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Victim of the Week: Week 12, Lileep (See Post #109)
- Thread starter TUO
- Start date
Delver
I got the runs like Jagger
Firstly thanks Hawkstar for continuing the thread. Secondly I was going to mention what Vader did - Scraggy is fun because it can set up in her face despite the SE Hidden Power on most (if not all) kits.
In my experience, a Scarf Misdreavus acts as a good check to non-scarfed-Missys - it just out speeds and 2HKO's w/ shadow ball. Scarfdreavus is often over looked imo, as its one of the better scarfers out there. It hits 18 speed with a neutral nature, reaching a whopping 27 speed, which is faster than many of the speed boosters in the teir, including Jolly Scraggy and a bunch of the shell smashers, and still packs a punch with a 19 SpA. It has the perfect coverage missy is known for and access to trick to cripple walls like lileep and hippopotas; still maintaining a 4th slot for additional moves(thunderbolt for murkrow, substitute for after a trick, etc).
Other then that and what i saw mentioned a while skimming posts, my generic advice for the OP was "Strong Suckerpunches and LOLSpeed-tie"
In my experience, a Scarf Misdreavus acts as a good check to non-scarfed-Missys - it just out speeds and 2HKO's w/ shadow ball. Scarfdreavus is often over looked imo, as its one of the better scarfers out there. It hits 18 speed with a neutral nature, reaching a whopping 27 speed, which is faster than many of the speed boosters in the teir, including Jolly Scraggy and a bunch of the shell smashers, and still packs a punch with a 19 SpA. It has the perfect coverage missy is known for and access to trick to cripple walls like lileep and hippopotas; still maintaining a 4th slot for additional moves(thunderbolt for murkrow, substitute for after a trick, etc).
Other then that and what i saw mentioned a while skimming posts, my generic advice for the OP was "Strong Suckerpunches and LOLSpeed-tie"
I'm surprised no one mentioned specially bulky Houdour. It can tank a +2 HP Fighting and 2KO any missy with Sucker Punch or Fire Blast, is immune to burn (in fact empowered by WoW). I used it for a long while and it very rarely failed me against missy. Actually, only hax from the ghost was able to plow through it.
Also I believe it OHKOs LO Missy given the correct spread.
Also I believe it OHKOs LO Missy given the correct spread.
Delver
I got the runs like Jagger
I'm back in updating the thread! Yayy! I'm going to shoulder most of the blame for last week's poor posting rate cause of my own lack of existing - things have just been hectic IRL lately, but should be back to normal next week. ANYWAYS, onto this week's victim, The Tyrant of the Tots - Mienfoo.
Mienfoo
45 HP / 85 Atk / 50 Def / 55 SpA / 50 SDef / 65 Spe
Abilities: Inner Focus / Regenerator / Reckless
If you wonder why mienfoo was chosen this week, you've never played a game of LC. This monster has held his spot as the most used pokemon in the teir practically since his release - and not without good reason. Mienfoo has a near perfect mix of attributes. It's base stats allow it to have the same power physically as misdreavus has specially, while retaining average bulk. A singlular Fighting typing give it one of the best STABs in the tier, and its movepool has access to such gems as Drain Punch, U-turn, Knock Off, and Hi Jump Kick, among others. Perhaps the largest boon to the fighting weasel is it's access to regenertor, which provides it with unmatched bulk despite its sub-par defensive stats. Mienfoo is seen running everything from a bulky attacker, originally designed as a way to keep Scraggy in check, to a much faster yet weaker LO attacking set. While mienfoo's versatility far from ends there, I feel its safe to say that these two are by far the most common sets, and we should start here for the sake of the thread. So there you have a breif over view of mienfoo - how do you beat it?
Personally, for the LO variants, I find misdreavus to be the best counter. Her immunity to Fighting and the LO set's tendency to run Hi-jump kick often give her a free switch that hurts mienfoo severely. Most *good* players will be hesitent with spamming HJK till allghosts Misdreavuses are dead though, so maybe theres a better answer out there?
