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All Gens Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer Mark II (RoA edition)
- Thread starter Jellicent
- Start date
While I tend to think of myself on the upper end of the group of people who kind of know what they're doing in GSC, because I'm relatively new to the scene, I learned almost exclusively by reading Borat's guides and looking through the GSC VR. Which means that I have some holes in my foundation for my GSC knowledge. Basically trying to patch them up here.
I feel like I'm overusing Curselax. Is there any variant of curselax I should default to when multiple variants can work just as well, or when I have no idea which variant is the best? Also, are there any other variants than curse/drum/eq+fblast/toxic/storm (thunder + surf)? I've also heard of Starterlax, but don't know what moves entails such, or if it's just an SD mixlax in the lead position.
I read something somewhere (maybe a borat post on the PO forums?) about using Spikes only if it's an integral part of your strategy, such as toxic spikes shuffling, nidoking + spikes, or generating offensive pressure on forry/missy stall. Yet now, I'm hearing that Spikes are as important as Stealth Rock in DPP+, where it's either mandatory or there's no reason not to use it. Which statement is true?
I'm a little confused about Steelix. I've thought of it as an answer to both non-firelax and non-HP Water electrics in one, but I feel that this view is flawed, somehow. I've thought of it as more offensive than Skarmory, but I end up only phazing snorlax, and tend to run Rock Slide just so Zapdos can't eventually beat me with repeated HP Ices, meaning the only offense I get is a free earthquake vs Raikou, late-game spikes shuffling, and/or Explosion, if I'm running it. So how much of my view is true, and what do I need to change/know?
What does Curse Tyranitar run, assuming curse/roar/rs? I'm assuming pursuit, since otherwise it's just a shitty rhydon that can gamble vs. electrics instead of needing to hit them with RS on the switch, but without earthquake it gets really bad coverage with mono-rock.
On forretress, how mandatory is Explosion? I find myself almost never using it, instead using toxic + HP Bug/Ghost. Also, what does curse forretress run as its last, assuming spikes/spin/curse?
What's the deal with porygon2? From what I've read, it seems that the advocated set is curse/stab/recover/twave/ice beam, which obviously can't exist. Is it more like curse or ice beam/recover/stab/thunder wave or toxic?
I've heard that Espeon is like Gengar and Heracross in that there's the set you want to run, and then there's the set you have to run. What is that set? I'm assuming growth/psychic/bp, but is the last HP Water/Grass, or morning sun, or what?
How does luna work in-game? I know of the legendary set of lk/sub/dual stabs, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it got its legend status. Just that it can potentially sleep just about anything, while avoiding zap? Or some kind of cheese sleep/sub/attack until sleep ends/repeat until dead?
I feel like I'm overusing Curselax. Is there any variant of curselax I should default to when multiple variants can work just as well, or when I have no idea which variant is the best? Also, are there any other variants than curse/drum/eq+fblast/toxic/storm (thunder + surf)? I've also heard of Starterlax, but don't know what moves entails such, or if it's just an SD mixlax in the lead position.
I read something somewhere (maybe a borat post on the PO forums?) about using Spikes only if it's an integral part of your strategy, such as toxic spikes shuffling, nidoking + spikes, or generating offensive pressure on forry/missy stall. Yet now, I'm hearing that Spikes are as important as Stealth Rock in DPP+, where it's either mandatory or there's no reason not to use it. Which statement is true?
I'm a little confused about Steelix. I've thought of it as an answer to both non-firelax and non-HP Water electrics in one, but I feel that this view is flawed, somehow. I've thought of it as more offensive than Skarmory, but I end up only phazing snorlax, and tend to run Rock Slide just so Zapdos can't eventually beat me with repeated HP Ices, meaning the only offense I get is a free earthquake vs Raikou, late-game spikes shuffling, and/or Explosion, if I'm running it. So how much of my view is true, and what do I need to change/know?
What does Curse Tyranitar run, assuming curse/roar/rs? I'm assuming pursuit, since otherwise it's just a shitty rhydon that can gamble vs. electrics instead of needing to hit them with RS on the switch, but without earthquake it gets really bad coverage with mono-rock.
On forretress, how mandatory is Explosion? I find myself almost never using it, instead using toxic + HP Bug/Ghost. Also, what does curse forretress run as its last, assuming spikes/spin/curse?
What's the deal with porygon2? From what I've read, it seems that the advocated set is curse/stab/recover/twave/ice beam, which obviously can't exist. Is it more like curse or ice beam/recover/stab/thunder wave or toxic?
I've heard that Espeon is like Gengar and Heracross in that there's the set you want to run, and then there's the set you have to run. What is that set? I'm assuming growth/psychic/bp, but is the last HP Water/Grass, or morning sun, or what?
How does luna work in-game? I know of the legendary set of lk/sub/dual stabs, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it got its legend status. Just that it can potentially sleep just about anything, while avoiding zap? Or some kind of cheese sleep/sub/attack until sleep ends/repeat until dead?
Not gonna reply to every question because some are really opinion-based and other people will probably have alot more educated answers for some.
I might attempt some answers to the question that I didn't talk about tomorrow, maybe someone else covers them though.
Both statements aren't false, how important or mandatory spikes really are depends on who you ask though. I would agree with the importance of Spikes compared to SR, the only difference is that in newer gens it is really easy to fit SR on a team, in GSC you have a whole 2 viable setters, 4 if you are in a ballsy mood, and they are used pretty much just for setting Spikes. I mean you can make cases for the Explosion and/or Spin on both and like Forrys bulk and Cloysters bulk and decently strong attacks, but let's be real, they are suboptimal choices for everything that isn't setting spikes. Both mons are rather passive mons and it's hard to justify using them if the Spikes aren't of integral importance to you. Note the "to you" here, some players will tell you it's always better to have spikes than not to and you should make a case against them instead of for them, others will tell you the opposite. Several strategies absolutely need spikes, many enjoy spikes but can function without them and some don't care about them. I'd really say it's a case-to-case thing and depends on the player and their playstyle.
