CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 11 - Movepool Limits

[Rising_Dusk]

This is a stage that used to coexist with the Stat Limits stage that took place earlier in the CAP. As a refresher, the results of Stat Limits can be found here. According to the on-site article, a 355 BSR limit roughly corresponds to 75 total moves and 35 VGMs. These limits, even with the advent of BW, are enforced in final movepools.

I think that this many moves allowed may be a detriment to the concept, particularly because of the unique nature of this specific concept. This discussion will be a short-lasting one on refining those limits, particularly with regards to reducing them and making the limits more severe. Suffice to say, I think CAP 2 should have a smaller movepool than that, and I want our limits to reflect that. I do, however, want this to be a community discussion that attempts to convince me, like with other stages in the process. So, if you have serious convictions about this like I do, I hope you'll post.

This discussion thread will be open for 24 hours.

CAP 2 thus far:

Name: Necturna

Concept: Sketch Artist

Description: A Pokemon that learns Sketch, once, and everything that goes along with that.

Justification:

In terms of uniqueness, I think that few existing Pokemon can match DPP Smeargle, an otherwise laughably worthless Pokemon trolling OU with access to every trick in the book (or at least 4 of them) but also affecting the metagame greatly by becoming a top threat in the lead metagame. This Pokemon will borrow some of that uniqueness by learning the move Sketch and thus having access to ONE surprise/strategic/gutshot bonus move to supplement its pre-existing movepool. Being otherwise competently built (read: usable stats), this Poke could be a top threat or specialist for reasons we can't even predict yet.

Questions To Be Answered:

• How will a Poke that has access to any one move out of all the moves in the game affect common battling tactics, namely prediction, scouting, and switching?
• Which Sketch moves will become most common on this Poke's best sets? Does Sketchmon's success rely on hiding that secret Sketch move until just the right moment or can it succeed with predictably powerful moves like Spore, Spikes, Hurricane, Shell Smash, etc.?
• Does this unique and powerful access to moves need to be counterbalanced elsewhere in the Pokemon's design? If so, then to what degree?
• What kind of impact can Sketchmon have on teambuilding in terms of being able to patch holes with common utility moves like Rapid Spin or Toxic Spikes?

Explanation: The key here is that we have a lot of freedom to construct a unique Pokemon while staying within the confines of the concept. Typing, stats, abilities, and even most of the movepool are completely fair game so long as the Poke learns Sketch only once along the way and that we keep that in mind during previous steps. Now, this doesn't mean the CAP process will be directionless; Rising Dusk is pretty well organized and good at keeping discussions focused, and the concept itself has firm grounding in Smeargle's precedent. What's really being studied with this concept is movepool diversity and effectiveness, so it should have the most effect on the movepool process, where movepool creators will have to carefully balance their Sketchmon's actual movepool with the possibility of adding any one other move to the list. In terms of the metagame, there is no doubt in my mind that throwing a wildcard like this into the mix will strongly affect the metagame.

Focus: Bulky Offense
Typing: Grass / Ghost
Stats: 64 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 85 SpA / 120 SpD / 81 Spe
Abilities: Forewarn / Telepathy (DW)
Primary Checks: Heatran, Jirachi, Skarmory, Hydreigon
Gender: Female

tl;dr: Quack! (Movepool work is such a formality.)

 

[Rising_Dusk]

CAP 2 is a special Pokemon because of its concept. It can get one of any move in the game to use in tandem with its other moves to pretty much do whatever it wants. This is important to keep in mind, because it has serious movepool ramifications.

I personally stand in favor of the following adjusted movepool limits for CAP 2:

55 Total Moves
25 VGMs​

This would align CAP 2 with the lowest tier of movepool limits in the on-site article, and is two stages below the current limit imposed by the corresponding BSR limit I put on CAP 2. I was originally thinking of limiting the movepools even further, but I am not quite sure about it and would like some discussion first.

My reasoning for limiting CAP 2 further in this way is mostly because of its raw versatility. CAP 2's projected top movesets in boosting are both powerful physical and special, defensive and offensive, sweeping and support. CAP 2 thus has an immense level of diversity in what it can do, and thus should be limited especially in order to prevent it from being able to do too much. It's strength is derived from its versatility combined with raw numbers, not just raw numbers alone.

With my bit said, I will now open the discussion to everyone.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

55 Total Moves
25 VGMs
​

I have nothing really important to add to this but "This is absolutely perfect".

If I may, though, build on top of Rising_Dusk's opening, I would like to add the idea of being as frugal as is physically possible, not only to provide the biggest challenge to the movepool creators but also to make sure that Necturna isn't being overburdened with options. Hence, we are free to concentrate on Sketch.

I will say for anybody worrying that these limits are more than ample. I managed to build my ideal movepool for Necturna while still retaining about 5 VGM and move spaces for flavour. If I recall correctly, Rising_Dusk and others have had similar experiences (though I do not wish to speak for them, of course).

 

[capefeather]

I agree that these limits are more or less the best. I think we should be careful not to lower them too much, though, because of the complications of the flavour aspects of this CAP.

 

[eriXtone]

55 Total Moves, 25 VGMs is 100% perfect. Spiritomb has 55 Total Moves, and is a decent comparison in my eyes since both fill a similar support niche. Were Spiritomb to be given the flexibility of Sketch, it would be a very different Pokemon.

I approve of 55 Total Moves, 25 VGMs

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

Which moves of those allowed for Necturna will be considered Very Good Moves? Will this be clarified when the movepool entries start?

 

[Birkal]

This page contains a list of VGMs. I hope it helps!

Also, I'm all for R_D's suggestion. I'd prefer movepool submissions that were lower in count when we arrive further down the process, but setting the limit at 25 VGM and 55 total moves is acceptable.

 

[milo v3]

55 Total Moves, 25 VGMs
Looks about perfect.

 

[Deck Knight]

While I would prefer a bit more playspace on VGMs (30), I can endorse 55 total since that allows submitters to amply consider flavor.

Though what qualifies for a VGM might be overly broad, since Sketch is going to outmuscle a lot of other VGMs.

So I'd prefer 55/30, but I can make do with 55/25. It will be difficult because I'm fairly conservative in defining VGMs as they are listed, but I like the prospective pool I came up with, it just needs a little pruning. Remember that STABs will take up a significant number of VGM slots.

 

[Kyuzeth]

As Deck Night says, Necturna can have some space for very good moves, so I'm going with 55/30, but I have no problem with 55/25 at all.

 

[erisia]

Yeah, I agree with the 55/25 spread. This gives people plenty of opportunity to add flavour moves whilst not risking Necturna having so many options it doesn't need Sketch. Any more VGMs, and some sets may not need Sketch to function well, which sort of defeats the purpose of the concept.

 

[capefeather]

Just off of estimations, I think that 30 would be a better VGM limit. It doesn't matter too much, but Grass/Ghost/Forewarn has quite a few VGMs and then there are the 2-3 moves added for competitive reasons.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Okay. I didn't think this would get a lot of discussion, but I was actually surprised by how much agreement there was! Seems like it was indeed smart for me to post this topic and adjust the limits. Anyway, I agree with Deck and cape and everyone else that suggested it. I think 55 is a wise upper limit for total moves, but that there are a lot of STAB moves that take up those VGM slots. for this reason, the limits will be:

55 Total Moves
30 VGMs​

Expect the thread you've all been waiting for soon!