Knock Off

[DTC]

In a tier where most Pokemon rely on their item to be successful, Knock Off is very useful. If a really bulky Pokemon, such as Porygon, is just tanking every hit you throw at it, it can be really annoying. However, once you use Knock Off on it, it suddenly becomes a lot easier to defeat.


Here is a list of Pokemon with Knock Off in LC:

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Abra
Aipom
Anorith
Archen
Azurill
Bellsprout
Bulbasaur
Chingling
Corphish
Croagunk
Cubone
Doduo
Drifloon
Gastly
Glameow
Gligar
Goldeen
Kabuto
Karrablast
Krabby
Ledbya
Lickitung
Machop
Meowth
Mincinno
Mienfoo
Omanyte
Paras
Phanpy
Sandshrew
Sentret
Shuppet
Skorupi
Tentacool
Tirtouga
Vullaby
Wingull
Woobat

As you can see, Knock Off has a very wide distribution; however, most of the Pokemon in that list can't use it effectively or are terrible in LC in general. The best Knock Off users are Pokemon who are bulky, have a decent offensive presence, have a good amount of resistances, have useful moves such as U-turn and Recover, and don't worry so much about moveslots. Of course, no Pokemon has all of that, but a good Knock Off user should have most of that. Mienfoo + Gligar make a very good Knock Off core who can switch into numerous things and cripple stuff. Some lesser used Pokemon, such as Vullaby and Tentacool, are great at crippling stuff with Knock Off as they don't have to worry about missing out on too many useful moves and have great defense. Vullaby and Tentacool are also good checks to Misdreavus.

There are also numerous Pokemon that can abuse the lack of Eviolite. Murkrow, Ponyta, Elekid, Misdreavus, Gligar, Staryu, and various other Pokemon enjoy Eviolite's being removed and can practically 2HKO everything afterwords while outspeeding them. Knocking Off items such as Choice Scarf is also useful, as often many teams have to rely on Choice Scarf users to revenge threats.

I've actually made a team that aims to knock off all the Eviolites off a Pokemon then sweep with Murkrow or Ponyta. Basically Mienfoo / Gligar / Omanyte knock off all the Pokemon with Eviolite that can wall Murkrow or Ponyta, then sweep with one of the two. TrickScarf Misdreavus is in there to revenge stuff and that's another way that you can remove Eviolite.

Questions to be answered in this thread:

• How viable is Knock Off in LC?
• Is it worth using Knock Off over another move that Pokemon might have?
• How useful is removing Eviolite's and other items? Is it a viable strategy?
• What Pokemon can use Knock Off effectively, and do they have to dedicate a whole moveset just to use it effectively?
• How do you deal with a Pokemon that has Knock Off?

Discuss; I'm curious to see what people think of the move Knock Off and good users of it.

 

[Ray Jay]

I think Mienfoo is unarguably the most efficient user of Knock Off in the current metagame. Basically, you have that free slot after DPunch / Fake Out / U-turn, so Knock Off is a natural choice (among HJK or Low Sweep). I really like Knock Off on teams with sweepers that sometimes barely miss a 2hko on some of their checks; a good example of this is Snover and its check, Porygon. Also significant is Elekid and Ponyta, as you've mentioned, as with a Life Orb, those two can really clean up due to massive Speed and Attack stats.

However, it could be argued that a surprising Knock Off is more devastating than an expected one (currently, not a lot of people run Knock Off Mienfoo but whatever). A good example of this is on a team I used last meta with Knock Off Tentacool; the concept was that I use the synergy between Tentacool and Houndour and a Ground-immune Pokemon (in this meta, Gligar comes to mind). Tentacool gets a surprise Knock Off, Life Orb Houndour comes in on a Psychic type attack, for example. With some prediction, Knock Off swings most matches in your favor, as all it takes is getting certain checks without their Eviolite and now it's GG.

