CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 3 - Secondary Typing Poll

[X-Act]

To be honest, I'm disappointed for two reasons.

Reason 1 is that I go to sleep, come back, and see the secondary type thread is CLOSED. I'm sure that thread didn't take more than 24 hours to be created and be closed. Wtf? I live in a different timezone than most of you, dammit. Please consider that. :(

Reason 2 is the secondary typing choice available, since I hate both, to be honest. The two biggest threats to Togekiss are Zapdos and Rotom-A, both of which have powerful Thunderbolts. Other people have obviously talk about this already. I don't see how Fighting/Dark or Fighting/Rock can switch into Zapdos and Rotom-A... CAP11 will just take a full-force STAB Thunderbolt on the switch... you don't need to be a genius to predict that. Okay, so it's not weak to it, but it's not resistant either. Unless you guys are already planning to give this thing something like Motor Drive or Volt Absorb (or Wonder Guard lol) to take care of this, I really do think that this CAP has not started on the right footing.

Or maybe I should think of this the other way: CAP11 is out, and it paves the way for Togekiss to come in. For what's worth, Zapdos can still switch in on the Fighting/Dark CAP11, especially on a predicted Fighting move, with relative impunity, and start firing Thunderbolts left right and centre even without waiting for Togekiss to come in. If the Fighting/Rock variety wins, then Rotom-A can still switch in (with even more impunity, since a Fighting move does zero to it). Even worse, it can Hydro Pump or Leaf Storm poor Fighting/Rock CAP11 if it is of the appropriate form...

I really wish I'm wrong in my analysis, but, right now, I really do not see how CAP11 will become Togekiss' perfect partner if it can neither switch into Zapdos/Rotom-A, nor setup Togekiss effectively. So please, if I'm wrong, do illuminate me.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

Wow, the poll is already up ? Don't forget that not everyone lives in America, 9 hours is really short.

Anyway, it seems Rock and Dark were chosen and there's no point questioning a choice that has already been made.

Between these two, Dark has the advantage to hit Rotom, Gengar and Starmie, so Togekiss could replace Aura Sphere with Flamethrower / Fire Blast to deal with Steels.

Rock only hits Zapdos harder and Togekiss' aversion for sandstorm mitigates the SpD boost. It keeps Bug resistances but gets a Steel weakness, so Scizor becomes a bigger threat to the duo. Ground weakness isn't better than Ghost, because Togekiss can't switch into EQ users.

 

[Azule]

Dark takes care of Rotom. But it honestly looks like a "Do you want to hit Zapdos or Rotom harder" thing.

 

[nibbletman]

I went for Rock as it just would make for a more interesting CaP.

For me it was the lesser of two evils as both have a big nasty Fighting weakness that shuts down the pairing.
However, in the case of /Dark, Fighting is its ONLY significant weakness, and seeing as Togekiss cannot switch into Fighting types very happily this really makes the synergy worse, somewhat defeating the objective of a 'perfect partner' pokemon.

I guess this will sound hypocritical as Rock also has a lot of weaknesses to add, which would probs make things worse, but this leads me onto the other point.
The previous few CaPs have really suffered from badass syndrome, in which they are so good at running generic sets that they end up not being used in their specific niche. If we want to avoid this and really test and balance the metagame, we should definitely not go for something that has high potential to run brilliantly under its own steam when it's supposed to work as a partner, hence Rock, a more challenging but unusual type should be selected.

The greater range of weaknesses and resistances means more switching opportunities as their strengths and weaknesses overlap more (check it yourself). For those of you scared about the indifference towards electricity, just remember that there are always abilities (such as Motor Drive) which can remedy this, and in fact could gel very nicely - eg. Togekiss NPs and then passes the boost to CaP11 as foe attempts to Twave or KO with Tbolt. Could be a very nice slow/mixed attacker in the making.

Think ancient fighting machine!

 

[Yllnath]

Like others before me, I also want to mention I'm fairly dissappointed in how things are going with this CAP.
First and foremost, I'm dissappointed in Fuzznip for ending the discussion thread so early, when I too am not from the states and I basically saw the thread being closed when I woke up.

