Theorymon Sessions

[Shuckleking87]

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 261-307 (48.87 - 57.49%) -- 53.13% chance to 2HKO

It actually does more with Close Combat, and it can't really do anything for Sawk because Stone Edge hits flying types that ThunderPunch would be able to hit. If anything Sawk could use something to hit Ghost-types that switch in harder but it can work around that through Earthquake for Missy, Ice Punch for Golurk, etc. On the other hand, I'd hate to be locked into Thunder, especially against Alomomola which can Protect stall you anyway, and Thunder won't necessarily hit most times. So yeah, not a fan of Specs either, but I've already mentioned that on PS at various times.

I would suggest zap cannon>thunder anyway, as that gives you a 100% chance to paralyze, as opposed to 30%, so you could prevent a protect if alomomola gets fully paralyzed and kill it.

Sawk won't miss with zap cannon, it has the inner focus to make sure it will hit the big fish

 

[skylight]

Yes, that's if Zap Cannon actually hits, because as you know, it has 50% accuracy, and Sawk isn't Machamp and thus doesn't have No Guard, and thus will almost most definitely miss. Sawk doesn't actually need anything else to hit Alomomola because after SR, or prior damage, Alomomola can't switch into two Close Combats, and if I was using Sawk I certainly wouldn't switch INTO Alomomola so the entire point is void given that Close Combat is perfectly good as it is, without relying on completely inaccurate moves. :/

 

[vyomov]

What if Regice got No Guard?
Move over BoltBeam. It's ZapBeam that will steal the show, as Regice will now be able to abuse a 120 BP full paralysis attack. This also helps mitigate Regice's lack of speed, as paralysis levels the speed ground.
Compare the impact of Zap Cannon to Thunderbolt:
252+ SpA Life Orb Regice Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 458-541 (85.76 - 101.31%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Regice Zap Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 577-681 (108.05 - 127.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As a result, mons like Seismitoad which can wall Regice will become more popular, although you might see Regice running HP Grass to combat that.
What if Heatmor got No Guard?
Just like Regice, No Guard would give Heatmor a massive boost. Being able to abuse Inferno(in combination with Flash Fire, which can be deadly) and thus wall physical attackers, Heatmor would be a good mixed Scarfer with Inferno, Focus Blast, Night Slash and HP Grass.

 

[skylight]

Yeah um, about Heatmor, it has base 66 defenses, that isn't walling very much, given that with its base 65 Speed, 99% of the physical attackers in NU will be outspeeding it and OHKOing it before it even gets a chance to use Inferno. Torkoal on the other hand can actually live hits from physical attackers, can inflict burn often with Lava Plume, and can do something for the team in Rapid Spin, the same can be said with Alomomola with Scald and Wish. You'd be using a mixed scarf as a wall for slow physical attackers. This sounds great in theory but when you think of,

252+ SpA Heatmor Inferno vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sawk: 196-232 (67.35 - 79.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band burned Sawk Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatmor: 245-289 (78.77 - 92.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Then keep in mind Stealth Rock and you realise how great of a wall this really is.

And you compare that to Tangela, for example,

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 136-162 (40.84 - 48.64%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You see that NU's current walls are quite efficient at walling the physical attackers, compared to a mixed Scarf Heatmor which serves very little other purpose when you can instead be locked into a speedy 120 BP move (in other words, Charizard with Fire Blast) and can actually outspeed some scarf physical attackers in NU efficiently, and rather OHKO them than just attempt to wall them.

Also you mentioned abusing Inferno with Flash Fire - that cannot be done with No Guard, so...

 

[ryan]

Yeah, No Guard Heatmor would probably still be pretty bad, but No Guard Regice would be ridiculous lol.

Its Rock Polish set is already awesome. Give it perfect accurate Blizzard, Zap Cannon, and Focus Blast, and you've got a borderline broken sweeper.

 

[Punchshroom]

Too bad Regice would be exposed to all the Focus Blasts, Fire Blasts and Stone Edges in the world, or Hustled attacks (Zweilous).

 

[Aasgier]

Regice doesn't like to take those regardless, with or without chance to miss.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Yeah Regice wouldn't enjoy eating super effective attacks in the first place, but as stated, it would be a very powerful sweeper with Rock Polish. No Guard Blizzards, Zap Cannons, and Focus Blasts, with no Pokemon in the tier being able to take the attacks, nothing walls them with their coverage and high power.

