[DONE] JOHTO CLASSIC - Post your results!

[TheMantyke]

So I'm pretty scrubby at 3v3 singles, but specs electric types seem very powerful. My team has a specs Zapdos and its usually the MVP, tearing holes in teams with thunderbolt and usually taking another mon down thanks to its natural bulk. Specs Raikou seems scary as well since it trades extra speed for a little less special attack and a different assortment of coverage. Even a specs Jolteon caught me really off guard with its Tbolt's power (albiet I was running a really shitty snorlax spread and I should have been fine if I wasn't Apparently max attack max defense lax isn't that uncommon). The only hard stop I see outside of lax is like Quagsire or Lanturn or something since all the ground types have bad special defense and take way too much from its coverage. Pair it with a few physical mons that can dispose of their checks and your golden.

Edit: I guess I completely forgot about T-tar being a good answer, lol. My team has a few mons that shit on him so I almost forgot. My bad! Piloswine also seems okay.

I don't know what it is, but I feel very uncomfortable using Sheer Cold Cune. I feel like set up fodder pretty often. Probably just a personal preference I guess. I'm probably going to try out crocune soon.

Dragonite seems beastly. I'm carrying a Clefable on my team solely for it and I'm not looking forward to eventually running into an Iron Head variant.

I've seen a few Hitmontops and I'm not really a fan. You can see the Fake Out coming from miles away and it all around seems so much worse than Machamp (who I'm loving so far) unless you're doing something with Intimidate.

Haven't seen Smeagle shenanigans just yet, but it doesn't seem too bad to prepare for. Lum Berry for the spore with a STAB and some priority seem like they'd work just fine to dispose of it.

Seen a few Granbulls so far. Seems like a cool alternative to Clefable since it has very respectable attack and Intimidate.

I'm getting a few DPP flashbacks as I play since a lot of the best mons were pretty good in DPP OU. This a pretty fun meta to play so far!

 

[Vengeance417]

Speaking of Specs users:

Espeon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic/Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Dazzling Gleam/Hidden Power Fighting
- Trick

I am enjoying Spexeon. It's proven to be very good at wall/stallbreaking. Specs Psychic has a very good chance of 2HKOing phys def Suicune and no bulk Scizor and is guaranteed after rocks or even the slightest of prior damage. It also 2HKOs non-Eviolite Magneton straight up. Magic Bounce is what sets it apart from Alakazam in this role, as it deters the opponent from using hazards and status moves. Trick is the icing on the cake here, as it can cripple set up sweepers, walls (especially Chansey and P2) and can be used as a last ditch effort to cripple a physical attacker if you don't need Espeon anymore. Base 110 speed is also decent in this meta as well, though it'll need to watch for Zam, Sneasel and speed ties with Gengar.

It does face issues. Pursuit is everywhere in this meta (T-Tar, Sneasel, Scizor, even Snorlax can do it) and its very frail (not as frail as zam though, but not much of a difference tbh).

 

[zapzap29]

So after laddering for the night here are my initial thoughts on Johto Classic. Matches are a lot less predictable than Kanto Classic due to the presence of Johto mons and items. Every game goes by really quickly and the early metagame seems to be centered around fast cleaners and bulky sweepers. I've seen maybe 2 or 3 pure stall teams in the 60 or so matches I played. Everything else was either pure offense or balance.

Threats

Dragonite is everywhere which is to be expected. Mostly DD variants but I've actually seen Specs variants floating around too. The surprise factor is very powerful and Specs Nite can turn a game around very quickly. It's really unpleasant seeing DNite in the team preview and trying to guess what it is. In virtually every match where I faced a Specs Nite it always scores a surprise kill. Dnite's flexibility makes it 10x better than it was in Kanto Classic.

Azumarill. Dear God that little rabbit is absolutely brutal. It's like that scene from Monty Python where the rabbit just tears the army to shreds. The Belly Drum Sitrus Berry set seems to be the best one right now. Azumarill is really difficult to check and outside of Venusaur I'm not sure if there's anything that hard counters it. Gyarados and Suicune are passable checks but neither of them have many moves that can OHKO Azumarill after they take a hit. In every match I played and watched, Azumarill put in work. Even if it didn't sweep the opponent's team it always put a dent in something, making it easier for the rest of the team to pull through. That little blue bastard is terrifying.

I think Dragonite and Azumarill will easily be in the top ten used pokemon by the end of the competition. There's little to no drawback to using either of them and you can splash them into pretty much any team. Scary stuff.