Mienfoo
45 HP / 85 Atk / 50 Def / 55 SpA / 50 SDef / 65 Spe
Abilities: Inner Focus / Regenerator / Reckless
If you wonder why mienfoo was chosen this week, you've never played a game of LC. This monster has held his spot as the most used pokemon in the teir practically since his release - and not without good reason. Mienfoo has a near perfect mix of attributes. It's base stats allow it to have the same power physically as misdreavus has specially, while retaining average bulk. A singlular Fighting typing give it one of the best STABs in the tier, and its movepool has access to such gems as Drain Punch, U-turn, Knock Off, and Hi Jump Kick, among others. Perhaps the largest boon to the fighting weasel is it's access to regenertor, which provides it with unmatched bulk despite its sub-par defensive stats. Mienfoo is seen running everything from a bulky attacker, originally designed as a way to keep Scraggy in check, to a much faster yet weaker LO attacking set. While mienfoo's versatility far from ends there, I feel its safe to say that these two are by far the most common sets, and we should start here for the sake of the thread. So there you have a breif over view of mienfoo - how do you beat it?
Personally, for the LO variants, I find misdreavus to be the best counter. Her immunity to Fighting and the LO set's tendency to run Hi-jump kick often give her a free switch that hurts mienfoo severely. Most *good* players will be hesitent with spamming HJK till all
I find the easiest way of dealing with Mienfoo is to burn it, Missy with WoW, Larvesta resisting all of it's commonly used moves (bar Stone Edge - used on about 38% of Mienfoo) and can get a little bit lucky with Flame Body. Frillish getting lucky with Scald burns etc. Knock off's a pain though - especially as all the pre-mentioned pokémon rely on Eviolite to take a hit from 'foo.
Paralysis is a good way to get rid of Mienfoo as its list of counters increases without its good speed.
Burn is, as FM said, a very nice way of dealing with it also but I find that strategy very hard to use without relying on luck with Flame Body/Scald. I mean, the usual users of WoW are foreseen miles ahead and Mienfoo can make an easy retreat and heal thanks to Regenerator.
Prankster Cottonee (yes, I'm obsessed with the freak) can encore Fake Out and Paralize Mienfoo. Flying Gem Acrobatics from... anything that uses that (I had fun with Aipom for a surprise kill) is a good way to get rid of it as even if it runs Knock Off the damage dealt can be high enough.
I think that the presence of Missy and Murkrow really has been holding back Mienfoo as it's not that easy to spam HJK with Missy's prevalence and players usually do very conservative games around Murkrow.
Vullaby is a good check if you know how to play with her; Air Slash deals a big chunk as Mienfoo is very physically oriented.
I haven't tried a Double Rush team so I'm very curious, how do these team play around Mienfoo?
Burn is, as FM said, a very nice way of dealing with it also but I find that strategy very hard to use without relying on luck with Flame Body/Scald. I mean, the usual users of WoW are foreseen miles ahead and Mienfoo can make an easy retreat and heal thanks to Regenerator.
Prankster Cottonee (yes, I'm obsessed with the freak) can encore Fake Out and Paralize Mienfoo. Flying Gem Acrobatics from... anything that uses that (I had fun with Aipom for a surprise kill) is a good way to get rid of it as even if it runs Knock Off the damage dealt can be high enough.
I think that the presence of Missy and Murkrow really has been holding back Mienfoo as it's not that easy to spam HJK with Missy's prevalence and players usually do very conservative games around Murkrow.
Vullaby is a good check if you know how to play with her; Air Slash deals a big chunk as Mienfoo is very physically oriented.
I haven't tried a Double Rush team so I'm very curious, how do these team play around Mienfoo?
Yeah, Missy's a great counter. Ghost types in general do a swell job; Frillish can take multiple U-Turns / SEdges but predicted Knock Offs can be annoying later. Anything with a tankish nature and no weakness to mienfoo's attacks can beat it too. Most Hippopotas excel at it, and can 2HKO with EQ. Bulkier variants of Mukrow can take a DPunch here and there and hit hard with Brave Bird. Knowing Mienfoo's set helps you figure out how to beat it as well; Scarf Mienfoo can be punished or tanked, while Evio Mienfoo can be revenged or tanked as well.
