Dual Bulky Dragons (OU RMT)

[IRON104]

At a glance

This is my first RMT, but that doesn't mean it's not thought out. I have had success with it in Shoddy, but it isn't perfect, so I'm looking for some help. The basic strategy is to take out or hypnotize the opponent's lead with gengar and either take a second one down with destiny bond or save him for a spin blocker or laate game sweeper. Then I set up spikes and stealth rock with skarmory and swampert, then roar/whirlwind to scout the opponents team and rack up some entry hazard damage. Heatran acts as a revenge killer, and then I put in either Latias or dragonite to set up and sweep.

Gengar @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP/ 252 SpA / 252 Sp
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
~Hypnosis
~Focus Blast
~Shadow Ball
~Destiny Bond

Max Speed allows Gengar to outspeed many common leads, using shadow ball to KO or Hypnosis if a 2HKO isn't possible (with Focus sash 2 attacks are almost guaranteed, as most leads that outspeed Gengar usually start with taunt or SR). Destiny Bond is gimicky but nets me many surprise KOs from opponents expecting explosion.

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Nature: Impish (+Def, -SpA)
~Stealth Rock
~Roar
~Earthquake
~Avalanche

Swamperts bulk lets me set up rocks almost every battle, and then Roar to scout the opponent's team and rack up some entry damage. EQ and avalanche have great type coverage together, and avalanche is one of my favorite ways of killing dragons, especially salamence.

Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Atk / 176 Def / 16 Spe
Nature: Impish (+Def, -SpA)
~Brave Bird
~Spikes
~Roost
~Whirlwind

After some experimentation, I have come to the conclusion that this set is the standard smogon spiker because it works best. Used almost identical as swampert, but the pairing of the two provides excellent coverage, as swampert sponges fire and is immune to electric attacks and Thunder wave, while skarmory can take grass attacks that would normally OHKO swampert.

Latias @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 128 HP / 128 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
~Calm Mind
~Recover
~Surf
~Dragon Pulse

Usually the MVP of this team, Latias should be Uber because of how good she is. After a Calm Mind, not even ice beams or shadow balls can stop her because she can almost always recover before attacked again. STAB Dragon Pulse and Surf give latias at least neutral damage on everything except Empoleon. Steels can wall latias for a while, but after a few CMs nothing can withstand a Surf.

Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 196 Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
~Dragon Dance
~Roost
~Outrage
~Earthquake

Why a dragonite over salamence? I liked the bulk of dragonite because most EVs on dragon counters are designed to OHKO salamence. Dragonites bulk lets him take an unexpected HP ice and respond with a DDed EQ or Outrage. Though not as immediately threatening, after scouting possible counters in the early/mid game, I can bring dragonite in and often set up multiple dragon dances. Outrage is main STAB and destroys anything that isnt steel. EQ lets me kill most steels that wall outrage, such as heatran who could otherwise revenge kill with scarfed dragon pulse. Bronzong is not hit by EQ and is barely touched by outrage, however, which is where my next pokemon comes in.

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive (+Spe, -SpD)
~Fire Blast
~Earth Power
~Dragon Pulse
~Explosion

The revenge killer, anyone who has played Heatran knows the value of prediction, which is why Skarm and Swampert are so important. He easily kills steels who wall dragonite or latias, but there is always the risk of accidentaly powering up an opponents Heatran switch-in. Dragon Pulse is a good option if you are not sure what your opponent will switch in, often hitting dragons super-effectively who are looking to swiotch in and set up on on a heatran locked into fire blast.


You can see the value of prediction on this team. Any suggestions regarding Evs, movesets, or anything are greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[MrIndigo]

You might want Fire Punch or the like over EQ on Dragonite; Skarmory, Bronzong and even Forretress can all take EQs rather well. I'd say those guys, especially Skarmory and Bronzong, are more of a problem for Dragonite sweeping than the possible Heatran walling you, especially with Dragonites special bulk.

 

[musiquev24]

Hello!

First little suggestion: I suggest you use Ice Beam over Avalanche on Swampert. Then you don't rely on them hitting you to do more damage. Also, most things you'll be hitting with Ice attacks have weaker Special Defense; Gliscor, Salamence, and Hippowdon are great examples. Ice beam also has a 10% chance to freeze, and while its not a means of winning that you want to be proud of, getting a freeze can completely change the game. If you make the Ice Beam change, be sure to make your nature Relaxed (you won't be outspeeding much anyway.) Your EV's are still okay after you make the switch.

