Theorymon Sessions - Revamped

[DTC]

Theorymon Sessions ​

A lot of prompts being brought up in the old thread were not very great. Some would obviously not have a place in NU, and others just don't make any sense. In addition, the discussion is not very focused. I have gotten the go-ahead from Raseri to make a revamp of Theorymon Sessions. This time around, I will be the only one to post discussion prompts, in an attempt to make the discussion more organized and focused, as well as to maintain an acceptable amount of quantity. I will post new discussion prompts every few days. If you think you have a good idea for a prompt, feel free to VM/tell me on IRC, and I may include it.

To get a sense of the kind of posts I'd like to see, take a look at the posts in the first page of the old thread.

This thread is primarily a thinking exercise, designed to help you understand how to think about and deal with new metagames and threats. None of the situations that will be discussed in this thread are guaranteed to happen, if they ever will at all. We're just going to talk about this kind of stuff just for the sake of it and to improve our discussion abilities, aight?

 

[DTC]

So without further ado, lets move on to the first few prompts of the new thread.

1. What if Beartic was Ice/Water and had access to the move Waterfall?

Things to consider:​

• Beartic would get STAB priority, which is very nice to have as a tank.
• Beartic gets Swift Swim. Would the addition of a Water-typing allow Beartic to be a viable sweeper on rain teams, especially when considering its ability to break through annoying Pokemon such as Roselia?

2. What if Lunatone and Solrock benefited from Eviolite?

Things to consider:​

• Both Lunatone and Solrock have reliable recovery, Stealth Rock, and in the case of Solrock, Will-o-Wisp.
• Rock/Psychic with Levitate has a very interesting set of resistances, such as Normal, Flying, and Fire, while not being weak to coverage moves such as Kangaskhan's Earthquake and Charizard's Focus Blast.
• Rock/Psychic is also weak to 3 common types: Water, Grass, and Dark.
• How much worse, if at all, will Pokemon that are easily walled by Solrock (eg Kangaskhan and Tauros) and Lunatone (eg Charizard and Jynx) be.
• Which of the two would be better, and when should you use one or the other?

 

[ryan]

I'm going to comment on Solrock and Lunatone for now and let other people discuss Beartic. I think the two of them would benefit significantly more with their buffs, and they would probably lead to a healthier metagame, whereas Beartic would just a be really cool offensive Pokemon (and yet another Pokemon to prepare for against rain teams).

As it stands, Solrock and Lunatone have niches of being the only Pokemon in NU with resistances to both Normal- and Flying-type attacks without being weak to Ground-type attacks, outside of the rare and very niche Bronzor. They also have reliable recovery, which means that they can't always be worn down throughout the match. This makes the duo viable enough to see use on serious teams, but despite these great advantages, they don't have the best bulk and thus rely a lot of their typing to allow them to check things. They are also weak to Dark-type attacks, which means that they can be Pursuit-trapped in order for one of the Pokemon they check to sweep later on. They are also weak to U-turn (DTC you forgot a type), which makes it even easier for them to be trapped when trying to check Swellow.

With Eviolite, however, Lunatone and Solrock would likely see a pretty significant increase in usage—assuming, of course, that their evolved forms aren't also NU and ultimately superior. I don't think that Kangaskhan and Tauros would really decrease much in either usage or viability; they are both primarily used to check offensive teams, so it's a given that a team with Kangaskhan or Tauros will likely have a couple of answers for Solrock. Jynx and Charizard would probably both do fine as well. As with any Jynx check, Lunatone can be put to sleep, putting a lot of pressure on the opposing team when trying to check it. It would also be really vulnerable to Scarf Jynx's Trick, not only losing out on the ability to switch up moves, but also giving up its Eviolite to be Tricked to something else later on. Charizard would be incredibly pressured against Lunatone, 4HKOing it at best with Life Orb Hidden Power Grass and only potentially only 5HKOing it with Life Orb Focus Blast. I do still think that Charizard would be used a lot in spite of this, but it would give stall teams and bulky teams a good answer to both of these huge threats.

