Stall in NU - CCAT

[marilli]

From my experience so far I think stall in NU can be more successful if you forget synergy altogether and just concentrate on finding a hard counter to the most powerful Pokemon in the tier. If you have something to always be able to take on Jynx, Magmortar, Absol etc then your team will likely be pretty solid and do decently on the ladder. Thinking in terms of 'counters' instead of walls also allows you to use stuff like RestTalkDDShelgon which is an amazingly elegant set and gives your 'stall' team much needed offensive threat. Having a reliable win condition like Perish Song Altaria also helps massively against stuff like Duosion. Altaria also counters Magmortar pretty well (you just have to double switch to check for HP Ice) so that's another 'counter' and another member of the team.

If a stall team is built this way then hazards aren't necessarily even needed because you try to play with a team full of hard counters that beats the most powerful threats anyway. Not that you don't carry any hazards but if it's not a requirement for defeating the top threats then that eases pressure on you having to set up and give away free turns. In a way it's kind of an offensive stall lol but I've played against teams like this and been thinking about the different ways to use stall and it gives me plenty of hope for this playstyle in NU.

Well, even if you try to counter ALL the threats, it's something kind of hard to do.... I guess not really hard, but you will be weak to a relatively underused threat, let it be Special 3 attacks + Taunt Samurott or Mixed Absol or something (of course, on a sliding scale of viability and gimmickiness) I find that Toxic spikes are still the soul of NU stall as it's something really really helpful in limiting your loss to 1 or at worst 2 mons (hopefully not something you still need) if you happen to run into a set you have only 1 shaky counter to because you were too busy countering Jynx, Magmortar, and Ludicolo.

Also, I thought that it's kind of obvious that pure typing 'synergy' in terms of resisting all offensive types don't really matter that much? There will still be mons that can hit you with exceptional coverage, so stall is naturally geared to countering the threats, not the type. Kinda like how all normal types will probably hit you neutrally at worst, so you can cover it with Tangela or something, without necessarily requiring a rock-type.

I have a semi-decent stall team coming up... hopefully it's good enough to share with you all!

 

[No Luck Involved]

Yeah it's impossible to counter all threats, but it's another way to think about it. Stall is so ridiculously hard to do to any consistent level because there are so many powerful Pokemon in the tier. I just feel that just having walls is not enough because there are things like Jynx and Magmortar that have amazing coverage and need specific counters. Also a lot of walls are simply setup fodder for some huge threats in the tier. I feel the walls in the tier can only cover so much. Then there are the hazard layers and stall breaker of your own and win condition and it just gets a bit too much. If you made your whole team just full of counters then it may be a slightly different way of doing things. There could be a balance between having sponges and having counters that could work.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

Neon Hail Mary was the definition of NU Stall back in February, able to keep Karpman in the #1 spot on the ladder for a long time before he got knocked down. I think this team does everything a stall team needs to do to be successful, and anyone wanting to make their own stall team should read it; furthermore, I think checking out some of the stuff in here can also help us form a better idea as to what we want our own stall team to look like. Much of the stuff Karpman did with this team is still being used in some way or another even now, which attests to this team's longevity and how good the strategies it employed really are.
Hazards are still just as, if not more, important now compared to how they were then. Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock primarily are a must, and Spikes would also be helpful. Of course, a bulky spin-blocker like Misdreavus or Drifblim also seems necessary to keep those hazards on the field.

I'd also like to point out something funny in that Karpman mentioned his friends claiming Jynx to be broken and wanted her banned around the time NHM was written (back in the ancient days of February). Not sure how relevant that is, and I don't want to drag this thread off topic, but I thought it was an interesting piece of information, useful or not.

Lastly, I'd like to mention that I don't expect us to just copy-paste Karpman's team, but I think using it as a reference point could help us narrow our choices for what stall really needs.

 

[shnen]

I've been working with a stall team recently, and I'd just like to say that Regice is so boss. It checks basically every special threat in conjunction with Flareon (boo Fire-types) and can live for ages with Restalk, in addition to having lovely BoltBeam. I am very impressed with Regice, although I am considering whether Cryogonal would be a better fit for my team.

Frillish is also working surprisingly well, I noticed that the original team that I had built with Misdreavus had a fairly big Samurott weakness, and instead of replacing one of the members with Quagsire as I couldn't really work out what to replace, I realised that Frillish can do a similiar job to Missy, whilst beating Samurott and having access to Recover, which is a godsend.

