Metagame USUM Monotype Metagame Discussion

Just gonna tag smub vs quoting.

You have lots of good points.

The never being able to save ice/rock is so so old we all (old farts at least) get it. Its mentioned in the op, like it or not we are assuming thats impossible / too much work. I wasn't asking for that in my post.

I would say grass is viable, but it also has a very minimal meaning to my original post so lets not fight over it, you can say its not and I'll just nod my head haha. My post was just asking, how are we measuring how balanced a metagame is? Are YOU, smub, happy with the current meta? I see maybe 6-7 really viable types (less than half of all types).

I'm not even sure what the definition of balanced is in monotype but people throw that word around as if it were their first. My grandstanding statements were there to evoke some thought, scizor assassinates fairy. I wasn't using them to get anything on steel banned or to say there is zero counterplay. I'm asking do you care that those matchups are rough. If ground was a bad type, and zydog made it viable, would you like to see it unbanned? Or is it a case of kyurem-w and it just makes some matchups so braindead unbearable that it feels more like a coinflip. If it looks like it is going to make matches braindead coinflips, will you even suspect it without trying it out first? How far away from braindead approaching easy do we need to get for it to be called balanced? If you or someone else could fill me in that'd be great.

I'll put my glasses on to see past celesteela if you're that worried about me thanks, I'm sure if I ran into it I'd end up in a hospital. Although, I would still like to see it gone. Mwuhahaha!

EDIT: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ous-tiering-policy-framework-read-and-understand-this.3552154/ , my questions were answered here for the most part.
 
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I'm sorry, but a lot of this post is just filled with false equivalencies and general misinformation. First, even if by some blessing instance Scizor would get banned, that won't stop Ice and Rock from being awful types, since their inherent flaws and bad metagame matchups don't stop at Scizor. And even then, none of these types simply roll over and autolose brainlessly to Scizor. Starting with Fairy(which is undoubtedly one of the best types in the metagame), I have a hard time figuring out how Scizor is able to just win vs Fairy when the type has mons like Tapu Koko, Babiri Berry Clefable, and Klefki, all of which can either completely remove Mega Scizor, or do a significant job chipping it down for a teammate. Moving on to Rock, Alolan Golem is capable of trapping and removing both defensive and offensive variants(albeit needing Sticky Web support for offensive variants, which Steel isn't gonna be easily removing without risking a 50-50). Now for Ice, offensive Mega Scizor variants actually don't KO Cloyster with a +2 Bullet Punch even after Stealth Rock, and Cloyster will more than often be faster since Mega Scizors more often than not run Adamant. After surviving this Bullet Punch, Cloyster can fire back with an unboosted Hydro Vortex, which still does a significant crapton, placing it within range of Avalugg's Rocky Helmet or even Alolan Sandslash:

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 144-169 (59.7 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
144 SpA Cloyster Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scizor-Mega: 204-240 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(not even factoring in rocks, which can at times put it within hail damage or Mamoswine Ice Shard range without needing to risk Alolaslash or Avalugg)


There are of course other factors, such as Aurora Veil as well as Wisping with Rotom-F. Rotom-F in particular can actually choose whether it wants to speed creep Adamant or Jolly Mega Scizor without moving a single EV, and each correspondent spread lives a +2 BP after rocks and can fire off a Wisp:

Adamant: +2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 92+ Def Rotom-Frost: 189-223 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Jolly: +2 252 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 92 Def Rotom-Frost: 189-223 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yet again not factoring in Aurora Veil


Onto defensive variants, both Lapras and Walrein can be EVed to outpace these variants so that they can't freely U-turn for needless chip damage. So unless the Steel player wants their Mega Scizor to catch approximately ten million from a Specs HP Fire, they're gonna wanna hard switch into Celesteela more often than not, the one mon on Steel that doesn't particularly fear coming in on Lapras/Walrein. There's also of course Rotom-F, which takes even less from these variants after a Wisp and can at times take an opportunity to Pain Split for even more chip damage.

With all this being said, of course Ice v Steel is still gonna be incredibly hellish for Ice; that should honestly go without saying. But to suggest that Scizor just mindlessly clicks BP vs Ice, Rock, or Fairy is just false, and simultaneously creates a somewhat false equivalency with Zygarde 10% and the drastic impact both Band and DD sets in particular have against types like Electric, Poison and Steel to name a few.

Since you already pointed out how Steel v Fighting is by no means in Steel's favor at all, I won't go any further into that. I will however go into Autotomize Celesteela in general, which is an incredibly mediocre set held back by being outsped by a wide variety of Scarfers in the metagame, and the fact that even offensive Steel teams generally prefer AV. Saying that it autowins vs Grass literally carries 0 weight since Grass already possesses an unfavorable matchup against Steel either way, so there's no real point running an inferior set just to further deal with an advantageous matchup. Also Grass is far from viable in the current metagame despite having a slight handful of decent top-tier matchups like Water(made slightly worse with the rise of Sap Sipper Azu), Ground, and Fairy.

Oh yeah, and Celesteela doesn't just immediately win vs Ground. With Lando-I's Gravity, Dugtrio can actually trap and severely dent it with Earthquake, leaving it too low to even check anything else outside of Hippowdon. If its Sash is still intact it picks up a rather easy 2HKO. So to say Steel has even an easy matchup let a lone a guaranteed one through merit of having Celesteela is just factually incorrect.