Heatmor would still suck anyways, lol. Too bad the anteater sucks, but the ant rules.

Since I didn't post much, I'll leave you guys with this.

How would these former NU Pokemon fare if they were in NU?

These, right here, are all former NU Pokemon (Rhydon/Klinklang left first, then Mesprit, then Cryo, for the record). Which leaves me here to ask, just how would they do if they were in the tier? While they're unlikely to ever return now, it would be interesting to see if they were in NU again (since the meta has changed quite a bit since they all left tbh). Mesprit was the most used Pokemon in NU prior to leaving the tier, and it could be a pretty good and versatile Pokemon, especially as a supportive Pokemon. Klinklang would probably be a top tier sweeper, being able to outspeed and sweep much of the metagame, and having only one hard counter in Metang (since Quag left). Cryogonal may also offer a great spinner other than Wartortle for those teams where Wartortle is undesirable. Finally, Rhydon may just very well be one of the better SR setters in NU, and should be able to find common use in the tier. So how would they do? (yeah this is unlikely but this would be something).

 

[Leafshield]

Ah, very interesting topic, Scrafty! All of these Pokémon were once very good in NU, and analyzing them in a very different metagame offers very interesting discussion! All of these Pokémon (imo at least) have the potential to be threatening in the NU tier with proper support, or even without it!


Mesprit

Mesprit was a titan in NU before it left, and I think it would be very good even now. During its stint in NU, Mesprit functioned as a fantastic user of Calm Mind, as well as being an extremely effective weather supporter, with access to both Rain Dance and Sunny Day, as well as both U-turn and Healing Wish. To be honest, while Mesprit now faces plenty of competition from other Psychic-types, such as Gardevoir for support, Musharna as a Calm Mind sweeper, and Jynx as a Choice Scarfer, it still carves a niche for itself in being very bulky and versatile. One thing that lets Mesprit down is its base 80 Speed stat, which is just not fast enough to outspeed common threats as it was while it was still in NU. Other than that, I can see Mesprit getting plenty of use in the current meta, with a strong array of very balanced stats and just the right movepool.

Klinklang

If you think Klang was effective in Stage 9, just see how cool its older brother would be in this coming stage! While the gear was in NU, it was a fantastic sweeper, using its unique Steel-type STAB and amazing boosting move in Shift Gear to do damage to plenty of unprepared teams, with just enough coverage to be a hassle to stop. In the most recent stages of NU, Steel-types have been becoming rarer and rarer, meaning that less teams prepare for them (which sort of kind of lead to Klang's effectiveness, imo). Klinklang brings many useful resistances to the table, making it very easy to set up on the likes of Jynx (if you run Lum, of course), Samurott, and Kangaskhan. But, aside from how amazing Klinklang looks on paper in this meta, it struggles to beat out many of the bulkiest walls in the tier, such as Tangela and the new drop in Mandibuzz. It still has the same old coverage issues, being hard-walled by a lot of Ground-types, such as Golurk, who threaten it immediately with STAB Earhquake, and is immediately threatened by fast Fighting-types in Primeape and Sawk, who easily revenge kill it if it's not behind a sub. Aisde from that, Klinklang can be a force in the tier with the proper partners, such as a fast Water-type capable of blowing away bothersome Grounds such as Simipour or Floatzel.

Cryogonal

Introducing a halfway decent spinner to NU! No, I'm just playing, but in all seriousness, Cryogonal brings to the table the fastest Rapid Spin in the tier. To be honest, mono-Ice typing sucks dick, but Cryogonal's speed, power, and overall decent bulk allow it to spin and threaten a variety of spinblockers, such as Golurk and Haunter, with STAB Ice Beam. Not much else to say on the matter, though, as I never really used Cryogonal all that much :/.

Rhydon

Finally, we have a Pokémon with the potential to be the best Stealth Rock setter in the tier. Rhydon's fantastic mix of great Attack and good physical bulk, in conjunction with a set of cool abilities, makes it a very interesting setter of Stealth Rock. In conjuction with the obvious strength and weaknesses its Ground/Rock typing provides, Rhydon gets access to Megahorn, which allows it to dent Grass-types hard, something not many Stealth Rock setters can boast. Another interesting tidbit about Rhydon is its superior overall bulk and better typing to Piloswine, factoring in Eviolite of course. Imo, it'd be a really interesting addition to the tier.

