Balanced Hackmons Viability Rankings

[CactusCacti]

Ferrothorn also has the strong niche of the semi grass typing making it immune to spore.
It is an alright as C ranker.

 

[Uselesscrab]

Yeah, I have to agree with the Ferrothorn thing. Its neutrality to Ground and Water resistance are also useful. The Ice neutrality is annoying, but otherwise it's solid.

Still hoping that some of my previous points from this post http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/balanced-hackmons-viability-rankings.3520997/#post-5831596 will be implemented, or at least considered. (Why is Mega Latias still unlisted yet Mega Latios is in B Rank?)

 

[Rumors]

Also add me in for Ferro for C. I run it on a team as well when I noticed it covered a bunch of weaknesses other members of that team had and it performs very nicely.

I think Skarm could maybe stay C. I don't have recent experience with it, but Precipice Blades is strong enough that people are opting for it over Thousand Arrows, giving it its "naturally Ground immune Steel type" niche back. Toss on Flashfire and Skarmory pretty much only has to worry about 1k Arrow and Electric attacks, something Aggron sometimes wishes it had, especially against Earth Power. Aggron is still probably better in general, but Skarm looks like it has its niche, especially if you're doing some anti-Imposter team building shenanigans.

 

[E4 Flint]

Going to reply to a few things (OK maybe more than a few and because of this reason my responses might be a little choppy):

I don't see how Mega Rayquaza can be anything but S-rank. The mixed Aerilate set is so far and away the most dangerous offensive thing in the meta that it's almost comical. Without a Soundproof Steel or Rock type, it has no true counters. That is the definition of S material imo.

Also a little confused on why Giratina is not a 10 on Survivability, since it's the bulkiest thing in the game barring Eviolite Chansey cloning something. Shouldn't the most bulky mon be the baseline for a 10? Are we taking typing into account for Survivability as well? That makes some sense, but Ghost/Dragon still has plenty of great resists in this meta filled with V-Creates, Facades, and Superpowers. Draco Meteor and Spooky Plate Judgement are the only common attacks it's weak against in my experience.

• I feel that the definition of the S rank as we (the "council") defined it as and what's written is a little different in that an S rank pokemon is the theoretical "perfect" mon that you can put on nearly any team, that you do not need to worry about imposter for, that you do not need to adjust your team for, that can be used by an expert or a new player, and which dominated the metagame. The only pokemon that can fit is Imposter Chansey. While we took versatility into account (hence the low utility score) the positives of imposter overshadowed the rest and even without it, it can be a fairly bulky mon with eviolite. In general, we were harsher on ratings as a whole or everything could be argued to be a rank higher or lower, so keep that in mind in other ratings
  
  
• Giratina was a 10...maybe in gen 5 he was. However, I don't think that a pokemon that can be 2hkod (and in some cases 1hkod) by every ate before it has a chance to heal, 1hkod by strong protean users with a variety of moves, weak to a buffed Knock Off, weak to an entirely new type that it can't touch back, weak to the ex-most common anti imposter judgment set (that was buffed as well turning 2hkos with crits to guaranteed 2hko with recovery + lefties) should ever get a survivability of 10. It was hurt a lot in gen 6. I assure you those two moves you listed are not the only ones it's weak to, and even V-create from some of the stronger mons that aren't even good (blaziken mega) hurt it. This is especially pertinent now when it can't even run max bulk any longer due to ev change.

I don't know why I'm up this late, but whatever. Anyway, I don't get the point system. It determine rank, right? Then why are there A ranked Pokemon with overall better scores than S ranked Pokemon? (For example, Xerneas vs Diancie-Mega and Shedinja.) Pokemon that scored higher should be ranked higher, no? But if score doesn't have an impact then... why is the score even there?

