Jellicent counters the one with Ice Shard its true. I know that Shrang and I would run Toxic just to screw with Jellicent, while still letting you "beat" Rotom W (Toxic it then Rest off Thunderbolt).
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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
It still seems as though Amoonguss takes it on fine.
And if anything, I'd be running a HydraRest Vap with Work Up/Acid Armor and then either Scald, Surf, or BP (hell, Ice Beam if you felt the need for it) but whatevs.
I run Amoonguss on 90% of my teams so that's probably why I don't normally have troubles with it.
And if anything, I'd be running a HydraRest Vap with Work Up/Acid Armor and then either Scald, Surf, or BP (hell, Ice Beam if you felt the need for it) but whatevs.
I run Amoonguss on 90% of my teams so that's probably why I don't normally have troubles with it.
BurningMan
fueled by beer
How?
It can't status Lapras and all it can do is gigadrain for 25% damage (depending on lapras EV spread but even 4/0 isn't 2HKOd). Amoongus is actually set-up fodder for Lapras. But that doesn't changes the fact that Lapras is crap in OU even with Hydration thanks to its awful defensive typing and lack of any offensive presence unless it got an enormous amount of boosts wich it should never get because every team propably carrys 2 or more Pokes that can easily check/counter it.
Lapras always sounds nice on paper but in reality its just a physical Reuniclus that is way too dependent on weather and has a similar bad defensive typing.
It's not a physical Reuniclus.
Reuniclus is actually good. It can actually kill things. It doesn't need to set up to +3 or +4 before it poses an offensive threat, it can do that just fine at neutral. Reuniclus can actually break stall.
It's more like a physical... I don't even know... it's just a piece of shit, really.
Reuniclus is actually good. It can actually kill things. It doesn't need to set up to +3 or +4 before it poses an offensive threat, it can do that just fine at neutral. Reuniclus can actually break stall.
It's more like a physical... I don't even know... it's just a piece of shit, really.
I tried Lapras a little while ago and I really wasn't impressed with the results. The set I ran was some weird Specially Defensive Dragon Dance set with Rest and it really didn't do a whole lot. In the matches I used it, it was so horribly weak and pretty easy to play around. Any competent player will know your strategy upon team preview when seeing Politoed and Lapras on the same team, and given there really is no other viable Lapras set in OU it's pretty obvious what it's going to do. This is just my opinion of course, but agreeing with BurningMan, there are so many common checks to Lapras it makes it hard to set up successfully. Even if all the Lapras checks are down, you still need 4 or 5 boosts to actually accomplish anything which wastes even more of your time. Also for the argument about Lapras being able to wreck teams, I really don't see this happening frequently. The amount of team support needed to make it work is kind of annoying because of how easily it is walled and even at +4 / +5 / +6 it fails to break through the bulky waters it needs to because of it's severe 4mss due to having to run Rest and Dragon Dance / Curse. Also I don't understand what you're saying about "once it sets up, it wrecks teams", the same applies with any Pokemon, and the fact that Lapras has a hard time sweeping after multiple boosts emphasizes that is really is not great.
I tried Curse Lapras around February/March of this year with LO and around 252 PS / 252 Sp. Def Careful with Rest-Waterfall-Ice Shard-Rest, and it was a pain to make it successful.
It is necessary to win the weather war, or the only useful thing that Lapras can do is revenge kill 1% HP pokes with Ice Shard. Due the fact it is a setup sweeper, any weather change takes away Rest.
It is very different to its Hydration partner Vaporeon. Vaporeon can do something in a different weather, as it only needs 1 turn from Resting and even it can Rest in a different weather and switch out, the next time with rain up, heal itself. Vaporeon due its typing and no SR weakness has more chances to enter into the battlefield. Vaporeon also has Wish in emergencies and the ever annoying Scald(however if Lapras had it it would be useless in it anyways)
Lapras has a lot of weaknesses because its crap Ice Type which include popular moves such as Close Combat, Superpower and Stone Edge, even with +1 from Curse it cannot handle that, and it is free switch for a lot of mons and it is predictable as hell in OU. Weakness to SR is pretty annoying. Because of its slowness, it lacks time to heal back with Rest.
The good news are it is very capable with evs in Sp Def to even not being 2KOed by special moves and heal back.