One more thing about Swampert. You may want to consider changing Roar to Hydro Pump. I understand you have Roar to try and shuffle more pokemon around, but you already have Whirlwind on Skarmory. Hydro Pump will give you better neutral coverage and helps against pokemon like Bronzong (whom both of your Dragons dislike enough as it is) and Rotom-A.

You might want to try Explosion on Gengar instead of Destiny Bond. Destiny Bond is usually very predictable and also leaves you with a situational and often useless move, something Gengar shouldn't be dealing with given his amazing move pool. While Gengar isn't packing a lot of attack, Explosion's high power can easily take out weakened threats or put a huge hole in something. It may not be guaranteed to kill like Destiny Bond, but you are more likely to actually harm the opponent with Explosion than you are with Destiny Bond. If you make the change, be sure to change your nature to Mild and consider moving those 4 EV's in HP to Atk.

First off, props for using Dragonite, but more importantly, using a Dragonite set that is not outclassed! Your EV spread could use some slight tweaking though. A spread of 224 HP / 84 Atk / 200 Spe will suit you better. The Speed EV's make sure you outspeed Jolly Tyranitar and defensive Celebi, Jirachi, and Zapdos sets. NEVER MAX HP ON DRAGONITE! Max HP Dragonite's HP is divisable by 4, which means he dies after switching into stealth rock 4 times (now you probably don't want to be switching a Dragonite in that many times but should the situation arise you want to be able to switch in as much as possible). With 224, you are able to switch in 5 times.

As for your Lum Berry, I actually think you may benefit from changing it. Unless you are really desperate for a better means of dealing with Breloom and Togekiss with Thunder Wave, which doesn't seem to be too much of a problem for either case on your team, you probably don't need the Lum Berry. Best case scenario, the game will be over by the time you get Dragonite out and setup, so the Lum Berry to take away confusion probably won't end up saving you too much. You have Swampert to take Thunder Wave and Heatran to take Will-o-Wisp, which only leaves sleep (which I described above) and freeze, which you should just hope doesn't ever happen! My suggestion is that you change Lum Berry to Leftovers. Leftovers will make switching in not as detrimental, as you will actually be gaining HP after losing a quarter from SR and more life from whatever hit you take when switching in. Also, lower HP makes you more vulnerable to Ice Shard users. Lum Berry is not a bad choice at all, but unless you want more ways to deal with the situational pokemon described above, the change to leftovers can make Dragonite's sweep more likely thanks to increased survival rate.

I hope this helps!

 

[IRON104]

Thanks for the new EVs on Dragonite, I'll change those, and also experiment with leftovers and fire punch. I'll also try Ice beam on swampert over avalanche, only problem I see with this are opposing latias who have excellent Special defense. However, I do want to keep roar on swampert over hydro pump because of the value of prediction on my team as well as a check for sweepers trying to set up, even though skarmory already has it, as skarmory is often surprise killed do to the popularity of HP ice and HP fire. Explosion seems like a good alternative to destiny bond, i just wasnt sure gengar had the attack power to make use of it. I'll try it on Shoddy and see how it works. Thanks both of you for rating it.

 

[Cherub Agent]

ive run a similar team before, except using salamence over dragonite. anyway, ive discovered that the defensive latias set, with only dragon pulse as its offensive move, and the defensive dragonite set with only dragon claw as its offensive move work extremely well, after removing the steel types and for that reason, i'd recommend a magnezone, and you already have heatran to help even more. however, that would make you more or less have to rethink your team, its just a thought i had after seeing the title...

 

[KurashiDragon]

Here's the thing about your dragonite. It's got a serious weakness to stealth rock. While it's not much of a problem for the rest of your team it's bad for dragonite. Therefore I'd advise a leftovers. That really helps with stealth rock. Also even though its weaker Dragon claw makes it so you can attack with earthquake. Using DD outrage sorta sucks because once you use it you got two problems. 1: Your locked in which means steel types can come in and wall you (In scizors case 2hko you with bullet punch) 2: Your confused as soon as outrage is done which means you'll be caught with an extra powerful confusion that will practically force you to switch or lose all that hard work you had to put into the first DD. My suggestion is Dragon Claw over Outrage.

