I see it as good the way it is. Yeah I think it would be safe to assume that if we did suspect testing on all the pokemon with Swift Swim, there would be some like Luvdisc and company that would be found to not deserved to be banned even with it. But that route would take a good amount of time to do. So at this point I would stay to stick with the complete ban.
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Aldaron's proposal: Satisfied?
- Thread starter Thorhammer
- Start date
Yes, I am satisfied with having Aldaron's proposal as a permanent solution. If it is popular opinion that we should change it (which is outrageous in itself, seeing as before the nominations thread went up the majority of us seemed to be satisfied with Aldaron's proposal) then I would not oppose testing.
The only thing I have against testing individual swift swimmers is that it would take as many months as we have suspects to get them all sorted out (possibly more), and even in the end every ban made would be incredibly arbitrary. "Which is the most powerful now?" "Would it be that powerful if x swift swimmer, which is also powerful, was banned?" and "Is a swift swimmer more powerful than another rain abuser?" are several major issues that would have to be sorted through, and we would have to repeat the entire process whenever a new event Pokemon or Dream World ability was released that could have effected the viability of Swift Swimmers. I see from the poll that a majority of people seem to think that Aldaron's proposal should not remain in its current state, but I don't think most of them understand what exactly balancing individual Swift Swimmers would entail.
The only thing I have against testing individual swift swimmers is that it would take as many months as we have suspects to get them all sorted out (possibly more), and even in the end every ban made would be incredibly arbitrary. "Which is the most powerful now?" "Would it be that powerful if x swift swimmer, which is also powerful, was banned?" and "Is a swift swimmer more powerful than another rain abuser?" are several major issues that would have to be sorted through, and we would have to repeat the entire process whenever a new event Pokemon or Dream World ability was released that could have effected the viability of Swift Swimmers. I see from the poll that a majority of people seem to think that Aldaron's proposal should not remain in its current state, but I don't think most of them understand what exactly balancing individual Swift Swimmers would entail.
Sandstorm doesn't require a complex ban. Its main culprit is Landorus, who, is a complete beast but would only require a ban for the individual Pokemon. I can't believe anyone would argue Excadrill is broken at this point in the metagame. I mean, at first there was this knee jerk reaction but now players have figured out how to deal with it.
I disagree with everyone who says the proposal ruined rain offense, that is just a ludicrous stance to try and defend. Politoed can still be used with Tornadus, Starmie, Lapras, Dragonite, Zapdos, Thundurus, Lati@s, Empoleon, Rotom-W, Scizor, Genesect, Metagross, Jirachi, Virizion, and all of the random water types that you could think of (Charge Beam Lanturn with Thunder and Hydro Pump is a beast). On the other hand, with Rain Dance you have all of the above options plus all the swift swimmers. It certainly didn't ruin rain.
I think the proposal has somewhat helped, but there were definitely other ways of going about it. Overall I'm rather pleased with the balance of rain in the current metagame. Maybe we just need more informative players who understand other ways of using the rain?
I disagree with everyone who says the proposal ruined rain offense, that is just a ludicrous stance to try and defend. Politoed can still be used with Tornadus, Starmie, Lapras, Dragonite, Zapdos, Thundurus, Lati@s, Empoleon, Rotom-W, Scizor, Genesect, Metagross, Jirachi, Virizion, and all of the random water types that you could think of (Charge Beam Lanturn with Thunder and Hydro Pump is a beast). On the other hand, with Rain Dance you have all of the above options plus all the swift swimmers. It certainly didn't ruin rain.
I think the proposal has somewhat helped, but there were definitely other ways of going about it. Overall I'm rather pleased with the balance of rain in the current metagame. Maybe we just need more informative players who understand other ways of using the rain?
haunter
Banned deucer.
Please let's try to stay on topic. We're discussing about the ban of Drizzle+Swift Swim. This combo ban has been decided to prevent the complete ban of either Drizzle or many SS users. The ban was decided after an extensive period of testing.
There's no need to even discuss about a possible Sandstream + Sand Rush ban because:
1) The only Sand Rush user has been voted OU already 3 times;
2) Excadrill has counters and checks in the current metagame. If you think that Excadrill is broken then you're just a bad player\team builder, sorry.
