CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll

[tawp64]

I think people should vote toward Ground or fighting (?). Steel and electric aren't going to make it unless someone gets over 50 people to vote on electric.

BLISSEY DOSEN'T MATTER!

Against WishBliss, you can get two NP boosts and 2HKO with aura sphere. While you boost up, what can it do?

Choice 1: Wish Stalling: Gives you more time to set up. Very predictable.
Choice 2: Seismic Toss Repeating: Just set up, roost, you'll be fine. Then you kill it.
Choice 3: Toxic + Seismic Toss Repeating: Same as choice 2, except easier for another turn. You are poisoned, but now you have a dying rabid special sweeper who tore through Blissey. What could stop this guy?

Please, somebody tell me why Fighting would be better than ground.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Guys please remember that primary typing is just that: one typing. We still have a secondary typing. As I outlined in my post a few pages back, I voted for Fighting because it is by far the most versatile typing out of the choices available, as far as its neutrality and key resistances go. Fighting means we can give an SR-weak secondary typing without making the whole thing SR weak. Fighting means we can give a secondary typing without making this pursuit or u-turn weak. Fighting means we have a guaranteed way to beat Blissey and Tyranitar (and yes, we do need the STAB on those moves to do significant damage to those if we're going special or special-mixed). It might well be that we end up choosing Electric or Ground as the secondary typing, if that's the direction we decide to take this in. However, if we decide that we really need, for some reason, a part-Psychic or part-Ghost CAP, then Fighting as the primary type will guarantee that we can do that without worrying about giving it some readily exploitable weaknesses. There's also the whole offensive synergy thing etc but if you want to read about all that go back to my original post.

tl;dr I have no problem with any of these typings but Fighting is probably the most versatile, which is why it's been on so many CAPs so far (and why is the "we have so many fighting-type CAPs!" argument being brought up, this is a competitive discussion, do you want to make a Bug/Flying CAP because we've never made one before)

 

[HouseFantastic]

I used to support ground, but now, I see that the best option available is Fighting.

When considering the ground type, but with its electric immunity that it would end up being too defensive. I want to see this project flourish into an offense-heavy monster duo, and not a balanced duo that only works to an extent. Considering the STAB possibility (I read the posts that say a fighting pokemon can use earthquake and vice versa, don't get me wrong), Earthquake would be an STAB with 100, Earth Power with 90. Focus Punch comes in at *150*- an excellent move to use with a baton-passed substitute, and when that's not a possibility, Close Combat and Focus Blast have a better-than-earthquake 120. There are four other fighting moves (Hammer Arm, Hi Jump Kick, DynamicPunch, Hammer Arm) that tie earthquake in terms of base power. That gives us a lot more to work with when it comes to STAB offensive design.

Thus, fighting wins my heart over. Many ghosts block it, but Gengar and Rotom both have levitate anyway, so ground only works against the very same threat half the time. Anyway, this can be easily fixed with a second type or just the move pursuit, whose discussion I am greatly looking forward to reading and participating in.

 

[NARFNra]

I voted for Fighting because it is by far the most versatile typing out of the choices available, as far as its neutrality and key resistances go.

Resistances of Fighting: Rock, Dark, Bug
Togekiss isn't pursuit weak, and easily deals with Tyranitar switch-ins. Ground also resists the Rock, so that's moot, and the Bug resist isn't really all that useful.

Fighting means we can give a secondary typing without making this pursuit or u-turn weak.

Togekiss isn't pursuit weak itself, and resists U-Turn. If the thing gets Baton Pass like several people have suggested, it's not going to really care about Pursuit too much anyway.

Fighting means we have a guaranteed way to beat Blissey and Tyranitar (and yes, we do need the STAB on those moves to do significant damage to those if we're going special or special-mixed).

But why does the PARTNER have to hurt Blissey/Tar if Kiss can handle them on it's own? Kiss can kill Blissey by NPing in it's face, as tawp said, and Tyranitar takes so much from Kiss it doesn't matter much anyway. And, anyway, If the Partner goes physical like several people have suggested, Tar and Blissey won't be a problem.

When considering the ground type, but with its electric immunity that it would end up being too defensive.

