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Kyurem
- Thread starter Aerrow
- Start date
Yeah I made some miscalculations earlier, my apologies. I'm sitting here thinking Kyuremu is weak against fire/ground, but in fact, it only hits him for neutral damage. Ho-oh wouldn't be as good a counter as I thought.
Ice-eyes
Simper Fi
Because it's largely outclassed by Palkia.
No...It isn't.
Off the Bat Nintendo needs to get me as a srite designer.. ot at least a conception artist. I had already had this cool Ice/dragon dreamed up... then we get this... apart from the sprite lookign all but frail... dragon.ice is frail with its many weaknesses... the stats arent to great. its weaknesses are common types so despite it being "Legendary" it will fail
Stone Edge is pretty useless on Kyuremu. It allows it to OHKO Ho-Oh and that's like it. Outrage 2hko's Ho-Oh already and Kyuremu is already faster than Ho-oh. Ice Beam and Draco Meteor also do considerable damage to him.
Heatran, Tyranitar, Scizor and Diagla can be taken care of by Focus Blast. Tbh Metragross, Defensive Kyogre and Bronzong are the only real "good switchins" for Kyuremu and Hp Fire can cause problems for the Steels.
I'm actually pretty curious as to how this thing will fare in OU at first as it could possibly end up there.
A pokemon with a 660 BST in OU where the highest are 600 doesn't seem feasible.
When pokemon are sent to ubers there is no consideration for how well they will fare, things don't go from OU to ubers because they suck in ubers, which I think Kyuremu will.
Just looking at its stats it has a huge inferiority complex to almost every other Dragon in the tier. Rayquaza matches its defenses and speed with 150/150 attack stats as opposed to 130...
Reshiram and Zekrom outperform it defensively in typing and in stats, and in SpA and Atk respectively. Palkia bests it similarly to Reshiram, just with a different typing, less bulk, and more speed.
Even Salamence and Garchomp offer higher speed with more or less matching Attack stats... Dialga's typing alone spells doom for it.
Someone made a comparison to Giratina O? Giratina O offers an infinitely better offensive typing and movepool, and whilst its attacking stats are slightly lower, Giratina O can still take its better.
Lets not even make jokes about Dragon/Ice's defensive qualities, it robs dragon of its Fire resistance in exchange for Ice neutrality and and Fighting/Rock/Steel weaknesses. And its still weak to Dragon. And with the new legends in this gen Fighting, Rock, and Steel could become significantly more common attacking types in ubers.
IMO I just think Kyu is overhyped and it will see more use if it gets a second form of some kind.
When pokemon are sent to ubers there is no consideration for how well they will fare, things don't go from OU to ubers because they suck in ubers, which I think Kyuremu will.
Just looking at its stats it has a huge inferiority complex to almost every other Dragon in the tier. Rayquaza matches its defenses and speed with 150/150 attack stats as opposed to 130...
Reshiram and Zekrom outperform it defensively in typing and in stats, and in SpA and Atk respectively. Palkia bests it similarly to Reshiram, just with a different typing, less bulk, and more speed.
Even Salamence and Garchomp offer higher speed with more or less matching Attack stats... Dialga's typing alone spells doom for it.
Someone made a comparison to Giratina O? Giratina O offers an infinitely better offensive typing and movepool, and whilst its attacking stats are slightly lower, Giratina O can still take its better.
Lets not even make jokes about Dragon/Ice's defensive qualities, it robs dragon of its Fire resistance in exchange for Ice neutrality and and Fighting/Rock/Steel weaknesses. And its still weak to Dragon. And with the new legends in this gen Fighting, Rock, and Steel could become significantly more common attacking types in ubers.
IMO I just think Kyu is overhyped and it will see more use if it gets a second form of some kind.
I just checked on Serebii and there are indeed two mysterious 140 BP ice moves with cool effects floating around with no one to learn them! Its pretty much 10000-1 that Kyuremu will get them at some point (is it possible that it could learn them in BW? The information release process confuses me!)
Kyuremu has an extra 20 hp on Rayquaza, and can take a fairly useful niche role, but in terms of sweeping it has almost nothing on it currently. For whatever reason Ray has an extra 20 Base stats which go in the places they're needed.