So maybe if you saw past how much you hate Celesteela(mentioned at the very end), you'd realize that the metagame has done a rather effective job adapting to Steel's playstyle, and is not by any means pushed to the extent that Zygarde 10% was. Also I don't really see what other types can fit into this "uncompetitive" argument in the current metagame, and no extra example was even brought forward, so I'm not sure what the point of mentioning that was.
Although I do agree that Zygarde is better at completely destroying types than Scizor, I do kind of feel like you have gone into overkill of trying to prove Scizor as worse than it is.

I can also list things that beat Zygarde
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 332-392 (92.7 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 300-356 (83.7 - 99.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Shuca Berry Heatran: 254-302 (65.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Celesteela Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 264-312 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

The problem is that Zygarde with other Pokemon supporting it makes it completely broken. An example being Dugtrio to trap Tapu Bulu or Seis to check Greninja. Sure you can not just lead Scizor and beat everything but neither can you vs competant players that use Zygarde. I'm not saying that Zygarde isn't broken or that Scizor is, its just your method of making Scizor look bad when it does tear through many types is a bit ridiculous.

I have a hard time figuring out how Scizor is able to just win vs Fairy when the type has mons like Tapu Koko, Babiri Berry Clefable, and Klefki, all of which can either completely remove Mega Scizor, or do a significant job chipping it down for a teammate.
Tapu Koko: Steel switch in: Excadrill / Ferrothorn || Bug switch in: N/A
Babiri Berry Clefable: Steel Switch in: Heatran / Celesteela || Bug switch in: Volcarona / Arquanid
Klefki: Steel Switch in: Heatran / Ferrothorn || Bug Switch in: Galvantula / Araquanid

Outside of Tapu Koko each listed Pokemon has a relatively free switch in on every type to deal with your checks to Mega Scizor. Babiri Clefable is used less now that Ribombee gets Sticky Webs as well now so that is less of an issue.

Moving on to Rock, Alolan Golem is capable of trapping and removing both defensive and offensive variants(albeit needing Sticky Web support for offensive variants, which Steel isn't gonna be easily removing without risking a 50-50).
Assuming you get up Sticky Webs and then have a scenario where webs are still up and Scizor is in allowing you to get a free switch to Golem then yes it would deal with it. However any competent player would sacrifice Excadrill in order to remove webs if Golem was a threat to Scizor, considering once Webs are gone and Golem is neutralized, Scizor just wins.

Now for Ice, offensive Mega Scizor variants actually don't KO Cloyster with a +2 Bullet Punch even after Stealth Rock, and Cloyster will more than often be faster since Mega Scizors more often than not run Adamant. After surviving this Bullet Punch, Cloyster can fire back with an unboosted Hydro Vortex, which still does a significant crapton, placing it within range of Avalugg's Rocky Helmet or even Alolan Sandslash
+2 144 SpA Cloyster Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 291-343 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This is assuming you get the 50/50 right with the Protect. there is no need to let Scizor take damage when the defensive backbone is there to make Scizor pretty much untouchable.

There are of course other factors, such as Aurora Veil as well as Wisping with Rotom-F. Rotom-F in particular can actually choose whether it wants to speed creep Adamant or Jolly Mega Scizor without moving a single EV, and each correspondent spread lives a +2 BP after rocks and can fire off a Wisp
Relevant switch ins to Rotom-F include: Heatran, Ferrothorn and Magnezone
with Ferrothorn being the only one that hates Wisp, it doesn't seem like you're making a very strong point with this one at all.
"My counter to Mega Scizor is a move that powers up its team mates super effective attacks" - Smub

Onto defensive variants, both Lapras and Walrein can be EVed to outpace these variants so that they can't freely U-turn for needless chip damage. So unless the Steel player wants their Mega Scizor to catch approximately ten million from a Specs HP Fire they're gonna wanna hard switch into Celesteela more often than not, the one mon on Steel that doesn't particularly fear coming in on Lapras/Walrein
This is a better point as Steel does not appreciate Water-types as much. However, you put a nail in your own coffin at this point, you literally mentioned that it has team mate support to prevent Mega Scizor from dying.

The added point when mentioning Ice as well is that they get dunked on by Stealth Rock, so each time Heatran comes in on Rotom or Celesteela comes in on Walrein and forces a switch, its pretty much 1/4 health done, so Ice's chances to punish steel is limited.

But to suggest that Scizor just mindlessly clicks BP vs Ice, Rock, or Fairy is just false, and simultaneously creates a somewhat false equivalency with Zygarde 10% and the drastic impact DD sets in particular have against types like Electric, Poison and Steel to name a few.
Scizor honestly does spam Bullet Punch just as much as Zygarde can spam Thousand Arrows. Electric has offensive pressure to deal with Zygarde but can be easily countered by team mates, similar to how Scizor is helped. Steel has Counter Skarm to prevent mindless clicking as well as shuca Heatran, which I know will be slated as an unset however, if the meta did develop with Zygarde this creativity would be more common. Once again to reiterate I am not trying to justify a Scizor ban or a Zygarde unban, this is just giving Scizor the justice after you tried to make it look mediocre.

