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Tiering In Gen V
- Thread starter lati0s
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I say let all hell break loose for the first week or so, with the option of the quick boot.
The "Uber metagame" is looking more and more stable with new additions in the form of new pokemon and strategies, and may be bearable. If we find them to be too difficult to deal with, they can be booted and we can move on from there.
I think this will allow people to realize that certain base 600s, such as Lati@s and Manaphy, are decidedly manageable within the realm of 5th gen battling (in my opinion; that's how it seems to be shaping up).
The "Uber metagame" is looking more and more stable with new additions in the form of new pokemon and strategies, and may be bearable. If we find them to be too difficult to deal with, they can be booted and we can move on from there.
I think this will allow people to realize that certain base 600s, such as Lati@s and Manaphy, are decidedly manageable within the realm of 5th gen battling (in my opinion; that's how it seems to be shaping up).
Of course most of us will lack the ability to post in that thread. Anyway i think shanderaa needs to be banned right off the bat. Why? Shadow Tag. Its the same reason Wobuffet and Wynaut are banned.
Also Shanderaa fans dont attempt to bring the argument of Wobuffets defensive stats as wynaut is also banned because of the ability and it has crap stats.
Also Shanderaa fans dont attempt to bring the argument of Wobuffets defensive stats as wynaut is also banned because of the ability and it has crap stats.
wait until we have a reliable sim before we have this discussion wait until we have a reliable sim before we have this discussion wait until we have a reliable sim before we have this discussion wait until we have a reliable sim before we have this discussion wait until we have a reliable sim before we have this discussion wait until we have a reliable sim before we have this discussionvvv
i would prefer if smogon just went about this the way they did with the advance metagame, since that was such a perfect metagame. but i dont see why we shouldnt ban stuff like metwo and kyogre and groudon etc right off the bat.
i actually want to change my vote in the poll i support banning all gen 4 ubers, except maybe mence and chomp and manaphy
i would prefer if smogon just went about this the way they did with the advance metagame, since that was such a perfect metagame. but i dont see why we shouldnt ban stuff like metwo and kyogre and groudon etc right off the bat.
i actually want to change my vote in the poll i support banning all gen 4 ubers, except maybe mence and chomp and manaphy
I thought Wobbuffet was banned for Shadow Tag + Encore...... but anywho, I like the idea of "no rules" for starting off. I'm sure people will start to cry out for things like Sleep Clause, then some pokemon being obviously uber or vice versa... I would like to see if Species/ OHKO/ Evasion is really that big of a problem.
I agree that nothing should be banned originally.
But I also agree that we should really get a move-on from the get-go, with banning rounds perhaps every fortnight, and we can slow down when we feel things are getting more balanced. We won't get it perfect, but we can always re-test things in the future if needs be. It's just looking at DPP's old BL list; it literally makes me shudder.
My 2nd preference would be the 2nd option, but that wouldn't be ideal. I know this isn't a good comparison, but I remember a couple of years ago there was a phase where some people were thinking Ho-oh was OU standard. Perhaps it would've been really broken, but having tested it to know for sure would be nice, so that we have evidence when people bring something like it up in a few years time.
But I also agree that we should really get a move-on from the get-go, with banning rounds perhaps every fortnight, and we can slow down when we feel things are getting more balanced. We won't get it perfect, but we can always re-test things in the future if needs be. It's just looking at DPP's old BL list; it literally makes me shudder.
My 2nd preference would be the 2nd option, but that wouldn't be ideal. I know this isn't a good comparison, but I remember a couple of years ago there was a phase where some people were thinking Ho-oh was OU standard. Perhaps it would've been really broken, but having tested it to know for sure would be nice, so that we have evidence when people bring something like it up in a few years time.
I think most things should be tested except surefire ubers like Zekrom, Reshiram, and Kyuremu. I actually think that Genosect won't be uber...
I say ban Kyogre, Groudon, and the 680+ Pokemon. Testing them is a waste of time. They'd either all be banned or more if not all remain unbanned, and turn OU into Ubers. Which isn't bad in itself, but it has other problems.
Seems to me there isn't sufficient basis for banning any 600s or lower just yet, with the metagame being as powerful as it is. As IcyMan said, the new Pokemon and more powerful old ones might be able to handle some of the old threats a bit better now, and it would certainly expand the metagame. Even the Pokemon with Shadow Tag might work out; we can't really tell unless we test them in this new environment. The only thing that seems borderline is the Ice/Dragon, which might be worth testing regardless.
Seems to me there isn't sufficient basis for banning any 600s or lower just yet, with the metagame being as powerful as it is. As IcyMan said, the new Pokemon and more powerful old ones might be able to handle some of the old threats a bit better now, and it would certainly expand the metagame. Even the Pokemon with Shadow Tag might work out; we can't really tell unless we test them in this new environment. The only thing that seems borderline is the Ice/Dragon, which might be worth testing regardless.
So many Legendary Pokemon this Generation beside the two main ones look to me like they could be in Suspect.
