CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 12b - Complete Movepool Poll 2

[Phi]

So, Draco Meteor is only 2.5 Base Power off the STABs? This is even more fuel to my fire of not allowing it. Against Krillowatt, thigs ARE going to switch, usually to a counter/check.

Now, which is better to blindly fire off to deal some damage? A random Surf, Thunderbolt, or a Draco Meteor?

This is off the assumption that with 84 attacking stats, even with a possible free life orb, Krilowatt is going to be just blindly firing off damage. Even with his STABs I can't imagine him making particularly large dents in his opponents, and Draco Meteor is just at that much more of a disadvantage because it forces him to switch out afterwards, unless it's a mixed set which just opens a whole 'nother can of worms. The fact of the matter is Krilowatt's probably going to have to surprise switchins fairly often. While Surf/Thunderbolt/Draco Meteor/Overheat gets about the same amount of coverage as Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Filler, I like the option of being able to slam either Dragon Types or Grass Types for insane amounts of damage more than the ability to get both for what could presumably end up being middling amounts of damage, especially versus specially defensive Pokes like Latias and Celebi. That seems to fit the concept ten times better for me, since we want this Pokemon to be incredibly threatening to the Pokemon it chooses to be threatening to, and pretty much fucked against most other things.

 

[SJCrew]

Draco Meteor: 140 Base Power
Heart Swap: 0 Base Power
Total: 140 Base Power, -2 Special Attack, which doesn't matter because Krillowatt should be hit by Earthquake or something.

vs.

Resisted Surf: 71.25 Base Power
Resisted Surf: 71.25 Base Power
Total: 142.5 Base Power.

Right, and Surf does absolute shit for damage to Kingdra, which is exactly the Pokemon Draco Meteor is meant to counter.

I don't think passing off Sp. Att drops will be that big a deal, since CAP10's is a lot more worried about EQ than any special attacker, I'm just saying that I can understand why some people are skeptical about it. Krilowatt can really fuck over something like Celebi with that Sp. Att drop.

 

[Raikaria]

Right, so, let's adress these points:

What you seem to be forgetting (unless i missed something) is that it leaves you with -2 special attack. Yes you can use heartswap, however thats another highly competed moveslot gone.

I voted dk. I agree with much of his above reasoning, especially concerning counter coat and that icebeam isnt needed.

My Answer:

Odds are they're switching to a counter, and when that happens, especially if it's Krill's first time out, you can BET it's a Water or Electric Resist. Krill will also probobly have to switch out afterwards, making the Sp.Attack drop moot.

Guys, if you really think that unSTABbed Draco Meteor is that good, can someone explain me why it isn't used AT ALL on Jirachi? He has better SpA than Krilowatt, worse STAB (so it would have even more reason to fire off neutral Draco Meteors, not having wide neutral STABs like Water or Electric), yet Draco Meteor Jirachi is almost non-existant. If it were the "omg almost broken" move you claim, I guess Jirachi would use it sometimes.

My Answer?

Jirachi simply has better things to be doing. Jirachi has 4MMS like mad. Krillowatt will too, yes, but as it's designed to counter, that's going to be limited somewhat, Krill will usually have 2 moveslots free after whatever it's using to counter. Jirachi already has to choose between Calm Mind, Iron Head abuse, U-Turn + Wish, Thunder Wave, Body Slam, Zen Headbutt [More abuse].

Draco Meteor simply dosen't FIT with any of Jirachi's sets. Physical sets will not get enough punch, and it's counter-productive to the Calm Mind sets.

This is off the assumption that with 84 attacking stats, even with a possible free life orb, Krilowatt is going to be just blindly firing off damage.

My Reply?

Please, enlighten me how a pokemon designed to counter is NOT going to be blindly firing off damage? It's not an assumption. When something is in danger, it switches. FACT. When something switches, the attack used is 'Blind Fired'. FACT. No assumptions there.

Ie: Infernape [Random Example] is in. Krillowatt comes in. There's no way that monkey is going to be staying in against Krillowatt, so it switches out. You have no clue what's coming in, barring prior scouting [Although, an educated guess is a Water Resist]. You can probobly wager it'll check Krillowatt too.