For instance, Modest Scarf Rotom-W with Volt Switch is 29%-34%, Thunderbolt is 38,7%-45,7%
The speed drop from Curse also harms it, Lapras is slow, but with the drop anything outspeeds it and maybe prevents it from Resting and helps it to be a Taunt-bait.
I am not saying that (Curse) Lapras is useless in OU(it may), without a lot of propper support which include to WIN the weather war is essential.
It is necessary to win the weather war, or the only useful thing that Lapras can do is revenge kill 1% HP pokes with Ice Shard. Due the fact it is a setup sweeper, any weather change takes away Rest.
It is very different to its Hydration partner Vaporeon. Vaporeon can do something in a different weather, as it only needs 1 turn from Resting and even it can Rest in a different weather and switch out, the next time with rain up, heal itself. Vaporeon due its typing and no SR weakness has more chances to enter into the battlefield. Vaporeon also has Wish in emergencies and the ever annoying Scald(however if Lapras had it it would be useless in it anyways)
Lapras has a lot of weaknesses because its crap Ice Type which include popular moves such as Close Combat, Superpower and Stone Edge, even with +1 from Curse it cannot handle that, and it is free switch for a lot of mons and it is predictable as hell in OU. Weakness to SR is pretty annoying. Because of its slowness, it lacks time to heal back with Rest.
The good news are it is very capable with evs in Sp Def to even not being 2KOed by special moves and heal back.
For instance, Modest Scarf Rotom-W with Volt Switch is 29%-34%, Thunderbolt is 38,7%-45,7%
The speed drop from Curse also harms it, Lapras is slow, but with the drop anything outspeeds it and maybe prevents it from Resting and helps it to be a Taunt-bait.
I am not saying that (Curse) Lapras is useless in OU(it may), without a lot of propper support which include to WIN the weather war is essential.
Actually Curse Lapras can use some bulky waters for setting up.
Let's see bulky waters in OU:
Gastrodon, lol set-up
Jellicent, Away if Jelli has Taunt.
Politoed, Only annoying if it has Encore or Perish Song, however most of them do.
Rotom-W: not good matchup, but if defensive, Lapras laughs at it.
Tentacruel: lol free set-up
Vaporeon: Almost PP Stall, but easy free +6
Gyarados: Better stay away from it.
Let's see bulky waters in OU:
Gastrodon, lol set-up
Jellicent, Away if Jelli has Taunt.
Politoed, Only annoying if it has Encore or Perish Song, however most of them do.
Rotom-W: not good matchup, but if defensive, Lapras laughs at it.
Tentacruel: lol free set-up
Vaporeon: Almost PP Stall, but easy free +6
Gyarados: Better stay away from it.
Amoonguss with Clear Smog puts a stop to Lapras while not necessarily doing anything in return, it still takes it on OK enough for me (I doubt +3 Ice Shard comes close to OHKOing Shroom) and tbh I just don't see Lapras being that useful at all. Perish'd by toed, Taunted by Jelly, Ferro Leechs/Power Whips it down (and even at +6 I don't think it's taking out Ferro), hell, Scizorotom is going to just Voltturn off of it until someone crits, I just don't see it being that viable.
I don't even know why we're discussing this when we have Acid Armor/Work Up/Rest/BP Vap....
I don't even know why we're discussing this when we have Acid Armor/Work Up/Rest/BP Vap....
I definitely think of Lapras as a gimmick but I haven't personally used it much. I'd rather wait and go for the same set applied to Whiscash, just switch out the weak Ice STAB for a nice Ground-type alternative
Probably for the same reasons that people don't always discuss Ninjask. Sure it gets a great Baton Pass off if you get lucky, but in the event that things don't go how you plan or you get Roared, Hazed, or whatever, all of your efforts are in vain. If a chain passed an Agility to it, it could hopefully avoid a number of taunts but if it's really expected to work, I'd put it right behind an Ingrain Smeargle in an old-fashioned Baton Pass team
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Why use Lapras when you can just use Cloyster? It doesn't have the same durability and priority (unless you plan to use Ice Shard in place of Hydro Pump/Razor Shell or Icicle Spear - not that it would be an intelligent idea), but with just one turn of setup, it's ready to sweep, and has coverage in form of Rock Blast.
