Without seeing a full moveset, it's hard to say with certainty, but I'm pretty sure CAP11 isn't going to do much to threaten Zapdos. Which is too bad because Zapdos is a great pokemon to beat out Togekiss anyway.
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CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 8 - Counters Discussion
- Thread starter Fuzznip
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Rhys DeAnno
Slacking Off
If we wish to prevent Zapdos from countering CAP11, the addition of Ice Beam, or simply the use of HP Ice, might be used to discourage it.
Ice Beam with Neutral 252 SpA LO:
Vs Offensive Zapdos: 78.5-92.8%
Vs Physically Defensive: 65.8-77.8%
Vs Specially Defensive: 47-55.9%
HP Ice with Neutral 252 SpA LO:
Vs Offensive Zapdos: 58.6-69.2%
Vs Physically Defensive: 49.1-58%
Vs Specially Defensive: 35.5-41.8%
Most common versions of Zapdos will be outrun and crippled or killed by Ice Beam with Rocks on the field, and even Specially Defensive Zapdos would be very ill advised trying to roost off ice beam damage instead of going for a KO. Even HP Ice is quite threatening with Rocks to all but a healthy specially bulky Zapdos (especially considering that if its coming in and not revenging it will also be likely taking a Dark or Fighting STAB). This combined with the CAPs defenses against paralysis and naturally higher speed (preventing roost stalling) means that most Zapdos are a more of a check than a counter if HP Ice/Ice Beam become popular on CAP 11 sets.
Ice Beam with Neutral 252 SpA LO:
Vs Offensive Zapdos: 78.5-92.8%
Vs Physically Defensive: 65.8-77.8%
Vs Specially Defensive: 47-55.9%
HP Ice with Neutral 252 SpA LO:
Vs Offensive Zapdos: 58.6-69.2%
Vs Physically Defensive: 49.1-58%
Vs Specially Defensive: 35.5-41.8%
Most common versions of Zapdos will be outrun and crippled or killed by Ice Beam with Rocks on the field, and even Specially Defensive Zapdos would be very ill advised trying to roost off ice beam damage instead of going for a KO. Even HP Ice is quite threatening with Rocks to all but a healthy specially bulky Zapdos (especially considering that if its coming in and not revenging it will also be likely taking a Dark or Fighting STAB). This combined with the CAPs defenses against paralysis and naturally higher speed (preventing roost stalling) means that most Zapdos are a more of a check than a counter if HP Ice/Ice Beam become popular on CAP 11 sets.
Machamp looks like it can switch in on Dark Pulse (I checked the Choice Band set), take an Aura Sphere, and OHKO with Dynamicpunch. I think Machamp could counter it well (Except when CAP11 gains something like Air Slash or Psychic)
I'd like to address how I believe the priorities should be set for this Pokémon. Before I do this, I'd like to distinguish between a technically uncounterable Pokémon/partnership and a significantly uncounterable Pokémon/group. The former has checks that are so reliable that they might as well be counters most of the time. This happens because, to beat the prospective check, the Pokémon/group has to run an entirely different set, or replace a move with an inferior one as far as beating multiple more popular threats is concerned. The latter has checks that aren't so reliable because the Pokémon/group doesn't have to bend over backwards and vary more than maybe one approximately equally valid move to beat each check. Essentially, this is the difference between top OUs like Gengar, Infernape and Lucario, and the recently banned suspects Lati@s, Salamence, Garchomp, etc.
Now for the priorities:
1. The partnership should be significantly uncounterable by one Pokémon. I'm basically echoing bugmaniacbob here, with the "this partnership will have checks regardless" argument, but I do believe that this is vital for the pairing's success. People often look at counters to defensive cores and decide that this pairing should have a counter as well, but defensive cores can beat their counters with prediction regardless, while an offensive core like this one doesn't have such a luxury. To have two Pokémon beaten by one just feels wrong for a combo that's supposed to be delivering a similar return to the opponent.
2. The partnership should be technically uncounterable by a rival pairing. Let's face it. This pairing will have many rivals in OU. Between SkarmBliss, CeleTran and GyaraJolt the only way for this pairing to fit is if it can give all of them something to think hard about. If a certain pairing beats this one reliably, then people will just spam that pairing and win. But I don't think that beating all rival pairing should be an easy task. We don't want this pairing to be broken, now!
3. Togekiss should do for CAP 11 what CAP 11 does for Togekiss. By this, I mean the following:
4. The partnership of Togekiss + CAP 11 should be decidedly superior to partnerships of Togekiss + different Pokémon or different Pokémon + CAP 11. Of course, this refers to all the warnings about pairing CAP 11 with Gyarados, Zapdos, Rotom-A, etc. I've put this lowest because I truly believe that the other three are more pressing and more doable. If we can't achieve this without compromising on the other three, that's too bad, I suppose, but I think that we can achieve this.
