Pwnemon: it's jas just the guy i wanted to see
Pwnemon: hi jas
Pwnemon: i vehemently oppose holding the vote for TL before the vote for TLT
jas61292: Why?
Pwnemon: because i don't want the chance of one vote influencing the other
Pwnemon: imagine this scenario: we hold the vote for TL, and Rising Dusk wins
Pwnemon: now you'd been a strong candidate for TLT, but after RD wins we're all like "oh shit, do we really want rd and jas to be working together"
Pwnemon: so it influences the vote, and you don't get a tlt spot
Pwnemon: of course you're a gracious guy so you'll just take it and run again next time
Birkal: pwnemon
Birkal: you say that but when else would it happen
Birkal: -__-
Pwnemon: but a) was that really fair and b) can we always ensure that they'll be a gracious guy
Pwnemon: and scenario #2:
Pwnemon: a similar scenario happens, but the votes aren't actually influenced at all
Pwnemon: but that doesn't stop someone from SAYING they are, massing up a lynchmob of five or six friends, and campaigning to ruin CAP
Pwnemon: i just don't want any accusations ever of bias or unfairness in the voting system
Birkal: we have bias and unfairness in many of our cap polls
jas61292: I don't see how any other way of doing this would be better
Pwnemon: i do
Pwnemon: hold the votes simultaneously
Birkal: that's a huge mess
Birkal: people vote in one poll and miss the other
Pwnemon: and Birkal - I know, but the natural bias of stupid people doing stupid things in a voting thread is different from the bias of higher-ups making a silly institution
Birkal: the last thing you want is people missing out on a vote for leadership
Pwnemon: that's why we have the PRC vote for the TL while the people vote for TLT
jas61292: PRC voting for anything makes no sense
jas61292: (except PR threads, of course)
Pwnemon: why not?
jas61292: The better question is "why?" There is no reason to not let the community vote, and so not doing so is kinda against the spirit of the project.
Pwnemon: fair enough - there were eleven people with a joindate less than a year ago who voted in the last TL poll, none of those names I recognized and none of whom i really expect to have reasonable knowledge of the candidates
Pwnemon: this constitutes approximately 1/6 of the total votes in that poll (67 total)
Birkal: the PRC should probably have more strict qualification requirements
Birkal: right now, they are very low
Birkal: I just don't think you can get the "perfect timing" whenever you do it
Birkal: I think that TL before TLT is the lesser of the evils
Pwnemon: i agree, but my point is having 1/6 of our voters have little knowledge of cap processes or even the candidates is a liiittle toxic
Pwnemon: the original decision was made in the spirit of "moar democracy iz moar betterz"
Pwnemon: and while this is true for the making of the actual pokemon – fanboy noobs love that part
Birkal: this has always been an "issue" with CAP
Birkal: not everyone is educated
Birkal: the thing is we do things as a community
Birkal: I don't see why that needs to change for leadership selection
Pwnemon: birkal because I don't believe we need a leader the people selected to have a pokemon the people made
Pwnemon: (interestingly, of the eleven people who i previously mentioned, ten put bmb as their first choice, while the other one put him second behind capefeather - meaning if none of them had voted, we wouldn't be having this discussion)
jas61292: Technically, pwnemon, he won by 11, so without that it would have been a tie. But I don't really think that means anything. Personally, the way I see it, is if that we are so insistant in sticking to the community way of making Pokemon, to this bad way of making good Pokemon, then why should this be any different. I remember some people saying about public TL vote that this is too important to screw up, which is why the PRC should do it, but to that I said, if it is
jas61292: so important, than it is most imperative that the community decides. That is what the project is all about.