The reason Mega Scizor is so good is that it is paired with other amazing Pokemon that give it free reign to offensively demolish types, sure it can't be a lead Pokemon vs a type and 6-0 but it can be pivoting in on during a game and can sweep teams if done well. On the other hand Zygarde can do the same vs different types. The issue with what some players see to what others see is the types that are effected. Zygarde destroys Poison, which this gen has become a juggernaut defensive type in this meta however the Toxapex, Alolan Muk, Mega Venusaur core is completely undone in that match up making Ground beat it rather easily. As Poison is such a good type versus a lot of other types but bad versus Zygarde it puts players in to an uncomfortable 50/50 choice of either picking Poison to have a better chance vs types such as Fairy and Water but having the chance of pretty much clicking x versus Ground. The counter argument to Scizor is that well it forces that same logic with Rock and Ice, however, a lot of other types already beat them quite easily anyway, so banning Scizor won't make Rock and Ice a million times better. Instead if you look at the bigger picture, it frees up Fairy to dominate even more than usual, Latios and Latias wont have to fear priority anymore from steel teams. Once Scizor is gone, people will only start complaining that Fairy beats Steel.

Anyway that was a long rant. The point is nomadderwhat was trying to open up a topic of discussion and was not at all close minded, however smub was kind of rude and tried shutting them down with overkill statements about Scizor not being as good as it is. Smub be nicer.
 
Hello,

I would also like to share my 2 cents on how ice can defeat mega scizor (even if some of them might be niche). I would like to point out that I agree a lot with the rotom-frost and lapras/walrein as ways to deal with mega scizor. However, the issue I have come across is that there are times the steel user will swap into heatran on the hp fire leaving you in a terrible position for later on in the match. Which almost "forces" you to go with a hydro pump or Surf which doesn't do as much to either mega scizor nor celesteela obviously.
Against (OU Swords Dance) mega scizor:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 219-258 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 316-376 (92.1 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Walrein Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 234-276 (68.2 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Walrein Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 340-404 (99.1 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Against (Monotype Defensive) mega scizor:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Scizor-Mega: 165-195 (48.1 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Scizor-Mega: 244-288 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Walrein Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Scizor-Mega: 178-210 (51.8 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Walrein Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 212+ SpD Scizor-Mega: 260-308 (75.8 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So as you can see neither lapras nor walrein can kill scizor with hydro leaving you with the issue of taking +2 bullet punches or taking 1 and making it nearly meaningless to swap out due to stealth rocks (if they are already up on your side and do not have a spinner or defogger available) as you would be left with very little health and with the speed tiers of both walrein and lapras you will not be outspeeding a lot of mons. For reference here is the dmg calc for a +2 Bullet punch from mega scizor. I also included u-turn since I saw that mentioned somewhere.
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Walrein: 259-306 (61.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Scizor-Mega U-turn vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Walrein: 303-357 (71.6 - 84.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 288-340 (71.8 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Scizor-Mega U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 336-396 (83.7 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now I want to point out a few examples of ways I have dealt with mega scizor.
Since they have been mentioned already and I have used lapras, walrein, cloyster and rotom-frost as well as a way to deal with mega scizor I will not include them in the list.

1. You have standard rocky helmet and roar avalugg. This is a very solid way to deal with mega scizor without having to sack off half of your team in order to complete the task.
2. I have utilized Kyurem-Black as a way to handle mega scizor. I placed a babiri berry on Kyu-B allowing it to survive the +2 bullet punch and dealing a ton of damage with hp fire. (Calc Below) With this I find that I do not have the same issue as you find with lapras and walrein as terravolt allows the hp fire to ignore the flash fire from heatran which breaks the balloon on heatran if it has one allowing for earth power to finish it off later.
252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 272-320 (79.3 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Babiri Berry Kyurem-Black: 240-283 (61.3 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3. This is extremely niche but has worked a lot more than I have expected. It is a simple sash counter. (much like alakazam does on psychic) I used sash counter weavile. I would get into a situation where mega scizor would get up to +2 and think that they can sweep through and I bring out the weavile allowing the sash to be broken and counter to destroy mega scizor. Now obviously this does not work all the time but I just wanted to throw it in there since I was listing things that have worked before.
4. Very similar to the sash counter is the sash endeavor ice shard mamoswine. Same concept as with weavile allow the sash to be broken, use endeavor and kill the mega scizor with ice shard.
5. More RNG based is allowing a sash froslass cursed body to disable the bullet punch on mega scizor. You, in theory, have two chances to disable the bullet punch since the sash has to be broken. Now this is very risky since if it doesn't get disabled then you just lost a mon but since froslass is usually used as a lead it can allow you to set up hazards with spikes at the very least and as stated earlier, you have avalugg to stop scizor in its tracks and roar it out worst case scenario.
6. Jynx. Yeah I know it's a jynx but it does have a good special attack and combined with hp fire it deals 252+ SpA Jynx Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 260-308 (75.8 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Now with its horrid defense stat it has to run sash.

Now the obvious theme here is the sash. This leads to things possibly going horribly if hazards are down on the ground and breaking your sashes. Luckily for ice they got rotom-frost, cloyster, avalugg, and alolan sandslash as hazard removers to help with this dilemma. A user on showdown also spoke to me regarding sitrus berry articuno to help out (as it gains health when swapping in on the rocks). I have yet to try it out but I wanted to throw it out there just for contemplation if anyone reading this wants to give the bird some love and try it themselves.