There's no need to even discuss about a possible Sandstream + Sand Rush ban because:
1) The only Sand Rush user has been voted OU already 3 times;
2) Excadrill has counters and checks in the current metagame. If you think that Excadrill is broken then you're just a bad player\team builder, sorry.
I think it's OK for now. In an ideal world it should be looked at again. (I also think we should look at banning only Speed Boost Blaziken, and indeed, in an ideal world, all the bans should be reviewed, except maybe the blatant Ubers). But let's wait until most or all of the Dream World Abilities are released, so that what's available is more stable (until Grey additions shake things up), and the OU metagame is more settled.
I beg to disagree with omastar, floatzel, huntail, gorebyss, and poliwrath, and say that carracosta is debateable.
While having high sp atk, Omastar has no real secondary stab or coverage options outside of Ice beam and hidden power. It quite simply put can't break through water absorbers, specially defensive bulky waters, and specially defensive nattorei (the specially defensive for the past two might not be needed), while it is retaliated against with either a double stab/scald surf or a quad SE power whip.
Floatzel is easily countered by bulky waters. It only has the slow bulk up to boost it's attack, and in rain waterfall is it's best option, despite the resistance. It will not enjoy double stab surfs/scalds on it's 85/50 special defense.
Huntail and Gorebyss I feel will be either broken or OU independent of rain. They lack real coverage outside the water/ice that most water types get, and can't really threaten waters (just like omastar). If they are broken, it is because they can pass +2/+2/+2 offensive boosts, which works outside or inside of rain.
Poliwrath is very priority weak thanks to belly drum, as well as being walled by Jellicent. He also cannot OHKO slowbro (max 84.3%) who will proceed to KO back, thanks to Poliwraths 40%- HP (BD and LO). Hypnosis is shaky at best and if it misses Poliwrath, he's probably too weak to BD (or will die to LO recoil right after). Oh yeah, LO. If he wants enough power with his 85 base attack and low BP secondary stab (brick break), he'll need it. With 50% gone right off the bat, he'll only get in 3-5 attacks, depending on hazards and damage taken on switch-in. If you have a nattorei, he loses two turns waterfalling it on the switchin and then brick breaking it for the kill. He also can only set up once, so there's no switching out of a priority user.
Carracosta cannot touch nattorei, and even with it's good defense I doubt it will enjoy quad SE power whip. Bulky waters, while not enjoying +2 Stone edge, will take it better than Kabutops's and hit him with double stab surf/scald on his weaker sp def (74/65). The only one who I could see being broken, since all that can take him is natty.
Notice a pattern here? They all take a lot of damage from bulky waters, who resist their main stab, and they often lack real coverage to hit them with. Kingdra and Ludicolo not only take water attacks with ease, but either hit them with Draco Meteor or stab SE attacks. Kabutops has a powerful stone edge, capable of taking down most neutral bulky waters. Carra the same, although he lacks the fighting coverage for natty and other Waterfall+ SE resists such as empy, strom drain gastrodon (who hits a lot of these guys with double stab +1 surf... quad grass weak is a killer though), water absorb (who know maybe even unaware) quagsire.
All in all I'd say 3-4 Uber, 3-4 OU, and 2 OU or Uber regardless out of the 9 you said.
Now, i only recently joined smogon, but i've being lurking on the forums for awhile, now and playing PO, now i have to say when drizzle and SS were allowed in the begining, only two were really broken and they were kingdra and ludicolo, i never really had a problem with kabutops, and occisionally volcarona's bug buzz would deal with ludi if i was lucky, but i feel the 3 as for meantioned by others are broken, but i feel the others should be allowed back, and tested to see if there are broken in drizzle aswell, but somehow i don't quite think Beartic will be ubers with Rain support.
The lv1 stuff was in Advance (I guess even before Emerald lol); CaP did a test in D/P (not even DPPt), but with level ~65 Kyogre/Groudon with 5-8 turn Weather.
I'm not going to post my opinion here now, so I just passed by to correct this.
It doesn't. Magikarp is available via Dream World. All Pokemon that have Swift Swim exclusively without their Dream World ability have been released via Dream World.