First of all Ttar isn't just a worse rhydon if it runs curse. Different stats, different weaknesses. Just look at how the Exeggutor matchup changes, especially if they don't carry giga drain, I'd say that's pretty relevant differences. Also mono rock isn't really that bad coverage, you really only don't hit the ground types with it. Here is some more in-depth talk on (curse) Ttar by Jorgen, Pursuit can be dropped. Not saying it's the best use of it, but still.
Forry isn't really an offensive boomer like others are because it attracts normal resists or immunes way too often. You do have a surefire way against drumlax or in other pinches though and using spin + boom on the same mon is one of forrys central niches. I wouldn't say it's too mandatory on forry, only spikes and spin (unless you want one of those spike up and boom asap forrys) are mandatory, the rest can/should be tailored to what your team wants it to do most. I'd say curse forry uses spikes, spin, curse and hp bug or toxic. But curse forry is terribad since it doesn't actually beat curselax, the thing you want to use it for. I never got the point in using it and there is a reason why it's so unpopular.
Basically I just see two sets, Curse with instant recovery and a special filler move or a support set with twave, double edge and ice beam that matches up well vs electrics and effectively spreads para against many things. It's a niche mon though and the sets are niche too, on top of that you got alot of viable other options, so it's really hard to talk about an advocated set there.
One set is growth passing and one set is growth sweeper. Growth/Psychic/BP/MS and Growth/Psychic/MS/HP (fire usually). Not sure where pulling an analogy to an analogy leads you but I guess it is sorta similar to what someone said about some other pokemon at some point. The sweeper set is sorta odd since you see yourself cockblocked by something all the time, depending on your hp, and steels or ttar are pretty common, as well as snorlax of course. The bp set obviously gets walled by things and your plan of passing to something to accomplish something usually requires many conditions to be met. So I guess you can say it's sorta like Heracross in that regard that you have some sets and they are decent but won't blow you off your seat at any time because you always miss out on something.
I might attempt some answers to the question that I didn't talk about tomorrow, maybe someone else covers them though.
What fun is it if you don't answer opinion-based questions though?
Personally, I seem to regret every game I use a non-Curse Snorlax. Maybe I just suck, but I think it's more that "Curselax" doesn't have any real counters. Obviously it can't beat everything with four moves but its coverage move can theoretically beat anything, and even if your opponent packs multiple counters for different individual movesets, the fact is that they're all defensive and don't take away any of the Curselax player's momentum. There is no offensively breaking Curselax because it's so stupidly bulky on both sides and an offensive powerhouse, there are only different ways of forcing it out until you can either beat it 1vX or get your own thing setup that can punch through unboosted Lax later. You can flip the switch on a non-Curselax because an unboosted Snorlax is threatened by Explosion, it gets 3HKOed by Dynamicpunch Ttar, Heracross... plus Lax is so slow that even some other Curse users still outspeed it at +1.
As for Bed's statement, while you're obviously using Spikers for Spikes, Cloyster is halfway decent on its own merits. Compared to Suicune, for example, it has higher physical bulk plus it gets Explosion and STAB on Ice Beam. Not bad. And even if you don't need the Spikes at all, Cloyster is a good Starmie lure to open up Machamp for a sweep; if the opponent doesn't have Starmie you're not too sad about having Spikes down and Cloyster has mostly free reign to Explode on anything else since its typing scares off most Normal resists. Forry is pretty ass though because it has basically no offensive capability outside of Explosion and no defensive utility outside of its Normal resistance. Except it can't do anything to Normal resists that opponents wouldn't just always switch them in, and it can't do dick to Snorlax anyway. Forry is a dedicated Spikes setter.
Steelix is hardly more offensive than Skarmory, 5 base Attack and EQ > DP notwithstanding. You need Rock Slide to beat Skarm in endgame scenarios, you need it to threaten Zapdos at all, you still can't touch Eggy, Cloyster walks all over you, etc. About all that's "offensive" about it is its Roaring, which Steelix does fairly well because, while Steelix has a hard time pressuring opponents with raw damage, opponents will often have a hard time threatening Steelix likewise. Granted Fire Blast makes it an imperfect Snorlax counter, but what else can act as a soft counter or such an excellent pivot switching around all three of Snorlax, Zapdos, and Raikou? Nothing. I don't think more needs to be said of Steelix. It's also immune to random Toxic users. The fact that it can sweep with Curse in some endgame scenarios, ala Skarmory, is just gravy.
Curse on Forry is lol because it's so offensively impotent, like even worse than Steelix/Skarm and you don't have your own phazing to counter other phazers either. Explosion, while not mandatory, is just nice to have on Forry as an emergency button. Blow up on Machamp troubling you, do 60% to a +1 Snorlax and skip its turn, whatever. Offensively it's not useful, because Forry has no offense, but it still has defensive utility. It's also just nice when you're ahead and you know you have an all but guaranteed "trade mons" button.
P2 covered fine by Beds. I'm really disappointed it's only been used literally once this SPL either. It's one of the best singular paralysis spreaders at any rate, because it hits just hard enough to scare off Sleep Talking Electrics from absorbing status ad nauseam (or even sleeping Snorlax) and Ice Beam dissuades Ground-types.
Espeon, I don't see why it can't just do Psychic/BP/Growth filler and see nothing it "has" to run in the fourth moveslot. and wtf is a luna, Jynx?
Edito: Sparse responses were, in part, an attempt to force myself to go to bed ASAP.
Still, mono-Cursetar is pretty bad. Rock Slide as a singular STAB is impotent, it's barely stronger at +1 than Rhydon's unboosted Earthquake is. You don't need STAB to beat Zapdos, which is where Steelix's survivability advantage comes into play, you don't need STAB to beat Skarm in endgame and you otherwise "beat" it with Roar anyway (though Toxic will own non-Steelix if you run two-attack instead of Rest), you only need STAB against non-Giga Drain Eggy because you don't beat GD Eggy regardless (especially not Rhydon). Well, not quite true because you need STAB to beat Curse Skarm endgame, but you probably won't kill it anyway and simply win off PP if you have it 1vX. You also can't OHKO jack shit at max Attack Rock Slide. Meanwhile, even +1 Rhydon 2HKOs virtually everything, and of course Steelix has a much better set of resists.