The best singular counter to mienfoo is drifloon. Drifloon is immune to mienfoo's priority and stab, and can ohko mienfoo while 'setting up' with acrobatics.
Delver
I got the runs like Jagger
I have to agree with this to an extent. Most of the defensive mienfoo have stopped running Stone Edge because Larvesta has fallen in usage, opting for the more support oriented Knock Off. While Knock off hits Drifloon for SE damage, its still weak at only a BP 40 attack after multipliers and gives Drifloon his unburden boost. Essentially Drifloon can come in on 3/4 moves commonly seen on a defensive mienfoo (Drain Punch (immunity) Knock off (as described) and Fake Out (immunity/useless after 1st turn)) and OHKO with a powerful STAB Acrobatics, while also set to begin punching wholes or attempt a sweep.
However, on the grounds that Mienfoo *does* have access to Stone Edge Drifloon cannot be concidered a counter just due to the definition of a counter. In fact, most LO variants prefer to run Stone Edge in place of Knock Off just for the extra offensive coverage it provides (LO's job is to punch holes in things via brute force).
Regardless, Drifloon is a good one. I like it.
Drifloon is actually a terrible counter- it hates getting hit by Knock Off (although you do get the Unburden boost) and is OHKOed by Stone Edge. It requires a fair bit of prediction to not get hit by Knock Off/U-turn from standard defensive Mienfoo. Ghost-types do a nice job, but all loathe getting hit by Knock Off. Larvesta is probably the best straight-up counter due to the fact that if Mienfoo uses U-turn it risks a burn, but even then Stone Edge will hurt and Knock Off is irritating. In general, the combination of Knock Off and U-turn make Mienfoo almost impossible to straight-up counter. You can only merely force it out, and eventually try to get a status on it or kill it on a switchin. Using Knock Off on a Mienfoo (usually occurs in a Mienfoo mirror) to get rid of defensive Mienfoo's Eviolite makes it unable to switch into things such as Snover's Blizzard, Staryu's Hydro Pump, or even Porygon's Tri Attack.
Drifloon has a nice 4x bug resist...
252Atk Life Orb Reckless lvl 5 Mienfoo (+Atk) U-turn vs 36HP/Def lvl 5 Drifloon (Neutral): 11% - 15% (3 - 4 HP). Guaranteed 9HKO.
Also, 252Atk Life Orb Reckless lvl 5 Mienfoo (+Atk) Knock Off vs 36HP/Def lvl 5 Drifloon (Neutral): 38% - 46% (10 - 12 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
And in terms of beating mienfoos, 200 Atk Flying Gem Drifloon Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 24-30 (114.28 - 142.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If you come in on a mienfoo, even if it has stone edge, you can speed tie and with luck ohko with acrobatics. On the other 62% of mienfoo you can still ohko, and it should be noted these will likely be running more defense sets. In either scenario you get your free setup and can attempt a countersweep.
No, what I think iss is trying to say is that Mienfoo's ability to pivot with U-Turn in general makes it hard to counter, not just specifically for Drifloon. Many Hail teams now run Mienfoo for this- it baits out threats (Hippopotas / Drilly / Missy / Murk) that can easily be U-Turned into Snover for a kill or a lot of momentum.
Even with Drifloon, it's true that U-Turn doesn't really hurt it at all, but the things switching in can- as, in my experiences, Drifloon is a pretty easy pokemon to force out. Again, common partners of Mienfoo such as Snover or SRush Drilly or even Murk / Missy can all cover common Mienfoo counter very well, which is why it's so easy to play with but hard to play against.
Because of U-Turn, I think there are a relatively few amount of true counters to Mienfoo, and that there only exists checks that can take a hit and outspeed/revenge or force out.
Even with Drifloon, it's true that U-Turn doesn't really hurt it at all, but the things switching in can- as, in my experiences, Drifloon is a pretty easy pokemon to force out. Again, common partners of Mienfoo such as Snover or SRush Drilly or even Murk / Missy can all cover common Mienfoo counter very well, which is why it's so easy to play with but hard to play against.