Lunatone would be hands-down better in my opinion. While Solrock has a better movepool (with Will-O-Wisp and a Rock STAB outside of Hidden Power Rock), there are more Pokemon that can be used to check Normal- and Flying-types that are already really good. Solrock has to compete with Regirock, Metang, Carracosta, and more to fill its teamslot. However, there aren't many Pokemon that can check Jynx and Charizard reliably, and the few that do handle them are pretty mediocre. Eviolite Lunatone's niche is pretty much unfilled right now, and it would be a really good Pokemon.

 

[watashi]

thread title should be dtctator's theorymons

anyways beartic would be a cool physical sweeper that can get past both alomomola and tangela. personally i would run something like substitute | bulk up | icicle crash | aqua jet or waterfall which was already effective more but can beat alomomola more reliably now. it actually fares worse against tangela but it has the bulk to survive giga drain and 2hko back with a boosted icicle crash. i still wouldn't use it on rain teams though since its coverage is bad and it needs to boost to be an effective sweeper.

i disagree with treecko on the case of solrock and lunatone. i think solrock would be a lot better since it's typing is much more suited to physical walling rather than special. sure, lunatone handles charizard and jynx better, but it's still a worse check than say metang for the latter, and solrock would be able to handle charizard anyways. solrock would also be less prone to being trapped by pursuit and is a foolproof counter to basically every normal-type in the tier.

 

[tennisace]

252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Hidden Power Grass vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solrock: 112-133 (32.55 - 38.66%) -- 2.59% chance to 3HKO


0 SpA Lunatone Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jynx: 152-180 (56.08 - 66.42%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Solrock Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 344-408 (126.93 - 150.55%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lunatone: 76-91 (22.09 - 26.45%) -- possible 4HKO
252 SpA Jynx Ice Beam vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Solrock: 90-106 (26.16 - 30.81%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Agreeing with FLCL, Solrock would be better since Eviolite + Special Defense EVs means Solrock performs almost exactly the same as Lunatone, while Rock Slide is a better attack than HP Rock (especially vs Jynx). Will-o-Wisp is also pretty huge, as it means Solrock can cripple a ton of Pokemon as opposed to just "walling" them, which is a pitfall of a lot of defensive Pokemon in NU. The best defensive Pokemon can do something for the team outside of just sponging hits. If you were to go Physically defensive with Solrock (which you should), you lose the ability to really check Charizard, but since you OHKO Jynx as opposed to 2hko you can still get it on the revenge since it can't do all that much.

The better theorymon for Beartic would be Ice/Fighting, since as of right now you just compounded more weaknesses on rain teams while not actually helping them get rid of Pokemon like Lickilicky or Regice.

 

[Alonsoforever]

Considering that in the last page of the previous thread I put 4 Theorymons, Do you alude to posts like mine when saying that in the first post? I just want to know that. Because I don't think Contrary Monferno, Quiver Dance Bellossom, improving the odd but cool Steamroller and Huge Power Phanpy with Rapid Spin are broken or don't make sense.

Anyways, Eviolite Solrock would be a nice addition to the actual metagame, as it has amazing bulk with Eviolite and has Will-o-Wisp to cripple opponents, and Lunatone would also be fine as we have very few good counters to Charizard and Jynx, and Lunatone can become a glue to those teams that lack a good answer for those two, as well as good option for a supporting Pokémon with good special bulk.

About Beartic, it needs something to be viable, as its Speed is bad without rain and Ice isn't a very good defensive typing. It needs something new to shine, and a new STAB, Water for becoming a dedicated rain sweeper, or Fighting, to nullify its Stealth Rock weakness and getting nice and powerful coverage options is good, would improve it a lot, for sure.

 

[tennisace]

Considering that in the last page of the previous thread I put 4 Theorymons, Do you alude to posts like mine when saying that in the first post? I just want to know that. Because I don't think Contrary Monferno, Quiver Dance Bellossom, improving the odd but cool Steamroller and Huge Power Phanpy with Rapid Spin are broken or don't make sense.

They're all extremely irrelevant to the metagame though. Monferno is still frail/weak, Bellossom still doesn't have any coverage and is outclassed by literally every single offensive Grass-type (hell I'd even use Sunflora because at least it gets Earth Power), Scolipede needs Megahorn to get some 2hkos, and Phanpy is frail (your suggestion of Head Smash is silly because of the recoil taken and lack of recovery).