 

[mtr]

All right, let's start from the top.

Gengar: It's an old fashioned lead, and one that has definitely lost its effectiveness with the coming of Platinum. I believe that you could instead move Swampert to the lead position and use something else, as sleep support doesn't help your team as much as immediate damage would (sleep support really helps hyper-offensive teams, but bulky offense teams like Paralysis or Toxic Spikes better). Your call, though. See my comments on Skarmory for more information.

Swampert:No comments here. A lot of people prefer Mixpert, but I don't, and I'm glad that you don't. Roar is good on a physical Swampert, as it lets you beat Mixperts trying to do the same in terms of speed.

Skarmory:Is this necessary? Toxic Spikes give your team more help, as they effectively remove Blissey from contention against Heatran and Latias, thus allowing Latias to easily sweep. So consider a Forretress, who can lay down Toxic Spikes. Since this isn't a stall team, use this set.

Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP/112 Atk/144 Def
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball
- Reflect / Explosion
---

Yes, I know using Skarmory feels a lot sexier. But your team can make better use of this guy. Reflect really helps Latias beat physical threats, since all its counters are physical.

And you should really never use Spikes or Toxic Spikes without a bulky ghost. So if you removed the Gengar, put in a Rotom form, a Rest-talk variant, to defeat Gyarados more easily and block Rapid Spin.

Rotom-h @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/76 Def/180 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Anything but W-o-W or TWave
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
---

Latias, Dragonite, and Heatran are cool.

tl;dr: The point is to develop Latias into a threat. Using Forretress for Toxic Spikes and Reflect and a Rotom form to block Rapid Spinning helps a lot. Skarmory isn't a good Gyara counter anymore because most of them are bulky again. A Rotom form is better.

 

[Bad Ass]

heh, nice team you have. i love utilizing pokemon with similar counters, they work so well at breaking down the opposition and cleaning them up. dual dragons does this particularly well, as it has only one resistance, steel. now, when the goal of your team is to use double dragons to sweep you always always ALWAYS need a magnezone. he destroys, or at least weakens up, those nasty steel types that ruin a potential latias or dragonite sweep. so, the main problem here is that you cant eliminate the steel types efficiently, which makes magnezone an amazing fit. your dragon types cover his weaknesses perfectly, as a bonus. both latias and dragonite get resistances to ground, fire, and fighting typed attacks, as well as instant recovery to heal off all the damage they took, so they come back in again and again. not to mention magnezone's 13 resistances, which include bug, dark, ice, and dragon. magnezone will really help out your team. now the only problem is where you could fit in a magnezone, and what set to use. i'll tackle the first problem first, as removing a pokemon could change what magnezone you're running. looking at your pokemon, the thing i see that is the least useful and most replacable to your team is your lead gengar. he doesnt really look like he helps much to your team. first of all, it is beaten by many common leads. secondly, you have another pokemon on your team that functions well as a lead-swampert. use this set

swampert @ leftovers
relaxed 252 hp / 252 def / 4 spa

~ stealth rock
~ ice beam
~ surf
~ earthquake

now we decide what magnezone set you're running. as of now you have one solid lucario check (scarf heatran), one that can beat it without stealth rocks (dragonite) , and one that can possibly revenge, while taking around 85% damage (latias). scarf magnezone would add another check to lucario, and beat non-scarf heatrans at lower health. substitute magnezone would also work well. it can be quite bulky with the proper evs, and can do things like take 2 outrages from a +1 ddmence, whereas scarfzone is more offensively geared. not to say subzone isnt offensive-to the contrary! subzone generally runs modest and max special attack. i personally feel that scarfzone is better here. even though you have a scarf heatran, another revenge killer is always great to have. for scarfed magnezone, i suggest this

Magnezone @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
Timid nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Explosion
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon

for sub use

Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 228 HP/100 Def/84 SAtk/96 SDef
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Thunderbolt
- Charge Beam

i hope i helped!