Lastly, I have been using Rest Garbodor and Rest Regirock (yes, I was using Regirock and Regice on the same team), and with Cleric support they basically lasted forever, and were constantly able to set up hazards and tank hits from physical attackers. Tangela / Regirock / Garbodor is a near impenetrable core for physical attackers, although some pokemon such as Pinsir and Emboar pose a big threat to it (luckily Frillish can sorta handle both :D)

The main issue I encountered was CB Emboar against players with prediction skills, although Frillish can come in on anything but Wild Charge decently so it really was just down to prediction, which is of course a crucial element to using stall anyway. Another evil Pokemon was LO 3 Attacks Jynx, however that is very easy to wear down, with potential Toxic, Spikes, Stealth Rock, and LO damage all adding up very quickly. While on paper it looks like it can beat most everything on my team, I found that I could play around it fairly easily by smart switching and Protect/hazard/status whoring.

Duosion especially is horrible as I basically have nothing for it, switching to Haze Cryogonal would probably help with this but I'm liking Regice :x So I'm asking this to you guys: what are the best counters to Duosion that fit well on a stall team?

Stall is very fun and definitely viable in NU, although it is harder to pull of than the other playstyles due to the mainly offensive nature*of NU right now and how hard it is to check everything. I very much like the idea of this thread and hope to see it come to fruition, nice idea DTC!

 

[Django]

Eh I built a stall team myself and it was completely beaten by Duosion (if they ran Psyshock). I would phaze with Flareon, but that only delayed the problem. My best answer to it was probably Stallbreaker Misdreavus, as it can prevent Calm Minds, but it still takes a lot of damage from Shadow Ball. Misdreavus also normally takes a lot of damage from spinblocking, so by the time Duosion came out nothing could stop in. In some matches I deliberately didn't set up Toxic Spikes so I could put it to Sleep, but a lot of the time this is not viable with the threats on the other team.

Basically, Duosion is a huge threat and without running Skuntank (who is a cool mon on stall, but struggles to find a spot) you will get rolled over by it a lot.

 

[Ewil]

for Duosion and others i personally use ScarfGardevoir to beat setupper and weather, trick is a god send in this situation, you only must be carefull if your opponent have prediction skill.
So trick can be a solution, since having a scarfer in your stall team can serves as a crippler and/or a cleaner.

Phaze can be another solution, but you're fucked if Duosion is your opponent's last poke.

Haze/clear smog is good, but while you're hazing, your opponent can do a lot of damage to your poke.

The last solution i think is running a powerfull dark-type like Absol or Skuntank, but like Django says, they are really hard to fit on a stall team.

Also Shedinja laught at duosion (if he's not running Shadow Ball), but i think that Shadinja's duty finish here, so he's pretty pointless

 

[marilli]

Shnen, what Frillish set are you running? I'm also using Frillish stall, and depending on your spread, you can run Taunt on it in order to stop Duosion from boosting (and Night Shade for kill, if you have that, too)

If you find last mon boosters are troublesome, Perish Song Altaria is a pretty good mon, too. It checks sun if you have trouble with that, and Perish Song is just a good stall move in general.

 

[shnen]

I'm running 252 HP / 252 Defense Bold Will-o-Wisp / Toxic / Night Shade / Recover. I could try Taunt I guess, thanks for the suggestion!

 

[AyoGabos]

I think dedicating an entire team to stall is simply too challenging to accomplish and not worth doing on account of the powerful sweepers located in the tier. This is not to say you should abandon stall components all together, however. With Murkrow and Volbeat having access to Prankster, the two of them can find valuable niches on teams, with the widespread appearance of Eviolite adding some defensive resistance on offensive teams. People worry too much about "momentum," often chastising the use wall/stall Pokemon on offensive-oriented teams, namely that use Rain or Sun. I think we should, instead of focusing on building entire stall teams, focus on pinpointing which Pokemon work as stall/wall options on offensive teams, providing a change of pace.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

So how's stall looking without having to put up with Jynx anymore? :D

 

[Full2Half]

ugh, somehow i keep seeing duel regis now, it isnt a problem cuz i run gurdurr, but its still becoming annoyingly common. Also, does it make sence that im just NOW seeing grumpig, AFTER jynx is gone?

 

[SuperHydreigon1996]

I don't know who in their right mind would use Grumpig or Hypno. Gardevoir is a better Psychic type Special Wall than both of them, but that's my opinion.
I just don't like the lack of offensive presence Hypno has or the lack of recovery Grumpig has. All I can say is you're making a huge mistake using Grumpig and Hypno as special walls. Again, just my opinion.

