CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll

What maintype should CAP 11 have?


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FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
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Resistances of Fighting: Rock, Dark, Bug
Togekiss isn't pursuit weak, and easily deals with Tyranitar switch-ins. Ground also resists the Rock, so that's moot, and the Bug resist isn't really all that useful.
You missed the entire point of that section.

First of all, Togekiss does not "deal easily" with Tyranitar switch-ins unless you run both Nasty Plot and Aura Sphere (unboosted aura sphere does not come close to killing it), and while those are good moves on Togekiss they're possibly not the best use of those slots depending on the user's team. It's like saying "Infernape doesn't have a problem with vaporeon because it can run run swords dance and close combat", and while this is true not every infernape runs those moves.
And this is discounting the popular ScarfTar, which wrecks Togekiss without a second thought.

More relevantly, those resistances matter because we don't have to base our secondary typing around not being pursuit/u-turn weak, which is definitely a big deal. That way if we decide to give this thing a Psychic secondary typing, which is easily a good idea, we won't have to worry about "crap this core loses to Pursuit". Note that Pursuit is one of the few weaknesses of CeleTran, so let's learn from that...having Togekiss' partner picked off by a quick Pursuit from Scizor or Tyranitar is not very cool.
As far as U-Turn goes, Togekiss has impressive defenses and resists U-Turn, but it definitely will not appreciate it from the likes of CB Scizor (an average of 35% to 4/0 Togekiss, which with SR means it's taking a whopping 60% damage for doing literally nothing).

Much more important is how Fighting's neutrality and key resistances compares to Ground's. Ground brings significant weaknesses to Water and Ice to the table, which means we nearly have to compensate for these with a secondary typing or end up with a pretty crappy core. It is immune to Electric, which is significant, but can't hit common Electric types (Rotom, Zapdos) with its primary STAB. It resists Rock and Bug, but so does Fighting. Flying/Ground have decent offensive synergy, but not nearly as good as Flying/Fighting.
But the most significant part is the easily exploitable weaknesses it brings to the table. Do you know why Machamp seems so damn bulky despite its fairly average defenses (90/80/85, marginally worse than Salamence's 95/80/80)? It's because Fighting's weaknesses are very uncommon attacking types in the metagame , compared to Ground's weaknesses. What this means is that we don't have to give this an inordinate amount of bulk just so it doesn't die immediately to Starmie or Vaporeon, and we don't have to focus our secondary typing on negating those weaknesses. We can instead focus on more offensive stats and more offense-oriented typing, which is fundamentally the point of this core.


But why does the PARTNER have to hurt Blissey/Tar if Kiss can handle them on it's own? Kiss can kill Blissey by NPing in it's face, as tawp said, and Tyranitar takes so much from Kiss it doesn't matter much anyway. And, anyway, If the Partner goes physical like several people have suggested, Tar and Blissey won't be a problem.
Already covered that Togekiss does not "handle" TTar.

As to Blissey...all it's going to do is switch in, Thunderwave you and, upon finding out that you carry Aura Sphere, just go straight to Rotom, who walls and kills you. No one is going to leave in Blissey on an Aura Sphere Togekiss when it's easily walled by several other popular stall members, and Togekiss that don't have Aura Sphere don't stand much chance (Togekiss needs to be at +6 to guarantee the 2hko with Air Slash...). So having a partner who can OHKO Blissey with a +2 STAB Aura Sphere or just a regular Close Combat is valuable. Now, the primary advantage of Ground in this case is that it is immune to paralysis, which is nice. However, it's not going to be doing much back to Blissey. If it's specially based, Earth Power will barely scratch it, and even if it's physical it will need an attack greater than 100 base and Life Orb to guarantee the 2hko on Blissey with Earthquake. That's not very impressive. I'd rather risk Paralysis and at least get boosted Paybacks or whatever instead of being immune to paralysis but being walled by Blissey anyway.
 
