Auto weather poll

[Adamant Zoroark]

I don't understand how some people can be saying that weather limits diversity, have you looked at OU lately? The OU tier is the biggest that it ever has been with over 50 pokemon. If you say OU is stagnate and boring you are not looking at the facts.

If you say statism is a good idea you are not looking at the facts

DPP OU = 48 OU Pokemon
BW OU = 52 OU Pokemon

Oh. My. Fucking. GOD. So many more Pokemon! FOUR MORE POKEMON IN OU is so fucking much! -_-

Also, number of Pokemon in OU doesn't mean anything. You're more likely to run into the top Pokemon while everything else is pretty much entirely obscure. Hell, "OverUsed" isn't even a politically correct term anymore since you don't even run into a large number of OU Pokemon frequently due to how people are just using shit like Toed + Tenta + Torn + Ferro, etc. teams. "Pokemon Used More than UU Pokemon" would be a little more politically correct, albeit really stupid-sounding. It doesn't matter if more Pokemon are viable, everyone is using the shit like the weather starters and weather sweepers that you don't have any reason not to use.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

IMHO: I believe rain is in fact semi-broken. Or at least has too strong effect on the meta. Whether you're surfing on the wave, or focusing an entire team on trying to hold it back.

Why? Let's look at the facts behind it.

• Never before had previous gen analyses included (maximize SpDef to be 2HKO'd by rain boosted Keldeo's Hydro pump)
• Even after the banning of SS, we are still getting complaints about it being OP. We haven't even banned the Speed Boost abilities for the other perma-weather, and if we did, I'm sure we'd get complaints about them not even being viable.
• Moves like Thunder and Hurricane are to powerful to be 100 percent accurate for an entirety of a match. That's it.
• Having to carry Max SpD water Pokemon and at times even two scarfers to combat a Rain Team is kinda where we crossed the line.
• Having to bring your own weather to the field to sort of counter the other team's effectiveness.

These are all arguably anecdotal evidences. But there's a strong truth behind them. These complaints aren't from people using the cookie-cutter teams. Its from those who are trying to make weather-less teams and can't help but notice the immense power creep given by weather; most noticeably but not limited to: RAIN.

Tl;dr: Teambuilding has become vague. Rain is too strong, imo, and many others.

Your other points are good, but I disagree with your last point, because I remember some people used to do that in Generation IV UU, when for a while rain teams were popular.

 

[Tressed]

If you say statism is a good idea you are not looking at the facts

DPP OU = 48 OU Pokemon
BW OU = 52 OU Pokemon

Oh. My. Fucking. GOD. So many more Pokemon! FOUR MORE POKEMON IN OU is so fucking much! -_-

Also, number of Pokemon in OU doesn't mean anything. You're more likely to run into the top Pokemon while everything else is pretty much entirely obscure. Hell, "OverUsed" isn't even a politically correct term anymore since you don't even run into a large number of OU Pokemon frequently due to how people are just using shit like Toed + Tenta + Torn + Ferro, etc. teams. It doesn't matter if more Pokemon are viable, everyone is using the shit like the weather starters and weather sweepers that you don't have any reason not to use.

Also, those 52 Pokémon include stuff like Metagross and Infernape, which are only there because people insist on using them. It would be much better to look at the number of viable/good Pokémon in OU rather than the ones that are classified as such by usage.

Something else that crossed my mind is this. When I go on PS!, I try to go weatherless. Now I consider myself a half-decent player; I might not make the right choices or read my opponents correctly, but I do, for the most part, battle intelligently. However, when I find myself facing rain teams, I will most likely be fighting an uphill battle, and I will most likely lose unless I play near perfectly, while my opponent is okay to go and make basic plays and remain ahead in the battle.

All that to say that when it comes time to do suspect tests, I haven't been able to participate in them because of this. I can put time into building a team, but once I run into a rain team, my points are most likely going to drop, and thus I can't make requirements to put in my two cents. Its rather annoying to have to face the thing that you believe is overpowered in order to tell people its overpowered, y'know? Maybe I'm just bad and this whole rant would be baseless if I was better, idk.

 

[MeteorMiss]

So, this poll obviously isn't official, but I have a have a question for a mod or anyone else involved in the tiering process.