 

[spuds4ever]

I would say knock off is a generally good attack. However, the thing that it only works once can be an issue. You have to balance up if sacrificing a move slot on something like mienfoo over HP ice for example (mostly if you're running a scarf set) or something like HJK/Drain punch, whichever you haven't taken yet, and don't forget taunt, another very under-rated and useful move on mienfoo. Once the opponent knows you have it, they can just keep on switching in their now itemless pokemon on the knock off. Often, though, the pay-off will be worth it.

I think for certain things that don't really suffer from 4mss, like tentacool, as ray said, it would be really good.

It could make a very interesting strategy, I think, as once the opponent has figured out what you're doing, you've probably knocked off 2 or 3 eviolites already and opened a sweep for something like elekid or drillbur.

Dealing with it could be awkward as usually it will get you by surprise, but if that does happen, it would be obvious to switch in the itemless pokemon in on the knock off. Sticky hold is also a viable option to deal with it, shelmet comes to mind, though shellos will generally want storm drain more I think.

 

[DTC]

Once the opponent knows you have it, they can just keep on switching in their now itemless pokemon on the knock off. Often, though, the pay-off will be worth it.

That is true; however, that Pokemon is now crippled, and probably isn't nearly as useful as it was before. Unless, of course, it was a Pokemon that doesn't mind their item being removed that much, such as Flying Gem Gligar.

It's not like you have to Knock Off a bunch of Pokemon on a team, just a select few and now you may be able to sweep.

Here is an example:

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240SpAtk +2 lvl 5 Misdreavus (Neutral) Shadow Ball vs 212HP/116SpDef Eviolite Dry Skin lvl 5 Croagunk (Neutral): 66% - 87% (16 - 21 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Here, Croagunk would be able to KO Misdreavus through a combination of Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball and Sucker Punch. However, if its Eviolite is knocked off:

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240SpAtk +2 lvl 5 Misdreavus (Neutral) Shadow Ball vs 212HP/116SpDef Dry Skin lvl 5 Croagunk (Neutral): 104% - 129% (25 - 31 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

BOOM, it's dead.

Here's another one involving Misdreavus:

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240SpAtk +2 lvl 5 Misdreavus (Neutral) Hidden Power (Fighting) vs 236HP/0SpDef Eviolite lvl 5 Porygon (Neutral): 69% - 84% (18 - 22 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Yay, Porygon survives and can retaliate with Shadow Ball, doing a lot of damage to Misdreavus. HOWEVER, with Porygon's Eviolite knocked off:

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240SpAtk +2 lvl 5 Misdreavus (Neutral) Hidden Power (Fighting) vs 236HP/0SpDef lvl 5 Porygon (Neutral): 100% - 123% (26 - 32 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

These are only 2 examples of how only knocking off certain Eviolites can be useful. I feel as if knocking off Eviolites can be a very important strategy for offensive LC teams, as if a big defensive threat gets their Eviolite knocked off, your team has a much easier time sweeping.

This brings me to another question:

• What Pokemon can abuse the lack of Eviolite on certain Pokemon, and how big of an impact to the game there is when the item is removed?

There are of course the ones I already listed in this thread, but there are probably more out there, and I think we could explore more specific examples.

 

[Methmite]

Here, Croagunk would be able to KO Croagunk through a combination of Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball and Sucker Punch.

Just a lil mistake :3

I've used Mienfoo a lot as a utility pokemon with varying sets involving Low Sweep, Drain Punch, Uturn and filler (credit goes to Emma for the set; I've just tweeked it a lot to fit my teams). In that filler I've had a lot of practice with knock off, taunt, HJK, and HP Ice. I bring this up because of one thing: A lot of the mons that are able to put Knock Off to good use have better moves to fill the slot. On this mienfoo, for example, HJK provides a stronger stab, while taunt allows for a stallbreaking set, and HP Ice acts as a Gligar lure as at min SpA (with negative nature) HP Ice will OHKO after a Low Sweep. So while yes knock off has a *huge* distrobution, the viable mons that *can* use it are often better off using something else.