Overall I would say that while mega scizor is quite a problem for ice, there are plenty of ways for ice to handle the mon. In regards to celesteela, the best ways I have been able to handle it is with either rotom-frost or kyu-b (fusion bolt of course as well as babiri stops heavy slam from doing a lot of dmg if mega scizor was already handled prior to kyu-b facing off against celesteela). Other than that, I find that lapras and walrein are solid checks to it as well as taunt froslass handling the seed protect varient to a point. I'm still working on a sure way to defeat that mon consistently.

So, yeah there's my two cents on how I have seen ice deal with mega scizor and the alleged "bullet punch sweep" of the type.

Best,

Donut
 
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honestly, the "ice and rock is bad types and lacks defensive backbones" is just a bad argument and adds nothing but shut down others. Scizor is by far, BY FAR the most dangerous threat to ice and rock. Yes, ice and rock are bad, but they do have reasonable defensive/offensive answer to anything not named Scizor. Heck, avalugg performs against mega-metagross better than it does against scizor if not for hax. Plus, priority technician bullet punch means RK is useless, while other threats can at least be RK-ed.

that being said, most counterplay to Scizor is using sub-optimal mons and easily taken advantage of. It's 2018, no one is lured by Babiri Clef or Babiri Kyurem, and you need to sack one pokemon for those to come in. Koko can only switch in only once as well. In contrast, Scizor can come in multiple times easily against these match-ups. Counter weavile (or any sash counterplay) is really niche and unreliable. Counter zam works because of magic guard, or else you can argue <insert any banned mons> has counterplay because opposing team can use sash ...

to sum up, Scizor can't come in at turn 1, click bullet punch and 6-0 team. But with decent support, which takes barely any skill, and it can easily handle other teams, including popular type like Fairy.

Btw, I agree with everything DBW says, except that whether a pokemon should be banned depends on the current meta, not any future meta.
 
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honestly, the "ice and rock is bad types and lacks defensive backbones" is just a bad argument and adds nothing but shut down others. Scizor is by far, BY FAR the most dangerous threat to ice and rock. Yes, ice and rock are bad, but they do have reasonable defensive/offensive answer to anything not named Scizor. Heck, avalugg performs against mega-metagross better than it does against scizor if not for hax. Plus, priority technician bullet punch means RK is useless, while other threats can at least be RK-ed.

that being said, most counterplay to Scizor is using sub-optimal mons and easily taken advantage of. It's 2018, no one is lured by Babiri Clef or Babiri Kyurem, and you need to sack one pokemon for those to come in. Koko can only switch in only once as well. In contrast, Scizor can come in multiple times easily against these match-ups. Counter weavile (or any sash counterplay) is really niche and unreliable. Counter zam works because of magic guard, or else you can argue <insert any banned mons> has counterplay because opposing team can use sash ...

to sum up, Scizor can't come in at turn 1, click bullet punch and 6-0 team. But with decent support, which takes barely any skill, and it can easily handle other teams, including popular type like Fairy.

Btw, I agree with everything DBW says, except that whether a pokemon should be banned depends on the current meta, not any future meta.
Rock has 2 reasonable answers to scizor. Rhyperior and golem A. Both can survive +2 bp easily and ko. I wouldn't call them sub optimal as rhyperior helps against normal (mega lop and raptor), fighting, ground (beats exca and many of their other mons), steel of course, and is generally good for taking out 1 threatening physical mon that doesn't have a grass or water move. golem A is good for trapping annoying steel mons which happen to be on a lot of types. Lapras isn't that bad and if you want a pretty viable mon to do it
0 SpA Cloyster Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor-Mega: 152-180 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
248+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 72-85 (29.8 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
hydro pump doesn't even hit much anyway.

Saying ice is a bad type is a good argument because they are the worst type. They don't have a reasonable answer for a lot of things for instance power gem minior, cloyser, omastar, superpower mega swampert, automize cele, kommo, terrakin, keldo, double dance rhyperior. Lots of those aren't even decent and they still destroy ice. Even if mega scizor was banned mega aggron would murder ice. If there is any type that rocks and roar would beat it would be ice. The problem is not scizor he is a very good mon on a very good type whose stab is super effective to worst type.

I'm tired of people bringing up "skill". There is no skill in a lot of things. It doesn't take skill to set screens then use bdrum with azu then aqua jet everything. It doesn't take skill to spam scald. It does require some skill to know when to sd with scizor because people run hp fire on the most random things.
 
I think a lot of people have misunderstood what Eien meant in his initial post on Zygarde when he said "it takes no skill".

When someone claims that a Pokemon, Type, or tactic "takes no skill to use", what they mean is that "there's no reasonable counterplay" for said Pokemon, Type, or tactic. They are not saying that the pokemon can be used mindlessly without exercising any critical thought, but rather that, assuming competent play, the user need not take risks or make plays to succeed with this pokemon (in a given matchup).

Now really look over all the Pokemon, Types, and tactics that people have claimed "take no skill" to use so far in this thread: is that really true of most, if any of them, outside a few match-ups?

For example, Mega Scizor. There have already been essays on the reasonable counterplay available to Rock and Fairy to deal with Mega Scizor: Band Golem-Alola, Babiri Clefable, Foul Play Klefki: that force a Steel player to think critically about how to give Scizor the correct set up opportunity and remove these checks (something that cannot be done reliably).