Pwnemon: because to be frank the whole "drive-by voters are an important part of the process" only applies to the pokemon
Pwnemon: while i may feel left out if i don't get to vote for TL
Pwnemon: i highly doubt that pokenoob127 will feel the same
Pwnemon: as long as he gets to voice that the mon isn't horny enough for megahorn, he's happy
Pwnemon: basically there is, always has been, always will be, two sides to cAP
Pwnemon: there's "policy" and there's "pokemon"
jas61292: And to me the structure of TL is policy, but the filling of the position is pokemon
Pwnemon: and only the "pokemon" side has the high goal of being inclusive. the policy side has more important issues, like currying favor with Smogon elite, protecting the legitimacy of the project - and ensuring that the Pokemon side meets its goals
Pwnemon: just because the election of the TL is what kicks off the Project, don't let that fool you into thinking it's part of the making of the Pokemon; you'll see when you look that the TL is in fact engaged in the goals of policy
Pwnemon: because the goal of "pokemon" is just to make a pokemon
Pwnemon: and the goal of "policy" is to let that happen
Pwnemon: in the best way possible
jas61292: But once again I point to the PRC thread we had before CAP3. We, as a PRC, decided that public vote was a fine way to choose a TL. Why would we suddenly discard that decision? And don't say bmb. Yes, it is true that bmb would not have been TL had it been a PRC only vote, but if you are telling me that you could know then something like this would have happened, you would be lying. If you honestly think the PRC can read a group of excellent candidates better than the
jas61292: rest of the community, then I think you are just full of yourself.
Pwnemon: I'm not saying that the PRC could weed out the TL candidates better than the general community could, you're right. I myself put bmb ahead of cape in my vote. Nobody saw that "snap" coming. But what I am saying is that the PRC is a collection of the people actually interested in how the CAP project is facilitated, and not just in making the prettiest pokeyman - and thus they should be the ones concerned with the vote of the TL, a primary facilitative role, while the CAP community at large concerns themselves with the TLT, who will be in charge of the actual slating, etc.
Birkal: "The CAP project is community-based, and very democratic."
Birkal: doing something like a PRC vote is needlessly non-democratic
Pwnemon: needlessly? you sure?
Birkal: In the end, I think the best person for the job will be voted into the TL position
Birkal: regardless of if it's the PRC or the public voting
Pwnemon: I'd consider making sure the Pokemon creation runs as smooth as possible, and that we avoid PR disasters, as not needless
Pwnemon: and you can't deny - i just gave proof - that a prc vote would not always spawn the same results as a public vote
jas61292: While I don't approve of PRC voting for anything, using your logic, wouldn't it make more sense for the TLT to be the one with the PRC vote? They are the ones in the role of making important facilitative decisions, the TL just helps guide the concept.
Pwnemon: and now that we're introducing the TLT, the TL is really removed from all aspects of actual "Pokemon Creation," so they are of almost no interest to the people who just want to make Pokemon
Birkal: That is a very specific case scenario. I don't think you can honestly say "CAP4 wouldn't have happened if only the PRC voted on the TL"
capefeather: the TL and TLT candidates are screened anyway
Pwnemon: jas - the TL is still the figurehead of the project, the one who has the most responsibility, and the one who will be pinned if something goes down
jas61292: I mean, sure, its true that if the PRC voted for TL, I believe I would have won, and bmb only gotten a single vote. However, until I TL a process and do a better job, you can't say the PRC would have made a better choice. Sure, I don't think I would screw up, but neither did bmb.
Pwnemon: I'm saying that allowing a public vote did have honest and real consequences on who was voted in so saying "it doesn't matter" is obviously incorrect
jas61292: that is only a superficial form of "mattering" though. Unless you can show it had actual effects on the results of the project, beyond the TL vote itself, then I don't believe it really does matter.
Pwnemon: again, i can't prove that CAP4 would or wouldn't have happened. I can honestly say I don't /think/ it would have happened - as it stands it was a perfect storm of all things going wrong at once, culminating in weak armor being the straw that broke the camel's back
Pwnemon: but what I can say is that for something that has more of a role in maintaining PR and keeping the process running smoothly than in actually creating the pokemon, it seems only natural that the PRC be the one to vote on the TL, and not the community at large - and having a group of people more familiar with the candidates can only help, not hurt
Pwnemon: furthermore, it fixes instantly the problem of one vote affecting the other as they can run simultaneously with no worry
(23 minutes elapse)
Pwnemon: any closing remarks, jas? If not, I think i'll just post this log to the thread
jas61292: Not really. I would probably just be restating what I already said
Pwnemon: fair enough, up you go log