Uh, an immunity to ground doesn't necessarily make it defensive. It's better to switch Colossoil in on a TBolt then to switch Lucario, isn't it?

Earthquake would be an STAB with 100, Earth Power with 90. Focus Punch comes in at *150*- an excellent move to use with a baton-passed substitute, and when that's not a possibility, Close Combat and Focus Blast have a better-than-earthquake 120.

Close Combat lowers the users defense, which we don't want to do here if we want this thing to support or at least remove Kisses enemies. Focus Blast has unlikable accuracy, which makes Earthquake usually deal more over time.

There are four other fighting moves (Hammer Arm, Hi Jump Kick, DynamicPunch, Hammer Arm) that tie earthquake in terms of base power. That gives us a lot more to work with when it comes to STAB offensive design.

Hammer Arm will slow you down, Hi Jump Kick can deal potentially destructive recoil, DynamicPunch... no, just no. Considering how you're going to be going up against, say, Rotom, it's better to be able to switch in with no damage from a TBolt then to take a TBolt as you go in.

 

[tawp64]

Well, fighting gets some moves, but then it can't do anything to main counters to kiss. Ground is defensive, but it is also offensive!

Pros to Ground
-Synergy with kiss
-Absorbs Electric which is the type of most of kiss' counters
-Ground is physically defensive which helps with togekiss' special defense
-Ground is physically offensive which helps with togekiss' special offense
-Ground is slow which fits paralysis support from kiss
-Ground gets STAB earthquake which hits rock, steel, and electric for SE when togekiss gets flying and normal STAB
-Resists SR
-Dosen't mind sandstorm
-Should get stone edge for flying types

Cons to Ground
-Weak to ice
-Needs help from kiss to work (WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT)
-Can't hit levitate/flying with EQ

Pros to Fighting
-Resists SR
-Has "good" synergy with kiss
-Can probably do well alone (WHICH ISN'T THE POINT)

*I have no idea what else*

Cons to Fighting
-Electrics can still get them
-Can't hit STAB on ghosts

*????Anything????*

 

[GraffnTrix]

Well, fighting gets some moves, but then it can't do anything to main counters to kiss. Ground is defensive, but it is also offensive!

Pros to Ground
-Synergy with kiss
-Absorbs Electric which is the type of most of kiss' counters
-Ground is physically defensive which helps with togekiss' special defense
-Ground is physically offensive which helps with togekiss' special offense
-Ground is slow which fits paralysis support from kiss
-Ground gets STAB earthquake which hits rock, steel, and electric for SE when togekiss gets flying and normal STAB
-Resists SR
-Dosen't mind sandstorm
-Should get stone edge for flying types

Cons to Ground
-Weak to ice
-Needs help from kiss to work (WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT)
-Can't hit levitate/flying with EQ

Pros to Fighting
-Resists SR
-Has "good" synergy with kiss
-Can probably do well alone (WHICH ISN'T THE POINT)

*I have no idea what else*

Cons to Fighting
-Electrics can still get them
-Can't hit STAB on ghosts

*????Anything????*

There's a large anti-Fighting bias here. I voted for Fighting because Ground offers Electric type resistance, but what else? Fighting takes away that pesky Rock/Stealth Rock, and if you look at the OP, one of the questions is to see whether or not this Pokemon can do well alone.

 

[NARFNra]

There's a large anti-Fighting bias here. I voted for Fighting because Ground offers Electric type resistance, but what else? Fighting takes away that pesky Rock/Stealth Rock, and if you look at the OP, one of the questions is to see whether or not this Pokemon can do well alone.

Ground does too... Any other points?

EDIT:
Also, when the question says it can do well alone, I think it means "Can something tailored to Togekisses precise interests and dependent on Togekiss function in the metagame?" When he says "Fighting does the best on it's own" it means that it needs Togekiss the least, which is a very, very bad idea.

 

[tawp64]

There's a large anti-Fighting bias here. I voted for Fighting because Ground offers Electric type resistance, but what else? Fighting takes away that pesky Rock/Stealth Rock, and if you look at the OP, one of the questions is to see whether or not this Pokemon can do well alone.