It's been almost a month since the suspect test ended for Tornadus-T and Keldeo. There are mixed opinions on whether Drizzle is broken, but wouldn't it at least be worth suspecting it in order to tell whether top-ranked players think it is? There's no harm in actually gaining an official opinion, rather than waving it off as unsuspectable. I personally don't think it's broken, but we literally could have completed an entire suspect test in the time since the last one.

We don't have much longer until X and Y come out and everyone stops playing this metagame. Let's try to make it as good as we can before that point. I think that our suspect process is too slow, and for this reason we don't suspect what we should. (Seriously, we've been playing with drizzle for two years, and six months since BW2 came out. We don't need another month to determine whether it's broken.) Why can't we, say, just let the top few members of the current ladder decide, without setting up a specific suspect ladder? If the suspect ladder contains the same metagame as the normal ou ladder, there's really no reason to spend a month to set it up and play on it.

 

[MJB]

Also, those 52 Pokémon include stuff like Metagross and Infernape, which are only there because people insist on using them. It would be much better to look at the number of viable/good Pokémon in OU rather than the ones that are classified as such by usage.

Something else that crossed my mind is this. When I go on PS!, I try to go weatherless. Now I consider myself a half-decent player; I might not make the right choices or read my opponents correctly, but I do, for the most part, battle intelligently. However, when I find myself facing rain teams, I will most likely be fighting an uphill battle, and I will most likely lose unless I play near perfectly, while my opponent is okay to go and make basic plays and remain ahead in the battle.

All that to say that when it comes time to do suspect tests, I haven't been able to participate in them because of this. I can put time into building a team, but once I run into a rain team, my points are most likely going to drop, and thus I can't make requirements to put in my two cents. Its rather annoying to have to face the thing that you believe is overpowered in order to tell people its overpowered, y'know? Maybe I'm just bad and this whole rant would be baseless if I was better, idk.

I use mostly weatherless teams and dont find this the issue at all tbh. I actually find rain a lot easier then sand or sun (hail is so rarely seen I cant really say) as rain is so much more obvious. I dont try to counter rain (i dont use swift swimmers or anything) but I just dont find rain difficult to deal with at all, though it is annoyingly common.

Imo, no weather is too strong, as I said I use mostly weatherless and to well enough and don't struggle with any particular weather and am finding this with multiple teams, not just 1 team that got lucky.

 

[Huntofthelion]

So, this poll obviously isn't official, but I have a have a question for a mod or anyone else involved in the tiering process.

It's been almost a month since the suspect test ended for Tornadus-T and Keldeo. There are mixed opinions on whether Drizzle is broken, but wouldn't it at least be worth suspecting it in order to tell whether top-ranked players think it is? There's no harm in actually gaining an official opinion, rather than waving it off as unsuspectable. I personally don't think it's broken, but we literally could have completed an entire suspect test in the time since the last one.

We don't have much longer until X and Y come out and everyone stops playing this metagame. Let's try to make it as good as we can before that point. I think that our suspect process is too slow, and for this reason we don't suspect what we should. (Seriously, we've been playing with drizzle for two years, and six months since BW2 came out. We don't need another month to determine whether it's broken.) Why can't we, say, just let the top few members of the current ladder decide, without setting up a specific suspect ladder? If the suspect ladder contains the same metagame as the normal ou ladder, there's really no reason to spend a month to set it up and play on it.

I am not directly involved in the final decisions of the tiering process but I think I can answer several of your questions. Suspect testing is done with the end goal if improving the metagame, and some members of the community feel that banning drizzle will not have that effect. This is why things that function as drizzle abusers, such as Tornadus-t, Keldeo, and the swift swim + drizzle combination, have been tested/banned. Reducing the power of rain teams by removing some of their fire power has, at least up to now, been seen as a better alternative than just banning drizzle.

The reason we can't just say,"everyone at the top of the ou ladder gets a vote" or something similar is that that would deprive people of the chance to attain the required rating to vote. A lot of players don't really like this metagame so they don't play it, but if given a chance to impact the tiering of drizzle (or another suspect) they would do what it takes to earn the right to vote. Similarly if we just allowed "the higher ups" or current tiering contributors to vote we would be cutting off people who aren't in those positions but still might be qualified to vote and able to prove it if given a rating to achieve or something in that vein.