You also mentioned something else; about how Knock off is a viable strategy for offensive teams, but i just dont see it. Of course the lack of eviolite will be loved by the frail sweepers who require their OHKO's to work, but the support is just redundant. You have to spend time dragging out and knocking off eviolites of walls and in my opinion thats just time better spent setting up. Hazards do basically the exact same thing as knock off, because it does damage after every switch in. Baton Passing boosts (slowly becoming more popular) works just as well. In otherwords; I see it as a sort of "Howl vs Tail Whip" sort of thing; boosting your own damage output is more reliable, easier to pull off, and generally more effective than lowering their defenses (cause you can switch and the Tail whip -1 def is removed - its a crap analogy but you get my point).

To be clear, I'm not saying "LOL KNOCK OFF IS TERRIBLE AND HAS NO PLACE ON AN OFFENSIVE TEAM," cause that's just not true. I just think that using a "Knock off core" on an offensive team is silly and a waste of slots (both move and pokemon). Knock off *does* have its place on an offensive team but I find it's more for Choice scarfs. In today's meta there's 3 types of revengers: 19 speed scarfers, 14 speed scarfers, Priority Abuse. Knock off removes the Life Orb (or eviolite if you're running Croa) of priority abuse and eliminates the speed advantage of scarfers (of course chances are the 19 speed scarfers are still out speeding you if you dont have a bosot, or your name isnt elekid). Basically; I think the biggest threat to Offensive teams in LC (especially because the speed teirs are so close) is anything faster than your team. The majority of walls in this meta are either specialized (Like gligar and Slowpoke) to a specific spectrum, or lack recovery (like bronzor). And while eviolite makes it harder to deal with some of the walls like gligar who are decently bulky on both sides and have recovery (other examples are like; lileep), you will rarely run into multiple examples of this on the same team (unless you're vs stall).

TL;DR Knock off has it's uses as a Utility move. As in a move that can perform a whole bunch of tasks, but not one of them well - a jack of all trades, if you will. Limiting it to just wallbreaking limits the uses of the move. Putting it on more than one mon is just sucking up slots; you will very rarely need to knock off more than twice in a game.


I hope my rambling made sense: if it didnt just say and I'll try and clarify a point.


Someother intersting stuff about knock off that hasnt really been talked about:

It's got base 20 atk, so you dont have to give a shit about stab - furthering the amount of "viable" distribution.

It punishes switches a lot; so can really be abused with entry hazards (specifically spikes of both varieties)

 

[prem]

i have to agree to meth that its honestly a utility move. its a great move in little cup, but unless the pokemon is fairy bulky and can afford to take a hit just to remove somethings evioltie (mienfoo) its hardly ever worth using. the only time knock off is considered is when it honestly has nothing better to use. tirtouga, abra, and omanyte would never consider using knock off because they just need the extra coverage move they could have instead of removing what is hopefully an eviolite from a mon.

if we think about what can use eviolite effectively, its probably about everything that gets the damn move. any powerful mon loves the opponent to not have an eviolite, because without an eviolite its so easy to kill them. abra would easily be able to break through porygon without eviolite, while gligar could probably man handle bronzor at +2 (assuming you still have the gem and the thing got knocked off). the issue with that is that they cant afford to waste a moveslot on that (gligar probably could lol but not the point). normally nothing uses a whole set based around knock off because its pretty niche, and making a whole set just to remove somethings eviolite would be a pretty bad mon.

for lols you can run sticky hold grimer to beat knock off mons, but its honestly easier just to kill the mienfoo using knock off. there are so many viable checks in lc that do not need eviolite to break mienfoo that its not even a problem in most cases.

 

[Trakyan]

Knock off if you ask me is a good move on a team wanting a sweep, getting a pokemon defense to 66% of what it was is usefull and it doesnt wear off after they switch since they dont get their item back like that, wether its worth dedicating 2+ mons to it or even a moveslot that could be spent on something else on it is another question. Some pokes are low on usable moves and knock off is amazing on them but generally you have the option of hitting them with a twenty base power attack before hitting them for 1/3 more damage i find it more effective to bash them with two powerfull STAB(or otherwise strong) attacks or something unless they have recovery and spam it to stall you.