However, what really bothered me is how Fuzznip ended that thread and started this poll with two options. I'm a big supporter of a strong TL model, as I feel that's a far more logical way to run an immersive CAP project. However, if you, Fuzznip, don't mention what is going on in your mind and just do things as you please without explaining why, why the hell are we having a discussion thread in the first place!
I don't like Electric, but in the discussion thread, there were at least 5 or so posts with really long and eloborate explanations why they thought Electric would support Togekiss well. Especially this CAP, there is no right or wrong. Their Electric choice isn't wrong by default. However, you only mentioned once, very briefly, without explanation that you didn't like Electric. With discussion threads foremost role being that the people try to pursuade the TL with logical comments so that their submission may get in favour with the TL, after your first "not very convincing turn-down" on the Electric type, people made many very good arguments as to why Electric would have been good. In my opinion, the case that was made for Electric was by far the most detailed one, much better than the cases made for Rock, for example.
And in the end, the thread just ended. Not a single line about why Rock and Dark were chosen were mentioned. Of course it's your privilege to just do whatever you want, but it makes you a very poor teamplayer minded leader. Hell, I have no idea why we even had a discussion thread, because it seems you had Dark and Rock on your mind from the very beginning.
Note, I didn't like Electric at all as a secondary typing, I just think that in terms of discussion, the Electric supporters made one of the best cases.

I'll probably get infracted for this, but even if I can agree with everyone that this CAP looks like it's turning into a shitstorm, and many believe that wrong choices were already made, I still feel that, no matter the circumstances and situations, that at least the TL should remain calm and calculating, expressing their views orderly until the end. If you start roughing up things, like an entire thread that usually runs at the very least 24 hours, just because it's not going the way you want it to go, how will that reflect on the users?
At the very least, keep making people aware of what it is you want from a thread at the very get go (when it seems you already had a strong vision about the secondary poll), or at least take your time to eloborate in details why something isn't worth consideration by you as the TL. And when it comes to decisions being made, like, your decision for the two types chosen, the least you could do is eloborate why you chose the above said two types. Let us know your chain of thoughts and what led you to believe this was the way to go.
How can we collaborate with your chain of thoughts if you barely made any arguments about what you wanted from a secondary type or where your preferences where, and why.
And I'm aware that most of you are on IRC and a lot probably gets discussed there, and maybe a lot of your decisions made where explained there or at least the most convicing arguments for your decisions came from IRC. But seriously, isn't this a forum project first and foremost? I live in a different timezone, work 40+ hours a week, (50 isn't rare) and have a lot of different things to do. I don't have time to be on IRC. That shouldn't mean I'm missing important discussion that only went on on IRC but wasn't posted in the forums.

I want to once more note that this wasn't a rant, it's constructive criticism. If any moderator other that Fuzznip feels this post is infraction worthy and should be deleted, at least make sure Fuzznip gets a copy of it.

As for on-topic, too bad mono-fighting type wasn't an option. I'm not sure as to why Dark was apparantly the only way on how to deal with Rotom. Rock Slide is already required on fighting types as per T-M requirements, for Zapdos, and quite a few fighting types get something like Payback or Crunch.
Even if this mono-fighting CAP would have nothing for Rotom, why is that such an issue? There are 4 more team mates that can deal with it, and Rotom for one is very easily dealt with by any decent pursuit user. Funny is that, as a supportive argument for the fighting weakness problem, there was mentioned, well, but fighting can be dealt with with a third teammate, just slap on Rotom. That argument is basically just as correct and/or faulty as my argument about how Rotom can be dealt with just as easily (and probably even way better, as Rotom is very easily taken out by a pursuiter, where as fighting types are usually mofo's that always take something down with them) by any team mate as well.
Of the two choices listed, Dark is arguably the better one, but both are terrible.
O well, too bad the discussion thread closed too early and posting comments on options that aren't in the poll here probably doesn't influence anything.

At least Dark is winning in a landslide. That's one relief.

 

[ssbbm]

I voted Dark because I want to make sure the whole combination would not fall apart when faced with bulky waters. Even though, I still feel that a Dark/Fighting type will be very hard to balance - we run a big risk of it being too overpowering by itself, as its STABs, when combined, provide an almost unresisted coverage, not to mention the fact that it will be a surefire counter to the Rotom forms, as well as Blissey, hurting very many stall teams by itself.