You might say checking Scizor-m alone doesn't stop it from winning, as Steel has excellent support to manage these checks, but it opens the floor for Fairy and Rock to utilize their own support; potent offensive threats that can pressure Steel such as Tapu Koko, Azumarill, Terrakion, and Tyranitar. To say either of these matchups "take no skill" is grossly reductive, and not at all comparable to the ridiculous pressure Zygarde put on types such as Poison, Electric, Fire, Rock or Steel.

The same is true of most of every Pokemon, Type, or tactic brought up so far; especially for Steel as a type. Reasonable counterplay exists for almost all of them, and is healthy for the metagame.
 
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Okay I'm going to step in and end this Zygarde vs Mega Scizor nonsense. I actually can't believe these two Pokémon are being compared. These absolutely awful "arguments" revolving around comparing a broken Pokémon to Mega Scizor have been around since ORAS, and they've not gotten any better. Comparing Mega Scizor to Zygarde shows a fundamental lack of understanding how Monotype works.

Types that are inherently weak to Steel are very weak to Mega Scizor. This is because it capitalizes on their weakness with a Technician-boosted super effective STAB priority attack that is supported by Swords Dance. It is very difficult to handle this if your type is naturally weak to Steel. However, Mega Scizor does not do anything exceptional. Almost all Steel-types are ridiculously good against Ice, Rock, and Fairy. What Mega Scizor does is exacerbate an already existing issue. For these types, as with all types in Monotype, it is crucial to bring checks to the Pokémon you are threatened by. Why on earth is it a problem that we have Babiri Berry Clefable or Alolan Golem? These are checks that beat Mega Scizor and Pokémon like it. We have always had these sorts of sets: ORAS Colbur Slowbro, Focus Sash + Counter Alakazam, Seismitoad, and many other Pokémon are specifically designed to beat one primary threat and they also happen to beat Pokémon that are like that threat. This is healthy metagame development. People are developing sets and teams that cover their natural weaknesses without hurting their team's viability. Compare this to the checks for banned Pokémon. Ridiculous sets made for the likes of ORAS Mega Sableye and Naganadel, and of course our very topic: Zygarde. How do you check Zygarde? You do not check it the way you check Ground-types because of Thousand Arrows. If you wish to check Zygarde, you are required to use an excessively specific set that has no outside viability if one even exists to begin with. This is not good metagame development. As a result, even comparing the two is just completely flawed from a teambuilding perspective.

Second issue is the absurd comment about how the council chooses which types are allowed to be good and which get thrown to the side. That is so far from the truth it hurts. Let's say for the sake of argument that we ban Mega Scizor. I am never one for theorymons, but let's all be really honest for one second. Ice and Rock still have no chance whatsoever of being relevant. This is tied in with the above point. You check Mega Scizor with a way to check Steel-types. The innate issue is that your type cannot handle offensive Steel-types, not that your type cannot handle Mega Scizor. On the complete other side, banning Zygarde makes these types go from literally unusable to viable. There's simply no comparison whatsoever that you can make here. The council does not arbitrarily favor any types, something that is in fact explicitly forbidden by the tiering philosophy. The way that Mega Scizor preys on types that are naturally weak to Steel cannot be compared to how Zygarde eliminates types that are weak to Thousand Arrows. We have and will always ban and not ban Pokémon that are too good as defined by the tiering philosophy regardless of what type they belong to. Almost all of the bans in Monotype hail from these types, which really makes one question where this ridiculous type bias argument comes from and why it is brought up over and over.

By the way, you're all misinterpreting the word I used: skill. If you have a standard and well-built Fairy team, you can absolutely outplay of outbuild Mega Scizor by virtue of skill. You cannot do that for Zygarde. The definition for skill is specified in the Smogon tiering framework that our tiering philosophy cites. I would appreciate it if we appropriately discussed these sorts of topics instead of poking at false definitions. As a side note, skill is one of the most important factors in tiering, so no, it won't stop being an important discussion when we discuss tiering.

If you believe you have a compelling argument for unbanning Zygarde, you are, as always, free to PM the Monotype council for review. This specific topic has run its course and some here in this thread, so I'm ending it here. Monotype has always been proud of its community involvement and allowing everyone to discuss suspects and bans here in our discussion thread. However, that is because we trust that the discussion will be rooted in reality. Feel free to discuss other bans along the previous topic, but Zygarde is off limits for the time being.
 
Looking back at a lot of the past early sumo bans it seems like the kart ban was mainly because of the dominance of mag+gross+kart steel. Kart v ground is the mu that was the most questionable given water has tons of options with the rising popularity of sap sipper azu as well as kingdra being able to beat kart and pex being able to switch into scarf. I'm mostly wondering if ground could possibly deal with a mono meta with kart.
 

roman

Banned deucer.
Looking back at a lot of the past early sumo bans it seems like the kart ban was mainly because of the dominance of mag+gross+kart steel. Kart v ground is the mu that was the most questionable given water has tons of options with the rising popularity of sap sipper azu as well as kingdra being able to beat kart and pex being able to switch into scarf. I'm mostly wondering if ground could possibly deal with a mono meta with kart.
ok water does not have "tons of options" as counterplay for kartana. this is completely false.