But then what do you run as a second attack? Obviously not Earthquake, then you really are just a shitty Rhydon. But it's your generally best option... You can run Pursuit and catch Dark weaks unaware, but it won't work very well when they either stay in expecting it and you can't punish with Crunch, or anything else, or you reveal Curse yourself which gives away that you can't do shit if they don't switch out of Pursuit. Crunch isn't good for much outside of beating Snorlax 1v1. I would say just don't run Curse/Roar Ttar because Rhydon and/or Steelix will do it better. Curse/Rest might still have a niche? Maybe Curse + 3 attacks has some merit? Say, use Curse defensively to not-lose to Snorlax while you Crunch through it, and the Attack boost severely punishes whatever comes out to deal with Ttar once you force Lax out.
Still Curse on Forry bad, P2 is as Beds said. To add on to the above, Cursegon has the theoretical advantage over Curselax in Recover making it a bit "faster." But really it's slower because you need boosts to threaten offensively and you take so much more Special attack damage, including a worrisome ~40% from Zapkou Thunder to say nothing of the potential PAR, that you have to spend more time Recovering anyway. At any rate, Cursegon is a decent "Snorlax-lite" but nothing more.
Espeon's always going to get cockblocked by various things, because Psychic has immunities unlike Surf and less PP and even if you use Morning Sun it only has 8 PP and Espeon is pretty frail and... It's not Vaporeon, it's not going to sweep by itself. Use Baton Pass and pop phazers for decent damage if they get in your way. Last move can be Morning Sun for general survivability, might help you get multiple Growths in against special attackers or stay healthy for threats like Nidoking or Gengar that Espeon counters, or a coverage move. I'd suggest something that hits Ttar because of its Psychic immunity, since even mere resists like Skarm or Steelix will be worn down by +1 Psychic on the phaze out.
As for Jynx, assuming 'tis what you were referring to, I've never heard of any "legend." But it's a decent and usable mon if not totally invisible in the metagame. Mean Look Nightmare was a semi-thing back in the day because it circumvented a Sleep Perish Trap ban while being functionally similar but the ban, where applicable, has mostly been generalized to Sleep Trap now. These days I imagine it merely functions as a fast sleeper that Zapdos doesn't want to switch into. LK + dual STAB gives you room for any random utility move your heart desires, including Counter which totally maims Snorlax if it doesn't try to boost in your face instead.
Curse is what makes Snorlax the arguably overpowered powerhouse it is in GSC, it's merely a top tier mon without it. It stuffs Explosion and random physical mons coming in and contesting you, in particular other Snorlax... in particular particular enemy Curselax because their ability to boost and your inability means you lose that matchup. It also generally makes you more dangerous to everything that isn't a dedicated Snorlax counter, because generally speaking in GSC you go for 3HKOs and even just boosting to +1 for the 2HKO takes the same amount of turns as a natural 3HKO while setting you up better for the future. Say, switching into Zapdos bird can just pepper you with Thunders and force you to Rest with good accuracy. Curse makes you much more dangerous if it misses, and if it hits at least you have boosted Defense so generally the opponent's only viable response at that point is "go to phazer and Roar/WW Snorlax out." Now your sleep counter is at zero for the next time you bring Lax back in. Without Curse, opponent just brings in their own Snorlax or whatever and you're like oh shit better get out of here, sleep counter not at zero.
Personally, I seem to regret every game I use a non-Curse Snorlax. Maybe I just suck, but I think it's more that "Curselax" doesn't have any real counters. Obviously it can't beat everything with four moves but its coverage move can theoretically beat anything, and even if your opponent packs multiple counters for different individual movesets, the fact is that they're all defensive and don't take away any of the Curselax player's momentum. There is no offensively breaking Curselax because it's so stupidly bulky on both sides and an offensive powerhouse, there are only different ways of forcing it out until you can either beat it 1vX or get your own thing setup that can punch through unboosted Lax later. You can flip the switch on a non-Curselax because an unboosted Snorlax is threatened by Explosion, it gets 3HKOed by Dynamicpunch Ttar, Heracross... plus Lax is so slow that even some other Curse users still outspeed it at +1.
Spikes are very important, and yet not at all important. For the most part, it's just nice that they nullify Leftovers especially against stuff that doesn't normally carry recovery so it helps wear down Eggy, non-EQ Snorlax chip down Tyranitar, etc. If you're running Marowak or Drumlax, well max Attack STAB attacks happen to only do ~90% to a lot of bulky shit so Spikes is a boon to make sure you actually OHKO everything instead of, say, Marowak dies to not-quite-dead Cloyster. They're only 100% necessary if you do some triple-phazer Skarm/Kou/Suicune stall shit with no proper offense because Spikes kinda is your offense in that case.
As for Bed's statement, while you're obviously using Spikers for Spikes, Cloyster is halfway decent on its own merits. Compared to Suicune, for example, it has higher physical bulk plus it gets Explosion and STAB on Ice Beam. Not bad. And even if you don't need the Spikes at all, Cloyster is a good Starmie lure to open up Machamp for a sweep; if the opponent doesn't have Starmie you're not too sad about having Spikes down and Cloyster has mostly free reign to Explode on anything else since its typing scares off most Normal resists. Forry is pretty ass though because it has basically no offensive capability outside of Explosion and no defensive utility outside of its Normal resistance. Except it can't do anything to Normal resists that opponents wouldn't just always switch them in, and it can't do dick to Snorlax anyway. Forry is a dedicated Spikes setter.
So you took a view against the conventional wisdom, and then your observations told you that the conventional wisdom was correct all along? Because that's what I'm reading.
Steelix is hardly more offensive than Skarmory, 5 base Attack and EQ > DP notwithstanding. You need Rock Slide to beat Skarm in endgame scenarios, you need it to threaten Zapdos at all, you still can't touch Eggy, Cloyster walks all over you, etc. About all that's "offensive" about it is its Roaring, which Steelix does fairly well because, while Steelix has a hard time pressuring opponents with raw damage, opponents will often have a hard time threatening Steelix likewise. Granted Fire Blast makes it an imperfect Snorlax counter, but what else can act as a soft counter or such an excellent pivot switching around all three of Snorlax, Zapdos, and Raikou? Nothing. I don't think more needs to be said of Steelix. It's also immune to random Toxic users. The fact that it can sweep with Curse in some endgame scenarios, ala Skarmory, is just gravy.