In a way, my severe opposition to Draco Meteor is akin to DK's opposition to Ice Beam. With both moves, the standard Krill set will be:

Krillowatt @ Life Orb
Modest/Naive Nature
252 Sp.attack/252 Speed/4 [Either DEF]
Magic Guard

Thunderbolt
Surf
Ice Beam
Draco Meteor

Deck Knight denys Ice Beam, but I feel Krill needs that. I feel Draco Meteor is uneeded, unjustifyed, 'switch-in-spammable', dosen't fit the concept [Counters nothing but Kingdra, whom the weaker Dragon moves can handle], and has no drawback as Krill would have to switch out ANYWAY because a counter's just switched in.

By extension, I'm 100% against Jikabu's moveset [Although it's GOOD, I don't AGREE with it], 50% with Deck Knight [Ice Beam is needed, IMO], and 95% [Vaccum Wave is not something I wanted to see, but it's only minor] with Admiral.

Edit @ Flareblitz: [Because I don't want to threadhog]
My opposition is not because it counters things. My opposition is because it's a move that's easy, and reliable, to 'spam' on switch-ins. Blissey shrugs off any Special Attack. Celebi takes Surf and Thunderbolt even better, and forces Krill out even if it had Ice Beam at full power anyway. The point is, Krill won't be countering anything extra, which makes it pointless, it's sole reason to be on the movepool is for it to be spammed as a counter comes in, deal a decent amount of damage to anything that isn't Blissey, Snorlax, or a Steel-type, and then the drawback made redunant because Krillowatt would switch out from whatever comes in ANYWAY. I do not vision a pokemon which causes whatever's in the flee, fires off a DM, and then switches out, fufilling the concept.

My previous post explains it's usefulness, it's Krillowatt's best 'Blind Fire' move, with a SE/NVE ratio equal to Surf, but no x4 Resists, No immunities, and a lot of the SE hits are things that may switch into Krillowatt, because Dragon just so happens to resist the STAB options, unlike Surf, which hits things that would usually switch out.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Think about your opposition to Draco Meteor from the perspective of Pokemon likely to switch into Krill. Celebi? You fire off a random Draco Meteor at Celebi. Celebi shrugs it off, takes the next ice beam with little issue due to Draco's SATK drop, and Recovers in your face, possibly paralyzing or Grass Knoting you along the way. Blissey? It doesn't care about any attacks on Special Krill. Bronzong? It PREFERS you to use Draco Meteor. I could go on, but I think you get the point. Please present concrete examples of counters to Krill that it beats with Draco Meteor that it cannot beat without. Because I can't think of any situation where using an UNSTAB'd attack that puts you at -2 would be at all useful unless it's against a Pokemon that you can't handle without it (like Kingdra).

 

[Str0ngbad]

So let me get this straight Raikaria. Ice Beam is needed for some reason that no one ever bothers to explain but you are worried about Draco Meteor murdering "Kril counters"?! If you expect this thing to have Ice Beam then a scarfed Flygon (your earlier example) would be a risky switch in anyway. The only things that Kril 'murders' with Draco Meteor are dragons which are all raped by Ice Beam barring Kingdra (which as was discussed earlier, the lesser dragon moves cannot deal with contrary to your claim) and to a lesser extent Latias while, again contrary to your post, Celebi will very much mind an Ice Beam from SpA Kril. Also, your point about Jirachi was terrible. How does Jirachi have more 4mss than this thing? He doesn't even come close! Jirachi has two terrible STABs. If Draco Meteor was half decent without STAB it would be on the majority of his sets. Additionally, with the coverage and speed that Kril has at his disposal I have a hard time believing that I will nearly always want to switch out unless I shoot myself in the foot with -2 SpA drop. Finally, something doesn't have to resist Draco Meteor to shrug it off. If your target has reasonable special bulk, which good Kril counters usually will, then it will absorb your Draco Meteor and then laugh as it sets up on your crippled CAP and recovers the mediocre damage. Heaven forbid it is a threat you were tailored for that resists Draco Meteor. Now you have to give them 2 turns of set-up before you can have Kril counter them. At that point it is too late. (1 turn to switch out and another to come back in.)

Still, the thing that is baffling me the most is how you can say that it needs Ice Beam and yet are upset because Draco Meteor will murder a few of those same targets while inviting your opponent to bring in a set-up threat. Maybe it would make more sense if I had some faint clue as to why everyone seems to think Ice Beam is necessary because as of now it seems to be some big secret.

