Lower Tiers LC Viability Rankings 2.0

[Shrug]

Given that Celestavian is the current ranking czar, this will come off as shrug pulling some shenanigans, Preaching to the Atheists Convention etc. But i hold firmly Timburr is not an S- mon in the current Lc metagame. Given sometimes I come off as too theoretical and willfully ignorant of definitions, im going to address one here to have a jump on the inevitable course of discussion:

Reserved for the very best Pokemon in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

My contention here is: the "flaws" timburr has, while minimal, have a high enough opportunity cost in the current metagame to make it an A+ pick rather than an S- one. This contention is informed by observation: there has been a paucity of Timburr teams used in lc open (Sken u can catch a dude by surprise next round) which seems partially a function of the high number of standard teams passed to tour dudes, but also of an increasing move away from Timburr by experienced LC players.

More and more often, players are favoring threats with comparable devastation power (see: shellder) that allow for lighter, more supple teams with minimal support, often from memento found on other supremely useful mons such as Diglett or Cottonee. Timburr, by contrast, is commonly associated with more dedicated support mons such as Stunky, mons that while not entirely deadweight on their own are more commonly defined by uses vis a vis Timburr than their own merits.

This additional support means sweeper-Timburr is essentially a playstyle, shown in the LC Teamstyle thread (dead rip). While I understand Timburr is deadly, the pseudo-playstylish nature implies the efficacy of said playstyle is more comparable to that of Mienfoo or Pawniard - the given best mons in the metagame - than the general utility of Porygon. I think we can agree this is not the case.

The counterargument to the playstyle claim revolves mainly around Timburr's general utility, much greater than that of Zig or other playstyle-type mons. Undoubtedly true. However, I feel the ranking of timburr at A+ already has this utility baked in. Sweepers in the low A / High B ranks are about as deadly as Timburr - Shellder, Ziggy, etc. A+ would have Timburr a full two ranks above Shellder; though I know Timburr is a better mon in general, it must be considered an inferior pawn check to Mienfoo, so theres that opportunity cost offset partially, but not entirely, by the addition of Mach Punch.

Overall, Hawkie i love you but Timb needs to slip down a bit

 

[tcr]

Can we bump up Hippopotas? Not really sure why it's only B+, it's one of the best glues you can have on a bulky offense / more stall oriented team. It singlehandedly checks Fletchling / Pawniard / Mienfoo / Timburr in one slot, while also checking things like Scarf Magnemite. That's a good 5 Pokemon that are all really relevant in today's metagame. Fletchling fails to OHKO with +2 Swords Dance and also only 3-4hkoes at +0, meanwhile Hippo can either Whirlwind it out and stack up Stealth Rock damage or hit it with Rock Slide, which is has a chance to OHKO with rocks up, and deals a minimum of 60% to Standard Calc Fletchling. Pawniard can at best 4hko with Knock Off / Iron Head, even with Knock Off, and fears an Earthquake (which does around 66% minimum, meaning that Pawniard is now useless af in checking other teammates, such as Fletchling. It's a solid chance to OHKO with a couple layers of Spikes and SR, or even just a bit of chip damage. Mienfoo isn't really "checked" so much that it can be whirlwinded out easily if the set is SD foo, and is a solid switchin for the standard pivot set (setting up free SR in the process). Timburr is also Whirlwinded out to possibly take Spikes or SR chip damage, while Hippo takes a pittance from it. Magnemite cannot 3hko with the right spread IIRC (or it can't 2hko, icr). No, not all of these are possible in one slot, but you can focus on 1-2 things (usually I focus on it being a fletch / pawn counter), that's the benefit of it being a glue.

Would like to get other people's opinions on it, I think Melon Tahu QuoteCS all expressed interest in this before?

 

[Merritt]

Ok
The lower tiers are a disgrace imo

Agreement

Wingull from D -> C
This thing is a monster oml. Since many of you dont know what this does heres the set I used on my team requested by Merritt (so thanks for showing this monsters abilities) in my team archive here which probably most of you have seen:

pierce the heaven (Wingull) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rain Dish
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SpA / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 19 HP
- Scald
- Hurricane
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Wingull has the very spammable move in Knock Off, which separates it from Mantyke, and allows it to beat down its own counters, such as Chinchou, especially BJ or scarf variants, quite easily (presumingly on the switch-in). Also equipped with another great move in U-turn, it allows Wingull to circumvent any potential bad matches barring things such as Elekid or the ubiquitous Diglett, however it cannot be trapped by Diglett. Furthermore, Wingull has a powerful, however somewhat unreliable STAB in Hurricane. Here is a calc against both Chinchou (BJ variant) and Ferroseed (before and after Knock Off)

In conclusion, telling any potential lc player that Wingull is as good as Piplup, Azurill, Mankey, and Litleo is just ludicrous. Please raise. Thank you

I kind of agree with this, but I have to say that instead of C start it at C- until other players start using it and have a chance to weigh in. I also have Wingull on a rain team, and let me say that it's just absurd. A reliable, powerful hurricane is incredibly good, and scald is damn powerful in the rain. Rain Dish even means that LO recoil isn't a factor.