Second, on the outclassed section, in what ways are they outclassed? Some are obvious, like Kyogre, so I don't expect any sort of explanation on those. But then you have others that either have unique typings or are the best in their typings. For example, Sceptile's typing is unique that gives it Spore immunity, making it the fastest safe Spore in the meta without boosts or item/ability support, and additionally also has the strongest special Grass-STAB, which actually matters since Kyogre-P, Slowbro-M, and Diancie-M are all weak to said STAB, and is also 4x resistant to Kyo's and Slowbro's Water-STAB. Meanwhile, Gard, while a little slower than Diancie, still isn't outsped by much of anything of note besides Diancie Mega-Ray, still has a unique typing, useful and practical megalution gimmick, and still Boombursts harder, not to mention lacks a 4x Steel weakness... or the rest of Rock's many, many weaknesses.

Others are harder to justify since their niches are much smaller. Mega-Aboma has unique typing and works great under Trick Room, though needs a lot of support because of its weaknesses. Despite being a bit frail, Mega-Luke holds a niche for being the Fighting type not weak to Fighting-type weaknesses and also being the Fighting-type that can scare off most Fairies. Pinsir's admittedly the hardest to argue for here since, offensively, the Bug typing is very bad in BH right now. But, it is the best Bug/Flying in the tier (at least physically), and megavolving to Aerilate gimmick, so it does have a rather small niche it runs better.

Okay, I think I'm slightly ranting a bit, but I really don't feel that anything that has a usable niche should be marked as outclassed. Rather, it should be reserved for stuff that are literally beaten in all practical ways, such as most non-Mega forms, or things that are so weak that they're literally unusable. At the very least, pull Gard and Sceptile out of there as they both have varied niches not covered by anyone else.


Either way, I feel this ranking list is a bit pre-mature. The ORAS demo information isn't even fully implemented (EG: new weather abilities don't function correctly or at all) and we don't know for certain if there won't be anything new that slipped from the demo. Unlikely, sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a Mega-Volcanion in the full-game to finish out the Kalos event trio. Additionally, while things are sort of stabilizing, the ORAS BH meta hasn't matured. Also, there's an -ate suspect coming sooner or later and, if it bans anything, whether that be certain mons, certain moves, or even -ates themselves, then it'll jostle all the ratings pretty darn hard.

• Here's how the system works. We kept an initial pool of S,A,B,C and under mons which we put mons into. The points system was helpful to decide debates on what rank which poke should be when there was disagreement among us, and a general order of mons within a letter rank. I believe the cutoff was a net of 28+ for S but I am not sure. The rating isnt in decimal. We always picked whole numbers. The decimals just come from being the average from what we picked. This is just to provide an approximate ranking of pokes within their S,A,B,C bracket.
  
  
• Adrian Marin Sorry for quoting you without asking but you said this the best and I felt it was dumb for me to just try restating what you said. When it comes to "outclassed pokemon"
  
  'In all tiers, many Pokemon have a niche, but do they rank ALL those Pokemon? If that's the case, you could say that Stunfisk is not outclassed, as it has a unique type, Stealth Rock, and is able to check Thundurus. If the OU council followed the logic being displayed in the BH thread, Stunfisk would be ranked! Let's not rank Pokemon that aren't worth using over other Pokemon. Let's just say that these Pokemon are "indirectly outclassed."'
  
  
• Your views on it being pre-mature echo what I think as well. However, Heisenerg was keen to have a foundation. These ranks can always be modified accordingly should things happen, which is always likely to happen no matter what (remember our old BH gen 5 guide which went through many iterations as well despite being no bans and no new regular features besides the mold fix)

The issue with relying on soundproof Pokemon to handle Mega Ray is that they can easily be broken by coverage. Aggron M, one of the best soundproof mons, can easily die to any special fire move, Arceus dies to fighting moves, and so on and so forth. Mega Ray is S because of how high BOTH of it's attacks are, allowing it to easily bypass what otherwise would be checks/counters.

Edit: Also, I would push for Mega Aggron in A rank. The meta is absolutely infested with -ate moves, and while it does die to special coverage, it can still effectively trap opposing -ates. Add on the ability to run powerful -ate sets of your own without being imposter weak, and the ability to beat imposters though PP stall, and you have a very effective Pokemon. Given that this is also only it's main set, and that it can support the team in other ways, I would argue that it's just as dangerous in the current metagame as Pokemon like Shedinja and Giratina.

