CAP 11 CAP 11 - Secondary Typing Discussion

[NARFNra]

No, this is CAP, we don't have to give it anything we don't want to.

What you're saying is that if it's a Dragon, then it has to be broken. This is incorrect. We know that Dragon is an amazing offensive type, and we will have to deal with that fact accordingly.

If Dragon Claw/Dragon Pulse was the best it can muster, would it still seem as broken to you?

There are movepool rules. They require you to learn certain moves if you are a certain type. I linked to them.

Also firecape, while I've generally been on your side, could you stop acting like everyone who doesn't agree with you is your blood enemy? It's getting annoying.

They need revising? After we spent around 4 damn weeks of PR trying to come to a consensus on them? Blah, I don't care anymore.

Dragon/Fighting or Electric/Fighting are our only choices it seems. None look very appetizing, and if I recall correctly the Ice weakness "wastes an ability" according to Yoki in the Main Type poll. therefore, Electric/Fighting or Dark/Fighting is basically all we've got.

 

[Chateau]

OK please lurk more. It is required for a Dragon type to learn Draco Meteor by the CAP rules.

There are movepool rules. They require you to learn certain moves if you are a certain type. I linked to them.

Whoops, sorry. But the rest of my post still stands.

 

[Arb]

im really like rock and dark as options so im supporting them

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Look, we NEED a fighting resistance, and it would be nice to finish some Fighting types while we're at it, as Fighting is a type that is notorious for hitting hard.

If we go Fighting/Psychic, then we can dispatch the rock and fighting types that are problematic for Togekiss.

Fighting Psychic is only weak to Ghost and Flying, and nobody uses Flying moves besides Brave Bird, and only Skarmory actually uses it, and Togekiss LOVES to set up on Skarmory... non-Rotom Ghosts can be beaten by Togekiss because of the Shadow Ball immunity and the ability to Flinch hax and Roost.

Supporting Psychic as a 2ndary type.

 

[firecape]

Ok, well I think this will be my last post here because I kind of have been thread hogging, but I'll respond. Dark is great because it deals with Rotom and can hit Zapdos hard. It also has near perfect coverage while only having 2 weaknesses, Flying and Fighting. Fighting is really the only commonly used one, meaning Fighting is its only weakness. However, in return for a Fighting weakness it handles many of Togekiss's counters.

edit: Ok for the last time TOGEKISS IS NOT WEAK TO FIGHTING. Also, Togekiss commonly uses Air Slash which handles Fighting to a degree, but I think its more important to beat its counters then offer a Fighting resistance.

 

[The_Third_Try]

@Arb: Fighting/Rock would draw ground and grass attacks for 'Kiss to tank and it could take care of Zapdos with its STAB, but being Fighting weak would cause problems and it doesn't cover 'Kiss' Electric weakness. Starmie would wreck both cap11 and 'Kiss with LO Thunderbolt and Hydropump.

Edit: Just some food for thought. The only types that resist or are immune to Fighting are Bug, Flying, Poison, Psychic, and Ghost, None of which are that good offensively with Fighting and of which only poison adds any resistances/immunities that 'Kiss would enjoy. And that Toxic immunity isn't exactly top priority for 'Kiss.

 

[Chameleon]

What does dark add to the CAP's ability to help togekiss besides combat rotom and the rare cresselia more than electric? The moves that will be aimed at the pokemon will probably not be ones that togekiss will want to take. Togekiss can be outsped and 2HKOed by fast fighters as previous calcs have shown and already shares the ghost resist/immunity provided.

Physically based mixape close combat vs. standard NP togekiss: 61% - 71.7%

Not great, considering that infenape has the lowest base attack of all OU fighting types and heracross, lucario, and most breloom outspeed kiss too.

I'm not saying this characteristic has to be the typing, but secondary Dark flawlessly counters Celebi.

Agree with Chateau here that Celebi will be hard pressed and Gyarados will be happy. Roserade doesn't want to take hard physical STAB either.

Edgequake: Yes, a problem for Fighting/Electric, but at least its STABs take care of Tyranitar, Mamoswine, and Gyarados, which are among the most common users in the OU tier.

