XY NU Theorymon Discussion

[DTC]

Now that we have NU 1695 stats, we have a much clearer representation of what the potential NU tier will look like. However, note that NU will not be starting until we have 2/3 months of stats, and thus the NU list will be a bit different from what we're discussing now.


A few rules to note:

1) Even though this is a theorymon discussion thread, make sure the quality of your posts is the same quality as any other discussion post in this forum.

2) Please do not make any other threads in this forum about XY NU; this is not an XY forum, but we're allowing XY discussion here as long as it is off good quality. More threads about XY NU may be made in the future, and that is up to Raseri and I.​

Pokemon that moved up:

RIP

Alomomola, Ampharos, Banette, Braviary, Charizard, Eelektross, Exploud, Gardevoir, Golbat, Mandibuzz, Mawile, Pinsir, Skuntank

And a list of NU newcomers:

lgi

Accelgor, Archeops, Avalugg, Aurorus, Barbaracle, Bouffalant, Carbink, Crustle, Cryogonal, Dedenne, Dragalge, Durant, Dusclops, Dusknoir, Feraligatr, Ferroseed, Furfrou, Gogoat, Gourgeist (all sizes), Hariyama, Jynx, Klinklang, Lanturn, Lilligant, Magmortar, Magneton, Malamar, Mesprit, Meowstic, Mismagius, Ninetales (no Drought), Omastar, Pangoro, Politoed (no Drizzle), Poliwrath, Pyroar, Qwilfish, Rotom-N, Rhydon, Sceptile, Sandslash, Scyther, Sigilyph, Spiritomb, Steelix, Typhlosion, Uxie, Venomoth, Virizion, Vivilion, Xatu
as well as all Kalos NFEs (including Doublade and Fletchinder).

​

With all that said, feel free to talk about what is different in XY NU from BW NU, and any particular Pokemon that pipes your interest. Some Pokemon, such as Chatot and Kecleon, have gotten a pretty big buff, while already good Pokemon such as Sawk got some interesting changes as well.

 

[Chieliee]

I can see a Sub/Calm Mind Slurpuff with Petaya Berry be a pretty big threat. After a calm mind, Petaya and Unburden it'll sit at +2 spatk and +2 speed. It gets amazing coverage in Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Surf, and Psychic. (it can't run them all on one set, especially when running surf, but this means that there's no 100% counter to this thing.

yeah for ppl who play lc it's obvious i just took swirlix's lc sweeper set and took the evo etc etc.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I think Articuno and Golbat will likely rise in usage, because they're probably the best users of Defog in the tier. The former is already really cool in itself and Defog it's going to make it a much better support Pokemon. Golbat has a bit of 4MSS but I'm pretty sure teams that dislike entry hazards can fit it into Golbat's moveset. It also really helps that both of them appreciate their own Defog support, get reliable recover, and are pretty fast too. Similarly, Spikes stacking teams are going to take a huge hit given that our best Spiker is leaving and the presence of Defog.

Some other minor things, like Tangela taking a hit without Sleep Powder hitting Grass-types, or Parasect being an even more worthless piece of ass. Butterfree isn't really affected much because it can still use Quiver Dance, and Grass-types aren't likely to switch into it anyway, plus it got a nice special attack raise, so yay.

Also, offense is going to be rampant even with the Defog buff because the best check to offensive teams ever, Kangaskhan, is leaving \o/ and stall becomes pretty difficult to run, what with Defog everywhere, and also based on my assumptions that Golbat usage will rise.

Also, Slurpuff sounds really interesting with Petaya berry, especially with priority becoming less of an issue thanks to Kangaskhan leaving and nobody having to give a hoot about Riolu anymore thanks to the new mechanics not allowing it to Copycat Roar (you can start crying in a hole Punchshroom). The only issue is probably Metang, whose Bullet Punch would take a chunk, but that can be easily remedied.

Without gems, Drifblim will have to rely on some weird Baton Pass set or Flare Boost set OR CM + ChestoRest set. It's certainly gonna be way less effective than it is currently, but I daresay Flare Boost isn't really terrible if the speed benchmark falls a bit. I can't really say for CM + ChestoRest right now, but probably fewer priority and the lack of Kangaskhan is a big boon for it.

Can't think of anymore, but these are the first things that came to mind so. And jw, what was changed about Chatot, Sawk, and Skuntank?

 

[Punchshroom]

nobody having to give a hoot about Riolu anymore thanks to the new mechanics not allowing it to Copycat Roar (you can start crying in a hole Punchshroom)

shut up scorp you don't know my pain ;_;

Open for long post:

Rock
- Golem's Attack boost basically rendered Gigalith completely obsolete now, despite the latter's Special Defense increase (thanks for nothing~).
- Lunatone gets Moonblast woot, while Solrock is stuck with silly Sunny Day as its 'flavor move'.