Uh, ground resists rock.
This better not be a reason people are choosing fighting over ground.

[EDIT]: Hi-five, NARFNra! lol

 

[firecape]

Uh, ground resists rock.
This better not be a reason people are choosing fighting over ground.

[EDIT]: Hi-five, NARFNra! lol

Quoted for truth. I also think "people be hatin' on Fighting" is a justifiable reason to vote for it, because Ground resists more of Togekiss's weaknesses then Fighting does.

 

[tawp64]

FOR ALL YOU NON-DECIDED VOTERS READING THIS, PAY ATTENTION.

So, ends up that people chose fighting just for a SR resist. Well, just above shows that ground too, resists SR. So now think hardly about which you would expect to be more helpful.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

Dont forget that CAP11 should not only be able to support Togekiss, but also to benefit from Togekiss' support, and I don't see switching into immunity being "support". What would be the point of passing it a Nasty Plot if it get stopped cold by Blissey, TTar and Snorlax ? A Bulky, specially offensive (or maybe mixed) Fighting type would probably be by itself a good supporter (like Hariyama), bout could become a major threat with a SpA boost. Furthermore, we all know how good is Flying/Fighting offensive synergy, so such a special offensive duo with both pokemons able to beat or set up on special walls could be very dangerous.

That kind of synergy might ne bot as obvious as an Electric immunity, but it's very specific to Togekiss itself, whereas with a Ground typing, we're helping every other Flying type juste as much, and even more Gyarados (especially considering it will have to beat Rotom-A and Gengar).

As Togekiss' typing have no significant advantadge over other Flying types (Ghost doesn't matter when Rotoma-A is your main counter), any synergy built with its typing will inevitably also help other Flying types. That's why we must look to what sets Togekiss apart : Flying STAB, ability to beat special walls and Nasty Plot Passing. Fighting works great with those threes, and also covers Togekiss' main weakness.

Don't forget that this is only the primary typing, the one that gives the pokemon its orientation. Should countering Electric-types its orientation? Only if it was meant to be Gyarados' perfect mate. Ofenssive and supportive synergy with Togekiss is the way to go, and if we need specific resistances, there are still secondary typings and abilities for that. If Electric resistance is really needed, Fighting/Electric works just fine. If we really don't want paralysis, Limber also works, while not helping Gyara too much.

 

[NARFNra]

Why would you pass the plot if you could kill Blissey with Kiss itself anyway? I was under the assumption we were going to give the CAP mixed decent but not great stats, so it could take down things like Blissey that bothered it, while at the same time being able to abuse things passed to it from Togekiss. Also:

Flying STAB, ability to beat special walls and Nasty Plot Passing.

Whats this about we needing to have the CAP beat Blissey? I thought the point was to help with things Togekiss CAN'T do/deal with?

And as for the "other flyers" thing...
As danmantincan said:

-Salamence: It wants a Steel partner to take Dragon and Ice attacks, while luring Ground, Fighting and Fire attacks. It does not want a partner that adds to its 4x Ice weakness.
-Gyarados: Sure, Ground gives and immunity to Electric and a resistance to Ground, however, bulky waters are common switch-ins to Gyarados, who would then eliminate CAP11 with STAB Surfs. HP Electric Celebi also laughs as it Grass Knot/Leaf Storms CAP11.
-Gliscor: Really?
-Skarmory: Ground removes the fear of Electric attacks, but Skarmory is still the target of many special attacks, such as STAB Surfs(And Fire attacks, which Ground doesn't resist), and assuming CAP11 is going to have Defense>Sp. Defense, it can be 2HKOd by powerful neutral special attacks.
-Dragonite: Refer to Salamence.
-Zapdos: Doesn't need the Electric immunity since it only takes neutral damage and can make it a resistance if it is able to Roost first.
So saying that it will become the partner for other flying types is not true.

There you go.