Specs Jolteon can potentially 2HKO the Wish Support jirachi from smogon, a good benchmark, so I think that either we need the electric type, ground type (which I do not support) or an electric-absorbing ability for sure. We don't want to have to heavily pad every stat except Sp. Attack.

Dragon/Fighting seems like such a dangerous typing that it would be difficult to bind to togekiss alone. Excellent resistances and offsensive STABs across the board... It's tough to underpower a dragon.
Altaria: 70 atk, 80 speed, a 4x weakness and it's still terrifying in UU. The only dragon fallen into UU too, of course.

 

[Bughouse]

I don't support the use of Volt Absorb or Motor Drive as I think that these abilities (are ridiculous on anything not electric) would help out Gyarados too much and potentially replace Jolteon or Electivire as a Gyarados partner.

However, perhaps a new ability could be created... that is the opposite of Lightningrod. I don't know exactly what it should do, but CAP 11 should not actually benefit from taking electric attacks.

 

[Chateau]

This will be my last post as well. Promise.

It also has near perfect coverage while only having 2 weaknesses, Flying and Fighting. Fighting is really the only commonly used one, meaning Fighting is its only weakness.

This is a problem, not a selling point. If CAP11 Can handle most Poke's, but not Fighting, then why pair it with Togekiss at all, as it can't come in on any OU Fighting Pokemon's STAB moves. It would be strong, but not a partner.

Ok for the last time TOGEKISS IS NOT WEAK TO FIGHTING. Also, Togekiss commonly uses Air Slash which handles Fighting to a degree.

No, it's not. But as I previously stated, it can't switch in on any common Fighting moves. So if Infernape/ Lucario/ Heracross/ Breloom/ Machamp decided to switch in on Fighting/Dark CAP11, you'd have to abandon your combo. A Fighting/ Dark Pokemon doesn't benefit in any way from Togekiss.

It is important that CAP11 has counters that Togekiss can switch into.

 

[reachzero]

First of all, I'd like to address a point here. Togekiss and CAP11 don't need to beat the whole opposing team by themselves! CeleTran can't do that. SkarmBliss can't do that. No two-Pokemon combination can do that. If it could, one or both would likely be Uber. It'd be perfectly okay if we need a third Pokemon to close a few holes. For instance, if CAP11 is weak to Water and Fighting, it's perfectly fine if the third member of our team is Celebi or Gyarados. What we do need CAP11 to do is to mitigate Togekiss' biggest problems.

Togekiss' biggest problems come in the form of Rotom-a, Zapdos, Jolteon, and as smallvizier astutely mentioned, Dragonite (which could be a much bigger factor than you think, pending Salamence's status). All of these except Dragonite share some common characteristics: they are neutral at worst to both Rock and Dark, they are Special attackers. Sadly, Dragonite is so different from the others that there is very little we can do without choosing Ice, which while mildly intriguing for the neutrality to Ice and effectiveness against Zapdos and Dragonite is really handicapped defensively compared to our other choices. Fortunately, Rock is a great choice for dealing with Togekiss' counters, again excepting Dragonite. Getting a SpD boost in Sandstorm makes a huge difference when it comes to taking one or two Specs Thunderbolts from Jolteon, which is a lot harder than you might think. With this is mind, Rock has my full support. Dark seems handy from an offensive standpoint, but it definitely does much less for CAP11 defensively than Rock does. Dragon is definitely tempting for the Electric resist, but consider this: it needs to be able to beat Zapdos. Suppose the Zapdos in question is SubRoost Zapdos. Zapdos is incredibly hard to kill if the other Pokemon is slower, and it runs 328 speed. Even so, Jolly Life Orb Salamence can't quite OHKO full health Zapdos with Life Orb, nor can (new) MixMence Draco Meteor. So if we're slower, good luck trying to KO Zapdos without offenses better than Salamence. So in other words, no Dragon/Fighting type strong enough to have a realistic chance of beating Zapdos is weak enough to be a really balanced Pokemon.

"But Rock can't beat bulky waters, and is weak to Fighting!"

Read my first paragraph again. I should also point out that Togekiss does just fine against most bulky waters, it's only really offensive Suicune that gives it any problems. Even with a neutral nature and no SpA EVs, +2 Air Slash does 43.8% - 51.8% to Vaporeon, which is plenty as far as I'm concerned, considering the 60% flinch rate.

tl;dr, Rock is the best choice for dealing with the Pokemon that give Togekiss problems.