Grass
- Nature Power turning into Tri Attack didn't do the Grass sweepers any favors. Sawsbuck and Shiftry no longer have a good option to smack Skuntank with. Jumpluff also didn't like either the loss / nerf of Gems, which was what made it scary to fight against.
- Other Grass-types don't have it so bad. Victreebel and Roselia are big winners as they have resolved their Egg move issues: one can have Power Whip, Encore and Weather Ball together (while also getting Belch as a powerful Poison STAB), while the other can have Spikes, Sleep Powder, and Leaf Storm all in one set. I guess Vileplume and Bellossom are benefactors with their updated stats...
- Energy Ball gets a small power boost, making it actually worth considering over Giga Drain now. Ludicolo can find this handy as Giga Drain tends to not nab solid OHKOes on bulkier Water-types.

Bug
- Sticky Web. Nearly all of its users are in NU (the only odd one out being Galvantula). Ariados probably won't see too much use unless you want Toxic Spikes that badly, but Shuckle, Masquerain and Leavanny seem to be adequate users of the move.
- Compared to Grass-types, Bug-types that use Powder moves aren't so bad off as they still have their STAB moves to threaten said Grass-types, so Butterfree and Parasect are at the very least 'salvageable' in that aspect.
- Hmmm...okay we can't talk about Scolipede...so let's talk Whirlipede!! A bulky Eviolited Speed Booster that knows hazards. Meh, I'll take it.
- Bug Buzz bypasses Substitute. Bad news for SwagPard.
- A couple of Bugs know Fell Stinger, which doubles their Attack if they KO something with it (30 BP btw, good luck). This may or may not be a legit reason to use False Swipe competitively.

Dark
- Their STAB gets resisted by less now! Not that there are a lot of Dark-types in NU to take advantage of that fact, but Mightyena ain't complaining.
- Skuntank don't fear no Fairies. How many Fairies will even end up in NU anyway?
- Liepard gets Play Rough. Not sure if this can amount to anything much (perfect dual coverage?), but at least it can force Sawk to tread carefully now.
- Knock Off got a huge boost in power compared to before. Since I can't talk about Mandibuzz, I'll just list Sneasel as the next big winner, since it doesn't have to rely on Foul Play or Punishment to do reasonable Dark-type damage with the bonus of removing held items~

Water
- Hey guiz, Wartortle gets Aura Sphere and Dragon Pulse now, maybe he can actually fight back....yeah I doubt it lol.
- Crabhammer now has 100 BP. Kingler appreciates that.
- Alomomola...would probably still a dick, I can say that much.

Ice
- The majority of Freeze-dry users reside in NU. Vanilluxe no longer has to worry about Water-types walling its entire moveset; Lapras shits even harder on opposing Water-types and gets perfect coverage alongside its Water STAB; Articuno now has more stuff it can counter. Aurorus...eh.
- Talking about Aurorus here. It has some neat moves (Freeze Dry, Thunderbolt, Thunder Wave, Discharge, Nature Power=104 BP Ice Tri Attack, Encore) and abilities (Refrigerate and Snow Warning), but its stats and typing are just so awkward for it. Not sure about it really.
- Beartic gets Play Rough as an Egg move. Not sure what this entails, but anything not-Fairy that learns the only physical Fairy move in the game is an eye-catcher in my book. :P
- Sneasel can get Icicle Crash as an Egg move. Sneasel's prayers for better dual STAB have been answered.

Fairy
- Aromatisse has 'Beheeyem' syndrome: better potential in Doubles than Singles. However, it does have Wish, Aromatherapy, nice base HP, decent all-round bulk and usable Special Attack coupled with strong STAB, so it could make for a good cleric.
- Slurpuff is the Fairy of choice when it comes to sweeping. Unburden + Calm Mind + Dazzling Gleam + Flamethrower / Surf / Thunderbolt / Energy Ball = good god, dat coverage.
- Dedenne doesn't get Dazzling Gleam. Why?????????

More to come~

 

[Infernis]

I think Articuno and Golbat will likely rise in usage, because they're probably the best users of Defog in the tier. The former is already really cool in itself

I see what you did there.

Can't think of anymore, but these are the first things that came to mind so. And jw, what was changed about Chatot, Sawk, and Skuntank?

Not sure about Chatot or Skuntank, but Sawk got Power-Up Punch, which should make a scarf set viable in the vein of Moxie Pinsir and the like; come in, get a kill (or a free hit on a switch) and start going to town with your pumped up fist bullets.

 

[Snaquaza]

I see what you did there.


Not sure about Chatot or Skuntank, but Sawk got Power-Up Punch, which should make a scarf set viable in the vein of Moxie Pinsir and the like; come in, get a kill (or a free hit on a switch) and start going to town with your pumped up fist bullets.

Skuntank gets Defog I believe and Chatot has always confuse Swagger, I believe that are their boosts

 

[DTC]

No, those are not the significant boosts they got. The Knock Off buff gives Sawk a tool to get past Musharna / Misdreavus, previous hard counters. In addition, Knock Off also does a lot to Golurk and cripples Tangela.

Skuntank did not necessarily get a buff, but it got a few changes that may impact how it plays:

• Knock Off buff, which makes it better than Crunch (nvm skunk sucks)
• Defog
• Dark is now neutral vs Steel, which allows Skuntank to Pursuit trap Metang effectively.
• Poison Jab has better coverage now that we have Fairy-types (although it was already used very often last gen)

These buffs give Skuntank quite a bit of 4MSS, as it would really appreciate 6 different moveslots.