 

[Jake0743]

I think I just formulated an anti-Dragonite that is actually decent in general.
Donphan @ Custap Berry
EVs to be determined
-Earthquake
-Endeavor
-Counter
-Ice Shard

 

[Vengeance417]

I'm a fan on Banded Azu. I'm not saying BD is bad since it's one of its best sets, but making Azu Choice Banded can enable it to punch holes through Unaware Mons such as Quag and Clef way easier, and it gives you more immediate power each time it comes out as opposed to the single-use nature of Belly Drum. It comes at the cost of choosing other moves, which is its admittedly biggest drawback, but the benefits Band brings is pretty worth it imo.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 126-148 (62.6 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 84-99 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

and


252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
vs
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 76-91 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Opponents will most likely expect you to Belly Drum on the turn they bring Clefable and Quagsire in, only to realize that their answers are being 2HKOd.

 

[Slowbroman]

I've found that Piloswine is extremely underrated. It checks so much, it's ridiculous. Nidos, Dragonite, Raikou, T-Tar...

On that note, Nidoking also seems to work decently; not a top threat due to its disappointing speed, but Sucker Punch works for Alakazam and it can break through several walls.

 

[lucariomaster2]

I'm really enjoying Sash Dugtrio in this metagame due to its ability to set up rocks, Memento, and then bring in Feraligatr to sweep. The 3 I'm bringing to almost every game are Sash Dugtrio, DD LO Feraligatr, and Banded Scizor.

 

[a0161613]

I'm going to test out a team of Entei, Jumpluff, Politoed, Dragonite, Raikou & Scizor. It feels like it may be a good start for me

 

[nax_89]

Hi, Anybody knows a really viable way to use a Typhlosion? I love the poke, but it's useless in general cause his poor special moveset.

 

[lucariomaster2]

Hi, Anybody knows a really viable way to use a Typhlosion? I love the poke, but it's useless in general cause his poor special moveset.

You could try giving it a Scarf/Specs and pairing it with Drought Ninetales to fire off Eruptions, but other than that I'm not sure how viable it will be.

 

[Slowbroman]

Hi, Anybody knows a really viable way to use a Typhlosion? I love the poke, but it's useless in general cause his poor special moveset.

Hm.. shouldn't be too useless here, imho. The main reason it's bad in standard tiers is because it's heavily outclassed by other offensive Fire-types like Delphox in RU, but it may have a niche here (maybe a Sticky Web team with Smeargle?)

 

[nax_89]

Hm.. shouldn't be too useless here, imho. The main reason it's bad in standard tiers is because it's heavily outclassed by other offensive Fire-types like Delphox in RU, but it may have a niche here (maybe a Sticky Web team with Smeargle?)

nice idea, I'm gonna try Sticky web, cause I found tailwind hard to use on singles.

 

[Impact]

So will chansey still be better than blissey?

700th post btw!

 

[TheMantyke]

I think I just formulated an anti-Dragonite that is actually decent in general.
Donphan @ Custap Berry
EVs to be determined
-Earthquake
-Endeavor
-Counter
-Ice Shard

This is the best set ever, oh my god

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-368160355
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-367990552

 

[lucariomaster2]

This is the best set ever, oh my god

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-368160355
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-367990552

That's it, I'm stealing this set. Assuming I can get a Custap Berry.

 

[Nelson Tangela]

I'm working on a Speed Tier list for this metagame. PM/VM me if you think that I should add/edit something, since it's still a work in progress.

 

[VenusaurOmega]

So will chansey still be better than blissey?

700th post btw!

Eviolite makes the difference, and only Chansey can make use of it. Shame since I like Blissey's design more. lol


I'm not a fan of Sheer Cold but that thing alone makes Zapdos (125 SpA)/Raikou (115) or even Magneton (120) mandatory. Honestly I prefer Zapdos since it's not affected by Arena Trap. They also check Azumarill and Gyarados, which could be seen for Intimidate purposes. Other users of it are Arcanine, Tauros and Hitmontop, though they'd hardly make it for the team. Arcanine could compete with Entei, but the latter has Sacred Fire plus a bit better Attack and Speed.

Machamp is the best Fighting-type sweeper here, though it hates Clefable and Slowbro. Its presence can force inmediate switches, but it can deal some damage before fainting with cover moves like Poison Jab and Knock Off. And even after switching, Dynamic Punch confuses anything that isn't a Ghost. Some Trick Room or even Tailwind support would be appreciated. You're definitely not interested in not bringing one or two things that can really counter it.

 

[Jake0743]

This is the best set ever, oh my god

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-368160355
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/johtoclassic-367990552

:)))))
What EVs did you use?

 

[TheMantyke]

Echoing the sentiments on Machamp. I've been leading off with this thing for like 90% of my games and it does crazy work

Machamp @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off / Heavy Slam
- Bullet Punch

Sash Machamp rises from the grave of DPP to score even more confusion hax. This thing tears games open for mons like Zapdos and Dragonite to clean up. Highly, highly recommend it. I'm actually not sure what else out there trades favorably with this thing, so please suggests some answers!