i feel like people are mistaking azu to be something that literally just beats all grass-types w/out exception but like this is completely overselling its niche on water teams. yes, azu counters a bunch of annoying grass types, notably ferrothorn, scarf bulu, etc. but by no means is azu going to be countering kartana. this mon literally has 181 attack and its secondary stab hits azu's poor physical bulk for neutral damage. to put this in perspective, azu is going to be getting 2hkod by unboosted smart strike consistently after some minor prior chip damage, effectively compromising your grass switch in after one maybe two correct predictions. this doesn't even take into account sets such as cb, sd lo, sd z move, etc that will definitely have some niche in monotype that use azu as set up bait or just completely smash it.

by the way something i'm finding less and less relevant for conversation here is kingdra. losing its only game in mwp out of almost fourty total along with no use in smogon exhibition isn't really compelling me to believe that it holds any sort of relevance for water, especially when you take into account how badly ss has been falling off this gen.

so yea azu isn't really good kartana counterplay at all, kingdra isn't getting enough usage / success to hold any relevance here and pex beats one possibly subpar set.

im not knowledgeable abt ground but all steel has to do is get literally 1 hazard up to beat out sash reversal dug and exca can't even ohko kart from full so chance of a re suspect seems slim.
 
ok water does not have "tons of options" as counterplay for kartana. this is completely false.

i feel like people are mistaking azu to be something that literally just beats all grass-types w/out exception but like this is completely overselling its niche on water teams. yes, azu counters a bunch of annoying grass types, notably ferrothorn, scarf bulu, etc. but by no means is azu going to be countering kartana. this mon literally has 181 attack and its secondary stab hits azu's poor physical bulk for neutral damage. to put this in perspective, azu is going to be getting 2hkod by unboosted smart strike consistently after some minor prior chip damage, effectively compromising your grass switch in after one maybe two correct predictions. this doesn't even take into account sets such as cb, sd lo, sd z move, etc that will definitely have some niche in monotype that use azu as set up bait or just completely smash it.

by the way something i'm finding less and less relevant for conversation here is kingdra. losing its only game in mwp out of almost fourty total along with no use in smogon exhibition isn't really compelling me to believe that it holds any sort of relevance for water, especially when you take into account how badly ss has been falling off this gen.

so yea azu isn't really good kartana counterplay at all, kingdra isn't getting enough usage / success to hold any relevance here and pex beats one possibly subpar set.

im not knowledgeable abt ground but all steel has to do is get literally 1 hazard up to beat out sash reversal dug and exca can't even ohko kart from full so chance of a re suspect seems slim.

Balance water always revenges with scarf gren no matter the kart set but you’re right about azu being setup fodder for non choiced variants of kart. Hp fire Duggy is an option(usually I would say that is an unhealthy adaptation but we already have sludge wave for bulu popping up so mixed isn’t so far fetched).

Also why is SS failing? At least on paper ss is really threatining I just haven’t seen it’s use as much as other water variants. No offense is happy facing a specs kingdra in rain and really its only terrible mus would be like ice or grass

Edit: Thanks dbw it seems compared to oras Good breakers are only on a few types
 
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Balance water always revenges with scarf gren no matter the kart set but you’re right about azu being setup fodder for non choiced variants of kart. Hp fire Duggy is an option(usually I would say that is an unhealthy adaptation but we already have sludge wave for bulu popping up so mixed isn’t so far fetched).

Also why is SS failing? At least on paper ss is really threatining I just haven’t seen it’s use as much as other water variants. No offense is happy facing a specs kingdra in rain and really its only terrible mus would be like ice or grass
Swift Swim struggles to break so many types now, Balance Water, Grass, Poison, Ice, Steel and Flying
Electric now has Alolan Raichu that outspeeds everything and Ground has play arounds with both Gastro and Seis being viable.
Fairy also has sticky webs now meaning that Tapu Koko outspeeds even Jolly Swamp in the rain.
The best match ups it has is against Dragon and Bug really.

Edit: I missed out normal, I probably missed out some other details but these are some good points.
 
On a different note for all of my ice users out there I got some cool sets for you.

Sandslash-Alola @ Life Orb or Chopple berry
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Speed / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock

And

Kyurem-Black @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

Alolash is the only ice mon with both rapid spin and rocks and with life orb it can threaten fairy one of the most used types in the meta. Rocks free up mamo to be whatever you want but I recommend band.

Fightinium kyurem helps immensely in the steel mu, being able to heavily dent scizor, beat heatran with balloon and ohko ferro. Generally making kyurem able to take out one mon no matter what doubles your opponent makes and freeing up cloy for a potential late game sweep.

Some replays with a team around these two

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-685481468 V steel and a little haxy w leech seed miss but you get the point of the team

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-685506572 V fire a misplay with torkoal imo but good game

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-686857383 V steel I lost this one but it shows off the sets and it was only an L because of a roll
 
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On a different note for all of my ice users out there I got some cool sets for you.

Sandslash-Alola @ Life Orb or Chopple berry
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Speed / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock

And

Kyurem-Black @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

Alolash is the only ice mon with both rapid spin and rocks and with life orb it can threaten fairy one of the most used types in the meta. Rocks free up mamo to be whatever you want but I recommend band.

Fightinium kyurem helps immensely in the steel mu, being able to heavily dent scizor, beat heatran with balloon and ohko ferro. Generally making kyurem able to take out one mon no matter what doubles your opponent makes and freeing up cloy for a potential late game sweep.

Some replays with a team around these two

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-685481468 V steel and a little haxy w leech seed miss but you get the point of the team

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-685506572 V fire a misplay with torkoal imo but good game

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-686857383 V steel I lost this one but it shows off the sets and it was only an L because of a roll
I think you should put this on the Monotype Creative / Underrated Sets thread here
 
On a different note for all of my ice users out there I got some cool sets for you.