• Your first point easily answers your second one as to why Aggron is not A. His special bulk is lacking not just to fire moves and not just to Boomburst and you've also been kind enough to mention that it's its "only main set" its versatility (i.e. "utility") score is also low. Refer to above point about being harsher in rankings in general.

I don't like this system at all, so I left the council conversation (I'm not on the council)

• Not our fault you can't understand how numbers work

Wait, what pokemon is suppoused to out class mega sceptile?

• See earlier point on outclassed by adrian

Gotta say, I'm a little surprised by Kyurem-B in B rank. Does it really have "numerous flaws"? Also, I feel like its ability to beat Mega Rayquaza and Mega Gengar makes it a bit more useful. I'm not sure about A rank, but it might be worth looking at.

Also, I don't think I'm the only one who would support moving Darm-Z from C to B. It's a good stop to Kyurem-B and Mega Diancie, and can choose to wall sweepers with Unaware, go physically defensive with Fur Coat, or be specially defensive with AV + Regenerator. It's certainly better than some of the other Pokemon in the rank, like Skarmory and Cresselia.

Third, if Aegislash is in A rank, Registeel deserves it as well. It has better HP and no weakness to Knock Off or Gengar-Mega's Judgment. The main thing it loses out on is Fighting immunity, which isn't that great.

Mega Latias should be in C rank rather than not being anywhere.

I'm a little concerned by the implications of Blissey in A rank. I don't think we should really be giving random people who look at this thread the idea that Blissey is as useful as other Pokemon in that rank, when in fact it's outclassed in all but a very small subsection of roles that beginning players probably won't use anyway. And even in those roles, it could be argued that Chansey is better, because it can bluff Eviolite. I agree that, if Chansey didn't exist, Blissey being in A would be a good idea. But in this case it just comes off a little strange.

Last, a general thought: the gap in quality between B and C rank is just staggering. We go from Pokemon like Mega Gengar, one of the best special sweepers in the metagame, to things like the Deoxys formes and Cresselia.

• Ice in my opinion was easier to stop and its special attacks are not as strong. Dragon/Ice has some pretty common weaknesses as well and chansey could reasonably take it unlike Ray on a switch in.
  
• DarmZ while reasonably good has been hurt as all bulk mons have by the ev split and the bulk loss is noticable. Remember, these ratings also take the "versatility" of a mon into account, and DarmZ lacks there just as its peers do.
• I cannot comment for the rest of the council on registeel but in my opinion, knock off is more common but also easier to stop and aegislash has in my personal experience been a better wall to most neutral attacks as well has having an immunity to shed. The fighting weakness is a greater point than you suggest when it is used on mewtwoX, very common and also on contrary mons. Also remember point on harsher rankings. Ev change has also forced one to decide between which defensive stat you pick making it slightly less bulky in the other than aegi would be.
• I think mega Latias was meant to be clubbed in with Latios which shall be checked on
• Blissey again shall be checked on, however I think "outclassed" is a bit overdoing it since it's not like imposter blissey is functionally that much worse than chansey to be unusable completely. When it comes to scarf and the like some people may prefer the extra hp to mind games
• Post ev has hurt gengar a lot in that it can hardly switch in anymore even to a neutral attack and usually running recovery on it limits its capacity to sweep. Think of it like this, it is almost impossible now for a mGengar to set up and sweep alone anymore. This was my personal rationale to keep it in B, but I think it has been moved to A already on majority vote.

Uselesscrab Functioning properly, such as Desolate Lands stopping water attacks? If so, then I missed that update.

@ The list: Two other things I noticed: Slaking and Regigigas are in different tiers when they're virtually interchangeable. The only notable differences between are some base stat differences that don't mean a lot (Slaking has higher physical bulk, Gigas special) and the fact that, for whatever reason, they don't share sets. I don't know why you never see PH Slaking or Belly Speed Gigas when they'd both handle the sets about the same.

Also, Deo-A is on the list. Why? Last Gen we were telling people to stop using it over Mewtwo, who is outclassed now, and it has always been the poster boy for new players who don't know what they're doing yet. This Gen the only tiny niche it got was that it did mixed Protean fairly well, but that's completely murdered by Mega-Ray now.