Bizarrely enough for something with a fairly poor movepool, it might actually have problems fitting moves in. Just Frozen World, hypothetical Cold Flare/the physical version (one of the 140BP moves with a 30% burn/paralysis chance), and Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor/Outrage, gives it one slot to use as coverage - and this is without any non-attacking move! Focus Blast is probably the best choice but you still have nothing to hit Jirachi or Metagross particularly hard with.
But at the same time, as I said before, this same combination of attacks is evidently incredibly powerful in OU. If Kyuremu can come in safely (not difficult with SR losing usage) and bulky Steels are eliminated something is going to die, and potentially at multiple times throughout a match (e.g. it comes in on a Swampert with Earthquake and Ice Beam. If you're missing your steel (very easy considering they are also needed to take Ononokusu, Salamence, Garchomp, and Sazanda, possibly more) what do you switch to?)
Kyuremu has an extra 20 hp on Rayquaza, and can take a fairly useful niche role, but in terms of sweeping it has almost nothing on it currently. For whatever reason Ray has an extra 20 Base stats which go in the places they're needed.
Bizarrely enough for something with a fairly poor movepool, it might actually have problems fitting moves in. Just Frozen World, hypothetical Cold Flare/the physical version (one of the 140BP moves with a 30% burn/paralysis chance), and Dragon Pulse/Draco Meteor/Outrage, gives it one slot to use as coverage - and this is without any non-attacking move! Focus Blast is probably the best choice but you still have nothing to hit Jirachi or Metagross particularly hard with.
But at the same time, as I said before, this same combination of attacks is evidently incredibly powerful in OU. If Kyuremu can come in safely (not difficult with SR losing usage) and bulky Steels are eliminated something is going to die, and potentially at multiple times throughout a match (e.g. it comes in on a Swampert with Earthquake and Ice Beam. If you're missing your steel (very easy considering they are also needed to take Ononokusu, Salamence, Garchomp, and Sazanda, possibly more) what do you switch to?)
I want to say he's broken, but 130/130/95 is arguably worse than Azelf's 125/125/115 offenses.
He doesn't get Dragon Dance, is Stealth Rock weak, hit by all entry hazards, has a crappy ability and is walled pretty hard by Bronzong / Nuttle / Metagross / Jirachi.
Defenses are great, but I doubt it will truly break through Scizor and Heatran's dominance.
Edit: Is this officially uber?
He doesn't get Dragon Dance, is Stealth Rock weak, hit by all entry hazards, has a crappy ability and is walled pretty hard by Bronzong / Nuttle / Metagross / Jirachi.
Defenses are great, but I doubt it will truly break through Scizor and Heatran's dominance.
Edit: Is this officially uber?
Alright, cold flare is clearly a combination move. It has no pokemon that learn it and it causes a burn. I'm thinking it's combining frozen world with cross flame in doubles, similar to cross thunder followed by cross flame.
I'm fairly sure that nothing is uber yet, not even stuff like Mewtwo, since it looks like PR is still debating whether to test everything or have somewhat of an initial banlist.
Also, I'm pretty sure you mean Azelf's 125/125/115 offenses. xD
His Speed-lowering Attacking is probably gonna be his best bet. After they have -2 Speed, Kyuremo will pretty much always outspeed them. He has nice offensive stats, they certainly aren't the best, but 130 is still monstrous.
Lets Compare him to Giratina-O:
Kyuremu has higher Sp.Atk
Kyuremu has higher Atttack
Kyuremu has higher Speed.
And Giratina-O is considered a Offensive threat without being able to hold Life Orb or Choice items. And he has 120 for his attacking stats. Kyuremu should be fine.
Lets Compare him to Giratina-O:
Kyuremu has higher Sp.Atk
Kyuremu has higher Atttack
Kyuremu has higher Speed.
And Giratina-O is considered a Offensive threat without being able to hold Life Orb or Choice items. And he has 120 for his attacking stats. Kyuremu should be fine.
I'm agreeing with this.
