There were one or two posts disagreeing, but the vast majority in the thread seems to prefer "holding mega stone = mega" and "megas can't fall below non-mega in tiering".but did we settle on Antar's original concerns in the OP?
I might have missed it but we still need the definitive answer to his second concern (how are we counting it; intent is king or not) and his third concern (non mega usage higher than mega)
Is how I feel.prefer A, fine with B if we think November is too soon
but also D
I'm good with that.There were one or two posts disagreeing, but the vast majority in the thread seems to prefer "holding mega stone = mega" and "megas can't fall below non-mega in tiering".
I guess if you have a strong opinion otherwise, we can talk about it, but since there's a clear majority in the that direction, it might be hard to push through anything else.
What does us tiering them seperately have to do with the usage cut off though? The tiers are "threat lists" where a threat is defined as something you have a 50% chance to see if you play 20 games (iirc, Antar can correct me if I'm wrong), this doesn't change whether or not something is a mega. We also don't have a seperate cutoff for Rotom formes even though I can only put one of 6 on my team.Since we are doing "mega=pokemon with mega stone", there's something I'd like to bring up. Since Megas are constricted to one per team, I don't think it's ideal to hold megas to the same tiering standards as non-mega Pokemon. Whether it is tiering Megas by total % of all Megas or just holding them to a lower cutoff percentage, I don't think Megas should use 3.41% as a cutoff.
So teambuilding rules are irrelevant--the only thing that matters is: are you likely to see that Pokemon in 20 battles?What does OU mean?
One of the grandest and most controversial questions we have in this community is what our tier list represents. Is an OU Pokemon more powerful than one in a lower tier? Is Gastrodon a "better" Pokemon than Victini or Zapdos?
My personal answer to this question is no: our tiers do not do a good job of ranking a Pokemon's "power." So if a UU Pokemon isn't inherently better than one in RU, what's the point of tiers?
Again, this is a controversial subject, but my answer is that OU means what it stands for, that these Pokemon are simply "overused," and that the primary function of tiers is as threat lists. To elaborate, I'm going to point you folks to the original defining of our current OU-UU cutoff: in short, a Pokemon is OU if, in playing 20 battles, there's at least a 50% chance of you encountering that Pokemon at least once. This is an acknowledgement of the fact that there are 649 Pokemon out there--if you're designing a team of six Pokemon, it's unlikely that you're going to be able to make sure that your team has a way of dealing with each and every Pokemon out there. But if you're making an OU team, you probably will never have to worry if your team gets completely wrecked by Leavanny, since it doesn't even appear on one team in a thousand. What the OU/UU cutoff literally says is: "if said Pokemon is UU or below, you still have a good shot of going 20-0 even if your team is super weak to that Pokemon."
I don't think we are doing that? That's why Zarel is putting in the "OU by technicality" section on the team builder, to indicate a Pokemon should be in UU, but is unable to due to the mechanics of mega evolution (ie mega slowbro, because slowbro is OU). When this change is actually implemented this section would only include megas, and would be seperate from BL if I understand correctly.Antar, are we not already breaking this by forbidding Megas to be in a lower tier than their base forms? Where will those Megas be tiered?
This isn't actually the case, though. It's unable to be used in UU because of a choice that was made that a Mega Pokemon cannot be tiered lower than it's base form. However, we also defined that a base form + Mega Stone is an entirely different Pokemon. So, if we are going to impose the second condition, the first condition is contradictory. I know they both independently "make sense", but together they don't work and they are both vital to the proper execution of this new tiering system.I don't think we are doing that? That's why Zarel is putting in the "OU by technicality" section on the team builder, to indicate a Pokemon should be in UU, but is unable to due to the mechanics of mega evolution (ie mega slowbro, because slowbro is OU). When this change is actually implemented this section would only include megas, and would be seperate from BL if I understand correctly.