Sandslash-Alola @ Life Orb or Chopple berry
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Speed / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock

And

Kyurem-Black @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Rash Nature
- Focus Blast
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Fusion Bolt

Alolash is the only ice mon with both rapid spin and rocks and with life orb it can threaten fairy one of the most used types in the meta. Rocks free up mamo to be whatever you want but I recommend band.

Fightinium kyurem helps immensely in the steel mu, being able to heavily dent scizor, beat heatran with balloon and ohko ferro. Generally making kyurem able to take out one mon no matter what doubles your opponent makes and freeing up cloy for a potential late game sweep.

Some replays with a team around these two

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-685481468 V steel and a little haxy w leech seed miss but you get the point of the team

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-685506572 V fire a misplay with torkoal imo but good game

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-686857383 V steel I lost this one but it shows off the sets and it was only an L because of a roll
I wasn't gonna make a post about this until after I had tested it out a bit, but now that I have I can give my thoughts on this.

Stealth Rock on Alolan Sandslash definitely has some slight merit from my experiences with it. Similarly to Swords Dance variants, it usually gets its setup opportunities through forced switches. However, its nice physical bulk also lets it set up in front of Pokemon like Armaldo and Skarmory. Having a Stealth Rocker that can reliably force out Armaldo is definitely nice for the Bug matchup, but the larger merit in Stealth Rock Alolaslash is with what set you want on Mamoswine. Breeze Sea did point out how Mamoswine would be free to run a wallbreaking set, but I feel like Choice Scarf would be a better option. When paired with Weavile, it can revenge kill a good number of threats outside of hail, ranging from Mega Lopunny, Tapu Koko, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Gallade, etc. It's better over Scarf Rotom-F mainly because Rotom-F just doesn't have as much power backing it, and it doesn't quite have the room for everything it would want in a Scarf set(Trick, Volt Switch, Thunderbolt, Defog, Blizzard, Hidden Power Fire). However, despite some of these benefits, there are some issues with Stealth Rock Alolaslash. Not having Icicle Crash means that it can't really stop things like Zapdos or Mandibuzz from Defogging in front of it. There's also the fact that Mamoswine can additionally offer emergency blanket checking, priority, and a better speed tier outside of hail for things like Heatran and Bisharp. While it isn't quite as good as Stealth Rock Mamoswine or Piloswine, it definitely has its advantages.



Oh yeah, and another thing, Chople Berry is garbage. It still fails to live a hit from any relevant Fighting type without running some really terrible spread. Life Orb is always the best item choice for the set.

As for Fightinium Z Kyurem-B, I feel like Weavile can make the set less needed. For example, you won't need to nail Balloon Heatran when Weavile can make sure its Balloon is gone with Pursuit. Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn are obviously both hit hard by a LO Hidden Power Fire, and if Weavile can Knock Off Porygon2's Eviolite, LO Ice Beam always 2HKOs. I suppose you can choose not to pair it with Weavile, but even then, I'm not sure hitting a few select threats would be enough to justify its use over LO.

Also, Kyurem-B needs to run Naive. You don't OHKO Ferrothorn with an All-Out Pummeling, and you don't even OHKO Heatran with a regular Focus Blast. So in the end, it's just getting outsped by Nidoking and Vincune for no reason:

Ferrothorn
Naive: 252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Ferrothorn: 268-316 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rash: 252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Ferrothorn: 294-348 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Heatran
Naive: 252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rash: 252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 260-306 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
I wasn't gonna make a post about this until after I had tested it out a bit, but now that I have I can give my thoughts on this.

Stealth Rock on Alolan Sandslash definitely has some slight merit from my experiences with it. Similarly to Swords Dance variants, it usually gets its setup opportunities through forced switches. However, its nice physical bulk also lets it set up in front of Pokemon like Armaldo and Skarmory. Having a Stealth Rocker that can reliably force out Armaldo is definitely nice for the Bug matchup, but the larger merit in Stealth Rock Alolaslash is with what set you want on Mamoswine. Breeze Sea did point out how Mamoswine would be free to run a wallbreaking set, but I feel like Choice Scarf would be a better option. When paired with Weavile, it can revenge kill a good number of threats outside of hail, ranging from Mega Lopunny, Tapu Koko, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Gallade, etc. It's better over Scarf Rotom-F mainly because Rotom-F just doesn't have as much power backing it, and it doesn't quite have the room for everything it would want in a Scarf set(Trick, Volt Switch, Thunderbolt, Defog, Blizzard, Hidden Power Fire). However, despite some of these benefits, there are some issues with Stealth Rock Alolaslash. Not having Icicle Crash means that it can't really stop things like Zapdos or Mandibuzz from Defogging in front of it. There's also the fact that Mamoswine can additionally offer emergency blanket checking, priority, and a better speed tier outside of hail for things like Heatran and Bisharp. While it isn't quite as good as Stealth Rock Mamoswine or Piloswine, it definitely has its advantages.



Oh yeah, and another thing, Chople Berry is garbage. It still fails to live a hit from any relevant Fighting type without running some really terrible spread. Life Orb is always the best item choice for the set.