Wingull is also a fast Pokemon. 19 speed means that it can outspeed pretty much every threat to it and, worst case scenario, u-turn out. Wingull also hits surprisingly hard due to LO as well, harder than Sashbra with Hurricane and about as hard with Scald. Also, like slurmz mentioned, Knock Off is very useful for support and switch-ins, despite it's low power from Wingull's pitiful attack. It also means that Wingull and Mantyke form a good rain core, despite a shared typing, as Wingull weakens the walls that Mantyke would have trouble with.

Wingull isn't amazing but it's also probably the best special attacking bird in LC.

On the subject of the D ranks, Celestavian can we please remove Azurill? I've argued for it multiple times, and nobody's really argued against it, although Rowan mentioned once that it had knock off. Honestly there's almost no reason to run it over Bunnelby, even on Trick Room where Bunnelby can still be IVed to be slow enough (hitting 9 speed is good enough to be honest), and it hits harder, has access to priority, and has much better coverage. Knock Off is great and all, but really, Bunnelby is just so much better it's not funny.

 

[Krubby]

I'm nominating Tyrunt to B-. This thing makes an excellent switch in to Fletchling (like almost anything that resists flying) but what makes it stand out is how well it can take advantage of this. Add that it's great typing lets it resist electric and be neutral to water and it has even more DD opportunities. The main draw of it as a dragon dancer over Corphish who is a full rank higher is the raw coverage Tyrunt has with it's boosted strong jaw attacks and large movepool. Most things that would wall a rock type such as Ferroseed, Magnemite, and Hippopotas can be destroyed with fire fang and ice fang. And then you can run a strong jaw crunch for things like Slowpoke or iron head for Spritzee. Of course, you can't run everything and it's special defense is pretty shit, but having a dragon dancer with much better bulk and typing than Corphish and the ability to change its moveset to what it needs against its checks is definitely really helpful and I think 2 ranks below Corphish is a good estimate of its ability. I'm not mentioning it's Stealth Rock set because lmao use Archen or Drilbur.

And yeah, unrank Azurill. It hits really hard but not having a fairy stab means that it's pretty much totally outclassed by Bunnelby in any setting including TR

 

[Svalkenaeres]

Ok
The lower tiers are a disgrace imo

I have also challenged Mambo to a bo9 with our team archive teams and will be playing on the pokemonshowdown.com server

I'll start with the one im most passionate about, and will possibly make more posts later

Wingull from D -> C
This thing is a monster oml. Since many of you dont know what this does heres the set I used on my team requested by Merritt (so thanks for showing this monsters abilities) in my team archive here which probably most of you have seen:

pierce the heaven (Wingull) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rain Dish
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SpA / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 19 HP
- Scald
- Hurricane
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Wingull has the very spammable move in Knock Off, which separates it from Mantyke, and allows it to beat down its own counters, such as Chinchou, especially BJ or scarf variants, quite easily (presumingly on the switch-in). Also equipped with another great move in U-turn, it allows Wingull to circumvent any potential bad matches barring things such as Elekid or the ubiquitous Diglett, however it cannot be trapped by Diglett. Furthermore, Wingull has a powerful, however somewhat unreliable STAB in Hurricane. Here is a calc against both Chinchou (BJ variant) and Ferroseed (before and after Knock Off)

calculations

Vs chou
236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Hurricane vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Vs Ferroseed

(With eviolite)
236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Hurricane vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

0- Atk Life Orb Wingull Knock Off vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Ferroseed: 4-5 (18.1 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO

(Without)
236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Hurricane vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Ferroseed: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In conclusion, telling any potential lc player that Wingull is as good as Piplup, Azurill, Mankey, and Litleo is just ludicrous. Please raise. Thank you

I disagree with this.
I played Wingull for a long time during the LC research project and I peaked Silver Rank with him, who implies that I have played a lot with it. (I'm really sad to see how the thread died, that was a really cool project.) Despite the fact that Wingull was a cool mon to play, he has just too much faillings who cripples him.

First, this is a weak mon. Wingull is (badly) forced to run Life Orb. Basically, 55 Spatk is not bad, but his really bad bulk and his typing prevent him to take more than two hits, so it means that if Wingull does not kill, he is killed. Even with Life Orb, he is not that powerful.

Second, his bulk. Maybe you will say that a sweeper does not nee bulk ? I'm not sure.
Wingull has huge difficulties to take a priority and can't come on anything most of the time.