I'll pull out my PR essay that Erazor posted for me there:-
Considering the arrival of the base stats of all the fully evolved Pokemon(which has been confirmed by Serebii), this is when we need to realize that we cannot use the same power standards as we did for DP. There are a lot of Pokemon that have at least one base stat about 105(just an arbitrary large number), meaning that they(at least from a theorymon aspect) are going to cause large ripples in the metagame. If we expect to start with some predefined bans, we are at once beginning with a mindset that Generation 5’s OU will have the same approximate power level as Generation 4’s OU. This is a fallacy, as while we may achieve a balanced metagame, we are then trying to achieve a V2 DP metagame, which while keeping us in our comfort zone, is likely to cause an extremely large ban list of new Pokemon, due to them being above our perceived “required power level”.
There is an extremely good chance that some of our current Ubers may not be so in Generation 5, due to the addition of several Pokemon to the metagame. Hypothetically, if say, Deoxys-A was balanced in this metagame due to a lot of priority users being available, pre-defining Deoxys-A to be Uber would be a mistake, since it does not overcentralize the new metagame. This would lead to arguments and debates later, when it could have been easily solved earlier. Note, this is just an example.
While this may be argued to be an “Ubers Lite”, let us examine what we mean by Ubers Lite. We mean that the power level will be lesser than that of Ubers, but larger than that of OU. However, another fundamental concept which we need to understand is that the so called “Uber Lite” power of one generation may be the “OU power level” of the next.
OU is decided by usage, but also indirectly by power, due to anything being perceived to be overly powerful and centralizing being banned to Ubers. Thus, OU has a certain power level, and it has to be accepted that the level changes between generations. Trying to set pre-defined limits on OU’s power range based on a previous generation would be an appeal to tradition, trying to make ourselves comfortable in a metagame we are used to, rather than trying to experiment with a new one.
So basically, starting with no bans for a 2-week testing period would solve a lot of these problems. We can run such a testing period by opening a thread where people can report what the new metagame is like, what is powerful, what was hyped incorrectly etc. If there is too much outcry about particular Pokemon being broken, we can test those specific Pokemon with whatever testing process we intend to use then.
If anybody wants to say that people would be discouraged from entering an “unbalanced “ metagame, I see no need to advertise a “balanced” metagame while we are in the process of testing at the beginning.]
tl;dr: Trying to have a pre-defined banlist for Gen 5 is like trying to preserve the DP metagame in a slightly modified form, which is not the aim of our tiers system. The real aim is to provide a competitive metagame, which does not have to be very similar to the previous generation’s metagame.
Yeah, it sums up why I feel we should start with no bans. I do support Species Clause, Evasion Clause and OHKO clause imposed at the starting though, but I guess that's a given.
Considering the arrival of the base stats of all the fully evolved Pokemon(which has been confirmed by Serebii), this is when we need to realize that we cannot use the same power standards as we did for DP. There are a lot of Pokemon that have at least one base stat about 105(just an arbitrary large number), meaning that they(at least from a theorymon aspect) are going to cause large ripples in the metagame. If we expect to start with some predefined bans, we are at once beginning with a mindset that Generation 5’s OU will have the same approximate power level as Generation 4’s OU. This is a fallacy, as while we may achieve a balanced metagame, we are then trying to achieve a V2 DP metagame, which while keeping us in our comfort zone, is likely to cause an extremely large ban list of new Pokemon, due to them being above our perceived “required power level”.
There is an extremely good chance that some of our current Ubers may not be so in Generation 5, due to the addition of several Pokemon to the metagame. Hypothetically, if say, Deoxys-A was balanced in this metagame due to a lot of priority users being available, pre-defining Deoxys-A to be Uber would be a mistake, since it does not overcentralize the new metagame. This would lead to arguments and debates later, when it could have been easily solved earlier. Note, this is just an example.
While this may be argued to be an “Ubers Lite”, let us examine what we mean by Ubers Lite. We mean that the power level will be lesser than that of Ubers, but larger than that of OU. However, another fundamental concept which we need to understand is that the so called “Uber Lite” power of one generation may be the “OU power level” of the next.
OU is decided by usage, but also indirectly by power, due to anything being perceived to be overly powerful and centralizing being banned to Ubers. Thus, OU has a certain power level, and it has to be accepted that the level changes between generations. Trying to set pre-defined limits on OU’s power range based on a previous generation would be an appeal to tradition, trying to make ourselves comfortable in a metagame we are used to, rather than trying to experiment with a new one.
So basically, starting with no bans for a 2-week testing period would solve a lot of these problems. We can run such a testing period by opening a thread where people can report what the new metagame is like, what is powerful, what was hyped incorrectly etc. If there is too much outcry about particular Pokemon being broken, we can test those specific Pokemon with whatever testing process we intend to use then.
If anybody wants to say that people would be discouraged from entering an “unbalanced “ metagame, I see no need to advertise a “balanced” metagame while we are in the process of testing at the beginning.]
tl;dr: Trying to have a pre-defined banlist for Gen 5 is like trying to preserve the DP metagame in a slightly modified form, which is not the aim of our tiers system. The real aim is to provide a competitive metagame, which does not have to be very similar to the previous generation’s metagame.
Yeah, it sums up why I feel we should start with no bans. I do support Species Clause, Evasion Clause and OHKO clause imposed at the starting though, but I guess that's a given.
And I think that Kyuremu won't. See how ambiguous this is?
So, in my opinion, let hell break loose.
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