I'll be assuming that the common set for CAP 11 will be the following:
CAP 11 @ Life Orb
4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Hasty/Naive
Aura Sphere
Dark Pulse
Close Combat
Taunt
In addition, reachzero seems to have done the sweeping assessment that I would have done, so I'll trust his judgment instead of doing it myself only to result in an assessment that's a repeat or an inferior job.
This is already taking a long time to post, so I'll leave it here for now and maybe edit this post with specific examples later.
Now for the priorities:
1. The partnership should be significantly uncounterable by one Pokémon. I'm basically echoing bugmaniacbob here, with the "this partnership will have checks regardless" argument, but I do believe that this is vital for the pairing's success. People often look at counters to defensive cores and decide that this pairing should have a counter as well, but defensive cores can beat their counters with prediction regardless, while an offensive core like this one doesn't have such a luxury. To have two Pokémon beaten by one just feels wrong for a combo that's supposed to be delivering a similar return to the opponent.
2. The partnership should be technically uncounterable by a rival pairing. Let's face it. This pairing will have many rivals in OU. Between SkarmBliss, CeleTran and GyaraJolt the only way for this pairing to fit is if it can give all of them something to think hard about. If a certain pairing beats this one reliably, then people will just spam that pairing and win. But I don't think that beating all rival pairing should be an easy task. We don't want this pairing to be broken, now!
3. Togekiss should do for CAP 11 what CAP 11 does for Togekiss. By this, I mean the following:
It would be great if Togekiss could do the same thing to CAP 11's counters. The solution to this would be to reduce the ability of some of CAP 11's prospective checks to check it. If a CAP 11 counter is just going to bolt when Togekiss comes in, it shouldn't be a counter.Fuzznip said:
4. The partnership of Togekiss + CAP 11 should be decidedly superior to partnerships of Togekiss + different Pokémon or different Pokémon + CAP 11. Of course, this refers to all the warnings about pairing CAP 11 with Gyarados, Zapdos, Rotom-A, etc. I've put this lowest because I truly believe that the other three are more pressing and more doable. If we can't achieve this without compromising on the other three, that's too bad, I suppose, but I think that we can achieve this.
I'll be assuming that the common set for CAP 11 will be the following:
CAP 11 @ Life Orb
4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Hasty/Naive
Aura Sphere
Dark Pulse
Close Combat
Taunt
In addition, reachzero seems to have done the sweeping assessment that I would have done, so I'll trust his judgment instead of doing it myself only to result in an assessment that's a repeat or an inferior job.
This is already taking a long time to post, so I'll leave it here for now and maybe edit this post with specific examples later.
@Rhys: Most Zapdos don't carry a Flying move too and with some bulky EV investment and (threadjumping a little) a reliable recovery move, Zapdos won't be much of a defensive threat anymore. Hence I believe it should not really be a solid counter.
We want this duo to be technically uncounterable, if I get your point right?
We want this duo to be technically uncounterable, if I get your point right?
Zapdos may not be a solid counter, but it still has the tools it needs to threaten the duo. It's true that few Zapdos have an offensive flying move, but I think that could change when CAP11 comes into force. Flying is actually a solid attacking type and it is maligned more than it deserves. If Zapdos learned air slash, I think more people would consider giving it a flying move. As it stands, HP flying is what will end up on the moveset, not drill peck, as the latter works off an inferior attack stat while HP flying fits in with Zapdos's special bent. Drill peck only becomes more useful with substantial attack investment, which is unlikely to occur, since Zapdos works best with max SpA and Speed.
I've been avoiding this topic because I really dislike it, but I think it's time I weigh in my thoughts. First and foremost, I want to address that the way many people are handling this thread is incorrect! Counters Discussion, regardless of how it sounds, is not where we post every Gamefreak-given Pokemon that might give our CAP (or in CAP11's case, our core as well) trouble. We post Pokemon that we want or do not want to counter or check our CAP/Core. We need to hone in on this or our text here will be a waste of time.
CAP11 should be checked by bulky Water-type Pokemon
Deck_Knight brought this up and makes a strong point. I want Suicune, Vaporeon, and Swampert (among the others) to give CAP11 a modest amount of trouble. If they come in at full HP, CAP11 should be forced to flee. One of the nice things about this is that if CAP11 is checked by bulky Water-types, it will not pair phenomenally with Gyarados and GyaraVire / GyaraJolt will be far better for Gyarados. Serendipitously, Togekiss possesses the special bulk and healing to take on and beat these bulky Water-types if they lack Ice Beam or lack the offensive power to break through Togekiss. (Which is frequent)
CAP11 should be soft countered by Heracross
A soft counter is basically a check that can deal with most of the "common" sets of a Pokemon. There exist basically no hard counters in all of Pokemon outside of the really obvious ones. (Protect hard-countering Slaking) Gliscor is a good in-game example of a soft counter to Lucario, who can, if he wants to forfeit important coverage, run Ice Punch on SD sets. Anyway, Heracross is important here for two reasons:
CAP11 should not be soft countered by Zapdos
This is important for many of the same reasons that others in this thread have noted. Interestingly, physically defensive Zapdos is 2HKOed after SR by HPIce and is dealt nearly 50% damage, meaning that it cannot Roost out CAP11. This is also important because it means that Zapdos in a CAP11 metagame will definitely be running special bulk. If we assume the presence of a stronger super effective attack on CAP11, then even specially defensive Zapdos can not Roost in the face of CAP11. That may be important for later stages of the CAP process. Regardless, I feel that specially defensive Zapdos in particular should not be a full stop to CAP11. (Despite the immunity to Thunderbolt) SubRoost should not be able to Toxic stall CAP11 out either.