Lastly the wait between suspects is done to give the metagame a chance to stabilize a little bit so that we can tell what is a possible suspect in the new metagame we have created. The emphasis here is on getting it right, not meeting a deadline. Also BW2 will be a major metagame for the foreseeable future as it will likely be given the same treatment that DPP was; included in SPL and Tour for the future. If those in charge want to continue suspect testing after gen 6 is released there will still probably be people willing to contribute to that process.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I think that our suspect process is too slow

I agree. I do think the suspect process is good, and I'm happy with how it is personally, but I think it would be good if they could work out a quicker process, at least for the start of Gen VI, because the main reason why so many pepole wanted to auto-ban a dozen Pokemon at the start of Gen V was because they thought it would take too long to do it the "correct" way (which is fair enough, although not ideal imo).

 

[pharaohcalvin]

As far as the poll goes: I voted Ban Drizzle. It is quite clear how broken it is by the lengths we have gone to keep in in the meta. Now to why I didn't go with ban all the weathers is because I would like to give them a chance in the drizzle-less meta first. Who knows, they might not be broken.

 

[Pocket]

My thought process behind my choice is simple.

We all agree that the Rain weather archetype is overpowered in some way. What makes it difficult is that Rain archetype is composed of two components: Politoed + Abusers. Neither component is broken without the other. So the big question is obviously which component to remove?

When it is unclear which Pokemon is broken, I always go for the one that provides the least disruptive approach that keeps the former BW2 metagame intact. This is to protect the diversity of the metagame, because a major disruptive force to the metagame can lead to an imbalanced metagame and a string of more bans (aka cutting down on the metagame's diversity). I think people fail to realize that banning a Pokemon cuts down on the meta diversity / options available to us, so bans should be a last-resort measure (not simply for convenience).

So keeping what I just said in mind, when I examine Drizzle, I weigh the pro / cons of banning Drizzle versus abusers at a metagame level. Which metagame would be more diverse and balanced, a metagame with Manaphy, Thundurus-I, and Tornadus-T, but no Drizzle; or a metagame without those 3 abusers but with Drizzle. IMO, the loss of 3 abusers is much better for BW OU's diversity and balance than losing Rain entirely. By losing Rain, we have just nerfed countless perfectly non-broken Rain users for the sake of 3 abusers (Toxicroak, Azumarill, Feraligatr, Gyarados, Starmie, Jirachi, Tentacruel, Tornadus, Kingdra, just to name a few). Not to mention that banning OP Rain abusers only affect a particular archetype, while banning Rain would affect this game at the metagame-level. With Rain gone, prepare for the current homeostasis of weathers to crumble and further need to nerf / remove weather.

Of course there is a situation where we ban way too many abusers to the point that it's not worth preserving the Rain archetype anymore (cuz the playstyle is as good as dead now), but 3 abusers for the sake of literally 20+ Pokemon that benefit from Rain doesn't seem like the breaking point for me.

A lot of anti-Rain people want Rain gone so that weatherless team can perform better. However, weatherless is perfectly fine, despite what they claim. There are plenty of functional weatherless non Deo-D teams that top players like Taylor have been using with good success. Weatherless teams do not need anything banned to remain viable, cuz they are perfectly functional in the current meta (and has been for the entirety of BW).

 

[Chou Toshio]

One thing I can say, looking at BW compared to DPP, a lot more UU Pokemon are legit in OU. Slowbro? Kingdra? Zapdos, Bronzong, Amoongus, Sableye, Xatu, Ditto, Victini, Sandslash... I'm just saying, that you do see these Pokemon (and many other lower tier pokes) in OU and performing well. For those of you who didn't play DPP, you have no idea. You would NEVER see a UU Poke in OU-- they didn't even really have niches. Kinda, sorta did, but it was a really stretch. If you are only talking about the number of viable Pokemon, BW far outclasses DPP, and probably all the other gens as well.

I mean, if you want to play a gen with REAL centralization, play RBY.

 

[bobbyvaporeon]

Trust me, getting rid of auto-weather would force half of the OU battlers to change their teams completely. i just think it would alter the metagame too much too fast, with mons like toxicroak, venasaur, and walrein falling rapidly down the rankings. i like auto-weather. ita not like they gave drizzle to a powerhouse like gyarados or something. the metagame is fine with weather.

 

[Barilzar]

My thought process behind my choice is simple.

