Stall in NU - CCAT

Stall is one of the many playstyles in Pokemon. It is commonly seen in many tiers; however, in NU, for some reason it's not very common at all.

Why is it not very common? Well, 1) there are a ton of powerful offensive behemoths such as Charizard, Sawsbuck, and Braviary that you have to try and wall. 2) There is a noticeable lack of clerics, hazard setters, rapid spin users, and Ghost-types in NU.

Despite these problems, I think that stall could be successful in NU; it just hasn't been explored much at all.

How will we go about "exploring" stall? Through various steps that will eventually lead us to making a team!


Step 1: Discuss about why stall is good in NU; why it should be used over other playstyles. Talk about good Pokemon for stall teams as well.

Step 2: Determine what a stall team needs to be successful in NU; determine what a stall team would like that would help its success.

Step 3: Identify threats to stall teams and Pokemon that can check/counter those threats.

Step 4: Identify other problems that stall teams have and come up with ways to fix those problems.

Step 5: Discuss about how we should go about making the team.

After that, we will start making the team. The steps that we will go about for the teambuilding process will be made later.

Alright, we've discussed enough - let's make the team!

We will begin by nominating a single Pokemon. This single Pokemon should attempt to cover as much as possible for the stall team. You have 2 days to nominate Pokemon then we will vote. Each person can nominate up to 2 Pokemon.

The only way I can see stall succeeding in NU this round is through clever use Toxic. Toxic spikes are unreliable with Skuntank, Vileplume, Amoonguss around.. And many of the big offensive threats(think Braviary) are immune to them anyways. So a possible team built around Toxic + Protect to stall out the offensive behemoths is the best way to go about it this meta in my opinion. I could be completely wrong and an amazing stall team could me made tomorrow but as I see it there are to many extremely powerful pokemon to check this meta. And the easiest ways to stop one are pure fodder for another.

I believe the main issue with stall in NU is this right here. Out of those, the one that I would probably consider the best is Garbodor... which says something.

Aside from that, however, there's really no reason not to use stall in NU (aside from it being a generally shitty boring playstyle!!). Between Cryogonal for spinning, Audino, Miltank and Altaria for Heal Bell (Altaria counters Emboar and Zard!!), Misdreavus for spin-blocking, and Tangela for the "lol nice Attack stat" factor, there's really no lack of good support mons.

Flareon is a cool Wish passer, too.

Toxic Spikes, while not as easy to come by in NU than in other tiers, are one of the major forms of damage in a Stall-based offense. Toxic has been one of the most effective forms of damage for stall since Gen I (ok, there wasn't any stall in Gen I, sorry) and Toxic Spikes allow you to inflict Toxic on any Pokemon that is switched in after they have been set. Again, we don't have many T-Spikers in NU, but here are a few:

Garbodor


Garbodor is probably one of Stall's best friends in NU, not to mention a very capable dual-spiker. He has decent bulk as well as access to Clear Smog, which removes any stat boosts that the opposing Pokemon has managed to build up. Being a Poison-type he can also remove any Toxic Spikes that could essentially eat your own walls alive. His ability to wall anything is fairly pitiful though, even with decent defensive investment.

Whirlipede


I personally haven't used Whirlipede very much, but it does have much better bulk than Garbodor, as well as the ability to absorb T-Spikes while dual-spiking himself. His offensive abilities are much worse than Garbodor's however, and even with his good bulk he still isn't going to take many strong hits. I don't see this bro around much, and there's probably good reason why.

Tentacool


Tentacool is another popular T-Spiker, viable due to his great Special Defense as well as his ability to Rapid Spin (although he also just absorbs T-Spikes). Tentacool doesn't have the best Defense stat though, and isn't hard to kill at all.

If you couldn't tell already, NONE of these guys should actually be trying to wall things for you in a stall team; rather, they set out the poison that slowly destroys your opponent while your bulky Pokemon (Alomomola, Tangela, Lickilicky, etc.) sit back and Wish + Protect, SubRoost, or whatever else you feel like doing to make your opponent hate you. All three make great additions to any stall team, and might even seem like a necessity if you plan on running NU stall effectively.

My problem with stall as a general playstyle is the fact that there are so many hard hitters - Braviary requires you to run a bulky Rock-Type, Emboar basically makes Alomomola, or to a lesser degree Shelgon, a necessity (because Altaria is OHKO'd by any Rock Move) and Sawk is just as dangerous. Between the three of them half your team is used up while you still need Spikes, Rapid Spin, checks for Special threats, etc.