 

[Objection]

Max special attack modest Life Orb CAP10 Dragon Pulse vs 252 HP/0 SpD Kingdra: 61.02% - 72.32%

vs 4 HP/0 SpD Kingdra: 73.97% - 87.67% (small chance of OHKO after SR)

Specs CAP10 Dragon Pulse vs 4 HP/0 SpD Kingdra: 84.93% - 100.68% (>75% chance of OHKO after SR)

Max attack adamant Life Orb Kingdra +1 Outrage vs 0 Hp/4 Def CAP10: 98.19% - 115.87%
Without Life Orb: 75.74% - 89.34%
+0 Outrage with Life Orb: 65.53% - 77.55%
Without Life Orb: 50.57% - 59.86%

Now, unless CAP10 isn't allowed to run Choice Specs (and it isn't written anywhere that it isn't allowed to run Choice Specs), Choice Specs Dragon Pulse is fine against Kingdra unless it has a Life Orb and uses Dragon Dance when CAP10 switches in.

Alternatively, one could run a Choice Scarf CAP10 and outspeed a +1 Kingdra. Yes, CAP10 won't get the OHKO with Dragon Pulse and yes, Kingdra can get the OHKO with Outrage. In which case, you send in whatever bulky Steel-type you have and beat Kingdra because of prior damage and because it's locked into Outrage.

Also, Trace is the better ability against Kingdra in case it tries to use Rain Dance.

 

[SinisterSamurai]

Rawr, Ice needed because I think so. Draco Meteor broken.

I've taken your post and re-arranged it so that the information is more easily and appropriately analyzed. You expressed a concerned about x1 effectiveness, so I included that as well.

WATER/ELECTRIC/DRAGON coverage

WATER/ELECTRIC/DRAGON coverage:
x4 on: Gyrados (E), [1]

x2 on: Aerodactyl (W/E), Gliscor (W), Heatran (W), Infernape (W), Hippowdon (W), Mamoswin (W), Tyranitar (W), Dragonite (D), Empoleon (E), Kingdra (D), Latias (D), Salamence (D), Starmie (E), Suicune (E), Tentacruel (E), Vaporeon (E), Togekiss (E), Skarmory (E), Ninjask (E), Flygon (D), [20, 5 of which are hit x2 only by Dragon]

x1 on: Breloom (D), Celebi (D), Roserade (D), Magnezone (W), Rotom-A (W/D), Electivire (W/D), Jolteon (W/D), Swampert (W/D), Bronzong (W/E), Forretress (W/E), Jirachi (W/E), Scizor (W/E), Lucario (W/E), Metagross (W/E), Zapdos (W/E/D) Shaymin (D), Shaymin Sky (E/D) [17, 9 are hit x1 by Dragon: 4 are Dragon only]

Resisted by:

WATER/ELECTRIC/ICE Coverage

WATER/ELECTRIC/ICE coverage:
x4 on Gliscor (I, Wx2), Dragonite (I), Gyrados (E), Salamence (I), Flygon (I), Shaymin Sky (I) [6!, 5 of which are hit by only Ice for x4]

x2 on Aerodactyl (W/E/I), Heatran (W), Infernape (W), Hippowdon (W/I), Mamoswin (W), Tyranitar (W), Breloom (I), Celebi (I), Empoleon (E), Latias (I), Starmie (E), Suicune (E), Tentacruel (E), Roserade (I), Vaporeon (E), Togekiss (E/I), Skarmory (E), Ninjask (E/I), Zapdos (I) Shaymin (I) [20, 9 are hit by Ice, 6 are hit x2 only by Ice].

x1 on: Kingdra (E/I), Magnezone (W), Rotom-A (W/I), Electivire (W/I), Jolteon (W/I), Swampert (W/I), Bronzong (W/E), Forretress (W/E), Jirachi (W/E), Scizor (W/E), Lucario (W/E), Metagross (W/E) [12, 5 are hit x1 by Ice, none are hit only x1 by Ice]

Resisted by:

When you consider 8 PP vs 16 PP, 90% accuracy vs 100% accuracy, and the fact that DM leaves you at -2, (forcing a switch on Krilowatt or forcing a Heart Swap, which would be a free turn against Physical attackers), I'm afraid I really don't see your point about Draco Meteor being broken or not fitting the concept. I also don't see your point about Ice Beam fitting the concept better or being required. Ice Beam may not hit quite as hard as Draco Meteor at x1, but the additional x2 and x4 coverage easily outclasses DM, and with less investment or luck needed.

Krilowatt needs one or the other in order to fit the concept. And Draco Meteor coverage fits the concept, not the flavor, better than Ice Beam.