 

[Frizy]

Yllnath, I was going to make a massive post ripping the living horse shit out of you, but I honestly couldn't be bothered. But let me just say this, Fuzznip is the TL, he can do whatever the hell he feels is best for the cap. If many people vote type X over Y, but he is not convinced that X is more beneficial than Y, he has the power to chose type Y. This cap is turning into a shitstorm because of how moronic people can be, just mindlessly voting with a groundless base. Oh and the discussion thread was closed early because of the aforementioned problem, it was a complete shitstorm and really, Fuzz was doing us a favour. By the way, just a little note, it's "oh", not "O", not hard to type an extra letter. Apologies if I shouldn't be posting this because it's not on-topic, I just feel I had to reply too that. I would contribute to the thread, but I haven't really been keeping up with the discussion that much

 

[peng]

With Togekiss already being fairly weak to Scizor, taking 60% + from Superpower and around 45% from Bullet Punch, I'm surprised that the 2 types Fuzznip has decided to bring forward are weak to 2 of Scizor's 3 main attacking types (steel, bug fighting), meaning without huge defensive stats (140+), SD, and indeed CB variants could wreck this Core. Obviously you have 4 other pokemon to deal with this, but no other potent core has no steel/fighting resistance.

Pretty much mimicking what X-Act has already said, it's annoying and fairly ignorant that the Discussion thread was down within 10 hours of it going up, and because of that pretty much every European contributor was excluded from giving an input. Having looked through the thread, obviously Fuzznip was annoyed in the way that the CAP was going, and with very good reason. If I was in his place, I would be annoyed too, but I don't think him not liking the current discussion was reason enough for him to take down the thread and put forward the 2 choices that he obviously wanted from the beginning. I respect Fuzznip's decision in that Dark/Rock are probably 2 of the best Offensive secondary Typings for CAP11, but I do feel that at least an option which gave a fighting resistance would have been a better option, seeing as that was the most discussed point when we first analyzed what caused Togekiss problems.

Anyway, I'm voting for Dark, as double Bullet Bunch susceptibility isn't cool.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

I don't think it is the right time and place to question the TL's choices or the CAP process itself. I know that everything didn't go as it was planned, but I don't think it's the TL's fault and even if it was, for the sake of this project, we should at least wait for the end of this CAP. I have my idea on what went wrong, but it's too late anyway, so let's just trust the TL and keep our objections for ourselves until we can see the whole picture.

EDIT : woops, should have refreshed before writing, Frizy was faster. Please don't respond to this post (or Frizy's), i don't want this thread to derail.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

I support Dark because of the excellent coverage. Bot Croak and Cross can be felled by Air Slash(though they must lack priority and Scarf). I suggest that people remember that these 2 Pokemon are not going to be a team by themselves; you have 4 teammates to tie up any loose ends.

Also, I agree with X-Act. My timezone is even worse than his from an American point of view(+5:30 GMT), so yeah. It would be nice if the future discussions lasted like, 48 hours at least. Just throwing that out.

 

[Bughouse]

Fighting/Dark might make it Rotom-A's perfect mate. Rotom and CAP11 would cover eachother's weaknesses perfectly.

This might be a problem... CAP 11 would partner perfectly with Rotom and thus no one would partner it with Togekiss.

 

[Elgoo]

I voted dark. It hits a lot of good stuff for neutral and takes out rotom/gengar/starmie. Both options are weak to fighting so meh.

 

[Objection]

This might be a problem... CAP 11 would partner perfectly with Rotom and thus no one would partner it with Togekiss.

If we make a perfect mate for Togekiss and then it gets used more often alongside Rotom or Zapdos or Jirachi or whatever, that says more about Togekiss than it does about the CAP. The best thing we can do for now is focus on making a pokemon that partners well with Togekiss and if, come playtesting, CAP11 partners better with other pokemon, then we either take the effectiveness of Togekiss with CAP11 as a measure of success, or we admit that we were never going to succeed.