As for Fightinium Z Kyurem-B, I feel like Weavile can make the set less needed. For example, you won't need to nail Balloon Heatran when Weavile can make sure its Balloon is gone with Pursuit. Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn are obviously both hit hard by a LO Hidden Power Fire, and if Weavile can Knock Off Porygon2's Eviolite, LO Ice Beam always 2HKOs. I suppose you can choose not to pair it with Weavile, but even then, I'm not sure hitting a few select threats would be enough to justify its use over LO.

Also, Kyurem-B needs to run Naive. You don't OHKO Ferrothorn with an All-Out Pummeling, and you don't even OHKO Heatran with a regular Focus Blast. So in the end, it's just getting outsped by Nidoking and Vincune for no reason:

Ferrothorn
Naive: 252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Ferrothorn: 268-316 (76.1 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Rash: 252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Ferrothorn: 294-348 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Heatran
Naive: 252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 236-278 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rash: 252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 260-306 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Icicle crash is also an option instead of iron head because alolash can still hit most of Fairy super effectively while being able to pressure mandi and zap(although kyurem usually baits them in bluffing scarf and secures the ohko). Scarf mamo is good on a different type of team than the one I was using, one with weavile for the normal, psychic, and ghost mus. My worst neutral mu with this team was definitely bug purely because volcarona is such a threat which is why sash rock blast cloy or possibly a rock slide alolash could be useful.


This set is interesting because it’s very easy to bluff the scarf and with the addition of fighting coverage kyurem has fewer switch ins as well as the ability to kill p2 after ice beam chip. Also it has more sustainability than lo unless you are running roost. I find rash is more helpful for kyu to run as a breaker without the life orb boost(water is not a threat and earth power on rash 2hkos pex more often). Chopple is an option if you want to delete terrakion early game.
 
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Chopple is an option if you want to delete terrakion early game.
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Sandslash-Alola: 336-396 (115.4 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Sandslash-Alola: 336-396 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just saying you need an unrealistic amount of defensive investment to survive anything from Terrakion. Chople Berry is a really bad item on it and it doesn’t actually help you live anything.
 
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Sandslash-Alola: 336-396 (115.4 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Sandslash-Alola: 336-396 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Just saying you need an unrealistic amount of defensive investment to survive anything from Terrakion. Chople Berry is a really bad item on it and it doesn’t actually help you live anything.
I'm pretty sure what Breeze Sea meant was to use Chople Berry on Kyurem-B to KO Terrakion:

252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Kyurem-Black: 195-231 (49.8 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-Black Earth Power vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 304-358 (94.1 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
 

Havens

WGI World Champion
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Not really important, but the base crit ratio was discovered to have been reduced: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...chanics-research.3586701/page-74#post-7653694

I guess if anything can be taken from this, setup opportunities can be taken with less caution considering that you have an even lesser chance of getting crit, but then again this game works in mysterious ways.

Chople Berry on Kyurem-B is incredibly subpar for it to hold, and should never forego the likes of common items such as LO and Icium Z, also considering the lessened viability of Fighting this generation; The most common Fighting types outside of thier usage on Fighting teams would be Mega Gallade and Keldeo, and even then I'm certain that Ice would have more reliable options to counter fighting moves without Chople anyways (Ninetales-Alola).
 

Moosical

big yikes
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
For those interested in type usage statistics for the latest team tour (Monotype Winter Premier), you can check out the link below. While there is a much smaller number of battles than there was in MPL due to the lack of a bo3 format, it does provide some interesting insight to usage in a competitive tournament. Please keep in mind that during the first two weeks of the tournament, Naganadel was still being suspected, so the usage for those two weeks is quite different than the following seven weeks.

For anyone too lazy to look at the link, out of 160 played games, Water has the most usage at 14.4%, followed by Psychic at 13.3%, Steel at 12.2%, and Flying at 10%.

The spreadsheet can be found here.
 
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Garou

Banned deucer.
I thought fairy would have more usage than it did which is kinda interesting imo as i still feel like its a great type. Its not like it didn't get it a decent amount don't get me wrong, but compared to like other types which I think its on somewhat equal footings to in terms of its overall viability (such as flying or psychic) it kinda surprised me. While I guess that flying and psychic have more diversity and fairy is really weak to steel, it has a new archetype instead of only regular bo with ribombee webs which is kinda underrated imo, and I kinda hope it gets more usage in upcoming mono tours like mpl and stuff. idk it just leaves me feeling like fairy is under appreciated i really think its a good type which can contend with top types, just got a crippling weakness to steel and poison but its match ups versus water (which was most used type) and flying are really nice so idk but with webs fairy being an option i really do feel like it can make a splash in tours but yea just my initial thoughts as soon as i saw those usage stats i guess.
 

Havens

WGI World Champion
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Well, this has been dead for a while, so lets spark some discussion shall we...

What are everyones' thoughts of how the metagame stands right now? Is there any mon or type that feels like that it's pushing the edge, do you find it to be quite balanced, or is it staling?
 
Probably the most balanced metagame we have ever had. Also i wouldn’t necessarily say it’s stale, Leru’s undefeated MWP run with whack teams proves that its still possible to innovate and keep creating more viable sets and cores for tournament play. I think there are a few pokemon such as tapu koko and pex that restrict building quite a bit but calling them unhealthy or broken would be unjustified.

all we need to do right now is wait for something to change in the metagame (the unreleased electric mon?) and also ban the weebs.
:blobthumbsup:
 
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