Edit: I added Zapdos, Shaymin, and Sky Forme Shamyin, because they are listed here, and are not hit x1 by all four discussed types. I'll add more Pokes as I see them mentioned. Obviously, the more specific numbers haven't been crunched in my post, and I don't take into account any defensive bias.

 

[Korski]

Okay this is getting a little out of hand. Yes, movepool polls typically are decided by community opinion regarding moves that will rarely, if ever, be used (since competitive differences are non-existent), but Draco Meteor? Come on. It's not overpowered. It's not useful. It's nothing; in fact, I can reasonably say that the inclusion or exclusion of Draco Meteor from Krilowatt's movepool will have roughly the same effect as including or excluding something like Poison Jab or Mud Bomb. This can be shown quite clearly by those who are in favor of Draco Meteor arguing to death about how bad of an attacking option it is and by those opposed to Draco Meteor arguing to death about how much sheer damage it will do over the course of a battle. If this disparity isn't based completely on blind theorymon groupthink then I honestly have no idea what is so controversial about this move in a competitive sense.

There are, however, some actual key elements that separate these movepools from one another (not Draco Meteor) that should be being addressed here. For example, priority moves. My movepool has only Vacuum Wave, which exists only for the specified purposes of picking off weakened foes that can cause problems for entire teams, such as SD Lucario, SubPetaya Empoleon, ScarfTran, ScarfZone, and DD/ScarfTar. These are ferocious mid-late game cleaners, and for the most part may actually need priority to be beaten, especially if Krilowatt's been taking a few hits and can't withstand a powerful blow any longer.

EVEN SO, much like any other priority attack, it's very weak and is in most cases completely useless. But let's not imagine that any priority move, even Aqua Jet, is going to be useful to Kril. It just doesn't have the tools to abuse priority, which is why I didn't include them in an effort to keep Kril's movepool from being a bottomless pit of uncompetitive options. Looking at the usable priority in OU, we have Scizor's Bullet Punch (90 BP, base 130 Atk, CB, SD+LO), Lucario/Dragonite's Extremespeed (80 BP, base 110/134 Atk, SD, LO), Mamoswine's Ice Shard (60 BP, base 130 Atk, LO/CB), and Metagross's Bullet Punch (60 BP, base 135 Atk, CB, lead strategy). Let's even look at past CAPs' usable priority: Syclant's Ice Shard (60 BP, base 115 Atk, SD+LO, lead strategy), Revenankh's Shadow Sneak (60 BP, base 110 Atk, Bulk Up), Stratagem's Vacuum Wave (60 BP, base 120 SpA, LO), Colossoil's Sucker Punch (120 BP, base 122 Atk, LO). Now we have Krilowatt's STAB priority move, Aqua Jet (60 BP, base 84 Atk, LO). Factoring in the zero-loss from LO, we're still looking at a priority move in a class far below what is deemed acceptable in the OU environment. Hell, even an Adamant 252 Atk LO Ice Shard can't OHKO ScarfGon of all things, Rocks or no Rocks. And if that's not enough for you, Aqua Jet from that same Adamant LO spread has a <50% of 2HKOing ScarfTran if Stealth Rock is up.

tl;dr We gave Krilowatt none of the tools to abuse priority to any sort of competitive degree save for Trace and switching into Scizor, in which case you're taking 55% - 64.9% from CB U-turn to EV yourself such that you get enough power behind your priority attacks to actually do anything to the select few switch-ins that even care about your boosted priority attack and enough Speed to outrun the threats that don't. And stop bitching about Draco Meteor.

 

[SinisterSamurai]

Draco Meteor would see usage without Ice Beam on the set. And other moves would see more usage without Ice Beam on the set.

The plus of Draco Meteor is that you can counter all the dragons you would hit with ice, without needing Ice in the movepool. And not having Ice Beam in the movepool would greatly encourage the usage of other customizable sets, which fits the concept.

 

[SJCrew]

My issue with Draco Meteor doesn't really have anything to do with the move itself, but rather that it gives players one more reason to abuse Heart Swap, which honestly doesn't help the concept at all, phazes in about the same way Haze does, and allows Krilowatt to sweep if you intentionally let your opponent get CM or DD up.

In fact, I think with the surge of Krilowatt on CAP teams, people will be discouraged from running boosting moves in general, knowing the stupid little shrimp will be around the corner to steal them. It sounds ludicrous now, but I really do think that Draco Meteor is just the tip of the iceberg regarding this thing's issues.