As for Chatot, it gets Boomburst, and to a lesser extent, a 100% confuse Chatter.

 

[Punchshroom]

Fighting
- Primeape gets Night Slash now, and Assurance got buffed to 60 too. Either way, Misdreavus became a slightly shakier check.
- Riolu. WHY???????? I need dem CopyCat + Roar :(
- Throh gets its Storm Throw buffed from an effective (40*2)=80 to (60*1.5)=90 power. RestTalk is also viable now.
- What DTC said about Sawk.

Electric
- Raichu hits 110 base Speed now, which does help it. It doesn't have the best coverage, but Encore + Nasty Plot can help to solve that.
- Zebstrika has Ion Deluge, which turns Normal-type moves into Electric-type moves for the turn (I believe that is how it works). Considering Zebstrika's Speed and Lightningrod ability, the zebra may very well be the best user of this move, and it appreciates having a way to boost its Special Attack. It is pretty situational, but it can turn the tables on an unsuspecting opponent in the most hilarious of ways.
- Stunfisk gets Reflect Type. Wut?

Ground
- Seismitoad has an increased Attack stat, which means stronger Earthquakes and....no physical Water STAB. You might as well give something like Azumarill a Special Attack boo...oh. But hey, RestTalk is a thing.
- Marowak gets Power-Up Punch, allowing it to hit for decent damage and get terrifyingly powerful at the same time.
- On a similar note, Power-Up Punch (with Iron Fist boost o_0) grants Golurk a way to boost its Attack, which can allow it to break down walls more effectively.

Psychic
- Mr. Mime is part Fairy-type now, which removes its Bug and Dark weakness in exchange for Poison and Steel weaknesses, the former of which can be dealt with STAB Psychic. Soundproof still aids well in Baton Passing, and also has the added benefit of preventing Bug Buzz from hitting Mr. Mime behind the Substitute (but it's not weak to it anyway). Its coverage is great too, having STAB Dazzling Gleam alongside Focus Blast and even a Technician boosted Hidden Power.
- Musharna...would still be a dick.
- There isn't really much difference between female and male Meowstic, as most of their 'exclusive' moves can be taught to the other via TM anyway. Basically, the only notable moves female Meowstic know are Signal Beam, Stored Power and Me First, while male Meowstic gets Quick Guard, Mean Look and Imprison....yeah not a spectacular roster of moves which Meowstic can definitely go without. The biggest difference lies in its ability: males have Prankster while females have Competitive (a special variant of Defiant, but boosts only by +1). Considering how situational Competitive is, Prankster Meowstic would likely see more use, as it has Dual Screens and Thunder Wave as well as such moves as Charm. Oh, and offensive Meowstic is pretty badly outclassed by Kadabra for the most part.

Flying
- Yeah what scorp said about Golbat and Articuno, as they are the bulkiest users of Defog and have reasonable Speed. The only question is whether they have the moveslot to spare it.
- Acrobatics users are pretty stunted. Jumpluff and Drifblim had better look for other niches lest they be outclassed.
- Give Unfezant boosted Attack, yet still don't give it a good Flying move. Unfezant will soon become the new Flareon.
- Swanna learns Defog by itself, and it can actually scare away most SR users with Water STAB so that they won't simply set SR up again in Swanna's face.

Fire
- Flareon, need I say more? Granted, even if it may have the most powerful physical Fire-type move in NU, doesn't mean Flareon will shoot up high in usage. Recoil is recoil, especially on 65 Base HP.
- Combusken can Baton Pass now.
- Pyroar has decent Normal + Fire STAB in Hyper Voice and Fire Blast, but doesn't get many options outside of that (Wild Charge is poor coming from base 68 Attack), it doesn't have any good boosting options, and its abilities are near useless. It is walled hard by Rock-types and specially bulky dudes as a result. Pyroar has 2 moveslots left and you are left figuring out what to do with them. It has barely enough options for a Choice set (Overheat, Dark Pulse, Hidden Power), and it only has support options in Taunt, Will-O-Wisp and Noble Roar (which is pretty mediocre for a signature move).

 

[ryan]

I'm so disappointed that we got Noble Roar instead of King's Call. :(

I don't know why, but I kind of feel like Aurorus has some potential to end up in RU and not fall all the way down to NU, despite its horrible defensive typing. While its defensive typing gives it resistances to only Normal-, Flying-, Poison-, and Ice-type attacks, 4x weaknesses to both Fighting- and Steel-type attacks, and 2x weaknesses to Rock-, Grass-, Ground-, and Water-type attacks, offensively between its dual STAB, it hits all of Dragon-, Flying-, Grass-, Ground-, Bug-, Fire-, and Ice-types for super effective damage, along with Water-types if you're using Freeze Dry. That's 8/18 types that you're hitting for super effective damage off of just Aurorus's dual STAB. This doesn't even include Thunderbolt (which allows Aurorus to hit everything in the tier for neutral damage barring Magnemite alongside its dual STAB and can allow you to forgo Freeze Dry in favor of Snow Warning + Blizzard), a Hidden Power of choice (although it's not the strongest coverage, Hidden Power Ground hits Bastiodon, Probopass, Klang, and Metang switching into it), Psychic, Dark Pulse, or Flash Cannon. I'm thinking with its fantastic movepool and good bulk, Aurorus would be a decent user of Assault Vest. Could also run more offensive variants. I have a set in mind, but not giving it away because I wanna use it. :) I realize that all of those weaknesses and mostly underwhelming resistances could land Aurorus in NU, but if it does end up down here, I'll probably use the shit out of it lol.

