GARCHOMP Tier Discussion Thread

[1059860]

FOR THE POLL: Please READ the thread first before voting! Note that the poll is taken in consideration of ALL forms of Garchomps. For the many of you who voted it for the test or Uber, explain why it is too strong, and for the ones who voted for OU, explain how is it not overcentralizing the game. Or else your votes would be quite obsolete, if you cannot put an argument to it. WANTING IT TO STAY IN OU BECAUSE OF YOU LIKE IT IS NOT A REASON, so if you are standing on that side, put a better argument. :D

Oh, the infamous Garchomp. With various ways of using and a large movepool. Today, of course, Garchomp is OU, but...

#1) There's not one counter that is purely SAFE to switch into a Garchomp, unless it is locked to a choice set. (Encorers probably will get killed by this thing.)

#2) Base Stats: 108 / 130 / 95 / 90 / 85 / 102
The base speed CAN allow it to outspeed the huge load of Pokemon with base speed 100, 95 or lower... (Obviously)

#3) Scarf set, with Adamant STAB 120-Power Outrage can HURT.

#4) It does learn Fire Blast to take out things like Skarmory, Bronzong and Metagross.

#5) It has been proven that a Garchomp CAN take a Well-trained Kingdra's STAB Surf in Rain!

#6) Sandstorm + Bright Powder + Sand Veil = Miss, Miss, Hit (finally), but YOU got killed... Ice Shard FTW fails if missed, and Weavile/Mamoswine dies upon taking any damage from Garchomp. Sash won't work due to Sandstorm. Just giving everyone an idea. Sandstream + Sand Veil + BrightPowder = 72% accuracy on all attacks other than the ones that cannot miss, on this thing called Garchomp. Here's a calculation of the missing chances:

There would be 1 - (.72 x .72 x .72) = 62.6752% that something will hit it all 3 turns. So there's a 37.3248% chance that at least 1 move will miss out of 3 turns of sub.

Taking advantage of replacing Brightpowder with Leftovers, allowing 4 substitutes with the slight heal, you will have 1 - (.8 x .8 x .8 x .8) = 59.04% of hitting all 3 turns, which is 40.96% chance of having the opponent missing at least 1 move. This is actually even better than the Brightpowder idea really, but of course, it leaves you with less HP after 4 Subs and the Leftover on an Item Claused game.

So yes, in general, it has a 37-41% chance of missing... Not 2%.

#7) Also, if for some odd but obvious reason that one do carry Yache Berry on Garchomp, it CAN take Ice Shard with a good EV spread and IV attribute.

#8) Dragonite/Salamence are NOT immune to Thunder Wave. Garchomp is.

#9) Cresselia's Moonlight healing: Screwed up by Sandstorm.

THE MAIN QUESTION IS: IS IT TOO BROKEN IN OU?

I was glancing at this thread and it seems those who are coming up with reasons why Garchomp should stay OU are only picking out one part of Garchomp and ignoring the rest.

Garchomp has Excellent defensive and offensive stats. Garchomp is a top tier OU pokemon so much so that it topped the mightly Blissey for the 1# Overused pokemon in the game. Garchomps STAB combo of Ground/Dragon is almost unresisted. Sand Veil with SS only boosts Garchomp futher by making pokemon that are supposed to counter him miss. Has a plethora of many powerful sets that can mess up counters coming in and expecting another.

So can anyone elaborate on why people only choose one part of Garchomp to give an opinion on and ignore the rest when saying it should stay in OU?

So put more argument overall rather than just one part :D.

--- Any other factors please post. I can only think of so much right now xD. Please discuss? :naughty:

Question is: Should Garchomp be moved to Uber?

Also, the definition of OVERCENTRALIZING is: One or more Pokemon is forced to be included on a certain team to counter a certain Pokemon or its setup. For example: Blissey or Shedinja for Kyogres. (Other counters such as Lati@s, Groudon, etc are not counters because they cannot be safely switched in.)

Donphan takes 45-53% from CB EQ and 54-63% from Outrage.