Also, Blastoise-M should be under outclassed, since newer players still tend to run it even though it offered nothing over Kyogre, let alone Kyogre-P, except a very tiny improvement in physical bulk at the cost of everything else. Suicune may also be worth including there too since it's fairly prevalent in other meta-games, particularly the somewhat similar AAA.

• Your point on Slaking was reviewed
• Your answer of why Blastoise M is used is an answer to deoA but it is also in the small niche pool of being faster than mewtwo Y and imposter has a difficult time of switching in on it. Once again, explaining the rationale, although I believe it has been moved by now.
  

Btw,Thank you guys for taking this seriously and having some good discussion instead of just "dude Ray is so uber he's practically a balanced huemon to the tier trelelel"

 

[E4 Flint]

Double post but I decided to keep this separate since the last one was a tad big.

I think ferro skarm and even shuckle are fine as C rank considering the amount of usage they see and they are not niche enough to be indirectly outclassed for the reasons others have already kindly mentioend. The only one I could agree with is skarm going to outclassed but it's pretty much on the borderline.

 

[CactusCacti]

I am starting to think you guys might need a D rank cause BH is seriously verstile and even some of these considered outclassed ones are effective with their specialized niches.
Like shuckle and skarm, I'd consider them D rank and would not call them outclassed completely.

 

[Richie BITG]

IK this sounds silly, but I recently got interested in this. I definitely agree there should be a D rank, and then an E rank for everything else.
Also, you guys will probably disagree with me, but i found a cool thing for TFlame that could possibly put him to C rank (?) Contrary. It really works well on him.

 

[Ranger Mike]

IK this sounds silly, but I recently got interested in this. I definitely agree there should be a D rank, and then an E rank for everything else.
Also, you guys will probably disagree with me, but i found a cool thing for TFlame that could possibly put him to C rank (?) Contrary. It really works well on him.

First of all no talonflame is not getting ranked but while we are at it, since arrows is kinda ded zard y is kinda better kinda not though cause ates arent too kind to it but thats beside the point anyways zard y is a great aerialate abuser because it pun intended roasts steels and can run earth power or just use boomburst to break rocks. Sorry this isn't a long post but there really isn't much to say.
Basically zard y to b

 

[Rumors]

Talonflame will never be viable in BH for one reason and one reason only:

 

[Halliday]

Talonflame will never be viable in BH for one reason and one reason only:

Two reasons actually, cause megazard Y is also a thing

 

[Nike of Samothrace]

You could say that Talonflame is... OUTCLASSED... by Ho-oh!

 

[Heisenerg]

Sorry for the delay, but here are the changes:

Outclassed rank replaced with D rank:
It was decided that while these Pokemon had almost no viable usage in the metagame, their niches were still enough to be ranked on a low rank and that other Pokemon that resided in the Outclassed rank were considered that way for obvious reasons, such as base formes for certain Mega Evolutions. Hence Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Shuckle and Attack Forme Deoxys have been moved from Outclassed to D while Heatran has been moved from C to D as well.

 

[Uselesscrab]

Mega Steelix from Unlisted to C Rank or D Rank: it's not entirely outclassed by Aggron-Mega and is better in some ways

Regirock from Unlisted to C Rank or D Rank: People have started using it to check -ates.

Volcanion from Unlisted to D Rank: interesting typing, resists Ice and Fairy, actually can run an okay Soundproof set, isn't entirely outclassed by Primal Groudon

Mega Blaziken from Unlisted to D Rank: Fire STAB is nice, it resists Ice, and Mold Breaker set is not half bad.

Arceus-Ghost and maybe Arceus-Rock from Unlisted to D Rank: I would argue that these are still viable in the current meta. Ghost is unpredictable and bulkier than Mega Gengar, and Rock resists Aerilate at least which is nice.

Mawile-Mega from Unlisted to D Rank: As unreliable as this thing is, it does have a distinct niche that no other Pokemon can fill.

Ho-Oh from B to C Rank: I really don't think this belongs with stuff like Kyurem-B and Registeel when the only person I've seen use it in a really long time is Filia. Feel free to argue against me, though.