Let me just quote mine (with a bit added on) and Rising Dusk's previous post for reference, as no one has really told us why we're wrong:

Guys, I implore you, listen to me!

Togekiss needs help with Rotom-A and Zapdos. Think about what you're doing when you vote for Fighting as the primary typing. You are giving CAP11 a type that helps with none of Togekiss's offensive problems. On top of this, Togekiss already has Aura Sphere to punch through things like Tyranitar (and Blissey at +2/4). Fighting is completely redundant offensive coverage with Togekiss! Please, for the love of all that is good in CAP, don't vote for Fighting. I wouldn't be emphasizing it so seriously if it weren't so important. Literally, it's so mind-numbingly critical to this CAP's success that I cannot believe Fighting is seeing as many votes as it is. I don't even care what you vote for, as long as it's not Fighting. Everything else helps CAP11 way more than Fighting can ever hope to.

Please, everyone, consider what you're doing! >.<
I'm a little lost for words on WHY Ground type is being the clear favorite.

FACT: It is weak to Ice
FACT: It does nothing to Gengar/Rotom
FACT: It would be scared of Starmie
FACT: It does nothing to Zapdos
FACT: Colossoil might as well do the same thing
FACT: The only real two things it does is switch in to Electric attacks, and have an SR resistence.

Folks let us just get this out of the way first, Ground does not have to be defensive, we can make it 1/255/1/255/1/1 if we needed to. We choose the base stats, previous bias' really don't have much influence. (Look at Stratagem)

These are the reasons I voted for Electric. Electric can actually hit Starmie, Zapdos, and Gengar hard while being able to absorb Ice attacks way better then a ground type would be able to. Also, it lures in Earthquakes to allow Togekiss a free switch-in DAMAGE free if played right. That in turn can allow Togekiss to setup whatever it wants to. Also, it pressures the opponent by making them think, " Hm... if I Earthquake (Perfect Mate), what if he brings in Togekiss? Maybe I should go for a Neutral move..." and then you can stay in which causes the opponent to get a bit frustrated at his misplay and he will begin to second guess other decisions throughout the match.

In short, again, Electric is the clear choice here.
 
Voted fighting, as it rids togekiss of many of it's counters and resists rock. Ground shares a weakness to ice beam which isn't too bad,until someone switches in something (like starmie) they can easily 2 ko togekiss on the switch. Also,a good secondary typing, or a nice movepool, could allow this to kill many threats such as Rotom or zapdos.
 

FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
I don't get this "togekiss doesn't need help with blissey/ttar because of aura sphere" argument. Really? You know it can learn Shadow Ball and AncientPower right? So why does it need help with Rotom/Zapdos?

Togekiss' movepool is insane. It can probably find a move to hit everything in the tier SE...but not at the same time. Having a partner that can pick up the slack with some of the coverage actually lets Togekiss run moves like Shadow Ball so that it can pick off Rotom if it wants to.

And this is even ignoring the fact that Rotom/Zapdos will not necessarily counter our Fighter (Heracross lols at both, for example).
 
Ancient power? Make me laugh. 60 power isn't going to get togekiss past zapdos or defensive zapdos. SE does not mean ko, perfectly illustrated by electivire. Hp ice is better than that.
 
Let me just quote mine (with a bit added on) and Rising Dusk's previous post for reference, as no one has really told us why we're wrong:
No-one has told Dusk why he's wrong because... he's right. You can justify Fighting defensively (Rock Resist), but not in attack... Togekiss already carries a Fighting move most of the time.

On the other hand, I disagree with much of the post of your own you quoted.

Icy Vegeta's 1st point: Ground is weak to Ice

This is not really a problem. Togekiss has very good special defense, and Ice attacks in OU are almost always special attacks without STAB. Looking at the pokemon which trouble 'Kiss, the only one using an Ice attack is Cressalia - that's a threat because of its defenses and Thunder Wave, not Ice Beam.

It is also quite possible that if CaP is Ground, it will be specially defensive to partially cover this.