Ttar bleh. It's not strictly worse than Rhydon, sure, or even Steelix or whatever other "Normal-resistant Curse user" you wanna throw out there. But I really don't like it in general so I won't say much here. Psychic resist, sure, but without Crunch or at least Pursuit you're not scaring away even non-Giga Drain Eggy which almost always means it has Leech Seed instead anyway and will laugh at your attempts to boost.
Curse on Forry is lol because it's so offensively impotent, like even worse than Steelix/Skarm and you don't have your own phazing to counter other phazers either. Explosion, while not mandatory, is just nice to have on Forry as an emergency button. Blow up on Machamp troubling you, do 60% to a +1 Snorlax and skip its turn, whatever. Offensively it's not useful, because Forry has no offense, but it still has defensive utility. It's also just nice when you're ahead and you know you have an all but guaranteed "trade mons" button.
P2 covered fine by Beds. I'm really disappointed it's only been used literally once this SPL either. It's one of the best singular paralysis spreaders at any rate, because it hits just hard enough to scare off Sleep Talking Electrics from absorbing status ad nauseam (or even sleeping Snorlax) and Ice Beam dissuades Ground-types.
Espeon, I don't see why it can't just do Psychic/BP/Growth filler and see nothing it "has" to run in the fourth moveslot. and wtf is a luna, Jynx?
Edito: Sparse responses were, in part, an attempt to force myself to go to bed ASAP.
Still, mono-Cursetar is pretty bad. Rock Slide as a singular STAB is impotent, it's barely stronger at +1 than Rhydon's unboosted Earthquake is. You don't need STAB to beat Zapdos, which is where Steelix's survivability advantage comes into play, you don't need STAB to beat Skarm in endgame and you otherwise "beat" it with Roar anyway (though Toxic will own non-Steelix if you run two-attack instead of Rest), you only need STAB against non-Giga Drain Eggy because you don't beat GD Eggy regardless (especially not Rhydon). Well, not quite true because you need STAB to beat Curse Skarm endgame, but you probably won't kill it anyway and simply win off PP if you have it 1vX. You also can't OHKO jack shit at max Attack Rock Slide. Meanwhile, even +1 Rhydon 2HKOs virtually everything, and of course Steelix has a much better set of resists.
But then what do you run as a second attack? Obviously not Earthquake, then you really are just a shitty Rhydon. But it's your generally best option... You can run Pursuit and catch Dark weaks unaware, but it won't work very well when they either stay in expecting it and you can't punish with Crunch, or anything else, or you reveal Curse yourself which gives away that you can't do shit if they don't switch out of Pursuit. Crunch isn't good for much outside of beating Snorlax 1v1. I would say just don't run Curse/Roar Ttar because Rhydon and/or Steelix will do it better. Curse/Rest might still have a niche? Maybe Curse + 3 attacks has some merit? Say, use Curse defensively to not-lose to Snorlax while you Crunch through it, and the Attack boost severely punishes whatever comes out to deal with Ttar once you force Lax out.
Still Curse on Forry bad, P2 is as Beds said. To add on to the above, Cursegon has the theoretical advantage over Curselax in Recover making it a bit "faster." But really it's slower because you need boosts to threaten offensively and you take so much more Special attack damage, including a worrisome ~40% from Zapkou Thunder to say nothing of the potential PAR, that you have to spend more time Recovering anyway. At any rate, Cursegon is a decent "Snorlax-lite" but nothing more.
Espeon's always going to get cockblocked by various things, because Psychic has immunities unlike Surf and less PP and even if you use Morning Sun it only has 8 PP and Espeon is pretty frail and... It's not Vaporeon, it's not going to sweep by itself. Use Baton Pass and pop phazers for decent damage if they get in your way. Last move can be Morning Sun for general survivability, might help you get multiple Growths in against special attackers or stay healthy for threats like Nidoking or Gengar that Espeon counters, or a coverage move. I'd suggest something that hits Ttar because of its Psychic immunity, since even mere resists like Skarm or Steelix will be worn down by +1 Psychic on the phaze out.
As for Jynx, assuming 'tis what you were referring to, I've never heard of any "legend." But it's a decent and usable mon if not totally invisible in the metagame. Mean Look Nightmare was a semi-thing back in the day because it circumvented a Sleep Perish Trap ban while being functionally similar but the ban, where applicable, has mostly been generalized to Sleep Trap now. These days I imagine it merely functions as a fast sleeper that Zapdos doesn't want to switch into. LK + dual STAB gives you room for any random utility move your heart desires, including Counter which totally maims Snorlax if it doesn't try to boost in your face instead.
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I guess I worded it poorly. It's obvious that literally every team in the entirety of competitive Pokemon (except maybe select ADV teams that have a bad matchup vs starmie???), and that the entire argument for limiting spikes usage is that you're forced to run one of two shitty mons, therefore usually giving yourself a synergy disadvantage. Though I guess it can go either way.
I had remembered someone making that statement before - for Gengar, you want to run PSong, FBlast, Psychic, Mean Look, a lot of fun stuff, but you're pretty much relegated to boltbeam/hyp or dpunch/boom or dbond. Heracross wants to run Earthquake, HP Rock, HP Fighting, Counter, but it's forced into restalk/megahorn/curse or stoss. For espeon, you want to run sub, morning sun, hp water, hp grass, hp fire, bite?, but you need to run growth/psychic/bp/hp water, so ttar doesn't literally make espy a crutch. At least steels can get damaged by 135 off 358 SpA (assuming growth + resist cancel out). Sure MS is probably the best idea outside HP Water but that's only really useful in a tour setting where you're 90% positive your opp isn't bringing a dark.
I mean, curselax is obviously good, but I tend to wish I had an extra coverage move, or LK, or boom, or something other than curse. I guess it's more of a personal playstyle thing, I tend to use lax as an offensive 'mon with the ability to switch into zap, where curselax is mainly a defensive 'mon. If I wanted lax to potentially sweep I'd take drum > curse anytime, curse seems more as a way to deal with physicals a lot better, and to generate offensive pressure. The only difference between curse > stab and using stab twice is that the former saves a stab PP while the latter does 50% more damage, and defensive mons tend to care about pp more and damage less. Maybe. I got two hours of sleep today so some of my thinking may be off.