Because of U-Turn, I think there are a relatively few amount of true counters to Mienfoo, and that there only exists checks that can take a hit and outspeed/revenge or force out.
An interesting Pokemon to help beat Mienfoo is Bulky Tirtouga. Not to counter it, but it often lures Mienfoo out and can hit it with Knock Off on the switch. Whilst it can't counter Mienfoo itself, Mienfoo is rather frail without eviolite and will find it much harder to constantly switch in and out.
Mienfoo is a very annoying pokemon to counter with a wall/tank as many bulky pokemon absolutely detest Knock Off. However a couple which haven't been mentioned yet are Shelmet, who can set up Spikes and also has access to Acid Armour and Foongus which will beat it one on one. However Mienfoo will just Knock Off and U-turn out. Foongus still has access to Stun Spore though which is nice as Mienfoo hates paralysis.
Finally I like Natu. It outspeeds bulky foo and speed ties with Life Orb. It can then weaken it with FeatherDance or hit it hard with HP Flying or Psychic. It has to be wary of Stone Edge though.
Mienfoo is a very annoying pokemon to counter with a wall/tank as many bulky pokemon absolutely detest Knock Off. However a couple which haven't been mentioned yet are Shelmet, who can set up Spikes and also has access to Acid Armour and Foongus which will beat it one on one. However Mienfoo will just Knock Off and U-turn out. Foongus still has access to Stun Spore though which is nice as Mienfoo hates paralysis.
Finally I like Natu. It outspeeds bulky foo and speed ties with Life Orb. It can then weaken it with FeatherDance or hit it hard with HP Flying or Psychic. It has to be wary of Stone Edge though.
No one mentioned Frillish yet? It has the bulk to take any coverage moves, is immune to fake out/drain punch (not to mention hjk), and takes u-turns and knock offs like nothing - but it doesn't like to lose eviolite or whatever item it runs. On top of that, it has WoW and Scald to burn it or the switchin. On the other hand, it thrives for a teamslot...
Missy also makes Mienfoo its bitch most of the time, but it might be obvious to both players so they won't be so careless
Missy also makes Mienfoo its bitch most of the time, but it might be obvious to both players so they won't be so careless
There are two hard counters to bulky Mienfoo, only one of which is actually usable. They are Grimer and Trubbish. Both have access to Sticky hold, which blocks knock off, they resist Drain Punch, (and for what it's worth, U-turn) and don't take much from Fake Out, Stone Edge, or even payback. Honestly though, who would use Trubbish when Grimer exists? Grimer also does around a solid 40% with Poison Jab with a 30% chance of poison as well which can cripple Mienfoo. It can also take on Choice Scarf Mienfoo which things like Larvesta and Drifloon can't check as reliably. I believe it also takes Life Orb Mienfoo decently as well.
Delver
I got the runs like Jagger
Something else that hasnt been mentioned is entry hazards. A single layer of spikes and Stealth rocks cuts mienfoo's recovery from regenerator in half, dealing ~4 damage upon entry (*most* mienfoo only recovers 7 from regenerator, due to everything being percentage based and LC's numbers being so small. At most it could regenerate 8 - still half). While not "countering" mienfoo per se, it definitely makes it easier to deal with. I know this is true for literally *every* pokemon to exist but i think its definitely worth mentioning in this case. Mienfoo's sets, though all played differently, all share a common fault in that they switch in and out a lot. Usually this is not a bad thing, because of regenerator being such a good ability, but because regenerator triggers upon leaving, and hazards upon entry, Mienfoo can now no longer be above 17HP when you're dealing with it initially. It doesn't "remove" the regenerator bonus by any means, but it keeps it in check and makes chipping away at Mienfoo slightly more viable.
Yes, hazards help, but Mienfoo can beat many common spike stackers one on one, since DPunch / HJK beat Ferroseed / Dwebble / Bronzor / Lileep and Swords Dance can be used to seize the opportunity to grab a boost and then Baton Pass. Mienfoo is also a versatile pokemon that can be used throughout all of most matches, making it hard for hazard setters to come in and setup. The best you can really do is set Stealth Rock, but it does very little to hinder Mienfoo b/c of its resistance. Hazards are a great way to beat Foo, but it's hard to set up and without all 3 layers it doesn't really make a significant difference.