 

[Lord Liam]

Gengar @ Focus Sash
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP/ 252 SpA / 252 Sp
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
~Hypnosis
~Focus Blast/Hidden Power Fire
~Shadow Ball
~Explosion

Max Speed allows Gengar to outspeed many common leads, using Shadow Ball to OHKO or Hypnosis if a 2HKO isn't possible (with Focus Sash 2 attacks are almost guaranteed, as most leads that outspeed Gengar usually start with Taunt or Stealth Rocks). Explosion allows me to net a kill when Gar is almost down.

You're good if you go Explosion over Destiny Bond. You may also want to give Hidden Power[Fire] over Focus Blast a try.

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Nature: Impish (+Def, -SpA)
~Stealth Rock
~Roar
~Earthquake
~Avalanche

Swamperts bulk allows me set up Stealth Rocks nearly every battle, and then Roar to scout the opponent's team and rack up some entry damage. Earthquake and Avalanche have great type coverage together, and Avalanche is one of my favorite ways of killing dragons, especially Salamence.

Looks good.

Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def/ 40 Sp.Def / 16 Spe
Nature: Impish (+Def, -SpA)
~Brave Bird
~Spikes
~Roost
~Whirlwind

After some experimentation, I have come to the conclusion that this set is the standard smogon spiker because it works the best. It has almost identical coverage when compared with Swampert, but the pairing of the two provides excellent coverage, as Swampert sponges Fire and is immune to Electric attacks, while skarmory can take Grass attacks that would normally OHKO Swampert.

I recommend running Obi's Skarmory, I'll give you the EVs:
252 HP, 200 Def, 40 Sp.Def, 16 Speed, Impish Nature

Latias @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 128 HP / 128 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
~Calm Mind
~Recover
~Surf
~Dragon Pulse

Usually the most valuble of this team, Latias should be considered Uber factoring in how good she is! After a Calm Mind, not even STAB Ice Beams or Shadow Balls can stop her, and her lightning fast speed allows her to recover off any damage she takes. STAB Dragon Pulse and Surf give Latias incredible coverage, hitting everything for atleast neutral damage except for Empoleon and the rare Shedinja. Steels can wall Latias for a while, but after a few CMs nothing can withstand a Surf.

I recommend running an offensive version of Latias, she's bulky enough as it is. You can find this on Latias's analysis page.

Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 196 Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
~Dragon Dance
~Roost
~Outrage
~Earthquake

Why use Dragonite over Salamence? I chose this pokemon because of it's bulk, wide movepool the fact that many Pokemon only pack enough power to OHKO Mence, and not Nite. Dragonites bulk allows him take unexpected super effective attacks and respond with a DDed EQ or Outrage. Though not as immediately as threatening, after scouting possible counters in the early/mid game, I can bring Dragonite in and often set up multiple Dragon Dances. Outrage is main STAB attack and destroys anything that isn't steel. Earthquake allows me maim most steels that wall Outrage, such as Heatran who would otherwise wall this set and strike back hard with Choice Scarf Dragon Pulse. Bronzong is not struck by Earthquake, and Outrage barely scratchs the metal bell. This is where my next Pokemon comes in.

I love Bulky Dragonite, and your set looks really solid. Though I must ask, what does 196 speed EVs give you? Any specific reason why you added that many EVs into the stat?

Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive (+Spe, -SpD)
~Fire Blast
~Earth Power
~Hidden Power [Ice]
~Explosion

This is my revenge killer, anyone who has played Heatran knows the value of prediction, which is why Skarmory and Swampert are so important. He kills the steels who wall Dragonite and Latias, but there is always the risk of accidently powering up an opponents Heatran switch-in. Dragon Pulse is a good option if you are not sure what your opponent will switch in, often hitting dragons super-effectively who are looking to switch in and set up on on a Heatran locked into Fire Blast.

Excellent set, but you may opt to use Hidden Power[Ice] over Dragon Pulse to nab the OHKO on Salamence, who you are currently weak to.

Minor grammar fixes here and there, and some helpful advice. Add the grammar changes to your RMT to make it look nicer.

-Lord Liam

 

[KL leon901]

what i would normaly say was already said,but you should drop 4 hp evs and place then in speed,252 hp evs make nite die the fourth time it enter on SR,if you run 248 it take 5 switch ins to kill,also change lum berry to lefs,it grant extra bulk,a yache berry is also not a bad idea,since you can take ice hits a lot better if using,i also prefer bulk nite over mence,but that is what i can say for this rate.