From the available options, it seems that the purpose of the secondary typing is to provide good STAB moreso than good resistances. Looking at the counters section of Togekiss' analysis for ideas, Dark-type attacks are particularly good against Cresselia, Gengar and Rotom-A, and Rock-type attacks are particularly good against Zapdos, Salamence, Gyarados and Dragonite. However, Rock STAB isn't going to be useful against any of the pokemon it hits super effectively because, with the possible exception of Zapdos, these pokemon always carry moves that hit Rock-types super effectively. Meanwhile, Dark STAB is undoubtedly useful against Cresselia and Rotom-A, and its usefulness against Gengar depends on whether or not Gengar has any Fighting-type moves.

With that in mind, Dark gets my vote.

 

[black_cotton]

none of my supported types made through the second poll discussion, oh well we cannot win always, and even though sometimes i do not agree with TL decisions i'll respect them. I understand ,looking previous posts of Fuzznip, that his idea is to make cap11 and togekiss a offensive duo.

i and the majority of the community seems to have the same opinion, the best offensive combo right know would be dark/fighting. Voted Dark.

 

[ungulateman]

None of the types I supported got through to this point, and I'm dissapointed in how rushed this was. I suspect this CAP is going to end badly.

Voted Dark after a quick think over what it hits, and noticed how mch better it was doing in the polls.

 

[Sachetorte]

I voted Rock... Dark/Fighting doesn't have any benefit to being with Togekiss. Yeah, it can hit Rotom and Gengar, but what would Togekiss do for CAP11? Despite the weaknesses, Rock/Fighting at least has that synergy...

I honestly don't feel for either option. I don't really like where this CAP is going...

 

[Chameleon]

I don't really like either option right now.

Fighting/Dark: Helps us beat rotom, cresselia, and starmie, but has no defensive syneregy with Togekiss at all except a rock resist. Dark also helps beat many of gyarados' counters, as well as help other pokemon like previous posts have mentioned.

Fighting/Rock: Lures some attacks for togekiss and has nice stab attacks, but I am not comfortable on relying on sand to help our special defending issues. Not all teams carry T-tar or Hippodown, and if we have to for the sake of the duo, it is really a trio. Togekiss doesn't like sand either. Then there's scizor who isn't crippled by paralysis. Still, at least we lure EQ and grass types for kiss.

The mandatory fighting weakness bothers me. But I actually think rock will be more useful, because we need synergy with togekiss more than other pokemon.

 

[dxiyczk]

Okay I'll change my tune a little then. Since Zapdos seemed to be a huge threat in the discussion thread, we can't forget that Fighting/Dark is Flying weak. Even the standard defensive set, without a single attack EV, Zapdos does 44.3-53.1% to resttalk Machamp, for perspective. So even with a -Electric ability like volt absorb or great special defense, Cap11 would still be in danger. It's not a huge change for Dos to run this as an option if this pair became popular (which I don't see it doing).

I've already voiced my opinion on why a water-weak pokemon would be a huge gap in this 'core.' Suicune and vaporeon easily beat it, and some Swampert can curse as rock Cap switches out (and also hit Kiss with neutral STAB EQ on predicted roosts). Rock also lets the top OU pokemon walk all over this set, like I've said before, Scizor isn't a hard counter to Kiss, but a pretty good check.

Holding my vote because dark will win anyway, because dark pokemon are 'cool.'

 

[Wikey]

If we make a perfect mate for Togekiss and then it gets used more often alongside Rotom or Zapdos or Jirachi or whatever, that says more about Togekiss than it does about the CAP. The best thing we can do for now is focus on making a pokemon that partners well with Togekiss and if, come playtesting, CAP11 partners better with other pokemon, then we either take the effectiveness of Togekiss with CAP11 as a measure of success, or we admit that we were never going to succeed.

I disagree. That's like saying that because Hippodown doesn't get used alongside Gengar that means Hippo isn't very good when the reality is that they just have no synergy together.