I had talked to DTC a few days ago when he posed a neat little change on IRC (I forget what it was though). The point of this reboot is to make one small tweak to Pokemon that have a lot of good characteristics already. Beartic has Swift Swim, high attack, and Ice-type STAB, which are all useful to rain teams looking to diversify. Solrock and Lunatone have unique typing, Levitate, (mostly) reliable healing moves, and some decent support moves (especially Will-o-Wisp on Solrock). The suggestions given don't add much or entirely change the way that the Pokemon is used, but give them a small but significant boost to their effectiveness.

 

[Bluwing]

I think Beartic would be really cool with a dual type in Ice/Water as it will gain some resistances and neutralities, but it also gains two more weaknesses in Electric and Grass which I find a bit crucial due to the Rotom formes and Serperior being really decent in this meta, I also want to mention Samurott and Seismotoad as they can both hit him hard with Hp Grass/Grass Knot before it can really touch them. So I made a set which can be both based on a more bulky attacker and a more offensive attacking Beartic, both need teammates to handle the threaths I peaked out and also hazard support whicht shouldn't be a problem at all in NU. So anyway before I post the set down here I will say that no i'm not gonna make any calc's it's late and i'm lazy so if ou are courius make some yourself, also this set is not 100% in any way is just a "theorymon" right off the bat set which I thought, hey this could be cool right. So this set is in my opinion decent if played right or even very good, I would also recommend the "defensive" attacking set as it has recovery in Lefties which helps vs Stealth Rock which Life Orb doesn't.

/

Beartic | Ice/Water | Swift Swim
130 HP | 252 Atk | 128 Spd | Adamant
Icicle Crash | Aqua Jet | Encore | Bulk Up / Swords Dance

So basically what this set does is that it comes in Encore something slow which really can't do anything against Beartic for example "alomomola uses wish, you switch in your Beartic, Encore it as it tries to Toxic you or w/e then setup" And that is also why I have 128 Spd investment as well to outspeed Alomomola and Tank Torterra, the Hp ivs are there some bulk, but also to take minimum damage from rocks. Max Atk to hit as hard as possible, Icicle Crash for main STAB and Aqua Jet for second STAB and to make up for it's horrible speed tier and it will hit hard after some boosts. Encore is obvious, and Bulk Up and Swords Dance as setup moves and really just comes up to your preferences.

 

[HispanicPanic]

I see Solrock as being the better of the two for the reasons Tennisace and FLCL already mentioned. I just wouldn't want to pass up Willo-o-Wisp on Solrock for Lunatone's special bulk. Spreading burns for chip damage is really nice to have so that Solrock doesn't just sit there doing nothing other than walling hits.

One thing I did notice in both of their movepools is Baton Pass. That means even though they're both weak to Pursuit from Skuntank, they can still potentially get out of the situation if it doesn't taunt them first. Although they're not as slow as Musharna, Solrock and Lunatone could still provide slow Baton Passes to get offensive mons in more safely. There's quite a few things you could do with these two if they got Eviolite. A Solrock with a set of Stealth Rock / Will-o-Wisp / Rock Slide / Baton Pass could be really scary to face because of how bulky it would be physically and how easily it could Baton Pass to something more threatening.

Lunatone and Solrock would really jump in usage like Trecko said because of all of their resistances and the bulk they would have. Fire, Flying, Normal, Ground, Psychic, and Poison resistances are just really useful in this current meta. They would make a pretty healthy meta-game, and it'd be nice to play around with such interesting mons.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

imo what Solrock really has as its biggest advantage over, say, Golem, is reliable recovery, and I wouldn't pass that up for Baton Pass. Being Pursuit trapped by Skunk wouldn't be too much of a big deal if Solrock were capable of Will-O-Wisping it, heal up damage and switch out of a boosted Pursuit. It kinda has 4MSS but I guess if you can fit SR on another Pokemon then HispanicPanic's set with Morning Sun > Stealth Rock would be really great.

 

[termi]

So uh basically we can't express our creativity anymore? So um, couldn't we make another thread where us filthy plebeians can submit theorymons (no discussion in that thread) and then Overlord DTC decides whether or not it is worth discussing? That way you could filter out the silly ideas and provide intelligent discussion in this thread without limiting the creativity of the people.