That's a good point, I guess I initially assumed it would work by tiering the mega stone as if it were a Pokemon. So, for example, Garchompite would be UU by usage, but mega Garchomp will not be usable as Garchomp is OU. Which would address the issue of "what tier are the megas in if below the base form", and also renders the "OU by technicality" section in the team builder unnecessary (which is why waiting for this idea to be more thoroughly panned out before changing it would have been better, but I digress). As for the fact that Pokemon can abuse their base forms seperate typing, the thought was that the mega stone showed clear intent to become the mega. Sure, Charizard can remain in its normal form to get up a DD against EQ locked Lando-t, but it is more than likely going to mega evolve at some point. Basing usage based on turn percentage doesn't really work out for reasons like sacking, where a "mega" ( and the base) spend a total of 0 turns on the field (other mobs w/ 0 turns still get counted in stats), so intent is really the only good thing to go off of. And like 90% of the time you will mega Evo turn 1 anyways.This isn't actually the case, though. It's unable to be used in UU because of a choice that was made that a Mega Pokemon cannot be tiered lower than it's base form. However, we also defined that a base form + Mega Stone is an entirely different Pokemon. So, if we are going to impose the second condition, the first condition is contradictory. I know they both independently "make sense", but together they don't work and they are both vital to the proper execution of this new tiering system.
I probably should have spoken up about this sooner, but I really don't think that we discussed the 'how' enough. Personally, I believe that counting base form + Mega Stone as an entirely different Pokemon is a flawed concept. There are different situations in which a Mega Pokemon will stay in it's base form for multiple turns before Mega Evolving:
Mega Charizard-X, Mega Gyarados, Mega Altaria: Can stay in their base form in order to utilize the base form's resistances
Mega Alakazam, Mega Gardevoir Mega Gyarados, Mega Heracross, Mega Pinsir, Mega Manectric, Mega Altaria, Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro, Mega Sharpedo: Can stay in their base form in order to utilize the base form's ability
Mega Garchomp, Mega Diancie: Can stay in base form to utilize base form's stats (higher Speed for Garchomp, higher defenses for Diancie)
That's just a list of all of the OU-relevant Pokemon, too. I don't see how it can be said with confidence and sincerity that "base form + Mega Stone=New Pokemon" when the base form plays such an important role for many of the Mega Pokemon. The very fact that we cannot consistently apply this rule to the proposed system shows the inherent flaws.
We just had multiple pages of a thread explaining what that section is for...... I thought you understood...Which would address the issue of "what tier are the megas in if below the base form", and also renders the "OU by technicality" section in the team builder unnecessary (which is why waiting for this idea to be more thoroughly panned out before changing it would have been better, but I digress).
The point is I have over 50% chance of encounter Garchomp every 20 OU battles regardless if he's holding a Mega Stone, a Life Orb, a Rocky Helmet. Why should I consider Mega Garchomp as a totally different pokémon, while the Mega Evolution is just a temporary "mutation" and its form, even though it has different stats, ability and even types, it's just the consequence of a Garchomp (holding a mega stone) whose trainer decided to megaevolve? A pokémon holding a mega stone can stay in its normal form for the entire match. How can I count it, as regular or mega? In certain case (Charizard, Mewtwo) I can't even guess if it's X or Y.We just had multiple pages of a thread explaining what that section is for...... I thought you
One last time: That section is to convey the idea that while Mega Garchomp might be OU, you do not have over 50% chance of encountering it every 20 OU battles.
Regular Charizard, Altaria, and Lopunny are still OU, and the teambuilder still says they're OU. Are you misinterpreting something, or am I?The idea isn't that bad, and it would be helpful to try to put some freshness in lower tiers who can expect stuff like regular Charizard, Altaria, Lopunny..
I believe he's talking about when (if) the change happens, not now.Regular Charizard, Altaria, and Lopunny are still OU, and the teambuilder still says they're OU. Are you misinterpreting something, or am I?
I guess that's possible, but it's confusing because he's replying to a comment about a past teambuilder UI change.I believe he's talking about when (if) the change happens, not now.
...but the post you replied to explained why it wasn't. Is it still unclear?I was talking about the whole idea yeah sorry for being unclear
The teambuilder UI change doesn't really affect tiering with parenthesis applied, but it might be a pointless change in the case this proposal won't be applied and everything remains unchanged
You weren't unclear man, I just disagree..is that hard accepting that many users can think differently? I just prefer things in the current state (or better, before the change). Obviously if majority of people like this (or just find it useful at least), who am I to say anything? I just said my opinion, I'm fine as I said in my first post here....but the post you replied to explained why it wasn't. Is it still unclear?
I give up. Plenty of people find it really useful right now, and has nothing to do with any planned changes to tiering. Just trust me that it's useful, okay?