Yes, we know this is all theorymon at the moment, but that's the best we can do until this is actually put to the test.

 

[Phi]

tl;dr We gave Krilowatt none of the tools to abuse priority to any sort of competitive degree save for Trace and switching into Scizor, in which case you're taking 55% - 64.9% from CB U-turn to EV yourself such that you get enough power behind your priority attacks to actually do anything to the select few switch-ins that even care about your boosted priority attack and enough Speed to outrun the threats that don't. And stop bitching about Draco Meteor.

Still, I think Krilowatt's movepool should be all about the little options we wouldn't normally use competitively. While all of his priority moves are pretty much useless in most situations, Vacuum Wave and Ice Shard especially I could see being incredibly useful in helping to stop DD versions of Tyranitar and Salamence, though about nothing else. That seems to be perfectly in line with the concept to me - if you want to be able to reliably take out those Pokemon, you can pack those moves, though you shouldn't blame anyone if they carry little else utility.
Basically yeah, I don't think Krilowatt should be able to abuse priorirty, but I don't think it's entirely useless to have it in a movepool.

My issue with Draco Meteor doesn't really have anything to do with the move itself, but rather that it gives players one more reason to abuse Heart Swap, which honestly doesn't help the concept at all, phazes in about the same way Haze does, and allows Krilowatt to sweep if you intentionally let your opponent get CM or DD up.

In fact, I think with the surge of Krilowatt on CAP teams, people will be discouraged from running boosting moves in general, knowing the stupid little shrimp will be around the corner to steal them. It sounds ludicrous now, but I really do think that Draco Meteor is just the tip of the Ice Berg regarding this thing's issues.

Yes, we know this is all theorymon at the moment, but that's the best we can do until this is actually put to the test.

Heart Swap takes up one valuable turn you could be doing something else. Especially in combination with draco meteor, it basically gives your opponent a free switch in to any physical attacker of their choice, since they won't mind the decrease in special attack at all. I guess yeah, you could carry superpower too, but at that point you're going mixed and have to sacrifice a bit of speed, power, or bulk that would let you stay in to abuse those decreases. Additionally, I just don't think Krilowatt stealing boosts is going to be that big of a problem - Krilowatt can't take advantage of every type of boost with the same set, so basically if your opponent's Krilowatt sweeps you with heart swapped boosts, it's your fault for not trying to scout out its set before you attempted a set up.

 

[Banryu]

May the best movepool win, but I'm not going to be shocked when the "gimmick" CounterCoat set wreaks havoc on everything but stat-up sweepers. Immunity to residual damage (Magic Guard) combined with those two moves makes that set a menace. Stall can't even touch it as a bonus, and as a last Pokemon the two moves have 64 PP between them, plus the number of turns you could stall out with Rest given they'd need direct attacks to overcome a likely PP advantage. Considering Krilowatt can reach Wobbuffett-esque HP levels (506 Max vs. 528 on standard 28 HP Wobba), the only thing keeping it from total menace is no Encore and a lack of trapping. Fortunately Whirlpool (on both movepools) is temporary trapping, but it can have the same effect, and Encore was banned.

I just want to address this really quickly here... First off, I think you're totally overestimating Krilowatt's potential to abuse CounterCoat. Honestly, I think they only way for them to be remotely as effective as you're claiming they could be on Kril is to have an incredibly stupid opponent. Counter and Mirror Coat, especially when together, require a great deal of prediction in order to use properly, and if you mess up, you're proper fucked. I know this, because for a long while I used one of the best Coaters in the metagame: Milotic (great Special bulk + access to Recover easily makes it the best user of this move, not counting Wobb and things that get MC and Counter both). It was good for occasional surprises, but after using it the first time my opponents knew it was coming and had absolutly no trouble playing around it. It's a one-time surprise at best and frankly, having both is basically just a waste of a moveslot.

Also, Kril isn't the only non-Wobb Pokemon to get CounterCoat-- Swampert gets it too, you know. And even though Swampert's overall bulk in terms of all its defensive stats isn't all that different from Kril's, how often do we see Swampert abusing CounterCoat, even WITH Rest? Never.