My problem was that I didn't know the conventional wisdom in the first place. the GSC smogdex is mid-tier at best, so I didn't have a good definition as to what steelix is supposed to do, meaning I basically had to rerun the proofs myself. It isn't as straight-forward as "phazer" or "normal resist"; how does it phaze? Offensively, like Raikou? Defensively, like Skarm? Or a mix? Does it really deal with Lax when it's hit by both Fire Blast and EQ, and can only really phaze in return? What teams can get away with having a phazer boom? what does it have that separates it from skarm? just the ground typing? etc. I was on the right street, but I didn't know the exact address.
p2 is more of a lax support IMO. I've only used the curse set, the main thing it does is paralyze skarm/tank/cune/other non-ground curselax answers. I can see it doing well paired with surf+thunder lax. twave+ib seems like it has a hard time forcing things to get para'd but no experience with it.
Luna = Psychic/LK/Sub/ib jynx. I think borat called it a legend in his second guide, and since that's how I learned, I guess I just accepted it as fact.
Also, one more question: For the longest time I've thought of the standard rhydon being double stab + curseroar, with the rare ZC or HP bug, but I'm pretty sure there's more variation to be had, like lax. Should I be thinking of the standard set like double stabs + two of curse, roar, sub, ZC, maybe fb?
forgive me for sinning, but one of the few things that PO has over PS is the GSC analyses - jorgen wrote a ton of great gsc writeups in 2012-ish and they're available here: http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/page/2nd_Gen_Tiers
mostly every ou+bl mon has a writeup there that he made.
mostly every ou+bl mon has a writeup there that he made.
The quick and dirty on P2 as a paralysis machine is that it doesn't really have any hard counters and it hits just barely hard enough to 3HKO the Electrics, the most common Sleep Talkers, and somewhat threaten Snorlax. TWave Zapdos is really fucking good at paralyzing Raikou, for example, but Raikou hard counters Zapdos. If the opponent has Raikou, Zapdos is simply not going to paralyze anything else (besides maybe Snorlax) because the opponent can just go Raikou all day. You can't bring any particular mon into Porygon2 every single time, because it can kill <60% HP Snorlax and 3HKO Raikou and Zapdos and most other shit. You can bring in a random do-nothing bulkmon with Rest, perhaps, but at least it's free to go for Freeze in that case. i.e. Because P2 has no obvious counter you can switch into it ad nauseam, it probably ends up paralyzing multiple things depending on what you have healthy enough to take it on in the moment.
Rhydon I don't think has too many other attack options. Even HP Bug is pretty cheeky since it's pretty much only good for nailing Eggy on the switch since, unlike Marowak, Rhydon can't really stay in and take a hit from Grassers because of the 4x weakness (Eggy Giga Drain OHKOs, even literally Meganium does up to 97%) and its slower boosting (Meganium is OHKOed by Wak next turn if it switches into Swords Dance). Of all the stuff indirectly mentioned by Isa's link, personally I think the only good fifth move is Counter since it can bop Snorlax and fellow Ground-types in a pinch. The paralysis moves are kinda useful, and Zap Cannon hits some decent stuff super-effectively that makes the choice between it and Body Slam an interesting one (Cloyster, plus Skarm if you skip Curse), but that's it.
Curse is a nice standard because Rhydon's dual STABs are so strong. +1 Rhydon is slightly stronger than unboosted Marowak, which means its EQ 2HKOs literally everything not resistant, and STAB on the Rock Slide is a nice touch for punishing the rest slightly better than Marowak usually does, e.g. OHKOs Zapdos with a max damage roll. (Marowak does 53-63%.) You don't really need attack coverage, so what utility can you bring instead? Toxic beats Eggy just as well while easing early prediction since it's probably going to at least hit and annoy whatever the opponent switches in. Still, it's largely useful for precisely that one mon, and gives it room to Explode unlike outright KOing with HP Bug, so it's of rather questionable usefulness. Sub only really beats Umbreon, who is much less common than Eggy, but again mostly just eases prediction instead of doing something you otherwise couldn't. Roar is always a nice utility move to have somewhere on the team to prevent random Baton Pass bogus or Perish Trappers from beating you, to say nothing of the Spikes abuse and anti-boosting, counter-phazing uses as a Curse user.
Rhydon I don't think has too many other attack options. Even HP Bug is pretty cheeky since it's pretty much only good for nailing Eggy on the switch since, unlike Marowak, Rhydon can't really stay in and take a hit from Grassers because of the 4x weakness (Eggy Giga Drain OHKOs, even literally Meganium does up to 97%) and its slower boosting (Meganium is OHKOed by Wak next turn if it switches into Swords Dance). Of all the stuff indirectly mentioned by Isa's link, personally I think the only good fifth move is Counter since it can bop Snorlax and fellow Ground-types in a pinch. The paralysis moves are kinda useful, and Zap Cannon hits some decent stuff super-effectively that makes the choice between it and Body Slam an interesting one (Cloyster, plus Skarm if you skip Curse), but that's it.
Curse is a nice standard because Rhydon's dual STABs are so strong. +1 Rhydon is slightly stronger than unboosted Marowak, which means its EQ 2HKOs literally everything not resistant, and STAB on the Rock Slide is a nice touch for punishing the rest slightly better than Marowak usually does, e.g. OHKOs Zapdos with a max damage roll. (Marowak does 53-63%.) You don't really need attack coverage, so what utility can you bring instead? Toxic beats Eggy just as well while easing early prediction since it's probably going to at least hit and annoy whatever the opponent switches in. Still, it's largely useful for precisely that one mon, and gives it room to Explode unlike outright KOing with HP Bug, so it's of rather questionable usefulness. Sub only really beats Umbreon, who is much less common than Eggy, but again mostly just eases prediction instead of doing something you otherwise couldn't. Roar is always a nice utility move to have somewhere on the team to prevent random Baton Pass bogus or Perish Trappers from beating you, to say nothing of the Spikes abuse and anti-boosting, counter-phazing uses as a Curse user.