 

[Punchshroom]

I'm so disappointed that we got Noble Roar instead of King's Call. :(

I don't know why, but I kind of feel like Aurorus has some potential to end up in RU and not fall all the way down to NU, despite its horrible defensive typing. While its defensive typing gives it resistances to only Normal-, Flying-, Poison-, and Ice-type attacks, 4x weaknesses to both Fighting- and Steel-type attacks, and 2x weaknesses to Rock-, Grass-, Ground-, and Water-type attacks, offensively between its dual STAB, it hits all of Dragon-, Flying-, Grass-, Ground-, Bug-, Fire-, and Ice-types for super effective damage, along with Water-types if you're using Freeze Dry. That's 8/18 types that you're hitting for super effective damage off of just Aurorus's dual STAB. This doesn't even include Thunderbolt (which allows Aurorus to hit everything in the tier for neutral damage barring Magnemite alongside its dual STAB and can allow you to forgo Freeze Dry in favor of Snow Warning + Blizzard), a Hidden Power of choice (although it's not the strongest coverage, Hidden Power Ground hits Bastiodon, Probopass, Klang, and Metang switching into it), Psychic, Dark Pulse, or Flash Cannon. I'm thinking with its fantastic movepool and good bulk, Aurorus would be a decent user of Assault Vest. Could also run more offensive variants. I have a set in mind, but not giving it away because I wanna use it. :) I realize that all of those weaknesses and mostly underwhelming resistances could land Aurorus in NU, but if it does end up down here, I'll probably use the shit out of it lol.

Aurorus's Rock STAB consists of Ancientpower, end list, with its glorious 5 PP and 60 BP. Freeze Dry is cool and all, but I see it as a sort of 'stronger Thunderbolt' as its main use is to hit Water-types; 70 BP can fall short against its natural targets, and Aurorus either runs Refrigerate Nature Power / Snow Warning Blizzard for the oomph alongside Freeze Dry, or you just go for BoltBeam coverage, netting better neutral coverage in exchange for weaker damage on Water-types.

Aurorus may have decent neutral coverage (and the weird gimmicks in Psychic, Dark Pulse and who even uses Flash Cannon Aurorus?), but at the end of the day 99 Base Special Attack is still base 99. Assault Vest seems a neat idea on Aurorus though.

 

[atomicllamas]

Gamefreak wrecked drifblim

Ugh this makes me sad, even Calm Mind ghost gem is no longer an option, which was by far my favorite set in NU. As some people have mentioned it still has flare boost an option, making it a status absorbing special sweeper. I think that a cool "replacement" for the Unburden Calm Mind set could be run Shadow Ball/Rest/Calm Mind/T-bolt @ chesto berry allowing Driblim to boost up and take a hit, then rest to full health and hopefully sweep. It is still a worse set then Acroblimp or Ghost Gem CM, but it is usable and doesn't waste the amazing unburden ability.

I also think that Aurorus will have the most significant impact on the tier. I can see a Rock Polish Set with Refridgerate or Snow Warning (both great abilities, as refrigerate Tri Attack (via nature power) has cool status chance, avoids sucker punch and hits almost as hard as Blizzard (6 BP less)) being used as a really cool cleaner, as it has enough bulk to set up on neutral hits or even weak super effective hits. It has Terribad defensive typing, probably worse than Abomasnow's, but its offensive typing is amazing, as it's stabs only miss out on steel types.

Calm Mind Rest Talk Carbink could be a really cool win condition for defensive teams, think Bronzor, with better(?) defensive typing, leftovers, and better STABs. If you set up T-spikes, Carbink can probably just sit in front of the opposing team for the whole match and watch them die. This is also a really good option, as rest talk mechanics are no longer horrible.

My goal is to find a use for Furfrou, it has Alomomola level bulk, but no support or recovery moves, it could make use of Toxic and Roar, but that won't really last long enough, as it has no recovery to stall out attacks. It could be a decent T-wave support user, as it will be able to paralyze most physical mons in the tier with no fear, but that isn't worth a slot over Musharna. Maybe assault vest bulky pivot with STAB/U-turn/Baby Doll eyes/filler, but base 80 attack is underwhelming, and its defense is only meh without investment. Overall, Furfrou should have 1) been a llama and 2) gotten taunt :[.

 

[Punchshroom]

Back.