Of course, maybe there's a combination of Pokemon that can actually accomplish that - if it does then Stall might be a very powerful playstyle in the NU metagame, since otherwise many games come down to prediction wars between two NU offensive teams which can go either way and thus aren't very consistent. Stall would have the advantage of having a better win rate.

Also, Garbodor is surprisingly underrated; it can actually take a lot of abuse if you want it to. Alomomola might actually be good on this because being huge setup bait won't be as bad with other walls to back it up. I'm very curious how this will turn out though.

Seeing as a lot more of the offensive threats in NU are physically based, you could do a burn team that can control the threats of special attackers as well. On top of this you could do some Phazing as well probably. Misdreavus would work well on this type of team, as it can Spinblock and burn.

You might also be able to have double clerics with a load of stuff with rest, because then they can rest and just be healed, giving almost immediate recovery. That might not really work very welll though, seeing as it could be easily manipulated by the opponent.

The problem with a burn team is that Charizard and Magmortar, two of the harder hitters around, are immune to it. Rapidash will also happily soak it up for a Flash Fire boost.

Nevertheless, Gardevoir would be a decent Poke on a stall team, with solid defenses on the special side and being capable of spreading status or dual screens.

Between walling Braviary (lol ok), Emboar, Sawk and Jynx stall is really hard pressed to fit everything it wants on to one team. Considering you are almost required to run Garbador or similar, as well as a ghost type, the number of teamslots rapidly decreases. Not to mention one mispredict can easily lead to losing a wall and thus potentially the match.

Despite this, stall still has potential. No Rapid Spin user is getting past Misdreavus reliably, expecially if it Heal Bell or something support. This alone makes stall attractive, as you are almost guaranteed to keep your hazards up. Secondly, the metagame has been tending towards really hyper offensive teams recently, and matches between players often end up being decided by who gets momentum from the lead match up. Running stall means you can actually play around threats as opposed to needing to sacrifice or let something be crippled to beat say, Emboar.

There are definitely a few necessities on a stall team. Spin blocking is the main one, and Misdreavus is the best option a stall team has of doing it .A Flash Fire user or something to reliably beat Charizard such as Flareon can really do wonders. High powered Fighting moves are everywhere, so something like Shelgon or even dare I say it Alomomola can be incredibly helpful.

I am intrigued by building the team without Spikes / T-Spikes since as Raseri said, Poison types are everywhere. This would free up teamslots, (as well as not forcing you to run Misdreavus) and give you more room to fit in counters to common threats. Anyone else think this could work?

I'm going to be the pessimist and say that full stall is impossible in NU. Not only are there ridiculous Choice users and sweepers in the tier but there are plenty of stall breakers too that just aren't used very often. The biggest problem is the lack of reliable phazers imo. There's Shelgon and there's Altaria and not a lot else. Once NP Jynx has a go at a stall team it can get really ugly really quickly, not to mention SubSD Licki which is pretty much a 100% death sentence to full stall if paired with a TSpikes absorber.

The only way I can see stall working is with a 4-5 member semi-stall setting down hazards and wearing down the opposing team while sacrificing themselves one by one until the last 1 or 2 sweepers can tear through the opposing team.

Full stall may surprise a few people but I don't see it having any sort of longevity. I desperately hope this thread can prove me wrong!

When you're trying to stall in the tier of NU,
You'll need a few walls... well, more than a few.
You'll need lots of HP, and defense of both kinds,
And with some recovery, you'll do just fine.

Ok, here's some bulky Pokemon for your stalling fun:

Luvdisc


Alomomola is one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier, and is a common defensive wall present in both stall and balanced teams. She has a massive HP stat which allows her to distribute ridiculous wishes to your other team members, and she laughs at any physical attacker stupid enough to try and break through her. She can also use the much-hated Wish+Protect combination in tandem with Toxic, allowing her to sit back and watch anything that isn't a Poison or Steel type disintegrate.

A problem that Momfish has is dealing with her base 45 SpDef, which is very exploitable and can lead to her getting OHKO'd or 2HKO'd before you know what's going on. Obviously, you'll need a Special wall that can handle the Pokemon that Alomomola cannot. Although somewhat gimmicky, you can use Mirror Coat to surprise an opponent's Special Attacker, which would lead to an easy OHKO if enough damage is done (she does have over 500 HP), although Alomomola will have trouble finding room for this move.