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Deleted User 108547
Banned deucer.
Hi guys, I have a question about DP and the new evasion clause. Years ago I remember play with evasion clause but it didn't include sand veil/snow cloak but now it seems to include both abilities under evasion clause so... does it mean that mons like Glaceon or Froslass, with just snow cloak as ability, are banned from the entire game?
Hi,
i have recently started to play some Pokémon again, specifically Pokémon XD.
I have decided to EV train some of my Pokémon without any external help from the other games.
Since i have not EV-trained for a while now, my knowledge is a little rusty concerning the topic.
I have two questions:
In double battles, if I k.o. one of my opponents Pokémon, do the EVs split up for my two Pokémon or does every one of my Pokémon get the full EVs?
E.g., i k.o. a Linoone, do the EVs split up and my two Pokémon get each 1 speed EV or do my Pokémon get both 2 Speed EVs.
If a Pokémon holds EXP. share and is not on the field, does it still get EVs? Do they split up like explained above?
Best regards,
Felix
i have recently started to play some Pokémon again, specifically Pokémon XD.
I have decided to EV train some of my Pokémon without any external help from the other games.
Since i have not EV-trained for a while now, my knowledge is a little rusty concerning the topic.
I have two questions:
In double battles, if I k.o. one of my opponents Pokémon, do the EVs split up for my two Pokémon or does every one of my Pokémon get the full EVs?
E.g., i k.o. a Linoone, do the EVs split up and my two Pokémon get each 1 speed EV or do my Pokémon get both 2 Speed EVs.
If a Pokémon holds EXP. share and is not on the field, does it still get EVs? Do they split up like explained above?
Best regards,
Felix
They are effectively banned from standard (OU) play yes; however, we are going to play with Sand Veil / Snow Cloak allowed in DPP NU in an upcoming tournament, and neither ability had much of an effect, if any, on UU so I assume they'd be allowed there. Ubers will also probably allow both but that remains to be seen.
To my knowledge EVs don't split up, every pokemon that gained experience in the battle receives the full amount.
Deleted User 108547
Banned deucer.
Thanks for reply buddy. Could you share a link with more info about this clause, or the discussion thread? I'm really disappointed on how this clause has been implemented and I want to know different points of view and some other arguments for and against.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sand-veil-in-dpp.3558511/
Here's the Policy Review thread that led to the ban. Hope that helps!
Deleted User 108547
Banned deucer.
Why blanket ban instead of saying that Pokemon with two abilities are required not to use Sand Veil/Snow Cloak? That solves the Gliscor problem without banning a bunch of other stuff.
That's exactly how it is. The point of those series of posts is that Glaceon and Froslass have no other abilities. You can't use Glaceon without Snow Cloak because they don't exist. You can't use Glaceon with Snow Cloak because Snow Cloak is banned. Therefore, you just can't use Glaceon. As for why the abilities and not the pokemon, mostly for consistency. The abilities fall into an existing rule instead of having to make up a new one, or changing mons' tiers, basic ruleset doesn't change between Gen 4 and Gen 5 now (where these mons have Hidden Abilities available so they're no longer effectively banned), etc.
I, for one, maintain they are sub-par abilities anyway and banning them is/was stupid. Does anyone actually believe Sand Veil is better than Sand Rush, Speed Boost, Huge Power and so on? Nobody chooses to use Garchomp or Froslass or Glaceon because they have these abilities, they're not gamebreakers by any stretch of the imagination. Banning them is like when Brightpowder was banned for a while, except arguably even worse because ability choices are far more restrictive than item choices. You're even nigh required to put a second pokemon on your team just to abuse these sub-par abilities because otherwise they literally do nothing! And at that point, the problem still isn't the evasion ability, it's that permaweather is fucking bullshit broken.
I, for one, maintain they are sub-par abilities anyway and banning them is/was stupid. Does anyone actually believe Sand Veil is better than Sand Rush, Speed Boost, Huge Power and so on? Nobody chooses to use Garchomp or Froslass or Glaceon because they have these abilities, they're not gamebreakers by any stretch of the imagination. Banning them is like when Brightpowder was banned for a while, except arguably even worse because ability choices are far more restrictive than item choices. You're even nigh required to put a second pokemon on your team just to abuse these sub-par abilities because otherwise they literally do nothing! And at that point, the problem still isn't the evasion ability, it's that permaweather is fucking bullshit broken.
In RBY, can Mimic copy a move that your Pokemon already knows (i.e. if Jynx used Mimic on another Jynx, could it learn Lovely Kiss a second time)? Reason I ask is because I had this crazy idea of Mimic on Exeggutor the other day, and it made be wonder if it might go to waste by copying Psychic or something.
I feel like I should know this, but I don't think I've ever actually used Mimic in a real match lol.
I feel like I should know this, but I don't think I've ever actually used Mimic in a real match lol.
Hey, I'm new, so hopefully I'm posting this in the right place! Happy to get involved in the world of competitive, but please excuse the poor formatting.
Background:
So my friend and I have been battling on RBY about once every 2 years or so for 6 years. Huge rivalry. He's the Gary to my Ash. I never played past Gen 2, but he has been playing competitively since SS and HG, so I decided that this time would be different. I looked up the tier lists, did some research, and came up with the best team I can have given the availability of TMs and whatnot. Also, we are battling at level 50 instead of the standard level 100.
We battled earlier in the week with 5 level 30s. He underestimated me, I did my research, and I beat him 5 out of 6 matches. He will be back with a vengeance, and I need to be prepared.
After beating the game, I have ended up with 7 Pokemon from which to choose, a few of which I haven't decided on their moveset. I figured this was the best place to go to ask for advice.
MY TEAM:
Kadabra
Psychic
Recover
Thunderwave
Reflect / Seismic Toss
Raichu
Thunderbolt
Thunder Wave
Submission
Mega Punch / ???
Graveler
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Explosion
???