We all agree that the Rain weather archetype is overpowered in some way. What makes it difficult is that Rain archetype is composed of two components: Politoed + Abusers. Neither component is broken without the other. So the big question is obviously which component to remove?

When it is unclear which Pokemon is broken, I always go for the one that provides the least disruptive approach that keeps the former BW2 metagame intact. This is to protect the diversity of the metagame, because a major disruptive force to the metagame can lead to an imbalanced metagame and a string of more bans (aka cutting down on the metagame's diversity). I think people fail to realize that banning a Pokemon cuts down on the meta diversity / options available to us, so bans should be a last-resort measure (not simply for convenience).

So keeping what I just said in mind, when I examine Drizzle, I weigh the pro / cons of banning Drizzle versus abusers at a metagame level. Which metagame would be more diverse and balanced, a metagame with Manaphy, Thundurus-I, and Tornadus-T, but no Drizzle; or a metagame without those 3 abusers but with Drizzle. IMO, the loss of 3 abusers is much better for BW OU's diversity and balance than losing Rain entirely. By losing Rain, we have just nerfed countless perfectly non-broken Rain users for the sake of 3 abusers (Toxicroak, Azumarill, Feraligatr, Gyarados, Starmie, Jirachi, Tentacruel, Tornadus, Kingdra, just to name a few). Not to mention that banning OP Rain abusers only affect a particular archetype, while banning Rain would affect this game at the metagame-level. With Rain gone, prepare for the current homeostasis of weathers to crumble and further need to nerf / remove weather.

Of course there is a situation where we ban way too many abusers to the point that it's not worth preserving the Rain archetype anymore (cuz the playstyle is as good as dead now), but 3 abusers for the sake of literally 20+ Pokemon that benefit from Rain doesn't seem like the breaking point for me.

A lot of anti-Rain people want Rain gone so that weatherless team can perform better. However, weatherless is perfectly fine, despite what they claim. There are plenty of functional weatherless non Deo-D teams that top players like Taylor have been using with good success. Weatherless teams do not need anything banned to remain viable, cuz they are perfectly functional in the current meta (and has been for the entirety of BW).

I agree with some of this. The issue of rain and sun to a slight less extent is that they provide way too many benefits with plenty of pokemon to abuse those benefits. I don't think banning drizzle will make the meta better, but drizzle staying leaves the meta extremely stale. The only real solution is a complete restructuring of rain, but given Gamefreaks track record, thats not going to happen. Ever.

But saying so much variety exists in this meta is a joke. B/W killed a lot of things. Lead pokemon for one. But beyond that so many playstyle no longer exist or barely exist at all. Batan Pass, Gravity, Trick Room based teams, as well Stall (Hail stall, toxic stall, ...)

While typing this, I just faced the same rain team 4 times in a row.

Edit: Forgot that Explosion got murdered too.

 

[FallenFoliage]

Your other points are good, but I disagree with your last point, because I remember some people used to do that in Generation IV UU, when for a while rain teams were popular.

Just because something was used before doesn't mean it makes it any less troublesome. Weather teams in OU IV were never a problem, really. I fail to see how your reference holds any relevance though.

Maybe because this is a perma-weather debate focused mainly on perma-Rain?

 

[Chou Toshio]

One thing I can say, looking at BW compared to DPP, a lot more UU Pokemon are legit in OU.

Just to illustrate this as a function of diversity of BW's metagame (BW is a LOT more diverse than DPP), by looking at the use of UU Pokemon:

DPP UU Pokemon in OU:

Legitimate Threats:
Tangrowth (being really generous)

Has a niche:
Claydol
Donphan
Hitmontop
Dugtrio
Lanturn
Slowbro (Machamp Counter)
Spiritomb

Sort-of-could-do-something-in-OU:
Alakazam
Azumarril
Clefable
Chansey (Completely Outclassed)
Kabutops
Mesprit
Milotic (Completely Outclassed)
Rhyperior
Venusaur
Weezing (Gyara / Heracross counter)

This is being pretty damn generous. As you can see, there's basically NO UU Pokemon that are legitimate threats in DPP OU, and the OU list is even shorter than BW's. MOST of the "Has a Niche" level Pokes really belong in the bottom category in terms of actual performance in battle.