That's exactly the same as saying that Blaziken, Speed boost, and Hi Jump Kick are equal contributors to the problems with Blaziken, and therefore it would be fine to ban Speed Boost instead. It doesn't work that way. When most of the Pokemon with an ability are not broken, you don't ban the ability from all Pokemon; you ban the Pokemon that are broken.
The consequence is the 12-16 fully-evolved Pokemon (and 14 NFE Pokemon) that are banned from using Swift Swim when they are not broken under any circumstances, when we could instead allow many of those Pokemon to instead become OU and further diversify the metagame by dealing with the broken ones individually, either through complete bans or through alternative restrictions. Furthermore, as this is a ban on Swift Swim, rather than Swift Swim + Drizzle, it would also impact lower tiers, in which Rain Dance teams are more viable, in which even more Pokemon are affected than the few which could be viable in OU.
Countless Pokemon were theorymonned to be broken at the start of each generation, including Gen 5. There's no reason why your theorymonning can be assumed to be any more accurate. If other complex methods (such as banning Kingdra + Drizzle) were ruled out, then the only Pokemon we know would be banned by the removal of Aldaron's proposal are Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops. Omastar, Huntail, Poliwrath, Gorebyss, and Carracosta might be banned as well, but that remains to be seen. Sure, they could also be viable in lower tiers, but so could Blaze Blaziken. As for Floatzel, while I'm sure it would become an excellent OU Pokemon, there isn't the slightest indication that it would be made broken by Swift Swim + Drizzle.
And again, that's only if we rule out other complex alternatives, such as banning the individual Pokemon in combination with Drizzle rather than entirely. If you're willing to accept a continued Swift Swim + Drizzle ban, there's no reason not to accept a Kingdra + Drizzle ban.
The issue of the other swift-swim pokemon being banned isn't really important to me, we can figure that out, and if we're not suspect testing, all we're doing is blowing hot air around.
My question is: Ban Drizzle and the overpowered pokemon on the same team, or ban swift swim on those pokemon? I don't feel that banning an ability on a pokemon is silly, I think it makes perfect sense. This would also encourage other DrizzleSwim teams to work, because they won't be afraid of somebody with a kingdra or ludicolo sweeping their whole team. I think that this is a good thing.
My question is: Ban Drizzle and the overpowered pokemon on the same team, or ban swift swim on those pokemon? I don't feel that banning an ability on a pokemon is silly, I think it makes perfect sense. This would also encourage other DrizzleSwim teams to work, because they won't be afraid of somebody with a kingdra or ludicolo sweeping their whole team. I think that this is a good thing.
You're straw manning the point I made. They are all equal contributions to the problem, but I wasn't implying that that means we have to ban one particular thing specifically (in fact it was the complete opposite of what I was trying to point out).
The point is that all the factors play a role, and we should ban what makes sense, and what is concise. Banning Speed Boost on Blaziken doesn't equate to banning Swift Swim. First of all, banning Swift Swim is a clean blanket ban on the entire ability, while banning Speed Boost on Blaziken is another complex ban. Secondly, assuming you banned Speed Boost, it wouldn't equate to the same thing. There are multiple problematic Pokemon in the rain with Drizzle and Swift Swim, while Speed Boost is clearly only problematic on Blaziken thus far.
You missed my points entirely.
Im still not satisfied, rain still seams broken.
Where did I ever indicate that my theorymoning was accurate? I was just listing pokemon that MAY be broken under infinite Rain with Swift Swim.
As I said before, Swift Swimmers are broken under Drizzle. Swift Swimmers do not cause Drizzle. Blaziken is broken with Speed Boost, however, another pokemon does not provide Speed Boost for Blaziken. Therefor, Blaziken is the broken party. Banning Speed Boost on Blaziken is totally different from banning DrizzleToad and SS Kingdra being used in tandem, because Speed Boost is part of Blaziken, Infinite Rain is NOT part of Kingdra.
There is no single broken party with Swift Swim and Drizzle. Neither is broken without the other, IMO.
As for why I don't think banning Drizzle is the answer:
- Makes Rain Stall unviable
- Makes Rain Offense Unviable
- Will almost certainly lead to a ban of Drought, and possibly even Sand Stream [Hail sucks]
- Some of the pokemon, such as Ludicolo, who are not broken of their own accord, have uses in other teams [Rain Stall] and teirs. Blaziken was broken of his own accord, however, so do not bring up Blaze Blaziken against this, as the two situations are not the same.