Oh yeah, as for the theorymons right there: I really don't give a crap about Beartic, but Solrock and Lunatone seem like they could be great with Eviolite. They have good defensive movepools to work with, and unlike some walls actually pose decent offensive presence. Solrock would be the best of the two, as previously mentioned, due to the fact that he'd be able to handle special attackers with a lot of investment in his SpD, whereas Will-o-Wisp could still punish physical attackers trying to break through. It would definitely become a force to reckon with on stall teams.

 

[WhiteDMist]

You can always just VM DTC your ideas, and discuss them in irc beforehand to see if people would like to discuss it.

For Beartic, I see a SD set being similar to Samurott with a secondary Water-typing AND Waterfall. It has Icicle Crash to beat Grass-types slightly more reliably and it can even be faster in rain. I see a set like SD/Waterfall/Icicle Crash/Aqua Jet w/ LO /Lum being pretty effective since it has higher Atk than Samurott, a STAB move to handle Grass-types, and and slightly more special bulk. I think after a SD boost, Icicle Crash can 2HKO Musharna and it can't 2HKO back so you don't lose out on too much. It's much slower, and the Ice-typing still hinders it though since its still weak to Fighting-types (Gurdurr can be a problem). Icicle Crash is a great STAB move for Grass-types, but now opposing Water-types become harder to break through (especially Alomomola). The SubBU set looks effective as well, since it can actually set up on Alomomola and act as a stallbreaker. Encore is a cool move, but I would usually rather have a Sub up against Alomomola instead. I agree with FLCL that I wouldn't normally use Beartic in Rain, mostly because its unable to do anything to opposing Water-types without wasting a Rain turn setting up. Bad coverage is a problem since Rain teams prefer their Rain sweepers to be able to as much as possible (I feel like that is why the special Rain sweepers are the most popular, because they are better able to cover the metagame). It may be able to use opposing Rain, but it kind of still sucks against opposing SS mons since it can't outspeed the ones it can actually hurt (Seismitoad, Ludicolo, Mantine even).

 

[Punchshroom]

Echoing Lunatone and Solrock, SDef Solrock accomplishes what Lunatone does anyway. Lunatone's special resistances consist of Fire and Psychic, but Solrock resists Normal and Flying while being immune to Ground, which is a much more common combination to see on physical attackers. Solrock even has Will-o-Wisp to stop physical attackers to make up for lack of investment. It's a shame most of the Pokemon it walls are status orb users, but Solrock is still notably better than Lunatone at stopping physical attackers.

252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Night Slash vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Solrock: 160-190 (46.51 - 55.23%) -- 14.06% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Swellow U-turn vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Solrock: 132-156 (38.37 - 45.34%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Night Slash vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Lunatone: 200-236 (58.13 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Swellow U-turn vs. +1 252 HP / 4 Def Lunatone: 162-192 (47.09 - 55.81%) -- 78.52% chance to 2HKO

 

[Alonsoforever]

So uh basically we can't express our creativity anymore? So um, couldn't we make another thread where us filthy plebeians can submit theorymons (no discussion in that thread) and then Overlord DTC decides whether or not it is worth discussing? That way you could filter out the silly ideas and provide intelligent discussion in this thread without limiting the creativity of the people.

Oh yeah, as for the theorymons right there: I really don't give a crap about Beartic, but Solrock and Lunatone seem like they could be great with Eviolite. They have good defensive movepools to work with, and unlike some walls actually pose decent offensive presence. Solrock would be the best of the two, as previously mentioned, due to the fact that he'd be able to handle special attackers with a lot of investment in his SpD, whereas Will-o-Wisp could still punish physical attackers trying to break through. It would definitely become a force to reckon with on stall teams.

I completely agree with you, for people a bit less technical or not so good players, a Theorymon thread should be open in the forum, not just irc, and that thread can be a source for this one if a good idea comes up. If that idea is good/DTC likes it, it can be expanded here in this thread. A theorymon thread where we can express our ideas, maybe bad, maybe not important for the metagame, or maybe broken, would not harm anyone and it can actually provide this thread with an interesting discussion topic sometimes.