Now, we look at BW UU (and lower) Pokes in OU:

Legitimate Threats:
Amoongus
Bronzong
Ditto
Kingdra
Mew
Roserade
Sableye
Slowbro
Stoutland
Victini
Xatu

Has a niche:
Aerodactyle
Abomasnow
Azelf
Azumarril
Darmanitan
Heracross
Hitmontop
Porygon2
Quagsire
Sandslash
Snorlax
Virizion
Weavile
Zapdos

Sort-of-could-do-something-in-OU:
Chandelure
Cobalion
Cofagrigus
Froslass
Gorebyss
Lanturn
Lilligant
Machamp (Completely Outclassed)
Mienshao
Raikou
Rotom-H
Scrafty
Sharpedo
Swampert
Tornadus
Victrebel (Mostly Outclassed by Venusaur)
Zoroark


I'm not even sure if this above list is complete! Actually, I'm sure I'm missing a bunch. Not to mention that a number of those "legitimate threats" aren't even UU! They're RU/NU. That is tremendously different from DPP. Yeah, weather may be dominant, but no one can say that BW's OU isn't the most diverse OU up to date, and by a huge margin.

 

[PK Gaming]

One thing I can say, looking at BW compared to DPP, a lot more UU Pokemon are legit in OU. Slowbro? Kingdra? Zapdos, Bronzong, Amoongus, Sableye, Xatu, Ditto, Victini, Sandslash... I'm just saying, that you do see these Pokemon (and many other lower tier pokes) in OU and performing well. For those of you who didn't play DPP, you have no idea. You would NEVER see a UU Poke in OU-- they didn't even really have niches. Kinda, sorta did, but it was a really stretch. If you are only talking about the number of viable Pokemon, BW far outclasses DPP, and probably all the other gens as well.

I mean, if you want to play a gen with REAL centralization, play RBY.

Yeah I agree with you 100%, it's part of the reason why I really like BW.

I think with Drizzle gone, that list can grow even larger.

(Note: not that i'm saying I want it gone, just pointing out an observation)

 

[NoUserName]

@ Chou Toshio, you forgotten to count BL pokes.

And Quagsire in BW.

 

[Chou Toshio]

@PK--I'm actually not sure of that. A lot of these pokes have niches because of weather, or because of the metagame built around weather. In a pure battle of stats/typing/movepool/ability un-skewed by weather, I actually think a lot of pokes (both currently in OU, and lower tier pokes with OU niches) would fall through the cracks.

@NoUserName--ok, added quagsire. Sorry, I don't feel like going back and adding in all the BL's right now, but I'm sure they would pronounce the difference between the two even more. BL Pokes in DPP are pretty much crap in OU, where as BL pokes in BW are all pretty legit.

 

[Schpoonman]

Toshio you are straight-the-fuck-up twisting words. What did P2 get in BW that suddenly transformed him from a complete non-entity to a viable threat? Did Reckless completely turn Staraptor around from a waste of a team slot? Am I out of my fucking mind or did Azumarill not have Huge Power in Gen IV?

You listed Pokémon that were viable threats in Gen IV as though they suddenly turned around in Gen V, purely to push a claim. This is misdirection of the highest caliber and I cannot believe a poster as experienced and respected as yourself actually did this. I'm not exactly disagreeing with you (of course more Pokémon outside the tier are going to be viable, we expanded the Pokédex by 150 Pokémon and the tier by 4, with many, many threats that were not OU for various reasons [were Uber, are new Pokémon, etc.] taking spots), but you are obfuscating and misrepresenting when the truth of the matter is much less kind.

And for the third time I've said this, all this diversity and viability is pointless as the vast, vast majority of players will ignore these by-all-standards good Pokémon in favor of the same overpowered bullshit that's plaguing the metagame.

Hide

For the record, I originally had Heracross in this post instead of P2 when I realized that I have never seen a Heracross in OU in BW. Strictly speaking, I shouldn't list P2 either, because I have never seen one of them in OU since the generation shift, but it's more viable and less completely outclassed than Heracross is.

 

[Bent1ey]

@PK--I'm actually not sure of that. A lot of these pokes have niches because of weather, or because of the metagame built around weather. In a pure battle of stats/typing/movepool/ability un-skewed by weather, I actually think a lot of pokes (both currently in OU, and lower tier pokes with OU niches) would fall through the cracks.