Poison
- Gunk Shot and Glare have been made more accurate, which is good for Arbok, but it already had Coil to make up for the former. Muk ain't complaining though.
- Whether you still want Curse on Muk is up to you, but Power-Up Punch allows Muk to boost while also hitting Rock- / Steel-types, which can save up its coverage slot.
- I noticed Garbodor gets Infestation. This allows Garbodor to trap and weaken bulky Pokemon as it sets up hazards. Would've been nice for all those times when Garbodor set up on Alomomola, and Infestation prevented them from Wish Passing.

Steel
- Metang became susceptible to Ghost and Dark moves. Weakness to the latter really stunted it a lot, as before it had a favorable matchup against Skuntank, but now it risks being Pursuit trapped or even get hit by boosted Knock Off and lose its Eviolite. Poor Metang.
- We don't know if Mawile will be staying with us by the end of this, but I highly doubt the amount of viable Steels in NU will increase. We don't know what moves the other NU Steels may be getting, but I think they took quite a hit this Gen.

Dragon
- Dragonair and Fraxure would want to incorporate Iron Tail into their movesets for Fairies now, though Fraxure has the more accurate option in Poison Jab.
- Shelgon and Zweilous unfortunately cannot remedy their Fairy issues as easily. I expect their usage to drop as a result.
- Gabite doesn't have it quite so bad, at least STAB Earthquake can do a chunk to Fairies. It is still more relegated to support roles with Stealth Rock + Roar and whatnot due to Nair and Frax having Dragon Dance to outclass it offensively.
- Altaria gets Moonblast...okay then. It also cannot do much to Fairies, but it has the bulky to at least survive their STAB and use Roar / Perish Song to stop their setup and denying Slurpuff the Unburden sweep.
- Since a lot of pre-evo Dragons are in NU, can I talk about Sliggoo? To those who thought Dragonair was a pain to bring down, this pile of goop blows Nair out of the water with even greater special bulk. Oh, and it has its own variation of using Rest as reliable recovery via Hydration, in which the Rain also happens to boost its Water attacks to provide pseudo Dragon+Water STAB. Poison attacks also allow it to fight back against Fairies if it so wishes. It isn't even confirmed if it gets Recover via Egg move, since the only possible parent is the currently unreleased Milotic. Yeah, if you struggled with Dragonair before, prepare for this. #BestLudiEelandRottCounter2013

Ghost
- Haunter gets Reflect Type too. Wut. In all seriousness, Haunter, like big bro Gengar, has gotten a buff to both its STABs, and with its good offensive stats it will likely be uncontested as the premier offensive Ghost of the tier, especially because...
- The loss of Gems hit Drifblim really hard. No Ghost Gem Shadow Ball? No Flying Gem Acrobatics? Suddenly its great ability seems a lot less potent. And of course it gets it physical Ghost STAB one generation too late. A bulky boosting ChestoRest set seems the way to go.

Normal
- Wigglytuff is part Fairy now. Maybe people would finally give it a glance and notice its 140 HP with Wish, but poor defenses mean Aromatisse is the better support Fairy, while Alomomola has even more HP + Regenerator.
- Zangoose gets Power-Up Punch! Now if it wants to finish off a weakened opponent, it can get +1 Attack alongside Toxic Boost to utterly wreck shit. Luckily these circumstances are rare (still not a reason to justify False Swipe btw), but just a heads up.
- Linoone and Stoutland (which got +10 Attack btw) get Play Rough via level-up. Just throwing it out there~
- Kecleon has Protean. While this is leagues better than Protean, Kecleon's low Speed means that its main problem still remains: opponents can take advantage of its new typing (at least they can't outright manipulate it now). Kecleon could use this ability to gain newfound resistances to take advantage of its special bulk, but since its recovery move is Normal-type, it loses those resistances to the next blow anyway. Speed kills, but Kecleon says otherwise.
- Nasty Plot + STAB Boomburst + 65 BP Chatter (it was 60 before) that now always confuses? Chatot is best specially offensive Normal / Flying bird, don't you deny it. Did I mention Encore and / or Heat Wave?
- Finally, Furfrou. High Speed with Cotton Guard + Fur Coat = nightmare for most physical attackers. Its special bulk isn't bad either. With Roar, it can stop things like Gurdurr and Zangoose from setting up alongside it and counter slower phazers, and then it can Toxic / Return things to death (either way it's a slow process). Shame it doesn't have any reliable recovery, so Rest would have to do. Even with +6 Defense behind an essential Reflect, being immobile for 2 turns can open yourself up to a lot of things. Furfrou can do some work if strong special attackers and phazers are removed though. In any case, this Pokemon can stop your physical attackers and outright invalidate an all-physical team, so watch out.

 

[Fusxfaranto]

Just to let everyone know, I've implemented this metagame on my server (http://fusx.psim.us) and I'll be updating it if any changes are made. Feel free to drop by and have a battle or two :)

 

[Valafar123]

The loss of Scolipede and Mandibuzz will definitely change the meta, especially the former. A lot of stall teams used the easy hazards as their win condition, so now they'll be forced to use slower hazard setters like Roselia, which in turn can be taunted. Mandibuzz was one of the better walls of the tier too, and helped to abuse the hazard damage with shuffling.