Lickilicky


Lickilicky is a popular special wall, although his defenses are both base 95. He is another abuser of the Wish+Protect combination, and also has access to Heal Bell and Dragon Tail, allowing him to keep your own Pokemon status free as well as phaze the opponent's team, possibly racking up entry hazard damage as well as removing pesky stat-boosters.

Lickilicky is harassed by both Fighting Pokemon and anything bulky with Substitute, which can be somewhat of a problem. Amoonguss makes a great partner to Lickilicky, as it puts a full stop to every Fighting Pokemon save Emboar in the entire tier. Speaking of Amoonguss...

Amoonguss


Amoonguss is one bulky mushroom, with solid bulk and a few key resistances. Fighting Pokemon dread battling Amoonguss, as all of their moves will do little damage to him as well as possibly activating EFFECT SPORE. Boosters like Gurdurr are also stopped cold by Clear Smog, nullifying any stat boosts the opposing Pokemon has managed to set up.

Amoonguss's real claim to fame is that it is the only viable user of Spore in NU, allowing it to put anything it wants to sleep. All those pesky Pokemon that you can't inflict Toxic on are now in dream land. He also has access to Synthesis if you need that extra recovery.

Tangela


Tangela is quite possibly the best physical wall in NU. With Eviolite boosting her Defense to obscene levels, Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Giga Drain, the ability Regenerator, and resistances to common attacking types, Tangela is a very solid defensive wall. Seriously, it is really hard for this thing to die.

Like Alomomola, Tangela's SpDef is poor, and she won't be taking too many hits (or any at all) on the special side. Of course, this just means you need to switch to your special wall, which will also heal Tangela with Regenerator.

Articuno


Ok, so why am I adding a Pokemon that is 4x weak to Stealth Rock in my list of walls? Simple, because this thing is extremely bulky. Toxic stalling is ridiculously easy with Articuno's SubRoost set, and she can tank most neutral hits with ease thanks to her 90 / 100 / 125 defenses. But wait, there's more: She can also phaze anything with Roar, double the opponent's PP usage with Pressure, remove stat boosts with Haze, and heal your entire team of status with Heal bell.

All's not awesome for Articuno though; Rock Blast usually takes her out no matter what, and Stealth Rock is everywhere. However, if you keep the Rock Pokemon out of the way, Articuno is one of the best walls you can find.

A few things to mention:

1. We have plenty of walls (I didn't even mention half of them).
2. Walls are very vulnerable to Taunt.
3. Team synergy is extremely important when deciding which walls you're going to use.
4. A Rapid Spinner, while not completely necessary, does help.
5. This was a long fucking post, and I'm sorry for making you read all of it.

Also, I do agree with most of you guys who are saying that it is extremely hard to run stall effectively in NU. The number of offensive powerhouses definitely outnumber the walls, and it takes a lot of patience to battle with stall. It's very possible though, especially if we have some of the best members of NU working together on this.

EDIT: Hey Axa, Articuno.

I think any Stall team needs to have a way to deal with Vileplume as well. The rafflesia absorbs Toxic Spikes on impact, laughs off Scalds, has Aromatherapy to cleanse its team and Synthesis/Moonlight for recovery, and Effect Spore can end up irritating Lickillicky. Its STABs also make short work of Alomomola and Tangela.

Cryogonal and Flareon seem to be the best way of handling it, though neither will like being poisoned if Vileplume gets lucky.

Quagsire is very useful for stall teams with its Unaware ability. With it, it can beat most set-up sweepers. Unfortunately, it's not as good as it used to be thanks to Sawsbuck and Ludicolo moving down, but it's still pretty good.

Sawsbuck is best checked by Poison-types (although even most of those are OHKO'd by Life Orb Double-Edge).

Speaking of Poison-types, they are very useful on stall teams for soaking up Toxic Spikes. Amoonguss has Spore and amazing bulk. Vileplume has decent bulk, Aromatherapy, Leech Seed and a surprisingly high Special Attack stat. Golbat has the best overall bulk and also useful moves such as Roost, Taunt, and Super Fang, but doesn't absorb Toxic Spikes and doesn't really support the team in any way. Weezing is another good choice and has useful moves such as Will-O-Wisp and Clear Smog. Tentacool is another interesting option -- it has great special bulk, Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, and an awesome dual typing -- however it isn't very powerful at all and doesn't do well against the spinblockers.