To add some pokemon to the list, I'd say Croagunk and Foonguss do a good job on countering Mienfoo; Croagunk can use sheer type advantage to beat Mienfoo, resisting all moves but Fake Out and setting up easily. Foonguss is another greta counter as it can beat U-Turn switch ins with Spore, and takes relatively little from Stone Edge / Knock Off. Its own Regenerator helps it shrug off the damage so it can come in frequently.
To add some pokemon to the list, I'd say Croagunk and Foonguss do a good job on countering Mienfoo; Croagunk can use sheer type advantage to beat Mienfoo, resisting all moves but Fake Out and setting up easily. Foonguss is another greta counter as it can beat U-Turn switch ins with Spore, and takes relatively little from Stone Edge / Knock Off. Its own Regenerator helps it shrug off the damage so it can come in frequently.
Mienfoo is so effective because it can avoid dying against most of the metagame and serve as a pivot. You don't really worry about it getting worn down thanks to Regenerator, so chipping off its health as it switches in is not really as much of an option as it would be as opposed to dealing with Misdreavus or Scraggy.
The best way to beat-or at least mitigate-Mienfoo is being able to deter what it's going to bring in with its U-Turn. Most Pokemon in Little Cup detest Will-O-Wisp, so you can force your opponent to choose what is going to eat a burn and even end up being setup fodder for your hazards user or Scraggy. Strong attackers like Hydro Pump Staryu or any Murkrow variant may not be able to wear down Mienfoo, but they can take chunks off the opposition and beat Mienfoo one on one. There are also ways of luring Mienfoo and crippling it; Thunder Wave Porygon can drastically reduce Mienfoo's usefulness (especially if it is a more offensive set). Wynaut is also funny to bring into Mienfoo because all of its moves are Counter-able, and if it U-Turns then anything (bar a Ghost-type) is going to take a hefty chunk once it comes in.
The best way to beat-or at least mitigate-Mienfoo is being able to deter what it's going to bring in with its U-Turn. Most Pokemon in Little Cup detest Will-O-Wisp, so you can force your opponent to choose what is going to eat a burn and even end up being setup fodder for your hazards user or Scraggy. Strong attackers like Hydro Pump Staryu or any Murkrow variant may not be able to wear down Mienfoo, but they can take chunks off the opposition and beat Mienfoo one on one. There are also ways of luring Mienfoo and crippling it; Thunder Wave Porygon can drastically reduce Mienfoo's usefulness (especially if it is a more offensive set). Wynaut is also funny to bring into Mienfoo because all of its moves are Counter-able, and if it U-Turns then anything (bar a Ghost-type) is going to take a hefty chunk once it comes in.
Delver
I got the runs like Jagger
I apologize for my lack of existing. Transitional period over here, so I just need some time to get in the swing of things. This thread will now be updated on Sundays. As such; lets move on to the new Victim. The infamous Murkrow.
murkrow
60 HP / 85 Atk / 42 Def / 85 SpA / 42 SDef / 91 Spe
Abilities: Super Luck / Insomnia / Prankster
Murkrow is one of the most contriversial mons in the teir, possessing the power and speed to destroy unprepared teams with little to no support as well as having one of the best abilities in the game - Prankster. It's move pool allows it to really abuse both its amazing offensive stats and its god-given ability in Prankster. It naturally reaches the coveted 19 speed teir, and has equal SpA and Atk stats. Though its obvious for most of us who've played against it, Murkrow is arguably the *most* versatile mon in the teir. It has sets ranging from Scarf'd revenge Killers, Mixed Wall breakers, Pure support, Parafusion, and even a semi bulky attacker (in its SubRoost set). Because of its versatility, true counters to murkrow don't actually exist - only checks for a set. As such I'd like it if in your posts you clarify which sets you're dealing with. The most common murkrow's are the Subroost and Mixkrow varients. One of the better answers to the subroost set imo is a Shellder. Scarfed, it can outspeed and KO through a substitute with SE Icicle spear / Rock Blast, or out race the sucker punch with an Ice Shard. With an Eviolite and its great defensive stat, it can soak up the damage from a sucker pnch or BB KO very similarly as before. This set has more trouble with the Mixkrow variant as they sometimes carry SE HP Grasses, or a secondary STab in Dark Pulse to hit on its signifcantly weaker special side. With a scarf though (and a little better prediciton) it can also out speed and OHKO with th appropriate move.