Khangaskhan leaving effectively remove our best priority user. I'm not sure what will replace it to be honest. Maybe Skuntank will see much more use to kill Ghosts and to use Defog, and Taunt the aforementioned hazard setters.

Charizard saw a lot of use too and in some respect was the special equivalent of Sawk. The only thing that held it back was the rock weakness.

Furfrou gives Tangela some stiff competition. Furfrou gets better all around bulk and U-Turn access, but Tangela still has Regenerator and doesn't bat an eye to Sawk's Mold Breaker or STAB move.

Carbink may end up as one of the best set up sweepers in the tier considering how bulky it is. Reminds be a bit of Probopass, but more of a set up role than utility.

 

[termi]

Carbink will probably be the next gen Bronzor tbh. If it wants to use SR and such it's outclassed, so the best thing it has going for it is its massive bulk, which can be utilized to maybe some success in tandem w/ CM, RestTalk and Moonblast.

Valafar123, you say that stall teams suffer from the loss of Scolipede, but you'd be completely wrong. If anything, the loss of Scolipede will make spikers less popular on offense, while stall teams can still use Roselia and Garbodor (two spikers stall preferred anyways), meaning that stall doesn't have to fight with two layers of spikes on its own end anymore (don't say "use spinners lel" cos no)

Meowstic sadly isn't very good (Gamefreak does its very best to give cat Pokemon crap stats, bs imo) but it's really cute and Prankster dual screens are a thing. It can also play the role of a bulkier swagcat but seriously guys don't do that.

Slurpuff looks to be a really interesting setup sweeper thanks to Unburden. ChestoRest w/ Calm Mind might work pretty well, especially with access to several viable coverage moves (no 100% certain counters woohoo). Belly Drum + Sitrus Berry sounds cool too, but its physical movepool is almost nonexistant, meaning it'd be hard-pressed to find a way around the steel types of the tier (although considering they lack reliable recovery, simply spamming Play Rough might work). 4th moveslot would be something like Wish for recovery or Yawn or Substitute or whatever. Interesting Pokemon regardless.

Of all the newbies, Pyroar seems like the most interesting addition though. It's looking to become a frailer, but faster Charizard that's not 4x weak to rocks. I see a lot of potential in a specsset, although its movepool is shallow as all hell, meaning it'd probably be using Overheat/Flamethrower/Hyper Voice/HP Grass pretty much all the time. (Unnerve helps it vs Slurpuff omg)

Aromatisse is added to the list of decent specially bulky Pokemon of NU, although it'll probably find itself being outclassed by Audino, who sports dat Regenerator. Fairy is a better typing though, and Aromatisse has more special bulk and offensive presence, so who knows.

Aurorus will be cute for Hail, but other than that idk. Who even uses Hail ffs

I don't care for Furfrou. Tangela and Alomomola are better because they have recovery and can actually offer team support. Rest is ok now I guess, but I just don't see what it has over the two previously mentioned physical walls (also, Punchshroom was so kind to ignore that most Sawk have Mold Breaker so Furfrou gets rekt after all)

Dedenne is ass

Assuming that Vivillon will be NU (it's not in the "legal" list but why the fuck wouldn't it be NU), it might be pretty decent. While it's still super frail and 4x weak to SR, it's got Compoundeyes Sleep Powder, Quiver Dance and the almighty Hurricane (no Air Slash is bs tho) and it's actually able to outspeed things, unlike Butterfree.

As for NFEs: Sliggoo will probably join Dragonair and such in the lower end of NU, having a goo defensive typing and amazing special bulk complemented by Eviolite to boot, although its phyiscal bulk is lacking and it has to rely on Rest for recovery. Finding a set that works for it might be tough, but I'm sure it'll have its niche (RestTalk, Curse and a random attacking move maybe? Nah.)

 

[TM Rock Polish]

Someone tell me why Pyroar is here. Please. It may not have the greatest typing, and it is SR weak, but really. 106 speed? YES PLEASE. 109 Spec Attack? YES. It may have lack of coverage, but I can see a Scarf or Specs set with Overheat, Fire Blast, Hyper Voice and filler be a decent set. Remember, this is a Pokemon with better offensive stats AND speed AND bulk than Manectric, albeit with a worse typing and coverage. Either it will be banned outright, or number one in NU.

Also, can we talk about Pre Evos in this thread? Because I see that some, like the aforementioned Sliggoo and Doublade will be rather common as well. (Doublade will prob be banned).

 

[Othesemo]

Someone tell me why Pyroar is here. Please. It may not have the greatest typing, and it is SR weak, but really. 106 speed? YES PLEASE. 109 Spec Attack? YES. It may have lack of coverage, but I can see a Scarf or Specs set with Overheat, Fire Blast, Hyper Voice and filler be a decent set. Remember, this is a Pokemon with better offensive stats AND speed AND bulk than Manectric, albeit with a worse typing and coverage. Either it will be banned outright, or number one in NU.

It could be helpful, I think, to look at Pyroar in comparison to the most similar pokemon of 5th gen NU- Charizard. The role of speedy, specially oriented fire type has been explored in depth in the context of NU, and to be honest, I don't see Pyroar performing dramatically better in that role than its 5th gen precursor.

