Tier25

[natnew]

As of gen 6, you may not pass down level-up moves.

because you're insane enough to breed weedles.

...I'm trying to MM for a shiny one. I have 7 boxes deleted (literally...) and 2 more still there. I meant as in you CAN use egg moves.

also, what's with the manaphy in the example battle? it can setup with tail glow, but it's entire attacking movepool consists of:
-bubble
-bubblebeam
...and absolutely nothing else. terrible coverage, low power moves... why?

 

[TM13IceBeam]

manaphy isnt that bad if you consider that surf/scald is literally non existent (like, only simipour is legal with the latter, ha). also very few mons get hydro pump by level so theres that too.

 

[Yayz]

also, what's with the manaphy in the example battle? it can setup with tail glow, but it's entire attacking movepool consists of:
-bubble
-bubblebeam
...and absolutely nothing else. terrible coverage, low power moves... why?

I was about to say "because TMs, that's why" then I noticed that TMs are banned. so... that's a great question.

 

[Ranger Mike]

From what I have been reading on the internet: 16 evs= 1 point. This will be a little weird because you are gonna want to 32 evs to speed creep which is a little too much.

 

[skies]

...I'm trying to MM for a shiny one. I have 7 boxes deleted (literally...) and 2 more still there. I meant as in you CAN use egg moves.

also, what's with the manaphy in the example battle? it can setup with tail glow, but it's entire attacking movepool consists of:
-bubble
-bubblebeam
...and absolutely nothing else. terrible coverage, low power moves... why?

You neglect how Bubble Beam is the strongest STAB Water-type STAB move available to practically any Water-type. And looking at the big picture:

• +3 252+ SpA Life Orb Manaphy Bubble Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 66-78 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

2HKO'ing one of the most Specially Defensive Pokemon is pretty sick really. It might be weak, but it's really all that it needs. Look at Gyarados, it has a powerful Thrash / Flail and access to Dragon Rage, along with STAB Bite (Mega), but that's all it consists of. So many Pokemon's movepools are small in this metagame, but when you look at the big picture, not much has a big movepool anyways.

 

[JustAMan]

So many Pokemon have not good moves, but Gyarados has Aqua Tail and Dragon Dance too, and Azumarill has all it needs apart from Knock Off and Waterfall, but Aqua Tail is there for its needs

also, lv 100 vs. lv 25:

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 432-510 (164.8 - 194.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO(432, 437, 439, 447, 452, 455, 463, 468, 471, 478, 484, 486, 494, 499, 502, 510) Lv. 100

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 120-143 (164.3 - 195.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO(120, 120, 125, 125, 125, 127, 127, 133, 133, 133, 135, 135, 135, 140, 140, 143)Lv.25

They are the same mire or less, but with larger difference for lv.25

 

[TM13IceBeam]

Here's some thoughts regarding underlevelled mons (most of them are shit, like, shitty movepool and shit, but some gems are still here):

Hide

Moth - no quiverpass bullshit but bug buzz / psybeam are both pretty nice options to carry about, especially when backed by QD and Tinted Lens. No Sleep Powder is a shame however.

Dugtrio - magnitude and bulldoze are okayish substitutes for eq, but really its just here because your only other options for trapping are Wobbuffet, Magnet Pullers and the amazing Gothita.

Marowak - while his movepool is shitty as hell (like um why would you learn both tail whip and leer?? ?_?) he does have effectively the best attack stat in the tier afaik, and bonemerang hits damn fucking hard in a metagame where earthquake doesn't exist.

here's a comparison:
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aron: 192-234 (286.5 - 349.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aron: 296-360 (441.7 - 537.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Of course, Diggersby has the edge in having stab Take Down, Quick Attack, Hammer Arm and Swords Dance, but when it comes to pure power Marowak isn't too shabby too!

Magnezone - Lack of Analytic means Magnezone is stuck to a niche role of abusing Magnet Pull. However, it's really niche because your best electric stab is none other than Thundershock. Probably not worth it unless you really desperately need Skarmory gone.

Zoroark - Zoroark holds 2 important niches in this game: firstly it has illusion (like duh lol), and secondly, it's the only Pokemon in the metagame that can use U-turn!!! However, it's not as gamebreaking as it sounds, considering it loses literally everything else except like Night Daze and Pursuit. Still, I can see this being a pretty nice momentum grabber in the hands of a skilled player.

Braviary - A strong force with Defiant, Superpower/Brave Bird, and it's fucking 'murrica.

The loss of TMs and tutors actually makes this metagame more varied: most top mons in OU have quite the reliance on them, so taking them away drastically changes the metagame. For instance, the lack of Surf is really notable to the point where Bubblebeam Manaphy is legit (lol). Hydro Pump is legal, but then again the distribution isn't very good. Similarly, U-turn/Volt Switch/SR has pretty much evaporated: Zoroark is the only legal Pokemon with U-turn, Volt Switch has no legal users other than lolsmeargle, and SR has a reduced distribution.

Also ExtremeSpeed is really funny when the only legal users of it are Dratini and Togekiss. rofl

 

[natnew]

You neglect how Bubble Beam is the strongest STAB Water-type STAB move available to practically any Water-type. And looking at the big picture:

• +3 252+ SpA Life Orb Manaphy Bubble Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Aromatisse: 66-78 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

2HKO'ing one of the most Specially Defensive Pokemon is pretty sick really. It might be weak, but it's really all that it needs. Look at Gyarados, it has a powerful Thrash / Flail and access to Dragon Rage, along with STAB Bite (Mega), but that's all it consists of. So many Pokemon's movepools are small in this metagame, but when you look at the big picture, not much has a big movepool anyways.

yes but just water has bad coverage, too.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

yes but just water has bad coverage, too.

say that to crocune lol

no fucking shit manaphy needs support, but its pretty damn good at wallbreaking with +3 bubblebeam thats the whole point

 

[EV]

From what I have been reading on the internet: 16 evs= 1 point. This will be a little weird because you are gonna want to 32 evs to speed creep which is a little too much.