EDIT: BL Fliers:
-Yanmega - Yanmega doesn't really attract Bolt as much as others, and the things it does attract are Fires and Ices, which Ground doesn't resist.
-Honchkrow - Unless it goes the way of Ground/Electric, It's not likely to get TWave. While it likes Entry Hazards, it's also going to be drawing Ice attacks, and neutrality to fighting isn't good either.
-Staraptor - Staraptor is the closest anythings going to get in OU to being physical Togekiss, but he's got what he needs to break steel already, and the only reason it'd keep Ground around is to stop Rotom.
-Crobat - Crobat is usually a lead, or depending on Roost. Most leads don't carry Boltbeam, so there you go. A Special Sweeper might want backup, but wasting the NP boost can be bad for the team.

 

[tawp64]

Well, from what I understand from that paragraph, heres what I gotta say.

1) I think passing NP boosts would waste a slot for Togekiss with BP.
2) Togekiss can take care of Blissey like I said up earlier, a ground CAP would beat Tyranitar, and Snorlax would also have the same problems as Blissey.
3) I think ground helps kiss more than fighting. Just because ground also helps Gyara, dosen't mean it can't be kiss' mate in the end. It's main typing over it's stats, moves, ability etc is what will make the general difference. This ground typing would only benefit for kiss. That's what we should concentrate on now. What type helps Togekiss, not Gyarados. Stats, moves, and ability will set it apart from Gyarados' perfect mate from Togekiss' perfect mate. That stuff is for later.
4) Ground beats Rotom and Gengar. It can use moves other than earthquake.
5) That last paragraph is answered by 3.

 

[NARFNra]

This ground typing would only benefit for kiss. That's what we should concentrate on now. What type helps Togekiss, not Gyarados. Stats, moves, and ability will set it apart from Gyarados' perfect mate from Togekiss' perfect mate. That stuff is for later.

I agree with this. We're building a mate for Gyara, so what if it helps Gyara a small amount? If it's a physical attacker like several have said, It'd be kind of annoying to have a twin physical group of Ground and Gyara deal with, say, SWAMPERT. It's like saying "OMG all grounds that work well with flying make Gyara better!" and everyone seems to have latched onto it.

Everyone seems to be saying "Blarg Gyarados" But as mentioned in my post, Gyara's switch-ins can handle a Ground poke.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

Why would you pass the plot if you could kill Blissey with Kiss itself anyway? I was under the assumption we were going to give the CAP mixed decent but not great stats, so it could take down things like Blissey that bothered it, while at the same time being able to abuse things passed to it from Togekiss.

If we want our CAP to be bulky and to go mixed in order to beat Blissey, then it pretty much needs to get STAB Fighting. It only works without it on Dragonite and Electivire because they have insanely high Base Atk, but we want our CAP to be mainly specially offensive (or we'd rather have Gliscor pass it Spe and Atk boosts). Furthermore, to preserve its bulk, it should be able to beat it without having to use Close Combat.

Not going mixed at all with NP passing would be even better, because then it could use its special STAB against other pokemons.

Whats this about we needing to have the CAP beat Blissey? I thought the point was to help with things Togekiss CAN'T do/deal with?

Not exactly : many other pokemons can't deal with what counters Togekiss (including Gyarados). What we want is not perfect resistances like celetran, because Togekiss' weaknesses are shared by many other pokemons (whereas Celebi and Tran's typings are uniques.) We want two pokemons that can work together. A specially offensive core that can actually beat on set up on the three most used special walls would definitely dangerous. By the way, Togekiss also beats Vaporeon if it can get around status, but I don't see a Ground-type switching on Togekiss to put up a Safegard, Taunt it or use Heal Bell...

There you go.

You can add to that list :

-Togekiss : double ice weakness, strong and fast Ice users like Starmie give them both problems (no, we can't assume that both pokemons are already out with only SR damage)

Perfect coverage is not needed to make a good pair. Do you really think a duo that no single pokemon can beat is feasible ? There are still four other pokemons to take care of these weaknesses

How would an electric-immune CAP that can remove Rotom-A, Gengar and Zapdos not be paired with Gyarados ? Sure, they would both be weak to Celebi and bulky waters, but if you can't deal with them with your four other pokemons, something is wrong on your team.

 

[Maugoross]

''LO Starmie Ice Beam vs 252/0 Togekiss: 53.5% - 63.1%, meaning you can T-wave and Roost.''