It shares Charizard's Special Attack exactly, and the difference between their speeds isn't that consequential (the only notable things that it can beat are the Simis and Electabuzz). Although it isn't as weak to stealth rock, it's vulnerable to all other entry hazards and it lacks reliable recovery. Also, its coverage is awful compared to Zard's (it has Fire Blast, Hyper Voice, Dark Pulse and Hidden Power to work with- Zard at least had Focus Blast to get past Rock types and bulky Normals), leaving it hard countered by many of the defensive staples of the past generation. Also unlike Zard, its abilities are complete trash. It does have some cool stuff going for it, like setting up on basically every Misdreavus set, but I think it'll shine most as a late game cleaner as Charizard could, but without the additional ability to wallbreak through awesome coverage or mixed/physical sets (I do kinda want to try out Power Herb Pyroar, though).

I mean, I fully expect that it would be a top tier threat, but not to a greater degree than Zard was last gen. If it got Focus Blast, I agree that it might be a bit much, but it's currently shaping up to be no more than a solid offensive pokemon.

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252 SpA (custom) Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 118-141 (27.83 - 33.25%) -- possible 4HKO
252 SpA (custom) Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Regirock: 136-160 (37.67 - 44.32%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA (custom) Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 118-139 (29.94 - 35.27%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA (custom) Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 127-150 (30.97 - 36.58%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA (custom) Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Musharna: 163-193 (37.64 - 44.57%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA (custom) Hidden Power Grass vs. 104 HP / 152 SpD Alomomola: 194-230 (39.03 - 46.27%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Punchshroom]

Slurpuff would likely be an offensive threat to look out for in this meta, since it has the coverage to make up for its STAB: Flamethrower for Steels, Psychic for Poisons, Surf for Fires, but Surf hits Rock / Steels just as nicely. However, the loss of Gems means it cannot come out guns blazing like Unburden users before it and instead having to rely on Berries. SubSitrus and ChestoRest are the easiest ways to trigger Unburden while avoiding status, but this would reduce its coverage to 'STAB + 1 coverage move' as a result; 2-move coverage is much easier to handle than 3. Alternatively, a gimmicky Cotton Guard + Weakness Policy set can lure in the mostly physical Poison and Steel moves and turn the tables on them, but it won't work on Fire-types or really anything that won't trigger Weakness Policy, hence the gimmick.

Since the main way Slurpuff would be activating Unburden is via Berry, Unnerve would be a decent way to combat it. Arbok and Pyroar have Unnerve, but Arbok has better, less situational abilities while Pyroar has less useful alternative abilities (sadly, this is not saying much). However, Pyroar has Hyper Voice and Incinerate, both of which have been buffed: Hyper Voice strikes Slurpuff behind its Substitute, while Incinerate (which now has 60 BP) can burn the Berry right up to deny the Unburden sweep. Alternatively, Pyroar can also just Roar Slurpuff if Unburden has already been triggered. Incinerate or Roar won't see much use on Pyroar though who could use the newly more accurate Will-O-Wisp as its filler move.

Clear Smoggers also rain heavily on Slurpuff's parade, and nobody like wet whipped cream. Clear Smog Eviolite Magmar would likely the biggest pain for Slurpuff to handle, though other Clear Smoggers can just use their Poison STAB to end Slurpuff if they can survive the hit. Slurpuff may be threatening, but there are a lot of methods one can use that can stop it. If Gems make a comeback, Slurpuff may actually be able to use its 3-move coverage to devastating effect.

 

[fleurdyleurse]

Slurpuff would likely be an offensive threat to look out for in this meta, since it has the coverage to make up for its STAB: Flamethrower for Steels, Psychic for Poisons, Surf for Fires, but Surf hits Rock / Steels just as nicely. However, the loss of Gems means it cannot come out guns blazing like Unburden users before it and instead having to rely on Berries. SubSitrus and ChestoRest are the easiest ways to trigger Unburden while avoiding status, but this would reduce its coverage to 'STAB + 1 coverage move' as a result; 2-move coverage is much easier to handle than 3. Alternatively, a gimmicky Cotton Guard + Weakness Policy set can lure in the mostly physical Poison and Steel moves and turn the tables on them, but it won't work on Fire-types or really anything that won't trigger Weakness Policy, hence the gimmick.

Since the main way Slurpuff would be activating Unburden is via Berry, Unnerve would be a decent way to combat it. Arbok and Pyroar have Unnerve, but Arbok has better, less situational abilities while Pyroar has less useful alternative abilities (sadly, this is not saying much). However, Pyroar has Hyper Voice and Incinerate, both of which have been buffed: Hyper Voice strikes Slurpuff behind its Substitute, while Incinerate (which now has 60 BP) can burn the Berry right up to deny the Unburden sweep. Alternatively, Pyroar can also just Roar Slurpuff if Unburden has already been triggered. Incinerate or Roar won't see much use on Pyroar though who could use the newly more accurate Will-O-Wisp as its filler move.