I love it when counters gets 2hko'd. Meanwhile Donphan's Ice Shard only does 41-48% to Garchomp with no defensive EV's. If you have CB, then it does 61-73%. If Donphan is the best counter, then wow, Garchomp would be on every team.

Just to give you guys an idea. Also, Agility Metagross does GREAT on switching into Weavile/Mamoswine/Donphan's band Ice Shards.

*Side note: Don't just say "he's OU because he is now", that doesn't give much info.
And don't say "It's OU because I love it too much!"... I love Mewtwo. He is not OU...

"Just because something sucks in Ubers is no reason to keep it in OU." Please look at Garchomp in how good OR overpowered he is in OU, not how horrible he will do in Uber. Just to let you know, without scarf, he can outspeed Rayquaza. With Scarf: He can outspeed Palkia, Latias, Latios, Dialga, Darkrai, Giratina, etc... (Outrage kills probably all besides maybe Dialga and Giratina). Dialga is killed by STAB Earthquake.
However, if you DO look in the perspective of Uber, Kyogre/Groudon/Rayquaza's change in weather or Air-Lock automatically eat the Sand Veil + BrightPowder type of Garchomp...

SO DISCUSS AWAY :D.

 

[xcfrisco]

I'm not gonna doubt that Garchomp in nigh-broken and he centralizes the game, but not to the point where its impossible to win because another person has Garchomp on their team and you don't.

But I think this just goes back to Obi's thread as to what exactly we consider Uber.

*Ninja edit, can we please post on the front page that a pokemon being uber has no relevance to how good it does in the "uber metagame."

 

[Endeby]

No! moving him to ubers will just make pokemons like Salamence, Tyranitar and the rest of the titans too good. Garmchom IS the best OU pokemon right now. but not broken(Ice Shard ftw?)

 

[1059860]

He OUTSPEEDS Rayquaza.
And you know that SCARFCHOMP is quite popular... So what if it does have Scarf? Does that mean that you need scarfers in Uber tier for once just to beat that thing, unless you're talking about a Giratina, which is still not SAFE to switch into Garchomp's Outrage?

 

[sanjay120]

And before we get any more replies like the first one, just because something sucks in Ubers is no reason to keep it in OU.

I don't have much of a problem killing off Garchomp with my main team. Non-Scarf is HP Ice'd by Scarfrade, Scarf/Outrage is Gyro Balled by Forry.

 

[animenagai]

nope, keep him in OU. i know he's a beast i i find him harder to fit on a team than salamence because mence has a better ability and evades ground moves. i only find garchomp special when it's scarfed and even then it's got its weaknesses. kill that thing with donphan/mamoswine all the time.

 

[forbidden]

He OUTSPEEDS Rayquaza.
And you know that SCARFCHOMP is quite popular... So what if it does have Scarf? Does that mean that you need scarfers in Uber tier for once just to beat that thing, unless you're talking about a Giratina, which is still not SAFE to switch into Garchomp's Outrage?

Lugia?

If you die to Bright Powder chomp, then its just pure bad luck.(Or good luck for your opponent :naughty:)

 

[DemonOfWrath]

Remember, Garchomp's tier status is not affected in the slightest by how it will perform in Ubers, it may end up not seeing the light of day very often, such as Wob and normal Deoxys and may be outclassed completely there, but all that matters for its tier status is if its too unbalancing for OU.

The main thing I find about Garchomp to be too strong is Sand Veil (whos idea was that?), running a SS team I'll often end up losing my max defense Hippowdon (even at full health) to a sub SD 'Chomp because of Sand Veil, where without it I'd kill it. If Sandstorm is going he's an absolute horror to deal with, but otherwise, he's not much more threatening than a Tyranitar or Lucario.

 

[Kira]

For the defense of Garchomp" Ubers would ruin Garchomp because Sandstorm is rare to see with Kyogre/Rayquaza/Groudon running around. It would be severely outclassed and it would cease to be the deadly force it is.