Lapras
Ice Beam
Thunder
Body Slam
Confuse Ray
Victreebel
Razor Leaf
Swords Dance
Sleep Powder
Wrap / Hyper Beam
Tauros
Blizzard
Earthquake
Body Slam
Hyper Beam
Exeggutor
Psychic
Explosion
Sleep Powder
Stun Spore / Double Edge / Mega Drain
AVAILABLE TMs
Seismic Toss, Mimic, Fire Blast, Fissure, Submission, Mega Kick, Reflect, Hyper Beam, Counter, Tri Attack, Horn Drill, Double Team, Toxic, Take Down, Rest, Mega Drain, Double Edge, Mega Punch, Substitute, Surf
When we battled last, he had a Jolteon, Nidoking, Graveler, Machoke, and Gloom. I fully expect him to keep the Jolteon and have a Vileplume, and probably he'll keep the Graveler and Nidoking as well, but I'm not so sure about those. I know he likes Gengar, so Haunter might be his #5. Not sure about his last one. Could be the Machoke, could be something else. I'm potentially predicting a Dragonite as well. Finally, since this is level 50, he won't be using the legendary birds.
QUESTIONS:
Which of these do I choose as my starting 6?
What moves do I pick where indicated uncertainty?
What strategies do I need to use when considering battling with this team?
Thank you all so much! I have enjoyed looking at this community, and hopefully I can enjoy being a part of it as well.
Background:
So my friend and I have been battling on RBY about once every 2 years or so for 6 years. Huge rivalry. He's the Gary to my Ash. I never played past Gen 2, but he has been playing competitively since SS and HG, so I decided that this time would be different. I looked up the tier lists, did some research, and came up with the best team I can have given the availability of TMs and whatnot. Also, we are battling at level 50 instead of the standard level 100.
We battled earlier in the week with 5 level 30s. He underestimated me, I did my research, and I beat him 5 out of 6 matches. He will be back with a vengeance, and I need to be prepared.
After beating the game, I have ended up with 7 Pokemon from which to choose, a few of which I haven't decided on their moveset. I figured this was the best place to go to ask for advice.
MY TEAM:
Kadabra
Psychic
Recover
Thunderwave
Reflect / Seismic Toss
Raichu
Thunderbolt
Thunder Wave
Submission
Mega Punch / ???
Graveler
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Explosion
???
Lapras
Ice Beam
Thunder
Body Slam
Confuse Ray
Victreebel
Razor Leaf
Swords Dance
Sleep Powder
Wrap / Hyper Beam
Tauros
Blizzard
Earthquake
Body Slam
Hyper Beam
Exeggutor
Psychic
Explosion
Sleep Powder
Stun Spore / Double Edge / Mega Drain
AVAILABLE TMs
Seismic Toss, Mimic, Fire Blast, Fissure, Submission, Mega Kick, Reflect, Hyper Beam, Counter, Tri Attack, Horn Drill, Double Team, Toxic, Take Down, Rest, Mega Drain, Double Edge, Mega Punch, Substitute, Surf
When we battled last, he had a Jolteon, Nidoking, Graveler, Machoke, and Gloom. I fully expect him to keep the Jolteon and have a Vileplume, and probably he'll keep the Graveler and Nidoking as well, but I'm not so sure about those. I know he likes Gengar, so Haunter might be his #5. Not sure about his last one. Could be the Machoke, could be something else. I'm potentially predicting a Dragonite as well. Finally, since this is level 50, he won't be using the legendary birds.
QUESTIONS:
Which of these do I choose as my starting 6?
What moves do I pick where indicated uncertainty?
What strategies do I need to use when considering battling with this team?
Thank you all so much! I have enjoyed looking at this community, and hopefully I can enjoy being a part of it as well.
Sounds cool. Are those 7 definitely the only ones you'd consider? Zam, Egg, Tauros, Graveler (maybe offer to swap back and forth with your friend so you can both have Golem?), and Lapras all look like good picks. Running Egg and Vic on the same team would be weird, but I like Vic more than Raichu (especially since you don't have the Surf event one.)Hey, I'm new, so hopefully I'm posting this in the right place! Happy to get involved in the world of competitive, but please excuse the poor formatting.
Background:
So my friend and I have been battling on RBY about once every 2 years or so for 6 years. Huge rivalry. He's the Gary to my Ash. I never played past Gen 2, but he has been playing competitively since SS and HG, so I decided that this time would be different. I looked up the tier lists, did some research, and came up with the best team I can have given the availability of TMs and whatnot. Also, we are battling at level 50 instead of the standard level 100.
We battled earlier in the week with 5 level 30s. He underestimated me, I did my research, and I beat him 5 out of 6 matches. He will be back with a vengeance, and I need to be prepared.
After beating the game, I have ended up with 7 Pokemon from which to choose, a few of which I haven't decided on their moveset. I figured this was the best place to go to ask for advice.
MY TEAM:
Kadabra
Psychic
Recover
Thunderwave
Reflect / Seismic Toss
Raichu
Thunderbolt
Thunder Wave
Submission
Mega Punch / ???
Graveler
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Explosion
???
Lapras
Ice Beam
Thunder
Body Slam
Confuse Ray
Victreebel
Razor Leaf
Swords Dance
Sleep Powder
Wrap / Hyper Beam
Tauros
Blizzard
Earthquake
Body Slam
Hyper Beam
Exeggutor
Psychic
Explosion
Sleep Powder
Stun Spore / Double Edge / Mega Drain
AVAILABLE TMs
Seismic Toss, Mimic, Fire Blast, Fissure, Submission, Mega Kick, Reflect, Hyper Beam, Counter, Tri Attack, Horn Drill, Double Team, Toxic, Take Down, Rest, Mega Drain, Double Edge, Mega Punch, Substitute, Surf
When we battled last, he had a Jolteon, Nidoking, Graveler, Machoke, and Gloom. I fully expect him to keep the Jolteon and have a Vileplume, and probably he'll keep the Graveler and Nidoking as well, but I'm not so sure about those. I know he likes Gengar, so Haunter might be his #5. Not sure about his last one. Could be the Machoke, could be something else. I'm potentially predicting a Dragonite as well. Finally, since this is level 50, he won't be using the legendary birds.
QUESTIONS:
Which of these do I choose as my starting 6?
What moves do I pick where indicated uncertainty?
What strategies do I need to use when considering battling with this team?