 

[watashi]

mesprit

its most threatening set would probably be choice band or an offensive calm mind sweeper set since they can possibly get past dark-types. the stealth rock set isn't that amazing but at least it's not destroyed by sawk. mesprit would probably fit right into nu without being too centralizing.

klinklang

with the right support it could probably overwhelm the tier since it's strong, fast, and nearly impossible to revenge kill. it finds plenty of chances to set up and can set up on alomomola. klinklang is fairly one dimensional but it will probably require every team to run at least two checks to it.

cryogonal

my stall team could really use one of these. it was the best spinner when it was in the tier before and it's probably better now due to the popularity of golurk.

rhydon

this thing is really physically bulky but it's also easily worn down and taken advantage of by special attackers. it will be a force when played correctly but the lack of sturdy and leftovers really hurts it compared to golem.

 

[vyomov]

What if Charizard became Fire/Dragon and got Levitate to compensate for the wings?

This makes complete sense in terms of flavour because let's face it, what part of Charizard doesn't SCREAM dragon???
With this, Charizard would have unresisted coverage with it's STABs. It's current flying-STAB only hits fighting types harder than the Fire STAB, but in exchange, Charizard no longer has the 4x SR weakness, which would make it MUCH MORE viable.

Charizard could form an excellent core with Metang with the new typing and ability: Charizard is weak to rock and dragon type attacks, both walled by metang while Metang is weak to fire and ground type attacks, to which Charizard would now have a 4x resist and immunity respectively, thus making a great core.

 

[Othesemo]

What if Charizard became Fire/Dragon and got Levitate to compensate for the wings?

The OP explicitly says that we should be leaving typing alone.

 

[Blast]

What if Eviolite had never existed?

NU is full of Eviolite-wielding NFEs: including Misdreavus, Piloswine, Metang, Gurdurr, Wartortle, Golbat, Gothorita, Tangela, Zweilous, Klang, Murkrow, Fraxure, Dragonair, Scraggy, Vigoroth, Frillish, Natu, and Shelgon. But would any of these guys even function without their precious Eviolite? A 1.5 boost to both defenses is pretty massive, and many of these mons really depend on that boost to be effective. So what do you guys think?

 

[Infernis]

I wouldn't use most of them, but CB Zweilous is the set of champions. I don't think I'd ever pick Eviolite for it.

 

[Leafshield]

As far as if Eviolite never existed, I would think that none of these mons would see much use, if any at all. Looking at it, I could only truly see myself using Piloswine, Golbat, Tangela, Zweilous, and Scraggy without the added bulk given by the stone. All of these Pokémon already have some outstanding abilities that allow them to function very well (Piloswine's unique offensive typing, STAB priority, etc, Golbat's useful stallbreaking move pool and great speed, Tangela's power and bulk, as well as access to Regenerator, Zweilous' fucking uber powerful Hustle-boosted, CB Outrage, and Scraggy's just got some cool typing and amazing boosting moves.). I could see some others getting use, such as Klang, Missy, and Wartorlte (if not just to spin), but I wouldn't really use the rest as often.

Now, I offer my own question to the thread:

What if Seismetoad got Ice Beam?

One thing that always puzzled me is that Seismetoad may be one of the only bulky Water-types out there without access to Ice Beam, and only the weak Ice Punch. Personally, I can see Ice Beam being very popular on Seismetoad sets due to the ability to hit Flying-Types as well as Grass-type switch-ins much harder than the usual Scald could. Thoughts on this?

 

[Lasagne]

Ice beam is a move I've been praying for on seismitoad for a while. It would become nearly as good as, if not equal to ludicolo in terms of a rain sweeper, as it has good bulk, typing and decent movepool already. Its speed is also better, so it would not be as easily outsped by fast scarfers. It also helps that these fast scarfers can hardly touch the toad anyway.

I'm going to think about what Pokemon will become better without eviolite in the tier, and not the other way around. Obviously physical attackers such as primeape and sawk will be glad to get rid of previous defensive monsters such as tangela, misdreavus and metang. Primeape especially would love this change, as unlike sawk, who can deal with these Pokemon, they stop ape dead in its tracks.