They're all extremely irrelevant to the metagame though. Monferno is still frail/weak, Bellossom still doesn't have any coverage and is outclassed by literally every single offensive Grass-type (hell I'd even use Sunflora because at least it gets Earth Power), Scolipede needs Megahorn to get some 2hkos, and Phanpy is frail (your suggestion of Head Smash is silly because of the recoil taken and lack of recovery).

I had talked to DTC a few days ago when he posed a neat little change on IRC (I forget what it was though). The point of this reboot is to make one small tweak to Pokemon that have a lot of good characteristics already. Beartic has Swift Swim, high attack, and Ice-type STAB, which are all useful to rain teams looking to diversify. Solrock and Lunatone have unique typing, Levitate, (mostly) reliable healing moves, and some decent support moves (especially Will-o-Wisp on Solrock). The suggestions given don't add much or entirely change the way that the Pokemon is used, but give them a small but significant boost to their effectiveness.

Contrary Monferno can be good especially if it learns Hammer Arm, because with Eviolite, Close Combat and Slack Off it can be hard to beat (of course problems with Status, average Speed, and frailness even with Eviolite, but not a horrible Pokémon that doesn't deserve an analysis, you'd still prefer Combusken?) Quiver Dance Bellossom is a good way to improve it, and it has Sleep Powder, so a set consisting of Hidden Power X (probably Rock), Quiver Dance, Giga Drain and Sleep Powder is good, and you know, Timid Bellossom is faster than Jynx after a Quiver Dance, so it becomes one of the fastest sleep inducers in the tier after a boost. Steamroller... I didn't say "let's improve Steamroller for Scolipede!" I said that if it were more powerful and had a better distribution, it would be a nice move, and maybe Steamroller would become viable over Megahorn for Scolipede sometimes, due to perfect accuracy and neat flinch rate, but what I meant was that if Steamroller were better, which Pokémon would benefit more from learning it, not just Scolipede. And Phanpy. Did you read that after a Knock Off and a bit of residual damage, Misdreavus is KOed with a single Head Smash? Misdreavus's HP isn't very good, while Phanpy has 90 base HP, so I don't think the recoil would be that troublesome.

 

[DTC]

i'm not reopenning the thread unless raseri wants to. please stay on topic from on.

also @tennisace, even though beartic isn't ice/fighting, it can still get past regice and lickilicky with superpower, provided stealth rock is up, although lickilicky has a good chance of surviving. of course the -attack and defense drop is annoying for trying to sweep, but the fact that beartic doesn't have to worry about them unlike other rain sweepers is nice.

 

[AlexArthur]

What if Lunatone and Solrock benefited from Eviolite?

I've used Solrock a few times in regular Neverused and found it good but not particulary so that I'd use it over Regirock or Golem but with eviolte it could take some hits without being forced to use Morning Sun every other turn.

Detailed Result:
252 Atk Choice Band Braviary (+Atk) Superpower vs 252 HP/252 Def Solrock (+Def) : 48.26% - 56.98%
2-3 hits to KO

Detailed Result:
252 Atk Choice Band Braviary (+Atk) Superpower vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Solrock (+Def) : 32.27% - 38.08%
3-4 hits to KO

That's at least 10% damage reduction against one of the main target you'd be attempting to check with Solrock.

 

[DTC]

Nice discussion so far~

Next topic:

What if Torkoal was a Fire/Ground-type?
Things to consider:

• How much easier is it for Torkoal to spin now that it isn't weak to Stealth Rock?
• Fire/Ground owns special Eelektross and other Electric-types.
• Torkoal would get access to STAB Earth Power, which could be really nice on Shell Smash sets.

 

[tennisace]

Oh this one was mine! :D

Torkoal gets a whole lot better, but in reality it doesn't particularly make spinning any easier for it since it's still susceptible to Toxic Spikes (and normal Spikes) with no real reliable recovery move. Only taking 12.5% instead of 25% from SR helps it a bit too, but again it can't recover off that damage without a wish mon like Audino.

The main reason I suggested this was because it gives bulky offensive teams a legitimate spinner/tank option that can slow the opponent's momentum without totally killing yours. An immunity to Volt Switch is pretty big in this meta (see: toad, Seismi), but not being weak to Grass-type coverage and resisting U-turn makes it even better.