Speaking of spinners, that's a good way of keeping hazards off the field. How do you keep hazards off the field on a stall team? Offensive teams try to keep offensive pressure by trying to keep SR off the field with something like CB Rampardos, Bonmerang Marowak, or CB Pinsir. They could also punish the Pokemon who are setting up Stealth Rock by setting up ON them at the same time. Life Orb Cryogonal is another good option. However, on defensive teams, what do you do?

Of course there's the obvious Rapid Spin user in Cryogonal, but could other options be usable? Personally I liked Armaldo as a spinner; its bulky, can also set-up SR, and also does really good against threats such as Swords Dance Sawsbuck itself! Torkoal could also be an /ok/ option, but its typing isn't very good for spinning, it has many common weaknesses, it's not that powerful, and it has various other faults. At least it can set-up SR! Staryu is another option I'm considering, but it's frail even with Eviolie which sucks.

NU is quite a strange tier when it comes to hazards: the spinners suck and the hazard setters suck. (Other than SR. Also, they don't really suck, but each of them have various faults and there isn't a big quantity of them.)

Perhaps something such as Magic Bounce Natu could work? It's not that bulky, and it's weak to various types, including Rock, but it's quite an interesting option. It's also good for reflecting back status moves, and someone who's going to set-up Spikes on you is going to be very careful if Natu is still alive. They don't want Spikes reflected back to them, after all.

Keep up the good posts. This is an interesting discussion so far.

I've tried sp. defensive & offensive Cryo and i can say that the offensive one is the best.
He's fast, can spin very easily and can decimate opponent spin blocker pretty well. Ice Beam & HP Groud have good coverage and he can tank some special hits even without defensive investiments. Recover is the move that do the difference, since he's (i think) the only spinner that can recover up damage.

Stall seems nearly impossible after tier changes, seeing as how Specs Solar Power Charizard is able to 2HKO just about anything in NU - Cloud Nine Altaria being one of the very, VERY few pokes able to switch in fairly safely (beware of HP Ice), but lacking a reliable recovery move (Roost + Cloud Nine is illegal).

I definitely was a fan of semi-stall before 'Zard moved down though. Cacturne should be mentioned as a Spiker as well btw; powerful priority, a unique typing and Encore (!) set him apart from the others.

252/252 +ve Magcargo can actually switch in on anything except Focus Blast or Solarbeam that comes from Specszard, then take Charizard out with HP Rock/Stone Edge or stall it out with Recover.

Well, I feel that most of NU stall's might comes from toxic spikes. SR + Tspikes hit almost everything really hard enough: think Charizard, Magmortar, Braviary, alongside Ludi, Buck, Jynx, among others. It still remains that the top offensive suspects are extremely prone to them--it's still the same.

That being said, tspike stalling is a really unreliable playstyle, because it banks on the opponent to not have a Poison-type! It's incredibly hard to play against an opponent that has a Poison-type of their own if you completely rely on Toxic Spikes. I guess Garbodor is OK on its own for those Grass-Poison types, but Skuntank really poops over the Ghost + Tspikes combination, which sucks. Not to mention, spinning away opposing hazards is nearly impossible if they have a blocker, too...

(Well, Skuntank helps with your own spinning + weakening opposing poison-types with Taunt + Pursuit stuff, i guess, but Skuntank can't hit opposing Skuntank very well, either.)

Stall needs to find a good Poison killer to be more viable, what you guys thinks is the best mon for this role ?
Cryo, seems to hit pretty hard with his offensive set (HP Ground+LO), i usually destroy opponent's poison type with Cryo HP Ground and Golem's Earthquake. For that defensive poison/grass wall like Vileplume and Amoongus i have Ice beam users, but they are really annoying in every case.

Gardevoir is a decent choice to get past Poison-types, only failing to really muscle past Skuntank. Musharna is another option due to its bulk, but it's also incredibly slow and needs help to get over status. Rain teams also end up screwing with its recovery.

I'm surprised stall isn't more pre-eminent in NU. We have a massive problem with viable spinners down here that should lend itself easily to a more stall orientated metagame.

The best conventional spinners in the tier (Cryo, Armaldo and Torkoal) are all weak to Stealth Rock meaning they risk being beaten just by repeatedly switching in if the opponent is persistent enough in getting hazzards down.

On top of that one of the most infuriating Pokemon in the tier just also happens to be the best spin blocker around (I am referring to Missy, ofc). We also have access to the likes of Eviolite Yamask and Duskull. Granted, neither are as good as missy, but both are conceivably bulkier if you really need it.