Giratina-O's biggest role in the 4th gen metagame was the offensive Spinblocker (usually a mixed set). Kyuremu doesn't have a Ghost-typing, so that comparison isn't really a fair one.
In terms of raw offensive stats, that is true. However, Kyuremu's movepool is sort of... lacking, whereas Giratina-O has access to lots of moves, such as Aura Sphere, Shadow Sneak, Dragon Pulse, Shadow Ball, Thunder, etc. I think Kyuremu will be good with what look like its two signature 140 BP Ice moves. I compared it to Giratina-O earlier not because it would fulfill a similar role, because it certainly does not, but because I think this is going to be a "sleeper" mon, so to speak.
In terms of raw offensive stats, that is true. However, Kyuremu's movepool is sort of... lacking, whereas Giratina-O has access to lots of moves, such as Aura Sphere, Shadow Sneak, Dragon Pulse, Shadow Ball, Thunder, etc. I think Kyuremu will be good with what look like its two signature 140 BP Ice moves. I compared it to Giratina-O earlier not because it would fulfill a similar role, because it certainly does not, but because I think this is going to be a "sleeper" mon, so to speak.
Problem is, well... Those two moves are charge moves a la Sky Attack and, assuming they are Kyuremu signature moves, will leave it completely helpless the first turn and is really an invitation for any steel-type resistant to ice to come in and setup / kill it, especially when that switch-in is Scizor ready to Bullet Punch Kyuremu for heavy damage. :/
Agreeing with this; until we get a clear explanation of how the move mechanics work for these specific moves, I don't think it will be safe to remove them from the list of viable ideas.
Yeah, I just learned the charging effects. Unfortunately, if they are Sky Attack type moves, which they most likely are (the same BP and accuracy) they will probably not see use. Even with a 30% burn or paralysis effect, that's only 140 over two turns, or 70 per turn. Ice Beam beats that at 95 per turn (and with perfect accuracy). Another possibility that I know Theorymon was talking about, which I'll probably end up trying too, is Claw Sharpen + Blizzard. That boosts it's Attack for a Mixed set (+1 Outrage) and raises it's Blizzard accuracy to acceptable levels outside of hail.
However, if they aren't like Sky Attack, they will give Kyuremu a gargantuan boost in power. 140 BP STAB Ice-type move off 130 Attack or Special Attack will be extremely effective, especially with the chance of a status effect.
However, if they aren't like Sky Attack, they will give Kyuremu a gargantuan boost in power. 140 BP STAB Ice-type move off 130 Attack or Special Attack will be extremely effective, especially with the chance of a status effect.
What I'm hoping is that somehow if it form changes that it would gain a bigger movepool for that type such as if it chooses special form it gains some nice and needed special moves and if it changes to the other it gets physical its the only way I say that can brighten its lacking movepool :/ though it is my favorite I don't see much hope for it in the battle against its typing....
This thing could be incredibly scary, and will likely tilt the 5th gen meta towards the steel-centralized game we saw in the Mence/Latias era. With those two STAB types off of those kind of offensive stats, you would HAVE to have a strong, specially bulky and/or Fighting neutral Steel on hand at all times. Don't even bring to mind that it can spam its steroided Ice Wind on the switch and be faster than anything in the game, most of which it can OHKO. Not going to last long in OU.
Just tested with a hacked Kyuremu with both Freeze Bolt and Cold Flare (not on real cartridge though) , and they are both indeed charge moves with the same behavior as Sky Attack, stuck charging the first turn, then attacked the second turn.
So, unless in the third version Kyuremu receive an alternate forme (likely) with 680 BST (wtf it has 660 to begin with) and an epic alternate ability (possibly exclusive to the third version like for example Always Ready : this ability makes charge moves take a single turn to execute both the charge and the attack, but this is just theorymon) these two moves are obviously a big no-no.
Now if someone is willing to test this on a real cartridge, it would give the definite confirmation.
So, unless in the third version Kyuremu receive an alternate forme (likely) with 680 BST (wtf it has 660 to begin with) and an epic alternate ability (possibly exclusive to the third version like for example Always Ready : this ability makes charge moves take a single turn to execute both the charge and the attack, but this is just theorymon) these two moves are obviously a big no-no.