Icy Vegeta's 2nd point: Ground does nothing to Gengar/Rotom

Actually, Ground pokemon are one of the best counters against Rotom. They switch in fearlessly on its Charge Beam or Thunderbolt, and then use a coverage move to take it out. Gengar is a problem to every team, but if CaP is specially defensive, then it should be able to take a neutral hit and 2HKO with a coverage move.

Icy Vegeta's 3rd point: Ground would be scared of Starmie

Starmie would be a problem. That's a pity, but no pokemon can counter everything.
Icy Vegeta's 4th point: Ground does nothing to Zapdos

Actually, a Ground-typing takes Zapdos' strongest attack out of play. Now it has to use Hidden Power. But that's not the strongest of moves and not STAB, so if CaP is specially defensive then it can take those and reply with a coverage move (or its second STAB, if appropriate).

Icy Vegeta's 5th point: Colossoil might as well do the same thing

"Let's make a Ground pokemon" does not mean "let's recreate Colossoil" any more than "let's make an Electric pokemon" means "let's recreate Jolteon." Colossoil was not targeted at Togekiss at all... this point is silly.

Icy Vegeta's 6th point: The only good things about Ground are resistances to Electric and Rock

Well... pretty much, yeah, they're the best things, because those are two of Togekiss' three resistances. A resistance to Rock is really very helpful, because Stealth Rock is everywhere these days. But it also means that CaP could be a primarily special attacker (to receive Nasty Plot) and still have a viable EQ option thanks to STAB. That's a great move right there. And all its weaknesses are to special attacks, which Togekiss is good at taking. Surely, given this the first thing we're deciding about our CaP, that's a pretty good start?

I don't get this "togekiss doesn't need help with blissey/ttar because of aura sphere" argument. Really? You know it can learn Shadow Ball and AncientPower right? So why does it need help with Rotom/Zapdos?
Aura Sphere is on almost all its main sets. Shadow Ball and Ancient Power aren't.
 
Wow, to start I'm very surprised at the amount of people choosing fighting and ground, seriously IMO I see these two types not helping togekiss at all because as Icy Vegeta quoted and said, they can't hit ghosts, and whatever these (perfect mate's) can do if their ground or fighting Colossoil might as well be remade.

Anyways I really think that either steel or electric should be the main typing because they both attract ground attacks like magnets and electric can actually deal with those bulky waters that switch into togekiss. Steel can resist ice and can take SR and it can also potentially rapid spin entry hazourds away.

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND CAPISH PLEASE DON'T CHOOSE GROUND OR FIGHTING
 
Aura sphere < Blissey Pretty Simple. Togekiss can not take Close Combats or dynamic punches very well. Steel causes infernape/ machamp to be a really good counter. Collosoil does make a pretty good togekiss mate, and any ground type we make would likely only be a slightly improved collosoil. Collosoil does a good job against many of togekiss's counters, such as rotom, but by no means does a good job at much else when it comes to helping togekiss.
 
No-one has told Dusk why he's wrong because... he's right. You can justify Fighting defensively (Rock Resist), but not in attack... Togekiss already carries a Fighting move most of the time.

On the other hand, I disagree with much of the post of your own you quoted.

Icy Vegeta's 1st point: Ground is weak to Ice

This is not really a problem. Togekiss has very good special defense, and Ice attacks in OU are almost always special attacks without STAB. Looking at the pokemon which trouble 'Kiss, the only one using an Ice attack is Cressalia - that's a threat because of its defenses and Thunder Wave, not Ice Beam.

It is also quite possible that if CaP is Ground, it will be specially defensive to partially cover this.

Syclant/Mamoswime/Weavile aren't threats? Wow I must be a noob.

Icy Vegeta's 2nd point: Ground does nothing to Gengar/Rotom

Actually, Ground pokemon are one of the best counters against Rotom. They switch in fearlessly on its Charge Beam or Thunderbolt, and then use a coverage move to take it out. Gengar is a problem to every team, but if CaP is specially defensive, then it should be able to take a neutral hit and 2HKO with a coverage move.