 

[Griffin Rich]

Specs Jolteon can potentially 2HKO the Wish Support jirachi from smogon, a good benchmark, so I think that either we need the electric type, ground type (which I do not support) or an electric-absorbing ability for sure. We don't want to have to heavily pad every stat except Sp. Attack.

I'm in agreement here no doubt. In a synergy perspective, fighting type/STAB can cover both the Ice and Rock weaknesses that Kiss has. The Electric secondary would just be the last piece to cover Togekiss adequately.
Ground would just be a redundancy, and would fall prey to the bulky waters that were being discussed up there^^^. Ice weakness too, that's no bueno.
Coverage wise both ways, I think we're set if we go for a Fighting/Electric. It's only real weakness to psychic could most likely be sucked back up by Kiss and it's special bulk.

 

[Viashino_wizard]

The problem with electric is that it doesn't cover Zapdos or Rotom, two of the biggest threats to Togekiss. It's been said over and over, but a neutral electric attack is not going break through Zapdos, especially a defensive one, and Rotom resists both STAB. Rock, on the other hand, would potentially get a sandstorm boost to take neutral Ice/Electric attacks and retaliate.

 

[familyguyman]

I'm going Mythbusters on this one, please read this!


Togekiss loses to it's weaknesses; Rock, Electric and Ice kill it:
False to an extent. There's one Rock type in OU to care about, Tyranitar and he dies to Aura Sphere no problem; plus Cap11 is a Fighting type at least, no worries here. All other Rock attacks will be coming from non-STAB sources and it they aren't Ground types, they can be paralyzed and taken care of. Togekiss can take unSTAB Stone Edge too and Roost it off (also moves the weakness) to boot; this holds true for the Stealth Rock weakness too. Common Ice and Electric users suffer the same fate baring Jolteon and Electivire and Mamoswine. But if you opt for Aura Sphere over Thunder Wave, all of a sudden Rotom-A and Zapdos are the main threats. Paralysis support helps all of these. To prove my point, let's use Starmie, a Pokemon mentioned as "killing those combos". Starmie comes in, you paralyze it and it can't do a damn thing thanks to Roost.

Togekiss loses to things that resist Air Slash:
Togekiss is special in that it can beat ANYTHING that can be paralyzed (preferably by Thunder Wave) and/or Flinched. Blissey can be set up on without a problem. Even Rotom can have trouble if you get it slowed down (Rest-Talkers can be problematic). Togekiss abuses Serene Grace and can win battles she has no business winning, this happens a lot more than you think. While Togekiss dislikes Flying/Fighting Resistors, she can over come all of them with the right set. Don't under estimate a STAB move coming of a base 125 SpAtk with NP.


The two points are to not worry about covering Togekiss' weaknesses perfectly and to assume she needs massive help offensively. Really, many types will work here; which brings me to my final point.

Be careful of making a better partner for Zapdos, Skarmory, Gliscor, or Gyarados than Togekiss. We have Rock resists which all of them appreciate to a degree. We must be careful not to make any of them too good defensively with out second type, particularly Gyarados. Electric is not a good move in this regard as that helps all of them except Gliscor.

This is why I like Fire. It removes the Rock resist for all the Flying types to enjoy (Togekiss really doesn't need that compliment). It adds an Ice resist but also Water so Gliscor can't pair up easily. It doesn't stop Electric (which Togekiss cares about but not as much as you'd think) so Gyarados can't take advantage, plus it doesn't help CAP11 take on bulky Waters. Fire also helps take care of every single remaining counter to Togekiss. Steel types, Ghost-types, Zapdos. Yes, it leaves holes but it's a very well rounded option, particularly offensively which is a direction I feel we are going to explore.