Now if someone is willing to test this on a real cartridge, it would give the definite confirmation.
I like "underdogs" and I actually like how he looks. He's different from the others' he has a "devilish dog" type of feeling, like a goon or something. His typing is unique, and he might show more threats when his release of the third installment comes out. I hope he gets a clear advantage over his two counter parts that get more of the glory than he gets.
Terrador, half of me agrees with you and half doesn't. On the one hand its seemingly impossible to counter without a Jirachi or something, since even if you have a nice Scizor to switch in, Focus Blast / Ice move is going to hurt like crap and it can just switch out anyway, AND it can beat just about anything which doesn't hit it supereffectively (and quite a lot that does too, especially with Frozen World). Dragons like Sazando obviously can't switch in - in fact with Frozen World only Steels can really properly beat it 1 on 1 from high HP.
The thing is though, there are likely to be a lot of dragons in OU. With decent prediction (e.g. spam Frozen World if you think they might switch) none of these are a danger to Kyuremu. But, they mean each team will be virtually guaranteed to have a bulky steel type capable of taking down dragons such as Kyuremu.
This is kinda a mixed blessing though, since if the Steels are on the others team to block your own Salamence etc they should be significantly weakened to the point where Kyuremu can obliterate them.
Another problem is that Kyuremu has no way of boosting its lacklustre speed, e.g. it should get kills pretty easily but a lot of the time it will next have to switch out (assuming it's lost a bit of HP, otherwise it could just stay in, survive a SE attack, and KO). One, this is likely to be a massive problem since if you mispredict you could end up being taken out by a SD Doryuuzu or something which you thought would go for the KO. Two, Kyu's not suited to switching around due to its SR problem, ALTHOUGH, since so little gets SR it won't be anywhere near as common as in the 4th gen.
Conclusion (again): Hard to tell, but my personal thought is that it is marginally overpowered for OU. Some good counters for it might arise if it stays down there, but the thing is with Frozen World only a handful of things can switch in, while these two or three pokemon are also required to handle some of the other huge threats of the metagame. Unfortunately, I can very easily see it going Uber and never being used except for novelty.
The thing is though, there are likely to be a lot of dragons in OU. With decent prediction (e.g. spam Frozen World if you think they might switch) none of these are a danger to Kyuremu. But, they mean each team will be virtually guaranteed to have a bulky steel type capable of taking down dragons such as Kyuremu.
This is kinda a mixed blessing though, since if the Steels are on the others team to block your own Salamence etc they should be significantly weakened to the point where Kyuremu can obliterate them.
Another problem is that Kyuremu has no way of boosting its lacklustre speed, e.g. it should get kills pretty easily but a lot of the time it will next have to switch out (assuming it's lost a bit of HP, otherwise it could just stay in, survive a SE attack, and KO). One, this is likely to be a massive problem since if you mispredict you could end up being taken out by a SD Doryuuzu or something which you thought would go for the KO. Two, Kyu's not suited to switching around due to its SR problem, ALTHOUGH, since so little gets SR it won't be anywhere near as common as in the 4th gen.
Conclusion (again): Hard to tell, but my personal thought is that it is marginally overpowered for OU. Some good counters for it might arise if it stays down there, but the thing is with Frozen World only a handful of things can switch in, while these two or three pokemon are also required to handle some of the other huge threats of the metagame. Unfortunately, I can very easily see it going Uber and never being used except for novelty.
I'm liking this suggestion. Would it perhaps work to finish off the set with Focus Blast, which will appreciate the accuracy boost a lot, as well as hitting the Steels that wall the STAB combination?
I only worry that the set-up turn would be wasted, due to being hit too hard on those not-exactly-magnificent defences by something quicker switching in.
On the other hand, Dragons would be very brave to switch into this guy directly, and that leaves Fighting, Steel and Rock to hit him with STAB. Fighting has to weather through either of those STABS, while Rock and Steel will probably have to use Bullet Punch or be faster AND OHKO. Once he's locked into Outrage, any remaining enemy Steel will have a field day though.
Metagross looking like a pretty great counter at this point, especially being neutral to Focus Blast.