Those are the 3 most important checks and counters I wanted to bring up. Because of CAP11's type coverage, even most dedicated walls will be hit for serious damage by one of Fighting- or Dark-type. Not that this is a bad thing, it just keeps CAP11 from being easily soft countered by anything else in the metagame. Anything that resists one of the STABs and is faster than CAP11 can come in and check it, such as Choice Scarf Tyranitar and Starmie, but heavily relies on prediction to do so. I think that this idea is fine and a given, so it doesn't merit further focused discussion in this thread.
CAP11 should be checked by bulky Water-type Pokemon
Deck_Knight brought this up and makes a strong point. I want Suicune, Vaporeon, and Swampert (among the others) to give CAP11 a modest amount of trouble. If they come in at full HP, CAP11 should be forced to flee. One of the nice things about this is that if CAP11 is checked by bulky Water-types, it will not pair phenomenally with Gyarados and GyaraVire / GyaraJolt will be far better for Gyarados. Serendipitously, Togekiss possesses the special bulk and healing to take on and beat these bulky Water-types if they lack Ice Beam or lack the offensive power to break through Togekiss. (Which is frequent)
CAP11 should be soft countered by Heracross
A soft counter is basically a check that can deal with most of the "common" sets of a Pokemon. There exist basically no hard counters in all of Pokemon outside of the really obvious ones. (Protect hard-countering Slaking) Gliscor is a good in-game example of a soft counter to Lucario, who can, if he wants to forfeit important coverage, run Ice Punch on SD sets. Anyway, Heracross is important here for two reasons:
- Togekiss maims Heracross if she hits with an Air Slash
- Heracross is the only OU Pokemon that resists both of CAP11's STAB attacking types
CAP11 should not be soft countered by Zapdos
This is important for many of the same reasons that others in this thread have noted. Interestingly, physically defensive Zapdos is 2HKOed after SR by HPIce and is dealt nearly 50% damage, meaning that it cannot Roost out CAP11. This is also important because it means that Zapdos in a CAP11 metagame will definitely be running special bulk. If we assume the presence of a stronger super effective attack on CAP11, then even specially defensive Zapdos can not Roost in the face of CAP11. That may be important for later stages of the CAP process. Regardless, I feel that specially defensive Zapdos in particular should not be a full stop to CAP11. (Despite the immunity to Thunderbolt) SubRoost should not be able to Toxic stall CAP11 out either.
Those are the 3 most important checks and counters I wanted to bring up. Because of CAP11's type coverage, even most dedicated walls will be hit for serious damage by one of Fighting- or Dark-type. Not that this is a bad thing, it just keeps CAP11 from being easily soft countered by anything else in the metagame. Anything that resists one of the STABs and is faster than CAP11 can come in and check it, such as Choice Scarf Tyranitar and Starmie, but heavily relies on prediction to do so. I think that this idea is fine and a given, so it doesn't merit further focused discussion in this thread.
Okay, I'm certain this thread has reached its end. I'm kind of disappointed in people suggesting absurd checks/counters like Choice Band Metagross, because that's not really what the goal of this thread is for. We're searching for who should counter ad who should check CAP 11/+ Togekiss.
Anyway, the one biggest group of Pokemon this CAP needs to be countered by are bulky Waters. This will allow us to prevent the use of Gyarados + CAP 11 and actually improve the Togekiss + CAP 11 core, as Togekiss can single-handedly defeat almost all of them (though it may take some time to defeat CroCune). This is extremely important for the success of this concept.
I'm also in an agreement that we should try to keep Zapdos from countering CAP 11 easily. It's one of the most important Pokemon out there who gives Togekiss endless trouble, and despite CAP 11 packing a Thunderbolt immunity, other variations of Zapdos can be dangerous, such as SubRoost and Life Orb.
Those are the two important points I wanted to conclude. This thread is now closed.
Anyway, the one biggest group of Pokemon this CAP needs to be countered by are bulky Waters. This will allow us to prevent the use of Gyarados + CAP 11 and actually improve the Togekiss + CAP 11 core, as Togekiss can single-handedly defeat almost all of them (though it may take some time to defeat CroCune). This is extremely important for the success of this concept.
I'm also in an agreement that we should try to keep Zapdos from countering CAP 11 easily. It's one of the most important Pokemon out there who gives Togekiss endless trouble, and despite CAP 11 packing a Thunderbolt immunity, other variations of Zapdos can be dangerous, such as SubRoost and Life Orb.
Those are the two important points I wanted to conclude. This thread is now closed.
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