Now that Jynx is gone, I've been running a Stall team with Amoonguss, Lampent, Quagsire, Lickilicky, Garbodor, and Cryogonal. It irritates me how I can't find room for Stealth Rocks on this team, as it would've otherwise softened the weakness to the birds this team has. But that's a complain I have about the team. At least it covers almost any threat other than the birds. The point here is Stall really got benefited from Jynx leaving, as I was forced to run an offensive team because of her.

 

[Straw Hat]

grumpig has thick fat. it walls magmortar

 

[Stop that Dragonite]

Hypno is overall bulkier than Gardevoir in both HP and Def. However, Gardevoir has higher speed and significantly more special attack, Will-o-Wisp, and Heal Bell, and that's what really puts her over the edge. Grumpig has nothing over either of them except for a niche ability.

 

[AyoGabos]

One Poke that might work well as far as Scarfers go is Raichu. I'm on my phone, so my response is rather short, but Raichu utilizes massive special attack and speed with access to Volt Switch, allowing Raichu to come on and inflict damage and switch out into a wall-type Pokemon on the prediction of the opponent's move.

Eviolite Whirlipede is a Pokemon I would like to bring up. With access to Spiked and T-Spiked and amazing defenses thanks to Eviolite, Whirlipede acts as a great hazard layer.

 

[Stop that Dragonite]

Whirlipede does require support from a Heal Bell user for longevity. In my experience, Lickilicky, Miltank, Altaria, and Misdreavus work well. Miltank especially because it can tank fire type attacks with ease. Whirlipede works okay, but I prefer Garbodor's offensive power and better special bulk.

 

[Lady Shinki]

The only reason I used Grumpig over another psychic wall is that it has access to Whirlwind (which is kind of shocking)! Its only recovery is Rest, but on a stall team you will absolutely have cleric support, so it's not as big a problem as it seems. Here's a set I tested that does reasonably well vs. most stallbreaker pokemon like Magmortar, Emboar, etc. while also helping vs. other stall teams.

Grumpig @ Leftovers
252 HP/120 Def/136 SpDef
Calm / Thick Fat

Toxic/Taunt
Psychic
Whirlwind
Rest

Grumpig can outright wall Magmortar, Charizard, and weaker special attackers. Even without investment and its weak special attack it can still 2hko most fighting types. The EVs can be whatever, I just picked a relatively balanced spread. Toxic is always useful, and Taunt is a good option as well because Grumpig outspeeds most other walls, so it can not only Taunt opposing Duosion/Lickilicky/Audino/Tangela but it can whirlwind as they switch out. Thunder Wave is another choice if you aren't going to rely on Toxic Spikes and it's just a spikestack offensive team, since it can catch scarfers on the switch and then give your team the advantage. Obviously it was better when Jynx was around, since it could switch in to an Ice Beam and just Whirlwind on wake-up since almost no Jynx ever ran Shadow Ball, but it's still an admirable special wall that has a couple unique advantages over the others.

 

[Puffin87]

First post here, so take it easy if I seem completely retarded with regards to the tier.

It seems odd that no one mentioned Parasect. He seems, while not stellarly bulky, a rather useful mon if worked right. I used him to stellar effectiveness on my rain/stall team the other night. I liked Ayo's suggestion of kind of focusing on stall components worked into traditionally more momentum based teams. As I noted, Parasect was an All-Star on my NU rain team the other night. Dry Skin, in the rain, is great when combined with the stall nature of this particular Parasect.

Parasect (M) @ Leftovers
252 HP/172 Def/84 SpD
Nature: Calm
Ability: Dry Skin/Effect Spore

Spore
Substitute
Leech Seed
X-Scissor/Aromatherapy

I know that is a pretty standard support set, but I do have a few comments. Obviously having the 100% acc spore is sweet. Plus subseed is pretty crazy on Parasect. It pretty effectively counters opposing rain (obviously playing around icebeam) not to mention counters a bunch of (from my limited experience with NU) physical sweepers just from typing alone.

I'm not sure on the last move in the set. X-Scissor prevents being taunted to oblivion (particularly since a lot of taunters are dark), but the idea of aromatherapy is intriguing as well. I like this mon as a well rounded stall option. While I think Dry Skin is the better of the abilities, effect spore could be useful, particularly against faster volturn teams. It's not a perfect wall, but it would seem to be a great annoyer on a stall team.

Any thoughts or am I completely off base here?

 

[Vintage Books]

Stall/bulky offense is probably my preferred playstyle, so when i build teams i generally build them like that.