 

[Griffin Rich]

Offensively: Again, everyone here is complaining that Fighting/Electric doesn't scratch Rotom-A. Again, I say...why is Rotom-A such a big ass deal? Maybe people are forgetting that we made Fighting the main type specifically so that 'Kiss can run attacks other than Aura Sphere? What attacks? Maybe....Shadow Ball? Another pokemon that people are complaining about is Gliscor...which is why so many pokemon run HP Ice. CAP11 will not have ridiculous offensive coverage with Fighting/Electric, but it will have plenty to do what it needs to do, which is support Togekiss. Also worth noting is that making it an Electric type will guarantee it gets TWave, with which it can cripple Zapdos or Rotom-A in a pinch if it needs to. No other type guarantee this kind of Offensive support to Togekiss, yet this is also being largely ignored.

Togekiss doesn't enjoy itself much sandstorm. The offensive possibilities need to be thought of from more than just a STAB stand point. The type coverage on electric/fighting is too good both ways to pass up on just because it's STAB doesn't perfectly cover one or two pokemon.

 

[Lucario_Guy]

The problem with electric is that it doesn't cover Zapdos or Rotom, two of the biggest threats to Togekiss. It's been said over and over, but a neutral electric attack is not going break through Zapdos, especially a defensive one, and Rotom resists both STAB.

You do know that we can give CAP11 any moves/stats to counter them that we want, right? Fighting/Electric is resistant or neutral to anything those two will dish out anyway.

Rock, on the other hand, would potentially get a sandstorm boost to take neutral Ice/Electric attacks and retaliate.

OMG enought with this "Rock/Steel/Dark" crap! Anything that's weak to Fighting doesn't work here because Togekiss can't switch in on it.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I get what you are saying, reachzero, but a Fighting-weak secondary type still leaves Togekiss very vulnerable to a number of common threats. Adamant Lucario easily outspeeds Togekiss and can OHKO with unboosted Close Combat after Stealth Rock. Machamp's Dynamicpunch does over half, and since it can survive an Air Slash after Stealth Rock, it can finish off a Togekiss that tries to switch in. Infernape can do the same thing with Close Combat, only it outspeeds so it won't get hit by Air Slash at all.

Togekiss is not weak to Fighting-type moves, but it is weak to strong physical attacks. Many of the strongest physical threats pack Fighting-type moves, and many of those moves have extremely high base power. I would really like to see CAP11 have a secondary type that will at least leave us the option of letting it handle these moves with a good Defense stat later on. Not necessarily resistant, but at least neutral.

If CAP11 is going to Fighting-weak, we need it to be aggressively synergistic offensively. For the reasons articulated by Jumpluff and Rising_Dusk, I feel that Dark is the only Fighting-weak type worth using.

 

[The_Third_Try]

I'm going Mythbusters on this one, please read this!


Togekiss loses to it's weaknesses; Rock, Electric and Ice kill it:
False to an extent. There's one Rock type in OU to care about, Tyranitar and he dies to Aura Sphere no problem; plus Cap11 is a Fighting type at least, no worries here. All other Rock attacks will be coming from non-STAB sources and it they aren't Ground types, they can be paralyzed and taken care of. Togekiss can take unSTAB Stone Edge too and Roost it off (also moves the weakness) to boot; this holds true for the Stealth Rock weakness too. Common Ice and Electric users suffer the same fate baring Jolteon and Electivire and Mamoswine. But if you opt for Aura Sphere over Thunder Wave, all of a sudden Rotom-A and Zapdos are the main threats. Paralysis support helps all of these. To prove my point, let's use Starmie, a Pokemon mentioned as "killing those combos". Starmie comes in, you paralyze it and it can't do a damn thing thanks to Roost.

Togekiss loses to things that resist Air Slash:
Togekiss is special in that it can beat ANYTHING that can be paralyzed (preferably by Thunder Wave) and/or Flinched. Blissey can be set up on without a problem. Even Rotom can have trouble if you get it slowed down (Rest-Talkers can be problematic). Togekiss abuses Serene Grace and can win battles she has no business winning, this happens a lot more than you think. While Togekiss dislikes Flying/Fighting Resistors, she can over come all of them with the right set. Don't under estimate a STAB move coming of a base 125 SpAtk with NP.


The two points are to not worry about covering Togekiss' weaknesses perfectly and to assume she needs massive help offensively. Really, many types will work here; which brings me to my final point.

Be careful of making a better partner for Zapdos, Skarmory, Gliscor, or Gyarados than Togekiss. We have Rock resists which all of them appreciate to a degree. We must be careful not to make any of them too good defensively with out second type, particularly Gyarados. Electric is not a good move in this regard as that helps all of them except Gliscor.