I think you would be right not to call Counter and MC gimmick moves, and I think they have they potential to be very useful, but not nearly as useful as you're saying (and you're saying they're pretty much broken, from what I can tell). Couter/Coat are one-time moves to remove a specific threat and that's all but it-- something that fits Kril's concept perfectly. If you run both, it's just taking up another slot in your movepool that you could use to hit something supereffectively, and if you run both AND Rest, you're just inviting all kinds of setup sweepers like Lucario, Salamence, Tyranitar... all these guys are gonna come in on Kril, ignore his attempts to Counter/Coat, and boost their Attack beyond Kril's defensive threshold before he can do anything back if he's stupid enough to stay in.

The bottom line with CounterCoat is that they're useful one time per match at best, but definitely not broken. Wobbuffet's Shadow Tag + Encore + Countercoat + bulk is what makes him broken, true, but let's not forget that Kril definitely lacks two of those traits.

In any case, DK, I respect your decision to leave CounterCoat out, in my case it just happens to be a difference of opinion. =/ *shrug* Sorry.

 

[SinisterSamurai]

If you run both, it's just taking up another slot in your movepool that you could use to hit something supereffectively, and if you run both AND Rest, you're just inviting all kinds of setup sweepers like Lucario, Salamence, Tyranitar... all these guys are gonna come in on Kril, ignore his attempts to Counter/Coat, and boost their Attack beyond Kril's defensive threshold before he can do anything back if he's stupid enough to stay in.

Krilowatt:
Magic Guard + Leftovers. EVs into HP will probably be the most helpful.

Surf/Waterfall(/Aquatail/Crabhammer)
Counter/Mirror Coat
Rest
Heart Swap

Have a baton passer set up Aquaring for Krilowatt. Maybe Rain Dance, too, maybe not. Krilowatt now has Leftovers + Aquaring for recovery.
Uses mostly Counter or Mirror Coat, until something tries to Stat-Up. The first thing that tries to stat-up will get Heart Swapped and possibly allow Krilowatt to sweep.

Forcing a switch on this Krilowatt will remove any stolen boosts, and the Baton Passed Aqua Ring. Rather than disabling it, it simply allows for another Heart Swap attempt without handing a boost to the opponent.

But like you said, it's all theorymon.

 

[SJCrew]

Heart Swap takes up one valuable turn you could be doing something else.

For what, boosting? lol yeah, if only. All I have to do is revenge kill a sweeper or something with Draco Meteor, then pretend it didn't happen by Heart Swapping "lol -sp. att" onto something like Celebi that tries to "counter" me. So I can basically kill that too. Isn't Celebi supposed to be one of Krilowatt's "counters"?

it basically gives your opponent a free switch in to any physical attacker of their choice, since they won't mind the decrease in special attack at all.

No, it doesn't give my opponent a free switch. First off, the physical attacker coming in has to not be weak to any of my moves, then it has to be able to kill me before I kill it back. I'm using Draco Meteor to kill whatever's in, and Heart Swapping it out if I see a special attacker. If it's something with

Additionally, I just don't think Krilowatt stealing boosts is going to be that big of a problem - Krilowatt can't take advantage of every type of boost with the same set, so basically if your opponent's Krilowatt sweeps you with heart swapped boosts, it's your fault for not trying to scout out its set before you attempted a set up.

How do you scout out Heart Swap? Do you really think I'm just gonna fire that shit out blindly? You're thinking like a newbie, not an experienced competitive player. I've used Heart Swap Manaphy to great effects in Ubers, as it punishes things like Mewtwo or Darkrai that either get too greedy with the boosts (Mewtwo) or possibly don't have a super effective move to cover it (Darkrai). If I play you again and you know I have it, then you can't stat up your sweeper at all without Krilowatt coming around the corner to fuck your shit up. Trying to use Crocune? If Krilowatt comes in, consider your ass phazed.

I'm not arguing that Heart Swap does everything at once, so don't even go there. I'm saying that it allows room for exactly what we don't want our CAP to do, which is phaze/sweep. Krilowatt shouldn't be a force of its own that discourages that keeps stat-boosting sweepers in general on their toes.

 

[Banryu]

Krilowatt:
Magic Guard + Leftovers. EVs into HP will probably be the most helpful.

Surf/Waterfall(/Aquatail/Crabhammer)
Counter/Mirror Coat
Rest
Heart Swap

Have a baton passer set up Aquaring for Krilowatt. Maybe Rain Dance, too, maybe not. Krilowatt now has Leftovers + Aquaring for recovery.
Uses mostly Counter or Mirror Coat, until something tries to Stat-Up. The first thing that tries to stat-up will get Heart Swapped and possibly allow Krilowatt to sweep.