Now to suggest my own theorymon:

What if Swoobat got access to Heart Swap, and Simple doubled stat boosts received by it?
While this would certainly make it a better Pokemon, able to steal spA boosts from Pokemon like Misdreavus and Musharna, I'm not sure how well it would actually function. Being able to stop mushy is big, as a +2 or +4 air slash will certainly dent, if not kill musharna. I'll be interested to hear other peoples thoughts on this.

 

[Punchshroom]

Stealing boosts would be all well and good if Swoobat can actually take a hit from most of its targets what with its paper-thin defenses. Heart Swap could very well be replaced with Calm Mind itself anyway, as it is a much more reliable method of boosting and not leave Swoobat deadweight against non-boosters. Running Herat Swap alongside Calm Mind is also silly, as that slot could've been used for coverage or a safety buffer like Substitute or Roost.

 

[Lasagne]

This is exactly the reason I'm not sure it would be any good. Its a very unreliable and situational strategy, but can have higher reward than calm mind, as it takes away your opponent's boosts as well as adding to your own.

 

[vyomov]

What if Kingler got Waterfall?
Suddenly, Kingler would become one of the best water-types in the meta. With Sheer Force+LO Waterfall, Kingler would hit HARD and would be much more viable especially with it's 130 Atk and 115 Def meaning it can tank physical hits and OHKO with Return or Waterfall.

 

[Punchshroom]

Oh yes, that would definitely be something to look out for, easily one of the strongest Water attacks in all of NU.

 

[Shuckleking87]

With Sheer Force and Waterfall, we would have a poke with essentially a 104 base power 100% accurate move with no flinch (waterfall) vs. the now 90 base power 90% accurate move (these are not including increases in life orb and stab, but each move would raise in the same proportion). I do not think a 14 bp 10 more accurate move would push kingler into one of the best waters in the meta because of a lack of speed, priority and absoultely no special defensive bulk

 

[Punchshroom]

Maybe so, but it makes Basculin look like a pussy in comparison. It's true it has no special bulk to speak of, but its physical bulk enables it to setup Swords Dance / Agility on Ground-types and whatnot to pound the opposition to dust.

 

[Shuckleking87]

Not quite sure about that. Yes, basculin has absolutely no bulk, however, it does have 2/3 things I mentioned, speed (outspeeding the 95 speed tier) and priority (aqua jet). Adaptability may also be a better ability, however, basculin still does not have the sky high attack kingler has. Do not have access to a damage calc to see which move would hit higher (probably kingler's), but with the ability to kill primeape and non scarfed jynx, unlike kingler minus a boost, is pretty big for the small sea bass

 

[vyomov]

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Waterfall vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 195-230 (45.03 - 53.11%) -- 92.19% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Basculin-B Waterfall vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 182-216 (42.03 - 49.88%) -- 41.02% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So Sheer Force Kingler hits harder than CB Adaptability Basuclin-B

 

[Infernis]

You also have the fact that Kingler wouldn't have to compromise his decent physical bulk with Life Orb recoil anymore. And his sweep wouldn't be cut short by it after taking a hit to set up SD or Agility. If Kingler can get to +2/+2 with even a single hit point left, he could crush his way though anything but Aftermath, Rocky Helmet, and priority attackers.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 211-250 (57.96 - 68.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 270-320 (74.17 - 87.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not quite the sheer power of Sawk, but with the benefit of being able to Agility past Jynx and KO with Return. Alternatively...

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Probopass: 538-634 (166.04 - 195.67%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 325-383 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 370-437 (98.93 - 116.84%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 308-364 (92.21 - 108.98%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 164+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 320-378 (90.65 - 107.08%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Waterfall vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 387-458 (89.37 - 105.77%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 231-274 (71.29 - 84.56%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after (2 layers of) Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kingler Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 339-399 (80.14 - 94.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ludicolo: 286-337 (78.57 - 92.58%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 274-324 (66.18 - 78.26%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after (3 layers of) Spikes

These are all sets that Kingler outspeeds with the standard 208 EVs. If he manages to get to +2/+2, it's practically game over for many teams. What could wall this guy at +2 attack? Seemingly just Tangela, probably Cradily, and maaaaybe Tropius. Shit's whack.