On the offense: Garchomp is too powerful for OU. It centralizes the metagame, has no clear counters, and the only hope of hitting it with an Ice attack is to trap it during an outrage (of course, the only way to switch in safely is to hope your current pokemon dies before it ends).

The addition of sand veil is what really makes him uber. Even without Bpowder sand veil will make countering this guy rely on luck. I switch in Gengar for example, my HP Ice misses.... you KO me. In this example even the one thing that can counter it fails to because of sand veil.


My personal opinion: I would choose to ban BrightPowder variations. Even breaking it's sub turns into a risky game of luck, and even if you do that it can simply sub again and you are very likely to miss.

I really think Nintendo dropped the bomb by giving it sand veil. I think it unbalances the Metagame, and I would move it to Ubers despite the fact that it would perform badly there.

I think that Nintendo will take away Sand Veil next gen (assuming they give a shit about the metagame) and then he can move back to OU.... sand veil just really makes him too unbalanced. This has happened to me too many times

1. Garchomp used Sub
2. Snorlax (with 6 curses up btw) used EQ, but missed.
3. Garchomp used SD
4. I miss
5. Gar continues to sub and sometimes even gets max attack
6. I hit, Garchomps sub broke.
7. Gar KO'es Snorlax
8. I send out Gengar (scarf)
9. HP Ice misses
10. Gar subs

It is just too fucking hard to counter that thing because you miss all the damn time.

 

[Flash_gearz]

effect coud be worse. It could have Intimidate, or Speed Boost, in which that would make it godly.

But no, I love having Chainchomp on my team too much. It still can be killed, but it takes luck to figure out it's set

 

[Kira]

You argument is retarded. You can't say "this Poke is Ou cause I like him too much"

I mean I fucking love Kyogre... plus all it does is make rain it could be worse.... it should be OU according to your logic.


And yes, it takes luck to kill.... too much luck. Anything that can remotly KO it has to deal with potential sand veil, which helps it way more than intimidate or speed boost.

 

[1059860]

But no, I love having Chainchomp on my team too much. It still can be killed, but it takes luck to figure out it's set

You want to have it as OU because you want to be able to use it JUST BECAUSE YOURS poweraids the team isn't a very helpful way of supporting it as OU... It's pushing your way to have it to be an Uber... You obviously stated that it is strong, especially when you said "it takes LUCK to figure out its set"...

 

[animenagai]

For the defense of Garchomp" Ubers would ruin Garchomp because Sandstorm is rare to see with Kyogre/Rayquaza/Groudon running around. It would be severely outclassed and it would cease to be the deadly force it is.

On the offense: Garchomp is too powerful for OU. It centralizes the metagame, has no clear counters, and the only hope of hitting it with an Ice attack is to trap it during an outrage (of course, the only way to switch in safely is to hope your current pokemon dies before it ends).

The addition of sand veil is what really makes him uber. Even without Bpowder sand veil will make countering this guy rely on luck. I switch in Gengar for example, my HP Ice misses.... you KO me. In this example even the one thing that can counter it fails to because of sand veil.

you think so? i dunno, i never seem to have a garchomp weakness. maybe because i always have ice shard and i like to predict a switch. i do have a lot of ice on my teams though. always.

 

[1059860]

you think so? i dunno, i never seem to have a garchomp weakness. maybe because i always have ice shard and i like to predict a switch. i do have a lot of ice on my teams though. always.

Not everyone have, nor even should have 25 Ice moves on one team ya know. Despite the fact that with BrightPowder and Sand Veil, it can still avoid Ice Shard.

I'm not pro or con on this Garchomp, which is why I'm hosting a DISCUSSION, but just generally stating a point about your Ice-Move team.

 

[xcfrisco]

effect coud be worse. It could have Intimidate, or Speed Boost, in which that would make it godly.

I would pay $1000 dollars to have Garchomp with either of those traits. You'll never have to worry about hax again, but its apples to oranges. We're not debating if another trait would make Garchomp more or less broken.