While Fighting offers better synergy ( It may win for me though), the rock resist and electric immunity are to good to pass up.
Ice attacks are rarely Stabbed so Togekiss can survive an Ice Beam of Starmie as shown.
there's always an ability like Thick Fat or secondary typing to compensate for the Ice weakness.

Voting Ground.

 

[NARFNra]

Not exactly : many other pokemons can't deal with what counters Togekiss (including Gyarados). What we want is not perfect resistances like celetran, because Togekiss' weaknesses are shared by many other pokemons (whereas Celebi and Tran's typings are uniques.)

Uh, I don't remember saying anything about perfect resistances... ever...

Perfect coverage is not needed to make a good pair. Do you really think a duo that no single pokemon can beat is feasible ? There are still four other pokemons to take care of these weaknesses

As for the "Something is wrong with the rest of your team thing", I could say the same thing about "Needing to beat Blissey". If you don't have something else on your team that can beat Blissey, there's obviously something wrong with it.

Not going mixed at all with NP passing would be even better, because then it could use its special STAB against other pokemons.

Something tells me two special attackers are going to have a problem somewhere, and not just Blissey.

If we want our CAP to be bulky and to go mixed in order to beat Blissey, then it pretty much needs to get STAB Fighting. It only works without it on Dragonite and Electivire because they have insanely high Base Atk, but we want our CAP to be mainly specially offensive (or we'd rather have Gliscor pass it Spe and Atk boosts). Furthermore, to perserve its bulk, it should be able to beat it without having to use Close Combat.

If you take leeway and give our CAP, something very powerful like 120 Base Sp. Attack, Vacuum Wave after an NP doesn't work on Blissey. Focus Blast still doesn't get a 1HKO. I doubt we'd try and give it more then that unless we really wanted to go crazy just to kill Blissey. Also, relying on it to take, say, a TWave/Toxic from Blissey as it switches in is bad, as it gives Blissey a chance to run to something equipped to kill you, e.g. ZAPDOS. Because guess what, you better hope you have enough to kill it with HP Rock.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

This ground typing would only benefit for kiss. That's what we should concentrate on now. What type helps Togekiss, not Gyarados. Stats, moves, and ability will set it apart from Gyarados' perfect mate from Togekiss' perfect mate. That stuff is for later.

I disagree. You can give a Fighting pokemon moves to support Togekiss better, you can add a secondary typing, ability or movepool to let it take on Electric pokemons. But you can't prevent an Electric-immune one that can beat Electric pokemons from helping Gyarados !

We're building a mate for Gyara, so what if it helps Gyara a small amount

I'll assume you meant "a mate for Togekiss". It matters a lot.
Yeah, sure, we're building the perfect utility counter anyways and Magic Guard is great for that, so what if it can sweep with LO "a small amount"?
Yeah, sure, we're building the perfect rapid spinner anyway, so what if it can kill everything that moves "a small amount" ?

We really need to learn from our mistakes. We're not making the best Togekiss partner ever. We're making a pokemon that will be used as Togekiss' partner, because that's the best way to use it.

By giving it the Ground typing, we're pushing it toward the "switch on TBolts and dispose of Electric types" direction. Sure, that would help Togekiss, but also Gyarados, and as the latter is much stronger, it will be used over Togekiss. It's as simple as that.

As for the "Something is wrong with the rest of your team thing", I could say the same thing about "Needing to beat Blissey". If you don't have something else on your team that can beat Blissey, there's obviously something wrong with it.

Well, that's really not my point. You can't just quote a part of my post to make it seem like I was making your mistake...

Something tells me two special attackers are going to have a problem somewhere, and not just Blissey.

Ttar? Nope. Snorlax? Nope. Vaporeon? Togekiss beats it, and maybe CAP if we make it Fighting/Electric. Latias? Gone. Keep looking... Umbreon? Well, definitely nope...

That's why hyper offense strategies often focus on the special side : there are only so many good special walls, and usually not on the same team.