@Frizy: That's a pretty poor post. Why would you attack someone for reasonably and maturely voicing their opinion? And to take a cheap shot at his spelling when he said he wasn't from the States so he's possibly not a native speaker AND it isnt even that serious a mistake? (o is a word btw) Honestly, he makes a good point, it's not fair that our non-American members didn't get to contribute because a few people were idiots. If you look at both typing threads they were both dominated by a few people making a lot of bad posts. Saying the same things over and over while making bad arguments and making basic type chart mistakes like saying Rock is good because it resists Ice or Dark is good because it lures Ghost moves for kiss to come in on. The question isn't whether or not there was a problem; we all know there was. The question is what the TL should have done about it. He chose to lock the thread and start the poll. Some are voicing their opinion that this isnt fair to those who live in other time zone. Most people just want some kind of statement explaining why this action was chosen over something like deleting posts and infracting users.

 

[The Pokemon Pimp]

I voted Dark. Relying on SS for a Special Defense boost necessitates a Sand Streamer for the most part and so hurts the "perfect mate" image as defined by DougJustDoug.

On a different note, Fuzznip is the TL and you gotta respect Fuzz as such. I didn't realize the discussion thread had ended until just now, but there's probably a justification as to why Fuzznip ended the discussion early- possibly people have already stated their points to the point of redundancy or it turned into a flame war.

That sort of sucks for the people that missed the discussion and feel blindsided, but the best those people and I can do is to continue to help in CAP11 and turn this shitfest around.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

Yeah, I'd have to agree that CAP 11 is degenerating into a flame war. Try to keep it on topic.

Personally I voted Dark because of how well it counters Rotom. Togekiss also has perfect SE Flying STAB against two counters to Fighting/Dark, namely Toxicroak and Heracross. Someone also brought up how both secondary typings lead to a horrible Scizor weakness, and that nobody resists the combo of Fighting/Bug/Steel attacks. I bring Rotom into the spotlight.

We don't have to sweep with two Pokemon, and I think that whichever option wins out, CAP 11+Togekiss+Rotom would provide fearsome coverage and great support all around. Especially when you consider that Rotom can be a defensive Statuser, supporting FlinchHax Kiss or NP Kiss. This leaves CAP 11 and Togekiss open to sweep.

Sorry if that was considered poll jumping, I just thought I'd bring that up.

 

[Fuzznip]

I'd like to address a few of the concerns made painfully apparent in this thread.

First, I want to respond to X-Act's post and say that I am regretful of closing the discussion thread early. These threads should be open for a full 24 hours, both out of tradition and out of respect for our friends overseas that simply can't be on when we're on. I will make sure that all future threads are open for at least the full 24 hours here on in.

However, I'd like to take this moment to explain exactly why I closed that thread early. Remember, you guys are not supposed to convince each other of slate options for the CAP. You are supposed to convince me, the TL. I am not always on the forums 24/7, which means that I cannot deal with all of the problematic posts all of the time. I rely on these discussions to be done in a civil manner while I'm gone, and all TLs reserve the right to punish users who do not do so. After posting a few warnings, I was extremely bothered that they were blatantly ignored, so much so that I just had to close the thread. In retrospect, I should have just deleted posts and tried to push it back on topic that way. I understand that now.

Finally, I'd like to address the direction of this CAP, which people have put in question. I wanted to, in the main typing slate, choose a variety of options that made sense to me for assorted reasons (I chose defensive reasons and offensive reasons), and then let the poll decide it. Fighting was not chosen because "it can remove the need for Togekiss to run Aura Sphere," it was chosen because I felt that its defensive versatility balanced its offensive versatility, and that it could help puncture Blissey and switch in on Tyranitar. I was not expecting Fighting to win, I'll be honest, but it did. We have to deal with that.

With this slate, I wanted something that complemented Togekiss offensively since most of what makes Fighting good came from neutrality to a lot of Togekiss's weaknesses and resistance to Rock. For this reason, I was considering Ice-, Rock-, and Dark-type. I recognize that none of these options resist Electric-type attacks, but I really want to focus this CAP in the direction of being offensive. I want something that may not be able to come in directly on all of Togekiss's weaknesses, but once in, it can devastate the things that Togekiss hates and put the opponent in a rough situation; Should they sacrifice what they have that can beat Togekiss or sacrifice something else on their team? That is my direction with this CAP, and I hope that you can all understand the differences that it might have with what you all hoped this CAP would be.