Clear Smoggers also rain heavily on Slurpuff's parade, and nobody like wet whipped cream. Clear Smog Eviolite Magmar would likely the biggest pain for Slurpuff to handle, though other Clear Smoggers can just use their Poison STAB to end Slurpuff if they can survive the hit. Slurpuff may be threatening, but there are a lot of methods one can use that can stop it. If Gems make a comeback, Slurpuff may actually be able to use its 3-move coverage to devastating effect.

You do have Normal Gem to make use of Unburden but you would lose some coverage.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I think Pyroar's going to be a real threat in XY NU. IMO it will be just like Charizard, if not even better. We all know how terrifying Specs Charizard is. Now, slap that on Pyroar, which has the same base Special Attack stat and better Speed. Why do I say Pyroar might become an even better Charizard?

- it isn't that weak to Stealth Rock. Should be self-explanatory, but Pyroar isn't stripped of half its HP. This means it isn't revenge killed easily, and it can jump in multiple times.
- Spikes-stacking offense becomes less common. Scolipede, our best Spiker, leaves the tier. Roselia and Garbodor are good, but they don't even come close to how Scolipede is able to effortlessly lay down 1-2 layers of hazards each game. Whirlipede is lackluster before Speed Boost kicks in. All three take huge damage from Pyroar
- Revenge killers are less common. NO KANGASKHAN.
- Pyroar doesn't need coverage. We saw in BW how Charizard could simply click Fire Blast and watch things die. The only coverage options it needed were HP Grass, and Air Slash to hit things like Flareon. Pyroar has access to HP Grass, and while it is weaker, it still hits things for 4x, and those it can't get demolished by Fire Blast. Pyroar also has Hyper Voice, which is actually more powerful than Air Slash.
- it resists fairies, which is kinda cool

Of course, I'm mainly focusing on the Specs set here, but Scarf looks pretty decent as well. I can't say the same for Life Orb sets because of the lack of Roost, but Pyroar is looking to be a fearsome threat in XY, although much more predictable. It's not like people already have counters to Specs Zard, so Specs Pyroar is still going to be pretty fearsome. I see it easily fitting into Low S, or Top A, depending on how the metagame goes.


Has anybody thought of Assault Vest yet? In theory, it sounds pretty cool to fit it onto Pokemon like Samurott or something.

 

[perplexingpool]

Shuckle has definitely gained a lot this generation. Infestation is awesome, and access to both Sticky Web and Stealth Rock seems to make Shuckle a pretty good lead. It's typing is still terrible, it is still set up on by just about anything, and fails completely to Taunt, but I expect it to get a bit more use this gen. (Also Contrary Shell Smash is awesome)

Shuckle @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Calm Nature
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Sticky Web
- Toxic

 

[Punchshroom]

Thanks Robert Alfons , forgot about Mold Breaker Sawk negating Fur Coat. And even though it is a typo, I see what you did there with Sliggoo's "goo defensive typing", so keep that :P

I think Pyroar's going to be a real threat in XY NU. IMO it will be just like Charizard, if not even better. We all know how terrifying Specs Charizard is. Now, slap that on Pyroar, which has the same base Special Attack stat and better Speed. Why do I say Pyroar might become an even better Charizard?

First off, Charizard doesn't have a movepool so poor that it has a 'filler move' due to lack of coverage.

No doubt Pyroar will be a great offensive threat since it is currently NU's fastest Fire-type, and doesn't need to Flare Blitz everything and kill itself like Rapidash. But the lack of Focus Blast, Roost, (relative) bulk, boosting options, helpful abilities, and ability to go physical means Pyroar will never fit in Zard's shoes, even if the meta became more favorable for it.

 

[termi]

Thanks Robert Alfons , forgot about Mold Breaker Sawk negating Fur Coat. And even though it is a typo, I see what you did there with Sliggoo's "goo defensive typing", so keep that :P

That wasn't a typo though, my puns really are this bad, ahahaha

 

[Punchshroom]

Back with mini-updates.

- Mightyena gets Play Rough. Its stats still don't do it justice, but now that it has perfect Dark + Fairy coverage (assuming Mawile goes up and Klefki not end up down here for some reason), it can actually spare a moveslot and not be horribly walled by the (reduced amount of) Dark-resists and actually be more competent. Just something to keep in mind.

- Swellow gets Boomburst.

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do you need that for?

- Since Knock Off gains a boost in power, maybe, just maybe, Armaldo would be a halfway-decent spinner this time around since he can actually screw with Ghosts. His Speed issues are still present though, but that can be said for any NU Spinner (which still doesn't bode well for us :( )

 

[perplexingpool]

Read the OP, Mandibuzz is "banned". Go into uncharted territory and look in the Defog thread, I've been discussing Mandibuzz in it and possible sets using Defog, so it should help! :)

Haha woops, I missed that XD. However, there are many other good defog users in the teir, many of which i feel are underrated in 5th gen NU, particularly Articuno. 4x Stealth Rock weakness is a bummer, but could this set work?

Articuno @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Roost
- Ice Beam
- Defog
- Toxic/Roar/Substitute/Heal Bell/U-turn/Tailwind