Thank you all so much! I have enjoyed looking at this community, and hopefully I can enjoy being a part of it as well.
Vic should be using H-Beam over Wrap if it's running SD. Stun Spore's good on Egg if you aren't running Rai. Grav won't be using much else besides the listed moves, though you could use Substitute to scout his switch-in. Just keep in mind it won't block his Gloom's Sleep Powder or Stun Spore. Zam is your best pick for lead, so I'd probably go with SToss on it.
Hope that helps a bit. Good luck, and welcome to Smogon ^.^
Thanks for the excellent advice!
I benched Rai and followed your move suggestions.
Just a few follow up questions.
First of all, yeah, I am open to the idea of other pokemon, but as you can see, I'm very limited in my TMs. For example, kadabra got my twave, so I couldn't teach it to a chansey, lax or starmie. If there's a mon I can grab and supplement with the TMs listed above, I'm all for it.
Now, from the strategy standpoint, I have a few questions to which I can't find an answer. If you could direct me to a guide, that works, too.
When do I use sleep vs paralyze with egg?
When is it safe to use SD with vic? When do I swap him in?
Do I always lead with confuse ray and twave on lapras and Kadabra?
When is Seismic Toss optimal?
When do I use my explosions?
Where do I use all the Iron, PP ups, etc?
I know it's a lot. Just answer what you can or point me in the right direction. Thanks!
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Yeah, you can't really make an ideal Lax set with that, but he's flexible enough that you could come up with something that works. Amnesia / Double-Edge / Surf / Rest could make a decent setup mon. You could also try something like DE / Surf / Rest / Reflect for a more durable set. Even something like DE / HBeam / Surf / Counter could be fun if going all-out offensive.
You'll generally want to sleep something asap, as paralysis blocks sleep. After that, you're free to fire off Stun Spores at whatever. If you aren't playing with Sleep Clause, you can put as much to sleep as possible, but then you'd be better off with more, faster sleepers.
SD Vic needs to be saved for late-game, but I'd replace it with Lax if that's an option. You generally want anything faster to be paralyzed when you set up with it, as it's not too hard to take out. It's best switching in after something slower than it KOes one of your mons, as then it can Sleep Powder it or just SD on the predicted switch without having taken damage prior.
TWave is usually a safe early move with Kadabra (If you can trade that and get a Zam, definitely go for it, as the Speed difference alone is huge.) Just remember that once your opponent has a statused Pokemon, they can keep switching it in against predicted TWaves to shift momentum in their favor. You can do the same, on that note, and Kadabra makes for a great status sponge. As for Confuse Ray, it works well against paralyzed Pokemon, as they're only successfully attacking about 3/8 of the time at that point. It's also a good move for forcing switches / praying for luck, but don't overly rely on luck if you have more reliable ways of winning.
SToss is better for hitting other Psychic-types, while Reflect is handy for surviving physical hits. Generally the former is more important in the very early-game, which is where you'll be using Kadabra if you lead with it. Once things are asleep and mid-game is rolling, it's more of a personal or team preference type of thing.
We're playing without any clauses. This is just man-to-man deathmatch where I'm trying to get as much of an upper hand as possible. Does this mean I should get more faster sleepers on my team? I already missed the opportunity to get Sing on Lapras, but I can load a previous state and grind back up where she keeps sing, or maybe catch... something else?
I did catch a Lax on the off chance that someone on here told me that Lax was a necessity for a team. In considering adding him in place of Vic, without going back to the previous save, here's where my team currently stands
Psychic
Recover
Thunder Wave
Seismic Toss
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Explosion
???
Ice Beam
Thunder
Body Slam
Confuse Ray
Blizzard
Earthquake
Body Slam
Hyper Beam
Psychic
Explosion
Sleep Powder
Stun Spore
__________
Razor Leaf
Swords Dance
Sleep Powder
Hyper Beam
OR
???
Available Options for Lax:
Body Slam / Rest / Amnesia / Double-Edge / Hyper Beam / Reflect / Surf / Fire Blast / Fissure / Rage / Counter / Submission
What's your suggestion?
No clauses is a pretty big game-changer, since you could bring multiples of a Pokemon if you wanted to, though that probably isn't the case given TM restrictions. You can drop Stun Spore for Mega Drain on Egg if you're expecting him to bring Grav again, as sleep is generally the better status and you have other ways of paralyzing things.We're playing without any clauses. This is just man-to-man deathmatch where I'm trying to get as much of an upper hand as possible. Does this mean I should get more faster sleepers on my team? I already missed the opportunity to get Sing on Lapras, but I can load a previous state and grind back up where she keeps sing, or maybe catch... something else?
I did catch a Lax on the off chance that someone on here told me that Lax was a necessity for a team. In considering adding him in place of Vic, without going back to the previous save, here's where my team currently stands
Psychic
Recover
Thunder Wave
Seismic Toss
Earthquake
Rock Slide
Explosion
???
Ice Beam
Thunder
Body Slam
Confuse Ray
Blizzard
Earthquake
Body Slam
Hyper Beam
Psychic
Explosion
Sleep Powder
Stun Spore
__________
Razor Leaf
Swords Dance
Sleep Powder
Hyper Beam
OR
???
Available Options for Lax:
Body Slam / Rest / Amnesia / Double-Edge / Hyper Beam / Reflect / Surf / Fire Blast / Fissure / Rage / Counter / Submission
What's your suggestion?
If Lax can learn Body Slam still, then use that over DE in any of my suggestions. BS / Surf / HBeam / Counter is kinda nifty for an offensive set; too bad no EQ, but hopefully your opponent doesn't pack Haunter.
Grav's best bet for last slot is probably Sub. You won't really be using that last move much most likely, but at least that could have some utility.
Hypno gets a bit more interesting without sleep clause, especially with how Psychic-weak your opponent's team was last time. It could go over Lapras or Grav if you want to abuse sleep a bit more. Set would probably be Psychic / Hypnosis / Counter / Rest, since you don't have TWave as a TM anymore. This could also function as a lead, or even replace Kadabra, but there's no harm in running 3 Psychic-types either way. It's just another potentially good Pokemon to consider for this situation, but I think what you have above (with those set tweaks) should be solid regardless.