This is why I like Fire. It removes the Rock resist for all the Flying types to enjoy (Togekiss really doesn't need that compliment). It adds an Ice resist but also Water so Gliscor can't pair up easily. It doesn't stop Electric (which Togekiss cares about but not as much as you'd think) so Gyarados can't take advantage, plus it doesn't help CAP11 take on bulky Waters. Fire also helps take care of every single remaining counter to Togekiss. Steel types, Ghost-types, Zapdos. Yes, it leaves holes but it's a very well rounded option, particularly offensively which is a direction I feel we are going to explore.

Fighting/Fire seems like a pretty good idea. It deals with most of 'Kiss' counters, most notable exceptions being Starmie and Jolteon, and while it might be outclassed by Infernape I would argue that this thing being outclassed without the help of 'Kiss is a plus. Perhaps we should use an already existing type, or something similar, just so CAP11 is outclassed in certain roles.

 

[Kindrindra]

I call Fighting/Rock with an ability that makes it immune to moves the same type as it.

Okay, I'm kidding. Not only would that be poll jumping (which is kinda hard not to do when thinking of typing), but it's, well... wait there as I think of more problems with it.


In all seriousness, I'll just jump on the bandwagon that says Fighting/Rock. Although it has no way to absorb electrical moves- especially T-Wave- Which Kiss hates, we can deal with that over in the abilities poll. How to justify Fighting/Rock with Volt Absorb/Motor Drive? Leave that to the design guys. I dunno, a fighting figurine that runs on electricity. -_-
But that's another poll for another time. So I'm casting my vote for Fighting/Rock.

 

[capefeather]

SkarmBliss loses to Infernape. Gliscor+Vaporeon loses to Shaymin and Sceptile. CeleTran also loses to Infernape (well, "twave" but w/e). And, of course, Tyranitar and Lucario are both weak against Fighting. Every pair has a defensive flaw. If we cared so much about perfect defensive synergy, we would have chosen Steel + Fighting resist + Flash Fire. We're talking about offensive synergy here. Zapdos is quite a bulky Pokémon and non-STAB crap won't cut it.

Also, Rock and Dark have very similar neutral coverage with Fighting, the most notable difference probably being Heracross.

 

[familyguyman]

Fighting/Fire seems like a pretty good idea. It deals with most of 'Kiss' counters, most notable exceptions being Starmie and Jolteon, and while it might be outclassed by Infernape I would argue that this thing being outclassed without the help of 'Kiss is a plus. Perhaps we should use an already existing type, or something similar, just so CAP11 is outclassed in certain roles.

That's an interesting spin I hadn't considered. I was leaning in the bulky + decent defensive typing + very good offensive typing + synergy way but the outclassed without Togekiss angle, the other direction of what we are mostly thinking, is a cool idea and an overlooked angle.

 

[Griffin Rich]

Fighting/Fire seems like a pretty good idea. It deals with most of 'Kiss' counters, most notable exceptions being Starmie and Jolteon, and while it might be outclassed by Infernape I would argue that this thing being outclassed without the help of 'Kiss is a plus. Perhaps we should use an already existing type, or something similar, just so CAP11 is outclassed in certain roles.

While the idea is interesting, and certainly pertains to the topic, fire would be rather counter productive.
1.) It makes Cap11 Stealth Rock neutral, rather than resistant.
2.) It becomes a door mat for bulky waters.
-Think about this one. The proposal is something along the lines of an inferior Infernape. Smog lists waters (like Suicune) as the 1st counter to Infernape in the first paragraph. This means that bulky waters completely counter both Kiss and CAP.
3.) No attempt at checking the counters.

 

[reachzero]

I get what you are saying, reachzero, but a Fighting-weak secondary type still leaves Togekiss very vulnerable to a number of common threats. Adamant Lucario easily outspeeds Togekiss and can OHKO with unboosted Close Combat after Stealth Rock. Machamp's Dynamicpunch does over half, and since it can survive an Air Slash after Stealth Rock, it can finish off a Togekiss that tries to switch in. Infernape can do the same thing with Close Combat, only it outspeeds so it won't get hit by Air Slash at all.