One of the reasons I'd like to see Drizzle banned is to test the limits of this argument. I mean, sure, nobody will pick Altaria over Dragonite if there is no weather involved, but is that really a bad thing for the metagame? Are those weather-niche pokemon really pulling their weight to justify the broken metagame that is currently happening? I do not really thing that the meta is exclusively broken because of weather, but arguably weather is not helping to achieve balance, specifically by boosting types x1.5 so even the bulkiest special walls cannot take them.

Bringing some variety by the means of a broken meta is hardly a perfect choice, but it's an element important enough for us to actually see where it leads by actual proof and not simple speculation from both sides. When a side is arguing using conservative evaluations such as "there is too little time to change the meta" or "everyone would need to tweak their teams", I think the quality of the conversation really drops. Big metagame changes are part of the game, people could be excited for this right? It's a great opportunity of testing new treats even if you end up being proved wrong. That's also part of the game, and the knowledge may come into play in the next Gen, so there is also quite a lot to win imo.

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

By losing Rain, we have just nerfed countless perfectly non-broken Rain users for the sake of 3 abusers (Toxicroak, Azumarill, Feraligatr, Gyarados, Starmie, Jirachi, Tentacruel, Tornadus, Kingdra, just to name a few).

Whilst you did have a solid argument, the facts you used to back your arguement are very very shaky...

Toxicroak is on the cusp of OU, azumarill, feraligatr and kingdra are not OU, starmie will almost certainly be OU without drizzle thanks to its important niche.

Jirachi will most certainly remain OU, and the ironic thing is she will simply be LESS common then she is now.. hardly a bad thing considering she is consistently top 15.

Only Gyarados, Tentacruel and Tornadus are left as OU viable pokemon you mentioned due to rain (and Gyarados could potentially remain OU). We can also argue for what its worth that Tentacruel does have rapid spin and may be relegated to the cusp of OU as toxicroak is now.

Now, lets take a peak at all the pokemon waiting at the top of UU, so close to being viable in OU, somewhat (or obviously) restricted by rain...

-Darmanitan <- major stab is nerfed in rain, protect on 2 major rain threats, easily checked by every rain team
-Chandelure <- major stab is nerfed in rain, fails to drop pokemon like tentacruel
-Heracross (can't take boosted scalds/water attacks, tentacruel walls etc)
-Mienshao (can only be so useful in a meta where protect politoed and tentacruel, Dry skin toxicroak fear nothing, boosted scalds) <- does not threaten rain teams
-Victini <-struggles to make an impact in rain
-Mew (without rain, fighting types increase, and hence their counters)
-Machamp (hates rain teams as they have MANY answers)

edit: bolded former "OU" pokemon (in OU for more than a "few" months) that have been knocked out of OU due to the popularity of rain

Keep in mind before the surge in popularity of rain well after the initial Kingdra + Poli nerf, pokemon such as Conkeldurr, Reuniclus, Machamp, Mienshao were part of the group of pokemon defining OU, Gliscor is slipping of the usage stats as now Terrakion is checked by Landorus-T (which the aforementioned fight types beat much more easily than Gliscor), we are witnessing metagross and infernape's fall from grace. ETC

 

[Chou Toshio]

Lord of Bays-- *Raise an Eyebrow*

It doesn't matter that Pokemon that were great in Gen 4 got pushed down-- we have a bigger OU than before, AND we have a lot of lower tier Pokemon that are real threats.

Also, what you're saying about players ignoring them is purely false. Especially the Pokemon I noted as "legitimate threats"-- Kingdra, Bronzong, Xatu, Victini, Amoongus-- these are low-tier Pokemon that see use by top-tier players. You can go on our youtube channel and see a battle in the finals of the World Cup of Pokemon where Sableye features on both teams.

Or, you can go to the OU Viability Thread, a thread headed up and compiled by respected members/battlers and agreed upon by much of the OU community, lists many of the Pokemon I mentioned as B Rank-- right alongside standards like Gliscor, Jellicent, Volcarona, and Mamoswine. People know which Pokemon are effective, and in BW this includes more non-OU lower tier Pokes IN ADDITION to a bigger OU than in any generation to date.

Of course you expect more diversity with 150 new pokes, but that's not the whole story. BW absolutely tramples on the expectations of diversity set by DPPt-- not by a trivial margin. In DPPt, practically nothing in UU was worth toying with. In BW, top-tier players rank lower-tier pokes alongside top-30 usage threats as having the same threat level. That's huge.