One problem: Scolipede now does this - 252 Atk Scolipede Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 176-208 (51.31 - 60.64%) -- 90.63% chance to 2HKO - to Torkoal. It's a lot harder for Torkoal to actually force Scolipede out, since with prior damage Scolipede can permanently cripple or worse, outright beat Torkoal.

 

[DTC]

This prompt is gonna be a pretty massive change:

What if Stealth Rock's base damage was the Stealth Rock setters base Attack divided by 10?

Things to consider:

• For example, if Golem was the Pokemon to set up Stealth Rock, the Stealth Rock's damage vs a neutral target will be 11%
• Only 2 Pokemon's Stealth Rock outdamages the current Stealth Rock: Gigalith and Rampardos
• What Stealth Rock setters would fall out of favor from this change? What Stealth Rock setters would become more popular?
• How does this change affect the viability of Stealth Rock weak Pokemon?
• How does this change affect offensive, balance, stall, etc.

 

[AquaAdmin]

What if Torkoal was a Fire/Ground-type?

Wow. That would be killer. More switches into stealth rock/spikes, more offensive presence with STAB Earthquake/Earth Power, even lots of defensive bulk. That spells tank. The only thing that would be better if Torkoal could get some more recovery than just leftovers. A bit of a problem I see is that weakness to water. Torkoal would be forced to switch everytime, because that speed can't come close to most any water-type in the tier, and even with the defense, nobody likes a 4x weakness. Major lols at shell smash sweeper on a base 20 pokemon that dies to a surf from most any pokemon.

What if Stealth Rock's base damage was the Stealth Rock setters base Attack divided by 10?

that's so awful i don't even know what to say
Would they get STAB? Sturdy Gigalith would be a common lead, but Rampardos wouldn't work. Too frail to not be offensive. Maybe if you scarfed it, but otherwise it'd just get countered.
More spin-support would be seen on all teams, I'm thinking balanced stall would be a bit more playable.
Everyone get your rock-type counters ready~

 

[HispanicPanic]

That stealth rock change is pretty neat! I have just a few ideas on this change.

I don't think Stealth Rocks would really fall out of favor entirely, just that there would be less viable mons who could use it effectively. Usually, my rock setter is also my Flying and Normal resist, and besides Golem and Regirock, the more popular ones don't have huge attack power such as Metang (75 base Attack), Bastidon (52 base Attack), and Probopass (55 base attack). I think base 100 attack would be a decent benchmark for rock setters if this change were to happen because rocks would be doing about 10% neutrally which is just a tad under the 12.5% it is currently. Golem would be about as popular as it is now I think because it has so much utility, 11% Stealth Rocks damage, and is one of the few rock setters left with more than 100 base Attack that isn't a pure Rock-type. Then there's Piloswine who has 100 base Attack, the same utility as Golem except it can't really function as a Flying and Normal resist. Piloswine would still probably rise in popularity because of its decent attack power and offensive typing, however. Finally, there's a gaggle of pure Rock-types that hit at least 100 Attack such as Sudowoodo, Rampardos, Gigalith, and Regirock all would make decent rock setters, but Regirock still comes out on top in my opinion because of its utility outside of rock setting such as T-waving and weather support. Rampardos is just too frail to really make too much use of it, but Gigalith would probably rise a lot in usage because of its rocks hurting so much. It would make revenging rock weak threats such as Charizard even easier to manage.

In terms of how this would effect different types of play styles, I think stall would be effected the most considering one of its staples, Bastiodon, has its rocks nerfed considerably. I don't have much experience with stall, but Lairon has access to Stealth Rocks, Toxic, and Roar just like Bastiodon. It only lacks Magic Coat which is definitely something to consider, but with 90 base Attack instead of 52, Lairon could be used if Bastiodon falls out of favor.

 

[Punchshroom]

This prompt is gonna be a pretty massive change:

What if Stealth Rock's base damage was the Stealth Rock setters base Attack divided by 10?