- Could lead to multiple bans of pokemon not even OU worthy under normal circumstances [Huntail? Carracosta, Omastar]
- Will slow down the suspect process, by repeatedly testing the same types of pokemon again, just the teir below them.
- Banning Swift Swim would have to lead to a blanket ban on all equivilent abilities. As the rain can't be the broken party, otherwise, Drizzle would have been banned, and the pokemon cannot be the broken party, as otherwise, they would be banned. Therefor, an ability that doubles speed is broken, so Sand Rush and Chlorophill are broken.
How about Garchomp + Sand Stream?
Volcarona or Venusaur + Drought?
Notice the floodgate?
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As for my ideal course of action?
In all honesty, the more I play now, the more I just want weather gone. More people are now running rain offense, almost at the levels of pre-Alderon. Sand is high too, and so's Sun. Were back at square one, it seems. Normal teams can't flourish, unless they're abuseing multiple suspects who are powerful enough in their own right to dominate non-weather teams, but the sheer might of weather keeps them 'checked', such as Latios and Renkulus, sand in particular being the check for these two. Due to Tyranitar.
Seriously, I personally want Drizzle/Drought/Sand Stream gone, or, I'll just wait on 5th Gen UU. At this rate, it'll basically be 4th Gen OU, after all.
However, I'm content with Alderon at this point, because if Drizzle is removed [Which is the next logical step, seeing as Rain is still insane], well, prepare for a 2-weather metagame, with every other team being more or less the same.
I'm not sure what your main issue with weather is. Do you just want it banned because you don't want to have to counter or play through it? How do you even define a "Normal" team? Don't most teams have counters for threats that they'll have to face? Isn't that the -entire point- of defensive pokemon, to counter something? I really don't understand what you're going on about here.
On Blaziken and "complex bans" - to me it's clear that banning Blaze Blaziken, or Swift Swim Kingdra, or any other Pokemon with only one of its abilities, is simpler than making bans like Drizzle + Swift Swim, where you're banning two things in conjunction.
Making bans like Drizzle + Kingdra, Drizzle + Ludicolo, Drizzle + Kabutops won't make things simpler, but just banning Swift Swim Kingdra, or alternatively Drizzle Politoed, is a simpler option.
Of course, simplicity isn't the only consideration, perhaps not even the major one.
Making bans like Drizzle + Kingdra, Drizzle + Ludicolo, Drizzle + Kabutops won't make things simpler, but just banning Swift Swim Kingdra, or alternatively Drizzle Politoed, is a simpler option.
Of course, simplicity isn't the only consideration, perhaps not even the major one.
I admit that I misunderstood your conclusion, but the differences you bring up don't seem relevant. First, to clarify: My suggestion regarding Speed Boost was not that your suggestion would equate to banning Blaziken + Speed Boost, but that it would equate to banning Speed Boost on all Pokemon, a simple ban like the ban of Swift Swim.
With that in mind, multiple Pokemon being broken with Swift Swim + Drizzle is hardly relevant, as it's still a minority. Banning Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops may entail more separate bans than a single blanket ban of Swift Swim, but that isn't any more of a reason to make a blanket ban on Swift Swim instead than it is to make a blanket ban on all 42 Pokemon with 600+ BST rather than banning 18 Pokemon individually.
So with that in mind: Why ban Swift Swim rather than individual Pokemon?
You said "probably", which implies that it was accurate. If your argument is that they are just bans that might happen, then we're on the same page.
Infinite rain may not be part of the Swift Swim users, but as it currently stands, it's a part of the game, like any other factor.
Last gen, Salamence was banned. It could not use Stealth Rock, but Stealth Rock's damage against its counters surely contributed to it being broken. Would Salamence have been broken if Stealth Rock was not permitted? I'm not sure; I wasn't active on Smogon at the time those matters were being decided. Let's assume it was. Would that be a reason not to ban Salamence? It's the same story with Drizzle.
Also, Manaphy is only known to be broken with Drizzle, and yet it was banned entirely.
No objections.