I realize that Vap set is taunt bait or whatever, not reliable in the slightest, but Lapras is as well, and it can give those boosts to other things (and it's about as easy to set up as Lapras if not easier because you lose the awful Ice typing).
Oh and yeah, Whiscash is also better than Lapras at this job.
Oh and yeah, Whiscash is also better than Lapras at this job.
252Atk Life Orb +4 Lapras (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Amoonguss (+Def): 87% - 103% (378 - 446 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 20% chance to OHKO.
94% chance at +3 to OHKO with a Life Orb if your Amoongus is Specially Defensive but a full 252 attack Lapras needs +4 and a Life Orb to even have a chance to OHKO a physically defensive Amoongus?
Lapras' best offensive set is surely the Bulky DD/Rest/Waterfall/Ice Shard under rain as Waterfall under rain gives much better results and you only need to resort to Ice Shard in emergencies.
94% chance at +3 to OHKO with a Life Orb if your Amoongus is Specially Defensive but a full 252 attack Lapras needs +4 and a Life Orb to even have a chance to OHKO a physically defensive Amoongus?
Lapras' best offensive set is surely the Bulky DD/Rest/Waterfall/Ice Shard under rain as Waterfall under rain gives much better results and you only need to resort to Ice Shard in emergencies.
See, if you wanted a Pokemon in rain with completely redundant defensive typing, Cloyster is the way to go, not Lapras. Lapras has moveslot syndrome, since it needs Rest and Dragon Dance to be truely effective. Cloyster just needs Shell Smash set up, and it only takes one turn to do so, whereas Lapras needs more boosts to be effective. Cloyster is also bulkier on the physical side, or at least until it Smashes, so it has some leeway in that. And, of course, none of its main options have base powers under 120, unless you run Razor Shell or a Hidden Power. It is a bit more vulnerable to priority, but the pros outweigh the cons, imo.
Oh yeah, and if you do want to use Dragon Dance, the best options are Kingdra (Sniper?), Haxorus, and Whiscash. Fuck yeah Whiscash.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
Transitioning out of the two-day Lapras discussion, what do you guys think of Keldeo's place in the current metagame? I'm definitely seeing a lot less of Tornadus-T these days, which makes me think that Keldeo's niche may have opened back up again. It's still a wonderful stallbreaker as a Specs user, but I feel that the Calm Mind set may have again become the best way to make use of it. I haven't seen Torn all day, and I haven't seen Amoonguss all month, so I'm going to start playing around with it on Showdown and I'll get back to you on whether or not it lives up to my hype.
In the meantime, feel free to post your opinions on Keldeo's place in the meta. I'm interested to hear what you have to say!
In the meantime, feel free to post your opinions on Keldeo's place in the meta. I'm interested to hear what you have to say!
I played Lum Keldeo which is a pretty cool stallbreaker against a lot of teams, and I can definitely see it being more popular because of how stupid people are for not playing Amoonguss as much as they should be.
Keldeo sounds like a cool choice definitely.
Keldeo sounds like a cool choice definitely.
I don't think it's torn-t that's keeping keldeo's usage down, it just has a bunch of common checks and counters it the current meta, tornadus can't even switch in, it can only revenge kill non-scarfed variants.
Jellicent and toxicroak are almost full stops to keldeo, while starmie, lati@s, Gyarados and dragonite/salamence are great checks.
Jellicent and toxicroak are almost full stops to keldeo, while starmie, lati@s, Gyarados and dragonite/salamence are great checks.
I'm finding that a lot of Rain teams aren't as offensive now as they were back in the beginning of BW2. There is less of "specs everything" and more of balance, and how-do-I-use-my-weather-the-best-way sort of thing. Keldeo isn't really anything but offense, and in terms of revenging, well a lot of players prefer Tornadus-T, because its coverage is a lot better. Blissey and Chansey are plummeting, lessening the need for a special sweeper that can hit physically- and Dragons are on the rise, making Keldeo's STABs seem a lot less threatening.