One combo that I have enjoyed using is Wormadam-S and Quagsire (I wont post sets as ive been using the standard/pretty close to it) but with the prevalence of fire in the tier with magmortar and emboar, quagsire can switch into most of their choiced fire moves aimed at wormadam, Wormadam has access to stealth rock and psychic, and with the right investment, it can be a great asset.

Some other stall pokemon ive used and enjoyed are, Missy, subseed Eggy, Flareon, and I quite like Pineco too.

 

[TLCJR4LIFE]

Parasect is pretty terrible. Pretty much everything good in the tier can 2HKO it. Spore is nice, but that's about it.

 

[erisia]

I don't really know why I'd use Parasect in this tier, especially when it doesn't have the niche that Drizzle provides it in OU. Outside of Bug-type STAB, I think it's pretty much pure outclassed by Amoonguss.

 

[Lady Shinki]

I feel like hard stall in NU is too easily shut down. Stall really needs ways to both get hazards out and spinblock, and although Missy/Drifblim/Haunter are all great spinblockers for different reasons, the hazard setters leave a lot to be desired. Considering the only options for spikes are Garbodor, Cacturne, Whirlipede, Shelmet, and Omanyte, the sweepers of NU can come in for free on most of them and proceed to set up, and defensive checks to all the powerful, fast sweepers don't really exist. Tangela/Quag/Lickilicky(Audino) is in theory and practice a pretty good core, and there are lots of other good defensive groups, but because tangela and quagsire are centralizing defensive threats people are always trying to get creative to get around them. Many things can run a surprise HP Grass/Fire Blast or take advantage of them with STAB moves, or you can encounter something like Specs Eggy/CB Braviary which can 2hko both with their primary STAB moves (yeah, specs leaf storm 2hko's physically defensive tangela :(). Then you have things like stall-breaker Emboar that are tailor-made to beat cores like that with superpower/hp ice/grass knot/fire blast.

 

[Honus]

Thanks for the mention, Chaotica.

Anyways I really wanted to post in this thread but always forget to finish my post. Anyways the funny thing about stall in NU is that you have to choose between fulfilling all the elements of stall, such as a spinblocker, hazard layer, etc or checking the maximum threats possible. The same is somewhat true with some other tiers, but not to the extent that it is in NU. I wasn't able to have the luxury of all 3 hazards in my NU Stall team since Garbodor, which really was the only viable Spiker at the time, checked nothing that Tangela/Quagsire/Lickilicky already didn't and I think a spinner+gorebyss counter+Tspiker is a lot more useful than having Spikes. Additionally, stall breaking is extremely easily, people are coming up with new ways to beat TangelQuag, such as the Emboar in Lady Shinki's post and Mixed Absol/Samurott. Additionally, Stallbreak Missy and SubNP Missy are fantastic at breaking stall, as is Drifblim; Duosion outright rapes any stall teams without Hypno or Skuntank [maybe it could become suspect if stall emerges as a widely played playstle!]. I think that if we can get Crustle and possibly some new walls [Mandibuzz would be fantastic but that's not happening], then I do see a much brighter future for stall in NU. As of now, it's viable, but somewhat ineffective and easy to break.

 

[Gold Geno]

Meh, i've always preferred the "Run in and wreck stuff up" Playstyle (why call it Offensive? This is practically what it is). That said, i don't mind playing with Stall every so often. In particular, i love using Tangela just for it's ability to take damn near every physical attack ever. When you lay it all out though, it can be really hard to play a good stall team in NU just because there aren't many viable pokemon for the playstyle and those that are are so well known that your opponent is bound to have SOMETHING to take care of them.

 

[DTC]

Alright, we've discussed enough - let's make the team!

We will begin by nominating a single Pokemon. This single Pokemon should attempt to cover as much as possible for the stall team. You have 2 days to nominate Pokemon then we will vote. Each person can nominate up to 2 Pokemon.

I will start us off:

Miltank

Trait: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
- Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave / Seismic Toss
- Milk Drink
- Body Slam
- Heal Bell

• Sets up Stealth Rock
• Fast wall that can heal before various attacks
• Only one weakness that isn't that hard to cover
• Can spread paralysis
• Can heal Pokemon with Heal Bell
• Very physically and specially bulky
• Incredibly hard to take down

Miltank is not only incredibly hard to take down, it can also support the team with Stealth Rock / Heal Bell. It'd be a great starting point for this team and synergises well with good stall Pokemon such as Amoonguss. We could also use Thunder Wave / Seismic Toss if we want to use something else for Stealth Rock.