Pokemon are rarely broken in isolation. Unless a team consisting only of Blaziken was broken, Blaziken is not broken of his own accord. He's broken on the accord of himself and reasonable team support, just like Ludicolo.
"Normal circumstances" are irrelevant. If a Pokemon is broken, it's broken, regardless of what tier it might otherwise be in.
We don't have to slow down the testing process if we test them on the Suspect ladder. Besides, look at how multifaceted this disagreement is. No matter what, we aren't going to reach a good solution without slowing down and reconsidering things.
No objections.
Kingdra was mentioned as an example to cut it down to one Pokemon. I indeed advocate for bans of Kabutops + Drizzle and Ludicolo + Drizzle, as well. I'm aware of the potential alternative applications of the latter, but they're no more relevant than the potential alternatives of Blaze Blaziken.
And yes, it would also apply to any other Swift Swim abusers. If Omastar and Gorebyss turn out to also become broken with Swift Swim + Drizzle, then I will advocate for Omastar + Drizzle and Gorebyss + Drizzle. On a related note, I also believe that Manaphy + Drizzle should be tested. In fact, the idea of that ban was what originally lead me to this matter.
I don't support a ban of Garchomp + Sand Stream. Instead, I've been advocating for bans on Sand Veil + Sand Stream and Snow Cloak + Snow Warning.
But that is where the doors slam shut, and no floodgates are opened. For that is the extent to which there is actually a good reason to ban something for weather-related reasons, whether for brokenness or uncompetitiveness. No Pokemon or ability has been indicated to be either broken or uncompetitive when and only when combined with Drought. We should consider such bans to be an option, but they should still only be used when there is something to ban. The fact that we can ban certain things under that rule does not mean that we can or should ban everything under that rule. Not everything warrants a ban.
I agree with this whole heartedly, the fact that rain boosts water types power and lowers fire types power is what makes it that much better than sandstorm. The only pokemon that gets an attack / spa boost on its stab moves in sand is Randorosu which is what makes sand much more balanced than rain. The same argument can be made for sun as it boosts fire attacks and reduces water types power, but sun pokemon are weak to priority and stealth rock weak, which put them at a greater disadvantage. Rain still over centralizes and is in general to powerful, if you take rain out of the metagame, I feel like generation 5 is at its best.
Alot of users seem to be making the argument that there are other swift swim users that are not broken in rain. You may be right, but honestly I wouldn't use any of them beside maybe Qwilfish / Floatzel. If I were to run a drizzle team I would abuse bulky steel types, Thunder and Hurricane abusers (as reach mentioned) and things like sub toxicroak that actually work outside of rain. Not to mention the things I mentioned are overall much better in rain than the said swift swimmers excluding Kabutops, Ludicolo and Kingdra.
All in all Drizzle is broken all around as far as I see it, ban it completely.
So you're against it as a permanent solution, but you're fine with letting it stay until time isn't a concern.
Anyone else feel this way? I certainly feel that it would at least be better than leaving it as a permanent solution, and would help as a compromise with those concerned about time.
I'd appreciate it if we discussed the topic at hand and the decisions that should be made rather than attempting to relate our relevant topic to something else. You should know that having a blanket ban on Swift Swim doesn't equate to banning Pokemon with 600+ BST because BST is not a sole determining factor of a Pokemons tiering, meanwhile we've discussed, debated, experienced, and on a majority come to the conclusion that (regardless of what the "culprit" is), Drizzle + Water Pokemon + Swift Swim = problematic concern.
Here are the facts. The community mostly agreed amongst a majority that Drizzle with powerful Pokemon that had access to Swift Swim was too overpowering. This topic is to discuss either the potential elimination or the renegotiation of Aldaron's proposal. You have three options.
- Ban Drizzle
- Ban Swift Swim
- Ban Pokemon A, B, C, D, E...et cetera
I've explained why banning Swift Swim is most beneficial. Rather than using relating examples to attempt to explain why my proposal isn't ideal, I'd like to hear some reasons as to why the other two options are preferable. Most notably the third option, because the reasons for banning Drizzle seem pretty cut and dry; I just personally don't agree with them myself.
Anything else leading to a more complex clause or ban, to me, seems like a big waste of political effort.