If you take leeway and give our CAP, something very powerful like 120 Base Sp. Attack, Vacuum Wave after an NP doesn't work on Blissey. Focus Blast still doesn't get a 1HKO. I doubt we'd try and give it more then that unless we really wanted to go crazy just to kill Blissey. Also, relying on it to take, say, a TWave/Toxic from Blissey as it switches in is bad, as it gives Blissey a chance to run to something equipped to kill you, e.g.

Who said we needed to OHKO it? Who said we would switch from Togekiss to CAP? The point is that BOTH pokemons would be pretty good against it. Togekiss can't OHKO but can Flinch it to death. CAP doesn't need to OHKO if it can deal with status, which will be the case.

ZAPDOS. Because guess what, you better hope you have enough to kill it with HP Rock.

Well, for starters, Fighting-types always get Rock moves, and Zapdos usually carries either HP Ice or HP Grass to hit Ground. I really don't see why it would beat a Fighting CAP but not a Ground one, as STAB TBolt is just as strong as SE HP Ice/Grass.

 

[tawp64]

What I think you're saying is that the CAP must work with Togekiss and that's it. Strictly limited to Togekiss. But Celetran isn't always Celetran, in fact, most the time Celebi and Heatran aren't on the same teams. Pokemon shouldn't be limited to another pokemon even if its concept is to be another pokemon's partner. I bet if the pokemon is fighting, it will end up being a sweeper on most people's teams without Togekiss.

 

[NARFNra]

I'll assume you meant "a mate for Togekiss". It matters a lot.
Yeah, sure, we're building the perfect utility counter anyways and Magic Guard is great for that, so what if it can sweep with LO "a small amount"?
Yeah, sure, we're building the perfect rapid spinner anyway, so what if it can kill everything that moves "a small amount" ?

Krill can't sweep with LO a small amount, it sweeps very well with LO. As such, it is often used that way. As for the Rapid Spinner thing, Killing everything that moves would never be described as small.

Well, that's really not my point. You can't just quote a part of my post to make it seem like I was making your mistake...

Ahem:

Perfect coverage is not needed to make a good pair. Do you really think a duo that no single pokemon can beat is feasible ? There are still four other pokemons to take care of these weaknesses

How would an electric-immune CAP that can remove Rotom-A, Gengar and Zapdos not be paired with Gyarados ? Sure, they would both be weak to Celebi and bulky waters, but if you can't deal with them with your four other pokemons, something is wrong on your team.

e.g. You're saying(About a ground CAP working with Gyara) : "The rest of your team should be able to beat Celebi and bulky waters!". I'm saying (About how you insist CAP11 be Fighting to kill Blissey) "The rest of your team should be able to beat Blissey!".

By giving it the Ground typing, we're pushing it toward the "switch on TBolts and dispose of Electric types" direction. Sure, that would help Togekiss, but also Gyarados, and as the latter is much stronger, it will be used over Togekiss. It's as simple as that.

Funny thing is, the more often something is used, the more people prepare for it. Everyone expects a Ground/Volt Absorber to be waiting in the wings with Gyara, so they prepare things such as HP Grass and Ice Beam. Everyone knows how to deal with Colossoil don't they, and isn't it a Ground that beats Rotom and the like?

You can give a Fighting pokemon moves to support Togekiss better, you can add a secondary typing, ability or movepool to let it take on Electric pokemons.

^ This part right here seems to say that the typing directly determines the moves. Something tells me that's not right.

But you can't prevent an Electric-immune one that can beat Electric pokemons from helping Gyarados !

I'm preparing the reply to this part, wait a minute or so. In the meantime, let me just say this: You're building a Fighter designed to stop Ghosts and such, and help a Ground immune special attacker. Things like Gengar and Zapdos are going to love our little Rock killing friend.

EDIT: And that's a another thing, if you want it to kill Blissey so much, what makes you think people won't just put it on their team to deal with Blissey?

Also, I notice you avoided replying to my mention that Togekiss doesn't need to pass stats to kill Blissey.

 

[SJCrew]

We really need to learn from our mistakes. We're not making the best Togekiss partner ever. We're making a pokemon that will be used as Togekiss' partner, because that's the best way to use it.