I too am of the opinion that sandveil makes Garchomp too good.

 

[kukki-sama]

This is why you stack your teams with dragon counters

 

[1059860]

This is why you stack your teams with dragon counters

Having your whole team stacked as Dragon counters (Ice/Dragon moves) doesn't do you any good against a Metagross/Bronzong or any steel type in General.

 

[Kira]

you think so? i dunno, i never seem to have a garchomp weakness. maybe because i always have ice shard and i like to predict a switch. i do have a lot of ice on my teams though. always.

Ice Shard can miss.... should we all be forced to carry Donphan on our team because of him? Last time I checked, if everyone is forced to carry a certain pokemon on their team to counter another than that pokemon is broken.

Also I didnt mention weaville because if weaville misses than it is dead because it is so frail.


Also we shouldnt be forced to have 4/6 pokemon on our team to be dragon counters. That over centralizes the metagame.

 

[forbidden]

Not everyone have, nor even should have 25 Ice moves on one team ya know. Despite the fact that with BrightPowder and Sand Veil, it can still avoid Ice Shard.

I'm not pro or con on this Garchomp, which is why I'm hosting a DISCUSSION, but just generally stating a point about your Ice-Move team.

Most if not all walls pack an ice attack to deal with dragons. Its either Electric for Gyarados or Ice for Dragons really.

The people who think Sand veil is broken have been victims of the bright powder set which is only 28% under sandstorm iirc. They could easily just ban bright powder on chomp to reduce that HAX chance which would make it more balanced.

 

[xcfrisco]

This is why you stack your teams with dragon counters

This is the definition over-centralizing the metagame too much.

 

[animenagai]

Ice Shard can miss.... should we all be forced to carry Donphan on our team because of him? Last time I checked, if everyone is forced to carry a certain pokemon on their team to counter another than that pokemon is broken.

Also I didnt mention weaville because if weaville misses than it is dead because it is so frail.


Also we shouldnt be forced to have 4/6 pokemon on our team to be dragon counters. That over centralizes the metagame.

i don't think the dragon counter thing is just for garchomp though. mence's are running all over the place. ice is a pretty versatile type too. i dunno, maybe i just haven't played d/p pre-garchomp but i don't think it's that bad.

 

[1059860]

Most if not all walls pack an ice attack to deal with dragons. Its either Electric for Gyarados or Ice for Dragons really.

The people who think Sand veil is broken have been victims of the bright powder set which is only 28% under sandstorm iirc. They could easily just ban bright powder on chomp to reduce that HAX chance which would make it more balanced.

Oh, just wondering, how would you know if Garchomp is holding BrightPowder? You can't just assume because you missed. Maybe it just missed because of Sand Veil, or maybe the move doesn't have 100% accuracy... You can't just disconnect simply because you missed a move or two, unless you are forced with get a Frisk user.

 

[Slice n Dice]

In all honesty I think Garchomp is too good for OU. It is very versatile, with godlike stats, a powerhouse movepool, great defenses, and a gamebreaking ability, he centralizes the OU metagame. I'm not sure if he should be moved out of OU, as Garchomp going to ubers would be pretty stupid.

 

[kukki-sama]

Having your whole team stacked as Dragon counters (Ice/Dragon moves) doesn't do you any good against a Metagross/Bronzong or any steel type in General.

I dont mean everyone. I mean like 2 or 3 with an ice shard or ice beam thats all. I dont think anyone is that dumb to cover only one type though.

 

[xcfrisco]

The people who think Sand veil is broken have been victims of the bright powder set which is only 28% under sandstorm iirc. They could easily just ban bright powder on chomp to reduce that HAX chance which would make it more balanced.

iirc, Sand Veil provides 20% evasion. BrightPowder makes this problem slightly worse, but its not really the issue because all pokemon have access to BP's "benefits."

The fact that Sand Veil gives the most dangerous pokemon in the game a 1/5 chance of having a FREE turn (sandstorm is a near ubiquitous envrioment) regardless what happens is really really lame, like, broken lame.