Mega Banette from Unlisted to D Rank: Isn't outclassed by anything and Flint and others have used it for Copycat + Shadow Force.

Feel free to debate any of these; they're all subjective.

 

[Filia]

Sadly yeah, RIP Hooh, doesn't do shit in that meta... yet

I shall come up with a wonderful set for my BFF brb

 

[Rumors]

I really don't see why Ho-Oh isn't used more often though. It's got great special bulk, great power, immunity to Web/Spikes/T-Spikes/Burn, no weakness to -ate attackers and, in fact, resists one of them, and it's biggest weakness, Stealth Rocks, is negated by its preferred Magic Guard sets. Rock coverage is also very rare outside of STAB, Electric is rare outside of STAB and Bolt Strikes on stuff that want to bypass Kyogre, and Water is also rare outside of STAB (and it can wall Gyarados' Crabhammer with a physically defensive Unaware set after a +1 Coil boost). Weak to 1k Arrows, yes, but people choosing Precipice Blades now make that less of an issue.

Also, I agree with Useless crab on Steelix, Regirock, Volcanion, Blaziken, and Mawile. No experience with Banette or Arceus-Rock to comment. Arceus-Ghost I'd say at least C, since it can do a lot of the crab Gengar can and, unlike Gengar, it isn't crippled by Trick/Knock Off. In fact, it's outright immune to one and never takes boosted damage from the other.

I'd also add...

Giratina-O from Unlisted to D. It's like Gengar, except bulkier in exchange for power and speed. -ate weakness keeps me from suggesting it any higher.

Houndoom-M from Unlisted to D. I want to say C, but I've not tooled around with it enough argue for that. But it does have a unique typing and an interesting Drought > Solar Power megalution gimmick that can nuke stuff hard against the unprepared.

Manectric from Unlisted to C. There are not any other noticeable special Electric sweepers in the tier and Manectric outclasses all of them in almost every way except Ampharos-M (bulk, Trick Room, secondary typing, higher power), and possibly Thundurus (dual STAB and... ummm... I got nothing.) It's quite fast, outsped by very little (one of which it usually scares out anyway), and can hit quite hard now under 510. It can run a Refrigerate set with Boomburst to support is Electric STAB, allowing it to plow through a lot of stuff, Sheer Force + LO to power up it's STAB and coverage (usually Ice Beam) for similar results, a somewhat gimmicky Technician set that shows potential but I need to try on a real team before I fully support it (Charge Beam, Parabolic Charge, Frost Breath), and rain sets that abuse Thunder (Dry Skin + LO, Swiftswim, or heck, could even do Primordial Sea with Thunder + Waterspout, but I've not tried Primordial on it myself.)

It's underrated and underused, IMO, but it's pretty much the best special Electric attacker in the tier and it can accomplish that in a variety of ways. If it weren't for -ates, I'd consider trying to argue for B for similar reasons Aero-M made it. ...actually, since it's not weak to any of them, unlike Aero and Fridge, I'm considering it. But... it's definitely a C at worst.

 

[Uselesscrab]

I have a couple of suggestions. First of all, the BH Viability Rankings link in the room intro needs to go to this, not the old ones. Also, it might be a good idea to add in potential abilities for each threat, as we did in the previous thread. I'd be willing to help.

 

[Nike of Samothrace]

I have a couple of suggestions. First of all, the BH Viability Rankings link in the room intro needs to go to this, not the old ones. Also, it might be a good idea to add in potential abilities for each threat, as we did in the previous thread. I'd be willing to help.

I've raised this issue (which I am in favor of) to the council. We'll keep ya updated.

 

[Rumors]

Suggesting to move Kanga-M from C to D. It is inferior to Slaking, Regigigas, and Arceus in pretty much every way with the only niche it has is bypassing the format's rules and accessing Parental Bond via mega-evolution. It's a good ability, sure, but that's all it does and everyone is going to be seeing it from a mile away because of it. (Unless you're in the low ladder where people seem to pick stuff based on RNG rolls.)

