from the tier, of course). Mega Sableye takes away from the skill element with playing against hazards because of its ability, stats, and typing. There are only 4 mons in the tier that can reliably set up rocks against Mega Sableye However, I do see how you can make a point against this considering that they are only about 7 offensive/non-passive mons that can set up rocks for offense in OU. Although this point is irrelevant for now, as we are discussing stall in this thread. The only mons on stall that can "reliably" get up rocks against Mega Sableye or Clefable and Stallbreaker Heatran (this also adds to the point made earlier that stall makes stall very limited in the teams that can be used). Because of this, stall utilizing Mega Sableye (which, keep in mind, was on about 90% of stall teams during the suspect test) lacks the important skill element that comes from controlling and playing with hazards. Hazards are one of, if not the most important elements that stall teams revolve around. Many do not think of stall teams having a win condition; however, a team lacking a win condition would never really win, so stall must have some type of win condition. The win condition on stall comes from being able to pressure the opposing team with hazards, chip damage, and status (sometimes a set-up sweeper is used) while walling the team at the same time. One can see from this that yes, Mega Sableye helps the win condition of stall team's containing it by preventing hazards, helping the team with Mega Sableye to wall the other team. However, stall teams lacking Mega Sableye are negatively impacted by Mega Sableye because they cannot achieve the first part of stall's win condition: pressure upon the other team. The overall effect of this is unhealthy for stall because this leads to Mega Sableye being run on every stall team, which in turn eliminates the variety of stall (stall benefits from variety because it is allowed to better prepare for stallbreakers and wallbreakers), and ultimately causes stall teams to be weaker as a whole.
I hope you all will have an open mind when deciding on this suspect and will consider what I have said here.
EDIT: Well, this ended up being a rant on why Mega Sableye is bad for stall as a playstyle, not originally the intention I had...
I would still like to hear your thoughts on stall and Mega Sableye, but I would appreciate it if you all focused more on this question: "How does stall function in OU with the absence of Mega Sableye (and eventually Gothitelle)?"
Actually I've just used the same stall team for both ladders, with one minor change only because of the suspect: My team is M-Altairia (King DDD), Excadrill (SpD), Infernape, Rotom-W, Tornadous-T, and Mew. Due to the suspect I replaced Mew w/ Gothitelle just to see how broken it is, and mew seems more consistent really. Keep Sableye alive because of it helps with the new toys of ORAS (surviving one dark pulse from Hoopa-U makes all the difference) and can be broken past relatively easily. (Altairia scares it out, and Excadrill Toxic's it for me. Get creative, its easy to do, but Shadow Tag does remove all the counters so that is the real problem. in the end you have no reason not to use a fairy type or fire type.I would also like to start a new discussion; what are your thoughts on the metagame for stall/semi-stall with Mega Sableye removed from Overused?
I, for one, really enjoy the metagame for stall with Mega Sableye gone. More-so than I do with it in the tier. Now before you accuse me of being a traitor to the playstyle we all hold dear, hear me out:
1. Mega Sableye makes team matchup worse for stall
This point is actually pretty obvious if you think about it. Also, to clarify, I am talking about stall v stall matchup. Anyways, Mega Sableye makes matchup worse for all stall teams because it takes away stall's main way of beating other teams: pressuring switches with hazards. Mega Sableye completely takes away from this element of stall, and I'd argue that taking away the ability of stall to get up hazards is more damaging to the playstyle as a whole than is preventing other stall teams from getting hazards up (Keep in mind, Mega Sableye is not the only way for stall to control hazards. Not at all). Taking away the hazards element of stall v stall completely turns the battle into a game of "who is the better person at pp stalling"; there is no element of hazards, pressure, or wearing down stall teams when they both have Mega Sableye. If the game is not decided by who is the better PP staller, it will be decided by the winner of the Calm Mind war between the two Mega Sableyes on the teams. Not only does Mega Sableye create 50/50's, but it also forces you to run Mega Sableye if you want to compete with other stall teams utilizing Mega Sableye (I believe that this is the reason that Mega Sableye has become the "face of stall"). Because a large majority of the stall teams are running Mega Sableye, and the teams are forced to run similar builds, a lot of the time these battles will not involve much skill, but I will elaborate on this point later. One cannot simply throw on a Talonflame, Heatran, or Clefable and expect to beat Mega Sableye stall either. Yes, you can counter it, but you will not be rewarded for forcing it out (because of hazards), like you would against any team lacking Mega Sableye.
2. With Mega Sableye gone, stall is able to use a much larger variety of teams/mons
This point may at first seem inaccurate, but Mega Sableye does, in fact, increase matchup between stall teams. The underlying factor here is the commonly used phrase, "If you can't beat them, join them". This applies to Mega Sableye because if you are playing stall, you have no reason to use a stall team without Mega Sableye, and you are actually at a disadvantage if you are not using Mega Sableye stall (with it in the meta). Stall teams lacking Mega Sableye have no real way of breaking through stall teams carrying Mega Sableye. Pressuring them with hazards is not really an option, so the team lacking Mega Sableye is really at a disadvantage. In most cases, if you weren't using Mega Sableye, you were losing to Mega Sableye (back to the team matchup issue). As such, I have found that with Mega Sableye gone, I am much more free when building stall and have more room to fit on anti-stallbreakers/anti-wallbreakers to make my stall teams better. The new potential mega pokemon that are now able to be run on stall with Mega Sableye gone really help against common stallbreaking mons. Mega Scizor beats Gengar, Mega Gardevor, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Mega Metagross, Kyurem-B, and Alakazam, very common threatening mons to stall in general; Mega Venusaur beats Manaphy, Azumarill, Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, Serperior, Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, Clefable, Rotom-W, and Diggersby; Mega Slowbro beats Mega Medicham, Kyurem-B, Azumarill, Mega Charizard X, Keldeo, Diggersby, Mega Medicham, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Heatran, Talonflame, and Mega Metagross; Mega Charizard X beats Clefable, Thundurus, Mew, Mega Scizor, Bisharp, Celebi, and Jirachi; Mega Altaria beats Rotom-W, Latios, Keldeo, Garchomp, Mega Charizard Y, Breloom, Mega Gyarados, and Mega Heracross. More exist, but I do not feel like listing out stallbreakers/wallbreakers that they beat: Mega Latias, Mega Aggron, Mega Gyarados, Mega Swampert, and Mega Aerodactyl. These are all mega pokemon that were at a disadvantage running before with Mega Sableye in the metagame.
The overall effect of this is unhealthy for stall because this leads to Mega Sableye being run on every stall team, which in turn eliminates the variety of stall (stall benefits from variety because it is allowed to better prepare for stallbreakers and wallbreakers), and ultimately causes stall teams to be weaker as a whole.
I hope you all will have an open mind when deciding on this suspect and will consider what I have said here.
EDIT: Well, this ended up being a rant on why Mega Sableye is bad for stall as a playstyle, not originally the intention I had...
I would still like to hear your thoughts on stall and Mega Sableye, but I would appreciate it if you all focused more on this question: "How does stall function in OU with the absence of Mega Sableye (and eventually Gothitelle)?"
Ampharos @ Ampharosite
Ability: Static
EVs: 248 HP / 28 SpA / 232 SpD
Calm Nature
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Pulse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
SpD fabio is a pretty good answer to mega pidg on stall since it has restalk to reliably recover, and when coupled with support from several trappers, its slow volt switches can trap most of its switch ins with ease, this is particularly effective with dugtrio+specs gothitelle and it can turn into quite a vicious cycle very quickly.
- Status