We are exploring an offensive core, not a defensive one. That means that we do not have to cover every weakness Togekiss has and vice versa. We need to threaten the other Pokemon's counters and keep pressure on in order to force the opponent into that tight situation, the reason why I chose Dark and Rock as my slate.

Now, please, continue with the discussion, but remember that attacking this CAP, the direction I would like to see the CAP move in, or any other discussing member of the community is against the rules. I hope that I have helped clarify my stance with this post and that you all will understand where I am coming from.

Thank you.

 

[Icy Vegeta]

I'd like to address a few of the concerns made painfully apparent in this thread.

First, I want to respond to X-Act's post and say that I am regretful of closing the discussion thread early. These threads should be open for a full 24 hours, both out of tradition and out of respect for our friends overseas that simply can't be on when we're on. I will make sure that all future threads are open for at least the full 24 hours here on in.

However, I'd like to take this moment to explain exactly why I closed that thread early. Remember, you guys are not supposed to convince each other of slate options for the CAP. You are supposed to convince me, the TL. I am not always on the forums 24/7, which means that I cannot deal with all of the problematic posts all of the time. I rely on these discussions to be done in a civil manner while I'm gone, and all TLs reserve the right to punish users who do not do so. After posting a few warnings, I was extremely bothered that they were blatantly ignored, so much so that I just had to close the thread. In retrospect, I should have just deleted posts and tried to push it back on topic that way. I understand that now.

Finally, I'd like to address the direction of this CAP, which people have put in question. I wanted to, in the main typing slate, choose a variety of options that made sense to me for assorted reasons (I chose defensive reasons and offensive reasons), and then let the poll decide it. Fighting was not chosen because "it can remove the need for Togekiss to run Aura Sphere," it was chosen because I felt that its defensive versatility balanced its offensive versatility, and that it could help puncture Blissey and switch in on Tyranitar. I was not expecting Fighting to win, I'll be honest, but it did. We have to deal with that.

With this slate, I wanted something that complemented Togekiss offensively since most of what makes Fighting good came from neutrality to a lot of Togekiss's weaknesses and resistance to Rock. For this reason, I was considering Ice-, Rock-, and Dark-type. I recognize that none of these options resist Electric-type attacks, but I really want to focus this CAP in the direction of being offensive. I want something that may not be able to come in directly on all of Togekiss's weaknesses, but once in, it can devastate the things that Togekiss hates and put the opponent in a rough situation; Should they sacrifice what they have that can beat Togekiss or sacrifice something else on their team? That is my direction with this CAP, and I hope that you can all understand the differences that it might have with what you all hoped this CAP would be.

We are exploring an offensive core, not a defensive one. That means that we do not have to cover every weakness Togekiss has and vice versa. We need to threaten the other Pokemon's counters and keep pressure on in order to force the opponent into that tight situation, the reason why I chose Dark and Rock as my slate.

Now, please, continue with the discussion, but remember that attacking this CAP, the direction I would like to see the CAP move in, or any other discussing member of the community is against the rules. I hope that I have helped clarify my stance with this post and that you all will understand where I am coming from.

Thank you.

Excuse me if you consider me out of line mentioning this, but isn't it for the community to decide whether or not we want a Defensive, or Offensive core? From what I understand in CAPs in the past, the people vote on the stat biases in a poll. I consider this to be poll-jumping by nature, and I really don't understand why you chose to reveal that point.

Please note I am not taking any personal vendettas against you, or this project. I am merely observing things I have seen in the past.

~ Icy Vegeta

 

[Fuzznip]

Icy Vegeta, it was decided that this Togekiss + CAP 11 core will be primarily offensive with key defensive/supportive synergies in the Concept Assessment 2 thread.

 

[Shiny Noctowl]

Fighting/Dark because that combination allows it to switch into Rotom and Starmie without taking much damage and then hit back with super effective attacks. Also, Fighting and Dark do at least neutral damage to most Pokémon; the few which resist both types (Heracross and Toxicroak) are weak to Togekiss's Flying attacks.