murkrow
60 HP / 85 Atk / 42 Def / 85 SpA / 42 SDef / 91 Spe
Abilities: Super Luck / Insomnia / Prankster
Murkrow is one of the most contriversial mons in the teir, possessing the power and speed to destroy unprepared teams with little to no support as well as having one of the best abilities in the game - Prankster. It's move pool allows it to really abuse both its amazing offensive stats and its god-given ability in Prankster. It naturally reaches the coveted 19 speed teir, and has equal SpA and Atk stats. Though its obvious for most of us who've played against it, Murkrow is arguably the *most* versatile mon in the teir. It has sets ranging from Scarf'd revenge Killers, Mixed Wall breakers, Pure support, Parafusion, and even a semi bulky attacker (in its SubRoost set). Because of its versatility, true counters to murkrow don't actually exist - only checks for a set. As such I'd like it if in your posts you clarify which sets you're dealing with. The most common murkrow's are the Subroost and Mixkrow varients. One of the better answers to the subroost set imo is a Shellder. Scarfed, it can outspeed and KO through a substitute with SE Icicle spear / Rock Blast, or out race the sucker punch with an Ice Shard. With an Eviolite and its great defensive stat, it can soak up the damage from a sucker pnch or BB KO very similarly as before. This set has more trouble with the Mixkrow variant as they sometimes carry SE HP Grasses, or a secondary STab in Dark Pulse to hit on its signifcantly weaker special side. With a scarf though (and a little better prediciton) it can also out speed and OHKO with th appropriate move.
subroost set is classic and can beat many of murkrow's 'counters'
lo set is devastatingly powerful, can 2hko nearly anything apart from heatproof bronzor
scarf set is pretty cool too, revenging stuff like +1 scraggy is nice.
parafusion set ehhhhh
cm krow idk it used to be really cool but nobody's been using it lately
lo set is devastatingly powerful, can 2hko nearly anything apart from heatproof bronzor
scarf set is pretty cool too, revenging stuff like +1 scraggy is nice.
parafusion set ehhhhh
cm krow idk it used to be really cool but nobody's been using it lately
The krow I'm currently running is
Murkrow @ Eviolite
Trait: Prankster
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 36 Atk / 236 Def
Adamant Nature
IVs: 31 HP / 31 Atk / 31 Def / 31 SAtk / 31 SDef
- Roost
- Toxic
- FeatherDance
- Drill Peck
It pretty much only loses to chinchou/starmie/porygon/magnemite
Murkrow @ Eviolite
Trait: Prankster
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 36 Atk / 236 Def
Adamant Nature
IVs: 31 HP / 31 Atk / 31 Def / 31 SAtk / 31 SDef
- Roost
- Toxic
- FeatherDance
- Drill Peck
It pretty much only loses to chinchou/starmie/porygon/magnemite
Without sounding like a jerk, isn't it hard-walled by Magnemite?
Running some calcs on #lc, we saw that LO Murkrow 2HKOes the two subroost hard-counters: resttalk chinchou and Porygon. The former is 2HKOed by sucker punch and HP grass, while the latter can't switch into brave bird because it's 2HKOed. NOTHING can switch in it since it hits ridiculously hard. Though the set I'm running now is eviolite mixkrow, which is nice as a cleaner late-game with brave bird and sucker punch or to punch holes early-game by predicting switches. It also take a lot of random hits with eviolite and insomnia is pretty nice to switch into foongus and shroomish (though foongus predicting the switch in with stun spore is pretty rage inducing).
No you're right, I forgot about it and also porygon. However, any steel-trapping scarf magnemite, the most common set, is often scared away by the potential trace on my porygon