 

[Heisenerg]

Changes:
The following Pokemon have been added to the D Rank due to possessing niches within the metagame that are worthy of mention:

Mega Houndoom, Volcanion, Mega Beedrill, Mega Alakazam, Mega Manectric, Mega Banette, Mega Blaziken and Mega Mawile.

Ho-oh: B -> C
While it might not have been the case in earlier instances of the metagame, Ho-oh's general capabilities are gradually becoming less viable as the metagame evolves past it, thus in its current state it no longer fits the description of a Pokemon of the B Rank.

Upcoming:
- Three Pokemon that will be added to the C rank are having their scores finalized
- Abilities will listed next to each Pokemon. Still being worked on.

 

[Kotaro Fuma]

I think Mega Charizard-Y should get a Spot in A or B tier because of the Glae Wings + Tail Glow + Oblivion Wing set IMO.
Edit: The few things that can stop it are Imposters, Registeel (If you don't care Earth Power) and the "-Ate" Extreme Speeds

 

[Pikachuun]

I think Mega Charizard-Y should get a Spot in A or B tier because of the Glae Wings + Tail Glow + Oblivion Wing set IMO

-ate users, especially the omnipresent M-Ray, beat this set, so it's definitely not B-rank.

 

[Kotaro Fuma]

-ate users, especially the omnipresent M-Ray, beat this set, so it's definitely not B-rank.

BTW I left My thoughts here lol xD

 

[Uselesscrab]

The things that you say stopped it, "Imposters, Registeel, and the -ate Extreme Speeds," are definitely too common to justify A Rank, or even B Rank, though if we had a B- rank I could see it maybe going there, by virtue of its okay Aerilate set in addition to this.

(There are other things that wall it, though, like Aegislash, Shedinja if you don't have Magma Storm, Unaware, and the like. Stealth Rock also hurts it quite a bit.)

 

[Kotaro Fuma]

The things that you say stopped it, "Imposters, Registeel, and the -ate Extreme Speeds," are definitely too common to justify A Rank, or even B Rank, though if we had a B- rank I could see it maybe going there, by virtue of its okay Aerilate set in addition to this.

(There are other things that wall it, though, like Aegislash, Shedinja if you don't have Magma Storm, Unaware, and the like. Stealth Rock also hurts it quite a bit.)

The arguments are Valid :D yeah if B- existed it was more fair tho because i think Y-Zard is more useful than C xD

 

[Neverman]

Arceus-Ghost and maybe Arceus-Rock from Unlisted to D Rank: I would argue that these are still viable in the current meta. Ghost is unpredictable and bulkier than Mega Gengar, and Rock resists Aerilate at least which is nice.

I think Steelceus should be included too since it has the best defensive type of the game, and resists all -ates (while Rock resists only Aerilate). Oh, and it is the fastest Steel mon if that serves as a niche, like for an example Steelceus can Parting Shot on Aerilate M-Ray before being hit by some coverage (like Close Combat, Magma Storm, Thousand Arrows or V-Create), and he doesn't need Prankster to do it. The fact that he is also immune to trick and skill swap in a plus over any other Prankster Steel (of course Prankster still has advantage against faster things like Mega Mewtwos, like Destiny Bond in a desperate situation against a +2/+2 atk/spatk + speed Sweeper).

And i think Abomasnow-Mega should be listed as D or even C rank due to:

-STABed Refrigerate;
-Better offensive base stats than Xerneas (it's just 1 point better lol, but it is still better);
-Better base defenses but less HP than the Deer Uber, overall their bulkies are similar;
-Speed is crap, but with ExtremeSpeed + FakeOut you're not gonna need it, and Boomburst is to wallbreak, so generally you won't be facing something capable of doing a lot of damage when you use Boomburst;
-STABed Grass Knot or Wood Hammer to get past Primal-Ogre (and even M-Slowbro, but i guess you would need Seed Flare in this case);
-Grass type gives you a resist to switch in Thousand Arrows, which is a common coverage in this meta;
-Immunity to Spore without needing a Safety Googles;
-Possibility to hold Icicle Plate or Life Orb to boost damage, or to hold its megastone if you don't wanna get Tricked;

Well, i made my points, now is up to you guys to decide.