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Jellicent can be defeated by HP Ghost or Electric, and Toxicroak isn't used as much nowadays. Starmie must be careful about HP Electric or a rain-boosted Hydro Pump, and it cannot OHKO a full-health Keldeo with Thunderbolt. Latios is felled by HP Ice or rain-boosted Hydro Pump, while also being 2HKOed by Icy Wind. DD versions of Dragonite loses to any Keldeo carrying Icy Wind as long as it haven't had a chance to boost with Dragon Dance. Non-DD ones can be also defeated if Multiscale was previously broken. Salamence is also on the same boat. Gyarados loses to HP Electric and even rain-boosted Hydro Pump will wear it down. Celebi wasn't mentioned but is also a great switch-in if Keldeo doesn't carry Icy Wind or HP Ghost/Ice. This is all assuming that Keldeo is a Choice Specs variant.
In short, Keldeo doesn't have true counters, at least not universal ones. Its list of counters depend of the coverage moves that it carry apart from its STABs, and even many things that are weak to its coverage moves can be defeated by neutral or resisted rain-boosted Hydro Pumps if they aren't specially bulky or aren't named Blissey and Chansey (and the two pink blobs don't stand a chance either due to Secret Sword, unless if Keldeo is locked in the wrong attack).
Keldeo has a few checks apart from those that aren't weak to its moves, and most, if not all things that could outspeed and defeat Keldeo, cannot switch on him at all, or else they are OHKOed. Examples include the aforementioned Tornadus-T, Alakazam, Jolteon and Choice Scarf Thundurus-T. That said, the best way to defeat Keldeo is revenge killing him, and this cause Keldeo to always get one or more kills at a match if you predict correctly. That's why I don't understand why Keldeo is underrated; Leldeo has a shallow movepool but its sheer power is what makes it so amazing.
I have personnally been using a core of Specs Keldeo and Band Terrakion, and together they form one of the most destructive pairings I've seen yet. They hit each others counters incredibly hard, and as a result, it can be quite difficult to get around them without taking copious amounts of damage, which make sweepers jobs very easy.
Anyhow, Keldeo itself is really good. Its a lot easier to get in than Terrakion, because of its water typing. It can switch in on Scizor, Heatran, Volcarona, and it makes one of the best Shell Smash Cloyster checks I've seen to date, simply because of its typing.
I personally don't use Icy Wind+Hp Electric, rather I run Hp Ghost and Surf for a reliable alternative to Hydro Pump. Jellicent and Latias both get hit hard with Hp Ghost, while the likes of Gyarados and Dragonite are better left to teammates. I've used both sets, and I've never really had any use for those options.
By the way, Keldeo and Genesect make for great partners. The previosly mentioned checks and counters are easily handled by Genesect, and the switches forced by Genesect are great opportunities for Keldeo to get in there. Actually, VoltTurn in general is awesome for Keldeo. All the chip damage and free switches make Keldeo a happy pony.
Anyhow, Keldeo itself is really good. Its a lot easier to get in than Terrakion, because of its water typing. It can switch in on Scizor, Heatran, Volcarona, and it makes one of the best Shell Smash Cloyster checks I've seen to date, simply because of its typing.
I personally don't use Icy Wind+Hp Electric, rather I run Hp Ghost and Surf for a reliable alternative to Hydro Pump. Jellicent and Latias both get hit hard with Hp Ghost, while the likes of Gyarados and Dragonite are better left to teammates. I've used both sets, and I've never really had any use for those options.
By the way, Keldeo and Genesect make for great partners. The previosly mentioned checks and counters are easily handled by Genesect, and the switches forced by Genesect are great opportunities for Keldeo to get in there. Actually, VoltTurn in general is awesome for Keldeo. All the chip damage and free switches make Keldeo a happy pony.
As the poster above shows, people don't use Keldeo simply because the underestimate it. I have used it on several teams, and I can tell you it is NEVER a disappointment. It's one of the few special sweepers who can plow through the pink blobs without breaking a sweat, and his typing gives him some good resistances (bug, rock, water, ice, fire, steel, dark) allowing him to check and force out multiple threats. People who aren't using keldeo just because they think he has 'too many checks' or 'because of Tornadus-T' are losing out on one of the most powerful pokes in OU. Their loss.
Keldeo, without Rain is not very sexy. Specs Hydro Pump is just not appealing without a boost to make up for a 20% miss rate, since there is a lot of Pokemon that bulk it's stabs natural. It's move pool just blows, usually you don't find yourself using the two filler moves at all, since they are both relatively weak and not stab boosted. Though hitting Venusaurs on the switch with Icy Wind is just so satisfying, but predicting switches isn't always possible.