You just said the same thing twice. We ARE making the best Togekiss partner ever, and that will be the best way to use it because...it's the best Togekiss partner ever. >_>

By giving it the Ground typing, we're pushing it toward the "switch on TBolts and dispose of Electric types" direction. Sure, that would help Togekiss, but also Gyarados, and as the latter is much stronger, it will be used over Togekiss. It's as simple as that.

Once again, I am astonished at the lack of competitive viewpoints in this thread. Too many people are looking at type matchups without applying it to the Pokemon using it or the standard metagame overall.

Gyarados's enemies are mainly bulky Water types, not Electric, because they resists its main STAB and a most of them have decent defenses. Starmie, Suicune, and Vaporeon, are very common counters to it, just to name a few. Even random bulky Water types from NU counter it without breaking a sweat.

Electric types, on the other hand, don't resist Waterfall and have notoriously bad defense. Of the few that actually possess a degree of physical bulk, two of them aren't even weak to Ground, so CAP11 isn't a guaranteed counter to them. If any of those Pokemon attempt to switch in on Gyarados, they will either take a very hard hit from Waterfall, or watch it DD and KO them afterward. The Ground types that exist in OU don't often pair up with Gyarados as it is because BEING GROUND TYPE DOESN'T MEAN YOU KILL EVERYTHING THAT HAS AN ELECTRIC MOVE.

I hate following trends, honest to God I do, but it seems nobody in this thread fucking reads anything that isn't in bold.

 

[Reynbowz]

What I think you're saying is that the CAP must work with Togekiss and that's it. Strictly limited to Togekiss. But Celetran isn't always Celetran, in fact, most the time Celebi and Heatran aren't on the same teams.

The thing about Celetran is that they do not have massively superior alternatives. As Yoki was saying, if a Pokemon helps both Togekiss and Gyara, naturally Gyara will be chosen instead. Togekiss isn't low-OU for nothing.

It is because of this that we must avoid decisions that would do more than help Togekiss exclusively --- yes, even a "small amount". Because that "small amount" is enough reason on its own to opt for the more practical, reliable Pokemon.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

Krill can't sweep with LO a small amount, it sweeps very well with LO. As such, it is often used that way. As for the Rapid Spinner thing, Killing everything that moves would never be described as small.

That was ironic. When we made Krill and Colossoil, theses issues were brought up, but people responded that they wouldn't be that good, because that's not what they were designed for, and that we could work around it... Well, we couldn't.

You just said the same thing twice. We ARE making the best Togekiss partner ever, and that will be the best way to use it because...it's the best Togekiss partner ever. >_>

Nope, there is a subtle but important difference. If Togekiss' best partner ever helps too much Gyarados, even to a lesser extent, it will be used with it because Gyara is so much better than Togekiss. The same way Colossoil is the best rapid spinner ever, but killing everything that moves is even better than preventing secondary damage, so that's what we use it for.

EDIT: And that's a another thing, if you want it to kill Blissey so much, what makes you think people won't just put it on their team to deal with Blissey?

Also, I notice you avoided replying to my mention that Togekiss doesn't need to pass stats to kill Blissey.

I dis, but you might not have understood. The point is not "killing Blissey so Togekiss can sweep". The point is "having an offensive core were BOTH pokemons can beat Blissey, TTar and Snorlax who usually stop any special threat". Hyper Offense teams often use only special attackers and rely on explosion to kill the opponent's special wall and then sweep. With Fighting, we could create an offensive core with a similar strategy, except that it could actually set up on said special walls. Status doesn't matter if we give him Safeguard, Heal Bell (that Togekiss already have), or it could just substitute up.

This part right here seems to say that the typing directly determines the moves. Something tells me that's not right.

Sorry for my mediocre English, that's not what I meant. What I'm saying is that you can improve any pokemon (and in this case, a fighting-type) with secondary typing, moves and ability, but you can't prevent an Electric-immune one that can beat Electric pokemons from helping other pokemons who have trouble with them, like Gyarados. Gyarados is only partnered with pokemons that can help him with bulky water, and would love a perfect electric counter.

By the way, we arleady made a Ground-typed Rotom killer. That doesn't mean we can't make another one, but I don't remember seeing Colossoil partnered with Togekiss. With Gyarados, I definitely do.