 

[BKC]

,

you should take a look at the first sentence and then the second irc conversation i edited into this post http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4557039&postcount=2770

 

[Ojama]

Here is my opinion about Drizzle

It's a fact that Drizzle centralizes the Metagame and can be seen as a broken weather due to the fact that it raises water moves power and weakens fire moves power. Keldeo, Tornadus-I, Ferrothorn, Gyarados, Toxicroak, Thundurus-T, etc etc. I do agree that it's always pretty hard to handle those stupid (specs?) Hydropump in Rain from Politoed, Rotom-W, Keldeo & co and if you aren't using 2 water resistances when facing a Rain, you will have hard a time handling all those stuff. As I just said it, Drizzle has an important part in the teambuilding process especially if you aren't using a Rain but is it a reason to ban Drizzle ? Ok, I do agree that according to what I just said, Drizzle looks really broken, but in my opinion it's not. Yes Drizzle is strong but it's not broken and it doesn't deserve to get banned. Here is why :

People always forget that Tyranitar is the only weather inducer that has the ability to trap the opponent's weather inducer. In addition, the Sandstorm boosts the Special Defense of every Rock type Pokemon which include Tyranitar. Actually the only problem for it could be Defensive Politoed because it takes nothing on Pursuit but still gets 2HKO'd by Crunch from CBTar (which is new most used set of Tyranitar). Additionally, the Sandstorm hits Politoed and cancels the Leftovers / makes it lose 6% each turn.

Let's talk about the standard Sand Team because I find this a bit stupid to say that Drizzle is broken and nothing can stop it while a good Sand Team cannot lose to a Rain Team whether it is a Rain Offense or a Rain Stall. Rotom-W, Celebi, Jellicent, Keldeo (yes Keldeo works very well in Sand and is amazing to destroy the opponent's rain team), Starmie, Lati@s, Breloom, Gastrodon, etc... all these guys are so painful for a Rain. Actually, only Tornadus-I could be annoying, but you guys forget Tyranitar and its ability to trap Tornadus and resist Hurricane easily.

Last thing, a Rain Team is very limited in the teambuilding while a Sand isn't. Each time I have been watching a Rain vs a Sand, the sand player always won. It's pretty easy to understand : a sand stall cannot lose to a rain stall and has a really high chance to win against a Rain Offense. A sand offense has a really good matchup against Rain Stalls. Actually the only problem could be Sand Offense vs Rain Offense, it majorly depends on the matchup (and the skill ?) and not on the fact that Drizzle is "broken".

tl;dr => Sand > Rain, Drizzle isn't that Broken for me.

EDIT BY HAUNTER P.S. I love Pocket, j/s.

EDIT BY OJAMA :

 

[BKC]

Ojama outlined everything I've been saying and I agree, but his reasons are part of why I want Drizzle banned -- it isn't that "broken" anymore [not after we nerfed its ass off, anyway], but if you use it, you're literally relying on matchup to get your wins/losses. Since Smogon strives to make the most competitive metagame possible, which means one where player skill should have the final say in the winner of a match, we should get rid of Drizzle, because games with it are decided on anything but skill.

There's also the fact that it makes several mons unviable; who remembers Conkeldurr?

 

[Sewa]

People always forget that Tyranitar is the only weather inducer that has the ability to trap the opponent's weather inducer. In addition, the Sandstorm boosts the Special Defense of every Rock type Pokemon which include Tyranitar. Actually the only problem for it could be Defensive Politoed because it takes nothing on Pursuit but still gets 2HKO'd by Crunch from CBTar (which is new most used set of Tyranitar). Additionally, the Sandstorm hits Politoed and cancels the Leftovers / makes it lose 6% each turn.

Are you kidding? Who's the idiot who sends in their Tyranitar against Politoed when Scald is on over half of them?
Who tries to switch his Tyranitar in when a predicted focus blast from specstoed does 116.06 - 136.78% to your CBTar?
Or when scarf Hydropump deals 52.84 - 62.69%?
Rain teams have an advantage just because rock/sand is weak to water and Tyranitar/Hippowdon fear burns and supereffective STAB water attacks, so you'll be playing for the major part of the match in a weather favorable to your opponent.