Things to consider:

• For example, if Golem was the Pokemon to set up Stealth Rock, the Stealth Rock's damage vs a neutral target will be 11%
• Only 2 Pokemon's Stealth Rock outdamages the current Stealth Rock: Gigalith and Rampardos
• What Stealth Rock setters would fall out of favor from this change? What Stealth Rock setters would become more popular?
• How does this change affect the viability of Stealth Rock weak Pokemon?
• How does this change affect offensive, balance, stall, etc.

Stealth Rock based on base Attack? I would expect the damage to be based on "actual Attack divided by 30" (for the closest comparison purposes) so that Pokemon with no investment would feel the nerf, because with the current theorymon formula, minimum Attack Armaldo would have a stronger Stealth Rock than max Attack Golem, and that's seems pretty silly imo.

Based on this formula, most SR users like Piloswine, Carracosta, Torterra, Golem, Golurk, and Armaldo (ugh) aren't bothered very much, but Pokemon like Seismitoad, Torkoal, Metang and Probopass would definitely dislike the change. Suicide leads like Dwebble, Pineco and to an extent Omanyte (4% srsly?) would no longer be very viable, while stuff like Pinsir and Archen would see use in roles they would never have expected themselves to be in.

Stall teams would take a very heavy hit, as one of their main forms of damage would be heavily crippled. Most stall teams would resort to Golurk as their SR setters since it's strong and can spinblock, but its low speed, slow of weaknesses and lack of Levitate makes it not as good as Missy. In other news, Charizard won't have to worry about taking half from SR most of the time if the user is weak enough and may actually survive a second switch-in after LO or even Solar Power, while Mandibuzz won't have to worry so much about keeping her health high. This change would make the meta even more offensive than ever since defensive SR users take a big blow, making the meta even more unfavorable for stall teams.

 

[DTC]

Nice responses so far, especially HispanicPanic.

@AquaAdmin

More spin-support would be seen on all teams, I'm thinking balanced stall would be a bit more playable.
Everyone get your rock-type counters ready~

You do realize that Stealth Rock would do less damage for most Pokemon, right? The only Pokemon who have Stealth Rock that outdamage current Stealth Rock would be Gigalith and Rampardos, the latter of which you said wouldn't be viable. In essence, most of the time Stealth Rock would do less damage on average.

@HispanicPanic, I agree that Gigalith could finally see some use over Golem, because the extra 2% can be useful in the long run. Gigalith is also stronger than Golem, but of course that isn't enough to warrant usage over Golem at the moment.

I disagree that Stealth Rock Rampardos would not be good, though. I think Focus Sash Rampardos has the potential to be pretty good. 16.5% on neutral targets is pretty huge, even if Rampardos could be doing other things. I could see Focus Sash Rampardos being pretty common on offensive teams as they can afford to lose a Pokemon for a very powerful Stealth Rock. It's much easier for an offensive team to overwhelm another team when they have an extra powerful Stealth Rock.

@Punchshroom, I agree that if a mechanic like this was actually added in the game, it would be based off of the actual Attack stat. However, I went with base Attack stat because: 1) It's easier to understand 2) I didn't want to totally ruin Stealth Rock Pokemon like Seismitoad and Bastiodon who don't invest in their Attack stat.

 

[AquaAdmin]

You do realize that Stealth Rock would do less damage for most Pokemon, right? The only Pokemon who have Stealth Rock that outdamage current Stealth Rock would be Gigalith and Rampardos, the latter of which you said wouldn't be viable. In essence, most of the time, Stealth Rock would do less damage on average.

But who would use a pokemon that wouldn't do as much damage? Just spam Gigalith and bulky as fuck Rampardos (i still really hate that idea) and then you're basically fine for stealth rocks. If you can get more damage from stealth rocks, you will take it.

 

[DTC]

But you have to realize the opportunity cost of using either one of those Pokemon. Gigalith does not really offer much to a team that something like say Golem can. Rampardos could be using a more offensive set with an item like Choice Band, and Rampardos is also not that great of a Pokemon, especially if it wants to get rid of a moveslot (and item, because it will probably have to use Focus Sash to reliably set up SR) for Stealth Rock. If you want a powerful Stealth Rock, you could always use something like Golurk, whose Stealth Rock's power is comparable to Gigalith at 12.4%.

Sure, they could become more viable after this change... but does that mean they are good enough to be worthy of using them on every team? Probably not.