Really, so already adding a move to take out a threat, so you already have a STAB Attack and now you have to have another move. Noted.

Icy Vegeta's 3rd point: Ground would be scared of Starmie

Starmie would be a problem. That's a pity, but no pokemon can counter everything.
Icy Vegeta's 4th point: Ground does nothing to Zapdos

Actually, a Ground-typing takes Zapdos' strongest attack out of play. Now it has to use Hidden Power. But that's not the strongest of moves and not STAB, so if CaP is specially defensive then it can take those and reply with a coverage move (or its second STAB, if appropriate).

Eh, but Zapdos can switch into an EQ and do whatever it feels like.

Icy Vegeta's 5th point: Colossoil might as well do the same thing

"Let's make a Ground pokemon" does not mean "let's recreate Colossoil" any more than "let's make an Electric pokemon" means "let's recreate Jolteon." Colossoil was not targeted at Togekiss at all... this point is silly.

I'm not going to disagree on this point.

Icy Vegeta's 6th point: The only good things about Ground are resistances to Electric and Rock

But Electric has so much more useful switch in opportunities to beat Starmie and Zapdos one on one.

Well... pretty much, yeah, they're the best things, because those are two of Togekiss' three resistances. A resistance to Rock is really very helpful, because Stealth Rock is everywhere these days. But it also means that CaP could be a primarily special attacker (to receive Nasty Plot) and still have a viable EQ option thanks to STAB. That's a great move right there. And all its weaknesses are to special attacks, which Togekiss is good at taking. Surely, given this the first thing we're deciding about our CaP, that's a pretty good start?



Aura Sphere is on almost all its main sets. Shadow Ball and Ancient Power aren't.
 
Actually, Ground pokemon are one of the best counters against Rotom. They switch in fearlessly on its Charge Beam or Thunderbolt, and then use a coverage move to take it out. Gengar is a problem to every team, but if CaP is specially defensive, then it should be able to take a neutral hit and 2HKO with a coverage move.
And what about all the Rotoms that carry Leaf Storm/Hydro Pump/Blizzard? If it's a special attacker, a Fighting type can be given tools to deal with Zapdps and Rotom without having any exploitable weaknesses to attacks seen on those two.
 
Icy Vegeta, Syclant is not a threat. As far as CaP is concerned, it doesn't even exist.

Weaville and Mamoswine were ranked #33 and #42 in usage last month - even less than Togekiss. And yes, I stand by my statement that Togekiss can take their ice attacks. Here's what our analysis has to say about its most common set:

Smogon Analysis said:
It can survive a Choice Banded Ice Shard from a max Attack Mamoswine even after Stealth Rock is down and OHKO back with a Nasty Plotted Aura Sphere.
So, no need to take an insulting tone when I claim that we have bigger priorities, like the Rock weakness.

As for mentioning a coverage move - everybody here expects our CaP to be able to recieve Nasty Plot. That means it will be a special attacker, which in turn means it will have at least one attack on its sets which isn't Ground. I don't know what type that will be yet, but it will probably be chosen to hit the likes of Gengar, Rotom and Zapdos for neutral damage. That's what I called the 'coverage' move, and it may even have STAB from CaP's secondary typing.

That's why it would win the duel with Zapdos. Zapdos' thunderbolts are useless, CaP11's Earthquakes are useless, but CaP11's secondary attack would be a (possibly STAB) special attack with at least neutral coverage against Zappy, so it would have an excellent chance of 2HKOing after Stealth Rock.

Hopefully that convinces you that I wasn't just making statements up - you asked for a reply to your post and I gave you one which was considered, and grounded in fact. I'm not calling you a n00b, in fact I said I think Electric is a good type as well back on the front page. But you asked for a response to your bolded FACTS, and I gave you one.
 

FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
@Aqueos

It was just an example. Call it HP Ice or Rock or whatever want.

@Smallvizer

So what? Aura Sphere is certainly more commonly used, but that has very little to do with the fact that Togekiss is fully capable of beating "problem pokemon" like Zapdos and Rotom with the right moves, so our thought process should not be "togekiss commonly runs these moves AND NO OTHER so we can't pair it with a Pokemon that uses those moves to much better effect due to STAB".

I'd like to further reemphasize that a part-Fighting Pokemon does not necessarily have to have trouble dealing with Zapdos or Rotom. X-Act made a really good post about this a few pages back, and I encourage everyone to go read it.
 
I voted for Ground as the main typing as it provides both a Stealth Rock resistance and an electric immunity. I would also recommend water as the secondary typing to provide neutrality to ice and reducing its weakness to only grass, which is easily covered by Togekiss. However, this typing makes me think of Swampert, and I would prefer not to create a secondary swampert...
 
Icy Vegeta, Syclant is not a threat. As far as CaP is concerned, it doesn't even exist.

Weaville and Mamoswine were ranked #33 and #42 in usage last month - even less than Togekiss. And yes, I stand by my statement that Togekiss can take their ice attacks. Here's what our analysis has to say about its most common set:



So, no need to take an insulting tone when I claim that we have bigger priorities, like the Rock weakness.

As for mentioning a coverage move - everybody here expects our CaP to be able to recieve Nasty Plot. That means it will be a special attacker, which in turn means it will have at least one attack on its sets which isn't Ground. I don't know what type that will be yet, but it will probably be chosen to hit the likes of Gengar, Rotom and Zapdos for neutral damage. That's what I called the 'coverage' move, and it may even have STAB from CaP's secondary typing.

That's why it would win the duel with Zapdos. Zapdos' thunderbolts are useless, CaP11's Earthquakes are useless, but CaP11's secondary attack would be a (possibly STAB) special attack with at least neutral coverage against Zappy, so it would have an excellent chance of 2HKOing after Stealth Rock.

Hopefully that convinces you that I wasn't just making statements up - you asked for a reply to your post and I gave you one which was considered, and grounded in fact. I'm not calling you a n00b, in fact I said I think Electric is a good type as well back on the front page. But you asked for a response to your bolded FACTS, and I gave you one.
Sorry, I'm just defending reasoning here. I've been around CAP long enough to see how this going to turn out as a project if we decide to make him Ground. I am not trying to insult, or degrade anybody or their viewpoints. From what you are saying, the moveset IF it were Ground would be:

~Ground STAB
~Nasty Plot
~Secondary STAB
~????

So in actuality, we'd be making another sweeper here? So we would make a boosting attacker with an Ice/Starmie/Rotom weakness?
 
Oh, sorry - I've actually given the wrong impression about the moves I was expecting. I thought the Nasty Plot would come from Togekiss (it does run it quite often after all). I was thinking more like

- Ground STAB
- Secondary STAB (Special)
- ???, perhaps a second special attack on some sets
- ???, perhaps a dry baton pass or thunder wave to help slow pokemon down

I've really got no idea what would go in the third and fourth slots, but I certainly don't mean it to know Nasty Plot! After all, if it did then we'd have one less reason to pair it with Togekiss. If it was going to know a boosting move, then something which boosted speed (1 stage) or special defense would be more useful, because then it could pass those to Togekiss and they could form a chain. But now I'm digressing... and I haven't thought that through yet.
 
To take on these counters we only have VERY few secondary options to give it if indeed it is Ground.

Ghost: Takes out Rotom, Gengar, and Starmie, however cannot switch into any of them.
Dark: Weak to fighting, but can take on Gengar/Rotom.

Electric gives us many more options to explore with secondary typing.

But, seeing how far it is behind, I guess the community has made their decision sadly.
 
Ground works better defensively and has perfect offensive coverage with Togekiss's Flying. I don't understand this.
 
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