Forcing a switch on this Krilowatt will remove any stolen boosts, and the Baton Passed Aqua Ring. Rather than disabling it, it simply allows for another Heart Swap attempt without handing a boost to the opponent.

But like you said, it's all theorymon.

It really IS all theorymon, and even a set like that becomes extremy situational, since you can only bounce attacks back on one side of the spectrum with that set, and even if you steal DD boosts or something, they're useless if you decide to run Surf.

That said, this is exactly the sort of hyper-situational (possibly too situational?) set that we want Kril to run. It can't work remotely well against everything, but would work exceptionally well against specific threats like CMcune or DDmence or something else (depending on which moves you run). Thus, er... proving my point.

....jeeeesh. I can't believe how much some people (not naming names here) are overthinking certain moves in here. Just pick a goddam set and let's try the moves out, for cripes' sake. Half the things being argued in here can't be said for sure until they're tried, and I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the things people are arguing about won't be half as effective in practice as they are in theory.

 

[Raikaria]

I've made my points, stated my opinion. Why people don't seem to understand that the 'life cycle' of Krillowatt will look like:

Switch In -> Foe Switches to Counter -> Switch Out

Is beyond me.

It's not about the damage, or the -2Sp.Attack Drop. It's about the fact that it basically has no downside when Krillowatt will probobly need to switch out regardless of using Draco Meteor or not.

@ SinisterSamurai

There was really no need for that insult, thank you very much. Humorous or not, I do not appreciate you reducing my argument to a trollish version, including grunts.

Ice Beam is not broken because it's got a FAR lower Base Power than Draco Meteor, which makes it a far less attractive option than Surf, Thunderbolt, or DM, to just fire off randomly on the inevitable switch. That's why Ice = Good, DM = Bad, in those words you put it in.

In addittion, Krillowatt needs eithr an Ice or Dragon move to handle Dragon-types in general, barring Kingdra. And Dragon Claw/Plse are ot powerful enough to get the job done against Bulky Mances, Dragonite, ect.

And, about Heart Swap not being useful after Draco Meteor, 2 checks to Krillowatt, Celebi and Latias, are Specially Based. -2 Sp.Attack will cripple them. Swampert utilises Surf and Ice Beam often, so the only issue will be Earthquake. Salamance is a whole lot less threatening when it's Fire Blasts are nutered.

Now, I'm not going to make the thread spin around in rings anymore. If anyone wants to keep argueing about my opinion, feel free to PM me, because the points for both sides have been made, and if we keep argueing in this thread, it'll just go around and around in circles.

Unless, of course, someone thinks of a new point, which isn't going round in rings.

 

[Drakhun]

For what, boosting? lol yeah, if only. All I have to do is revenge kill a sweeper or something with Draco Meteor, then pretend it didn't happen by Heart Swapping "lol -sp. att" onto something like Celebi that tries to "counter" me. So I can basically kill that too. Isn't Celebi supposed to be one of Krilowatt's "counters"?


No, it doesn't give my opponent a free switch. First off, the physical attacker coming in has to not be weak to any of my moves, then it has to be able to kill me before I kill it back. I'm using Draco Meteor to kill whatever's in, and Heart Swapping it out if I see a special attacker. If it's something with


How do you scout out Heart Swap? Do you really think I'm just gonna fire that shit out blindly? You're thinking like a newbie, not an experienced competitive player. I've used Heart Swap Manaphy to great effects in Ubers, as it punishes things like Mewtwo or Darkrai that either get too greedy with the boosts (Mewtwo) or possibly don't have a super effective move to cover it (Darkrai). If I play you again and you know I have it, then you can't stat up your sweeper at all without Krilowatt coming around the corner to fuck your shit up. Trying to use Crocune? If Krilowatt comes in, consider your ass phazed.

I'm not arguing that Heart Swap does everything at once, so don't even go there. I'm saying that it allows room for exactly what we don't want our CAP to do, which is phaze/sweep. Krilowatt shouldn't be a force of its own that discourages that keeps stat-boosting sweepers in general on their toes.

So, you're using a goody gimicky set give a -2 to celebii to counter it? Isn't the point of a utility counter to do things like that? And then this strategy only works once because next time they see it coming. You're really over-estimating the capabilities of this gimmick.

 

[beej]

Congrats for coming this far, Deck. Korski's and Jiba's movepools move on the final poll.