ZAPDOS. Because guess what, you better hope you have enough to kill it with HP Rock.

I already responded to that, but with Nasty plot passed, even Breloom OHKO with Rocks Physically defensive Zapdos (Specially defensive is never used). Yeah, that's right, it has the same power as Forretress or Farfetch'd, 60 base SpA, no STAB. Nasty Plot is that strong with the right coverage.

 

[NARFNra]

I dis, but you might not have understood. The point is not "killing Blissey so Togekiss can sweep". The point is "having an offensive core were BOTH pokemons can beat Blissey, TTar and Snorlax who usually stop any special threat". Hyper Offense teams often use only special attackers and rely on explosion to kill the opponent's special wall and then sweep. With Fighting, we could create an offensive core with a similar strategy, except that it could actually set up on special walls.

The point is that Blissey has to die for the good of the Offensive core. As far as I can see, it would be a waste to pass a NP to CAP11 unless you gave it much better stat spreads or move coverage, and if you did you'd be making it fare to well on its own. If Rotom or something came in to kill it, passing to a Ground type would be much better, as Scarftom would either kill or heavily damage Togekiss and non scarftom would still punish your Fighting CAP11 for a good amount, considering nearly everyone's agreed on making it a Physically defensive pokemon.

I'll reply to the others later, but you still don't counter this:

And that's a another thing, if you want it to kill Blissey so much, what makes you think people won't just put it on their team to deal with Blissey?

Very important thing here. If we're making a special Fighter that can kill all the OU Special walls bar Vapeoreon, I guarantee it's going to be used by itself often. Even if you suggest we make it have only good Special Attack unless it's passed it, you're going to have to deal with Celebi and it's CM baton passing, and I bet Celebi is also going to like having a recipient that can take U-Turns without fear and kill Ghosts.

I already responded to that, but with Nasty plot passed, even Breloom OHKO with Rocks Physically defensive Zapdos (Specially defensive is never used). Yeah, Farfetch'd, that's right, 58 base SpA, no STAB. Nasty Plot is that strong with the right coverage.

CAP11 is still likely to be slower, and if it comes up against something like Rotom, suffering from the damage it took as it switched in. Zapdos could likely put it out of commission right then and there. And by then, you've either got got a paralyzed/toxiced Fighter(Due to it coming in on Blissey) with likely critical HP, or a highly damaged fighter hanging on by hardly anything and just waiting for Scizor, Gross, Infernape, or even another CAP11 to come in and wreck it with Priority.

EDIT: I'm pretty much done for this morning, going to sleep and all, I'll be back to argue my point later but you guys can keep it up, can't you?

 

[SJCrew]

Nope, there is a subtle but important difference. If Togekiss' best partner ever helps too much Gyarados, even to a lesser extent, it will be used with it because Gyara is so much better than Togekiss. The same way Colossoil is the best rapid spinner ever, but killing everything that moves is better than preventing secondary damage, so that's what we use it for.

no really, you did just type the same thing twice, not to mention it's completely and utterly wrong. like, think: what other pokemon helps gyarados JUST FROM BEING A GROUND TYPE? if your answer is nothing, then you are correct and we should stop pursuing this argument.

Also, think about this: there is no way we can guarantee which Pokemon this CAP will be used alongside. If it has good offensive stats and a niche to fill on an offensive team, people will use it for just that. If CAP 11 has the stats, moves, and typing to be on my team, I will use it on my team. Bottom line: we can't manipulate the player into using this for what we want it to. There WILL be things this CAP can do besides partner up with Togekiss, the same way Heatran and Celebi have better shit to do than hang around each other all day.

I mean, really, has any of you ever stopped to think that if it's only any good with the support of one, specific Pokemon that's almost synonymous with being absolutely worthless? Not only is it completely impossible to give it such limited utility, but it's borderline stupid; we're making a damn good Pokemon that has a strongly suggested use, not a ball-and-chain mission statement it can't deviate from. If our real objective here is to make another Plusle and Minun, let me know so I can stop wasting my time and energy.

(Specially defensive is never used).

But if I need to use it to counter this Togekiss/CAP11 combo, then you bet your ass I can and will do it. Anything is fair game on the defense.