On top of that we've a huge amount of shufflers like the Pink blobs (Curse/Dragon Tail Lickilicky comes to mind) that can really stop certain threats dead and slow down their momentum.

elchupo said:

On top of that we've a huge amount of shufflers like the Pink blobs (Curse/Dragon Tail Lickilicky comes to mind) that can really stop certain threats dead and slow down their momentum.

Click to expand...

Don't forget Bulk Up + Circle Throw Throh (!), or even Coil + Dragon Tail Arbok

I definitely feel like Cryogonal is the superior spinner though, seeing as how it's the fastest and has the best chance of beating Misdreavus 1-on-1. Eviolite Lampent is actually another very underrated spinblocker - being able to wall Magmortar completely, switch into Specs 'Zard somewhat safely (watch out for Air Slash after taking SR damage), and function well against sun teams in general.

Shelgon (M) @ Eviolite
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature (+Def, -SpAtk)
- Toxic
- Wish
- Protect
- Dragon Claw

This is the stall/defensive set I use on my team, and it works damn well. With Eviolite, Shellgon's defenses reach 492, which allows it to tank many hits, especially in combination with Wish + Protect. The Dragon typing also brings with it many resistances. Try it out, and you will not be disappointed.

Oh, and while some people are trying to bring more attention to other Lampent and other spinblockers, I'll try to hype Frillish:

Frillish's typing is perfect for spinblocking against Cryogonal, the most common spinner, not to mention it doesn't actually lose vs. Wartortle, Armaldo, and other spinners that Lampent just flat-out loses to. (Armaldo assuming you don't get unlucky with W-o-W, but that's gonna happen eventually.) Recover is the redeeming factor over Misdreavus, who gets worn down and requires consistent Wish support. Taunt + Toxic is also great for wearing down opposing stallish mons, especially Quagsire + Cryogonal by denying their recovery but still keeping yours. Cryo can still be faster and Toxic you, but you Toxic + Taunt, denying Recover and forcing it to switch out toxiced and at low health with SR not spinned away. You'll need some smart switches to reset your toxic count, but you have a great chance of winning. It can also tank Charizard pretty well (but still beware of specs in sun lol)

We will now be moving on to Step 2.

Determine what a stall team needs to be successful in NU; determine what a stall team would like that would help its success.

Some things that come to mind that really help NU stall teams are hazards (of course), rapid spin users, clerics, tspikes absorbers, and choice scarf users. Some of these are needed; some of these are only helpful. What do you guys think? What Pokemon can fit these roles well? What other things are useful for stall teams in NU?

I believe both of my posts somewhat discussed both of the first points; we need Toxic Spikes and we need some walls. Clerics, spinners, and T-Spikes absorbers are all nice as well, but I don't think a full stall team is going to be using a Choice Scarf Pokemon (however, I we don't necessarily have to run a full stall team).

I've already mentioned that Lickilicky and Amoonguss work pretty good together, and I think they'd be a great pair in a stall team. Lickilicky is a decent cleric as well as special wall, and can also phaze things without substitute if he's got Dragon Tail. Amoonguss covers Lickilicky's only weakness and is also a potent physical wall; furthermore, he's got Spore. A stall team would love a pair of walls that can cover each other's weaknesses that can also phaze, status, status heal, and stop boosting Pokemon.

Also, who wouldn't smile when telling others that they run a Lickimoonguss core?

From my experience so far I think stall in NU can be more successful if you forget synergy altogether and just concentrate on finding a hard counter to the most powerful Pokemon in the tier. If you have something to always be able to take on Jynx, Magmortar, Absol etc then your team will likely be pretty solid and do decently on the ladder. Thinking in terms of 'counters' instead of walls also allows you to use stuff like RestTalkDDShelgon which is an amazingly elegant set and gives your 'stall' team much needed offensive threat. Having a reliable win condition like Perish Song Altaria also helps massively against stuff like Duosion. Altaria also counters Magmortar pretty well (you just have to double switch to check for HP Ice) so that's another 'counter' and another member of the team.

If a stall team is built this way then hazards aren't necessarily even needed because you try to play with a team full of hard counters that beats the most powerful threats anyway. Not that you don't carry any hazards but if it's not a requirement for defeating the top threats then that eases pressure on you having to set up and give away free turns. In a way it's kind of an offensive stall lol but I've played against teams like this and been thinking about the different ways to use stall and it gives me plenty of hope for this playstyle in NU.