Well, when I played around with EVs on Showdown, sometimes 12 was enough to move 1 point. I think even at one time 8 moved a point, too. Most of the time stats cap out at 244, but there are a few that get to 252 (like Chansey's 5 base Defense iirc.) I think the "standard" is 244/244/and then 12-20 (see examples in OP.)

So many Pokemon have not good moves, but Gyarados has Aqua Tail and Dragon Dance too, and Azumarill has all it needs apart from Knock Off and Waterfall, but Aqua Tail is there for its needs

I'm still not decided on expanding moves past 25 via breeding, so Gyara does not have DD and Aqua Tail atm.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

I'm still not decided on expanding moves past 25 via breeding, so Gyara does not have DD and Aqua Tail atm.

Breeding or not Gyarados is never going to get those moves: Magikarp cannot hatch with them.

And now you know why Magikarp is the world's most useless Pokemon.

 

[Berry Juice]

So I made some quick lists of relevant(?) pokemon that can legally learn certain moves in this meta

Hide

-Stealth Rock:

• Steelix
• Carbink

-Spikes

• Qwilfish
• Klefki

-Toxic

• lol Stunky(at level 20 in Diamond/Pearl lol, but evolves at level 34, so no skuntank)

-Will-O-Wisp

• Ninetales(as a Vulpix, at level 17 in Gen 3 or at level 14 in Gen 4)

-Surf

• Pikachu/Raichu(not released yet, though)

-Thunderbolt

• Raichu

-Ice Beam

• nope

-Fire Blast

• nope

-Flamethrower

• Ninetales

-Return

• Lopunny(and its pre-evolution is the only pokemon with access to Frustration)

 

[TM13IceBeam]

ok i know this may not really be a big thing... but honestly, can anyone explain why we shouldn't allow Thundurus / Tornadus / Landorus? I mean, I know Dream Radar is one thing, but if we're banning it because of Dream Radar we might as well kill off all the event mons too.

IDK how TEG actually views this, since imo I consider the Dream Radar Pokemon as something in the same vein as event Pokemon (and not to mention there's no other way to get them and they're effectively released and such)

now that rant is over, how exactly is DW moves handled again? Some Pokemon obtain special moves from DW that would otherwise be unobtainable because it's not in their level up movepool, and these can be pretty useful (something like say, Sludge Wave Gengar)

definitely not a secret plot to bump thread nope

 

[Lvcrft]

I personally would say that as long as we don't have illegal combinations it should be fine, however, that's up to TEG.

Other relatively useful moves obtainable this way would be Stealth Rock on a lot of things, Con Ray / Roost on Murkrow, Signal Beam on Rotom among others (nothing I'd say it's essencial though, of course I could be wrong and I'm not sure if it'd be legal without DW or DW move mechanics)

 

[EV]

ok i know this may not really be a big thing... but honestly, can anyone explain why we shouldn't allow Thundurus / Tornadus / Landorus? I mean, I know Dream Radar is one thing, but if we're banning it because of Dream Radar we might as well kill off all the event mons too.

IDK how TEG actually views this, since imo I consider the Dream Radar Pokemon as something in the same vein as event Pokemon (and not to mention there's no other way to get them and they're effectively released and such)

now that rant is over, how exactly is DW moves handled again? Some Pokemon obtain special moves from DW that would otherwise be unobtainable because it's not in their level up movepool, and these can be pretty useful (something like say, Sludge Wave Gengar)

definitely not a secret plot to bump thread nope

If there is a list of DW moves someone can put together, I'm for it. Thing is, between regular illegalities and in-game trades and all that HGSS catching-stuff-before-it-technically-evolves BS, it's going to be hard to figure out what's legal on every usable Pokemon (which is what's holding this back from getting coded.)

I guess the genies can come and play, too.

 

[Lvcrft]

There's a list on Serebii, The Eevee General;

I could try helping with the legality list, unless someone else wants too / you want someone else to.

Or a division could be made for sanity's sake so like, one person makes for a region or so.

 

[TM13IceBeam]

i personally run icy wind starmie, though that's more out of necessity given that starmie's movepool is ass (pump, spin and recover are a given, and your options for the last slot are like swift, confuse ray or bubblebeam anyway)

genies would be interesting though, i'm liking the idea of Land-T, with moves like outrage, hammer arm and bulldoze.

i wouldn't mind adding on to what i've already done, but it's pretty tiring to comb through 600+ pokemon's movepools zz

 

[EV]

i wouldn't mind adding on to what i've already done, but it's pretty tiring to comb through 600+ pokemon's movepools zz

Well most of the pain rests in those evolves-later-but-is-obtainable group, right? I don't think we need to have every legal move combination for every legal Pokemon now that I think about it. We could just have the categories defined, like:

• Regularly obtained in-game (nothin' fancy): Yes eggs moves, HA allowed
• Obtained before it would normally evolve: No egg moves, HA not allowed
• Event Pokemon: blah blah
• Special circumstances: Braviary/Mandibuzz, only HA allowed, no egg moves
• Other (in-game trades?): fwafwafwa

Or do we need to be even more specific? Tell me what you think!

 

[Lvcrft]

It might also be interesting to note that mons obtained before evolution levels can't use pre evolutions level up moves and that mons obtained via transfer get level up from all the gens it passed through.

Just in case someone forgets or something.