What Togekiss EVs are you assuming? I'm assuming max HP, no defense, and Infernape can't OHKO you with Close Combat (61% - 71.7% from physical MixApe). It can with Stone Edge, though. For what it's worth, I use 252 HP/20 SpD/238 Speed Timid Togekiss, and that actually does outspeed Adamant Lucario. Jolly Lucario does 63.4% - 74.9%, so it can't OHKO with Close Combat. I'm not saying that Togekiss should ever switch into Fighting types, that would be dumb. But I am saying that it's not so bad that we can't depend on another teammate to handle Fighting attacks, considering that pretty much all Fighting types would be equally stupid to actually switch into Togekiss.

 

[familyguyman]

While the idea is interesting, and certainly pertains to the topic, fire would be rather counter productive.
1.) It makes Cap11 Stealth Rock neutral, rather than resistant.
2.) It becomes a door mat for bulky waters.
-Think about this one. The proposal is something along the lines of an inferior Infernape. Smog lists waters (like Suicune) as the 1st counter to Infernape in the first paragraph. This means that bulky waters completely counter both Kiss and CAP.
3.) No attempt at checking the counters.

Did you not read my post?

Stealth Rock neutral doesn't mean much at all; hell, the weakness doesn't even mean much to Togekiss. Look at GyaraJolt, Jolteon doesn't resist Stealth Rock. Besides, this can emphasize Wish passing as a useful strategy.

Bulky Waters do not completely counter Togekiss, what are you talking about? Other posts prove that point more than mine.

I'm not even touching point 3.


Sorry, but this is the kind of naive thinking that has been bothering me this whole CAP process, it really needs to stop.

 

[Bughouse]

Fire does not provide anything extra in my mind. Fire is super effective against Bug and Grass - already covered by Togekiss' Flying-type, and Ice and Steel - already covered by CAP 11's Fighting-type. Fire brings a new weakness in Water and a lost resistance in Rock.

The only positive to adding Fire-type is its new resistances: Fire, Ice, and Steel. While these resistances are definitely helpful, it cannot possibly compensate for the downside.

By the way, a downsized Infernape that would need Nasty Plot passes to really work already exists: Blaziken.

 

[UncleSam]

All the Rock supporters need to keep in mind that Scizor CB Bullet Punch is a far more legitimate concern than Zapdos is to Togekiss. Scizor demolishes anything that is weak to Bullet Punch, and he is already doing 45.2% - 53.2% to Flinch Togekiss as is. Do we really want to make our "perfect duo" weak to the most commonly used pokemon in the game?

Also, to everyone saying that we need an Offensive duo versus a Defensive duo, that is true in part, but what you all seem to be forgetting is that it is incredibly difficult to overcome poor defensive typing. It is not nearly as difficult to overcome poor Offensive typing, as all of the Offensive stats/moves have yet to be decided. I really don't see why "We need STAB to defeat Zapdos/Rotom-A" is a better argument than "If we pick Electric we won't be raped by Scizor".

Also, to any Dragon supporters out there, do we really want to encourage the use of more Steel types in the metagame? Togekiss hates Steel types, and adding a Dragon would result in Steel rising again, which would result in 'Kiss having to run Aura Sphere, which would result in a completely wasted primary typing for our CAP. Best case is CAP11 sucks and no one feels the need to use Steel types to counter it, which is hardly a desirable outcome.

If we pick Electric, it will likely result in a rise in popularity in EQ, and Togekiss can easily handle most EQ users. Togekiss can handle the EdgeQuake combo as well, assuming CAP11 was able to TWave the attacking pokemon, which allows 'Kiss to Roost off it's Rock weakness.

Seriously, why is everyone obsessing over Zapdos and Rotom-A and not Scizor? Electric allows CAP11 to Paralyze Rotom-A and Zapdos, while covering all of it's other duties as Togekiss' partner. Once these threats are paralyzed, Togekiss can set up on them easily enough. Plus, passing NP boosts to a STAB Thunderbolt user means that either pokemon could facilitate a sweep for the other, yet neither would be overpowering on their own. Besides, it's not exactly like Electric is as bad of an attacking type as everyone is making it out to be.