 

[Hulavuta]

Yeah, Machamp is super good. Even if it's super predictable it does well against most leads. I'm using it myself and I rarely find that I need to use a different lead; it can always do something against the opposing lead even if that something is just getting them confused.

A decent enough check I can think of is Azumarill with Aqua Jet, but like most things it's a 50/50 due to Dynamic Punch.

 

[6tennis]

Echoing the sentiments on Machamp. I've been leading off with this thing for like 90% of my games and it does crazy work

Machamp @ Focus Sash
Ability: No Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Stone Edge
- Knock Off / Heavy Slam
- Bullet Punch

Sash Machamp rises from the grave of DPP to score even more confusion hax. This thing tears games open for mons like Zapdos and Dragonite to clean up. Highly, highly recommend it. I'm actually not sure what else out there trades favorably with this thing, so please suggests some answers!

I've been testing out using Choice Band Cloyster with Icicle Spear (which is an OHKO), and that's been working nicely. It can't switch in to anything, of course, but it deals nice damage and outspeeds Machamp.

 

[bboyrei]

Thoughts on Scarf T-tar in this meta? It's been doing wonders for me by catching a lot of surprise kills, and Stone Edge is able to OHKO D-nite after sand damage.

 

[zapzap29]

Thoughts on Scarf T-tar in this meta? It's been doing wonders for me by catching a lot of surprise kills, and Stone Edge is able to OHKO D-nite after sand damage.

Personally I found Scarf-Tar to be underwhelming. It never seems to hit when you need it to and in a lot of cases it just turned into set up fodder after revenge killing something. I don't think it's bad per se, it's just not something I like to run personally. It's a pretty good mon for beating opposing weather and revenge killing, I don't think it's the best possible Tar set though.

Edit: Another thing I dislike about Scarf-Tar is how vulnerable it makes your team to Azumarill and Clefable.

 

[VenusaurOmega]

Thoughts on Scarf T-tar in this meta? It's been doing wonders for me by catching a lot of surprise kills, and Stone Edge is able to OHKO D-nite after sand damage.

You may want it Jolly to avoid Gengar's Destiny Bond. I used it last night on showdown and it missed two or three Stone Edges, but that's a natural risk. It can also put opponents in trouble with Pursuit when looking for a switch. It's also good to change the weather if the opponent has a Ninetales or a Politoed.

Edit: Another thing I dislike about Scarf-Tar is how vulnerable it makes your team to Azumarill and Clefable.

Unless you bring also a Steel-type, Gengar, Nidoking, or Grass/Poison like Venusaur for Azumarill.

 

[Theorymon]

Very early impression of this metagame is that Sheer Cold Suicune isn't as dominate as I expected. Don't get me wrong: I still think its a huge threat! Its just that with Raikou, Zapdos, and Magneton being extremely common, I've actually found it to be sorta difficult to get it in and spam Sheer Cold. I want to say this reminds me of how Mega Salamence needs support to work in Battle Spot Singles to be honest: Its damn good, but just slapping it on a team won't work! I imagine any team that really wants to take advantage of Suicune is gonna need stuff like Tyranitar and a good Ground-type to take care of all the Electric-types flying around right now.

Also much like Mega Salamence, I do think Suicune will have a counter measure to these checks. In this case: The Assualt Vest set! I think it runs something like Scald / Ice Beam / Mirror Coat / Sheer Cold. The basic idea is: use Mirror Coat to defeat stuff that tries to Thunderbolt you! Just watch out though: Sub Calm Mind Raikou busts through this, and there is the off chance that someone might see the Mirror Coat coming and Volt Switch to Tyranitar.

Also, Venusaur has been fantastic for me so far. Despite both sharing an Ice weakness, I've found that its a great Dragonite teammate, since Venusaur slams Quagsire and Clefable, its two biggest problems, and also checks the deadly Azumarill. It also isn't shabby against Suicune as long as you watch out for Sheer Cold. And, like Kanto Classic, Venusaur is by far the best spreader of sleep around! Oddly, I've been using a fast set with Hidden Power Ice to surprise Dragonite, but Nelson Tangela was talking about using a Quiet one with Earthquake to defeat Raikou, and DTC has been using Leaf Storm for more damage.

Finally, on the topic of Machamp: Yeah despite Heracross giving it some competition, this thing is still excellent. The sash set is awesome, but I myself have been using a Choice Band set with Guts. A lot of people like to Will-O-Wisp Machamp with Gengar (or to a lesser extent, Arcanine), and its great to take advantage of that! Plus, it allows you to dodge Sheer Colds, which has won me some match-ups against Suicune before!