156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Wingull: 15-18 (78.9 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Foongus Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Wingull: 12-15 (63.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Wingull: 6-8 (31.5 - 42.1%) -- 94.7% chance to 3HKO
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Wingull: 15-18 (78.9 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Wingull: 13-16 (68.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
76 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Wingull: 10-12 (52.6 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As you can see, a weak neutral move almost OHKOes him, with SR this is often a guarantee OHKO.
And even a weak resisted move is a 2hko with SR (I don't count LO recoil.)
So, he is always forced to come after a kill/ a u-turn or this kind of things.

And finally : Hurricane's accuracy.
It seems like a detail but I'm convinced that every person who really played with Wingull will understand me.
Hurricane is like the reason to play Wingull, because flying STAB, and because this is his only powerful STAB : Scald is weak and does not OHKO anything hit neutral and fails to 2HKO a lot of walls.

236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Scald vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 9-12 (33.3 - 44.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Scald vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Hurricane is really the move who will break a wall midlifed, OHKO a bulky sweeper and whatever you want. And this move is 70 accuracy.
This weak when you see this mon just CANT miss without being OHKOed. How many battles did I lose because a Hurricane's miss happened ?
70 acc for a main STAB, imo, is ridiculous when you see how this mon is frail. This last point prevents Wingull to be a reliable wincon, and forces him to play in a role of "opener" for another sweeper



Wingull is really a decent mon, for me, he is really a good D rank and he totally deserves it. But really, he has just too much faillings for C. I just tried to show the main lacks of Wingull, but SR weakness, quite weak coverage without HP Ground, there are others.
Eventually C-, but that even would be (very) kind tbh. D in my opinion !

 

[Serperior for Uber]

Stunky for B+

So after using Stunky for awhile, I feel it is a very good support pokemon and is deserving of a higher rank for the following reasons
i) It's trapping ability: Stunky is able to trap and kill Gastly and Abra; two both extremely threatening mons which boast a fast speed tier. While this is a known fact, what really makes this stand out is that unlike other counters like Munchlax, trapping removes it from the game completely instead of having to worry about it merely switching out and wreaking havoc. Furthermore, its trapping is not just limited to those two, it can also trap and kill Drifloon, heavily damage Pumpkaboo (Pumpkin loses to fire blast so it is forced to switch) and other frail psychic types like goth. Another bonus is that stunky is not a liability after a trap like Goth for example, nor is it super frail like Diglett.

ii) Its ability to remove hazards. Hazards are the name of the game and removing them is of utmost importance. However, spinning is easier said than done because of the prominence of great spinblockers like Pumpkaboo and Drifloon. And common defoggers like Archen can be put under pressure because of their weakeness to rocks. Stunky shines as a reliable hazard remover that isn't weak to rocks nor can be blocked as easily (taunt doe)

iii) Its versatility. Stunky has so many moveset options, something that is never bad for a utility mon. It can run a fast taunt set, run memento, sludge bomb, fire blast, has cool priority in sucker punch, pursuit traps, and more. Fire Blast in particular is nice because it makes Pawniard think twice about trying to cheese a defog boost
To conclude, I belive that Stunky deserves a rise to B+ because of the following factors. While it is true that Stunky offers free switches to prevalent pokemon like Timburr,and it is also ground weak, I still think that B+ is a fair rank for it considering its many advantages.

 

[Fiend]

Stunky is a free switch to all hazard setters so defogging often doesn't help out your team; you can predict around this with pursuit and sludge bomb but this will always leave you with hazards up and relying on a 30% chance to do anything. The only Pokemon that stinky truly excels against are Gastly and Abra, with Gothita being able to removed after it traps something too. It can handle Spritzee and Snubs in a way, but switching into either weakens its ability to beat Gastly. Stunky also finds itself being rather predictable as if it's on a team, usually stunky is forced to switch into Abra giving them the ability to double out.

It's a good Pokemon, but really it doesn't find itself overly useful on anything but offense, which can often afford to run a better and more flexible Pokemon, or some balance teams where it is used to make Scarf Foo or Timburr or something that doesn't like Gastly a chance at sweeping. Overall it's not worth raising as its niche isn't large enough to warrent it.

(Smogon on phone blows BTW)

 

[rhydonphilip]

Stunky for B+

So after using Stunky for awhile, I feel it is a very good support pokemon and is deserving of a higher rank for the following reasons
i) It's trapping ability: Stunky is able to trap and kill Gastly and Abra; two both extremely threatening mons which boast a fast speed tier. While this is a known fact, what really makes this stand out is that unlike other counters like Munchlax, trapping removes it from the game completely instead of having to worry about it merely switching out and wreaking havoc. Furthermore, its trapping is not just limited to those two, it can also trap and kill Drifloon, heavily damage Pumpkaboo (Pumpkin loses to fire blast so it is forced to switch) and other frail psychic types like goth. Another bonus is that stunky is not a liability after a trap like Goth for example, nor is it super frail like Diglett.

ii) Its ability to remove hazards. Hazards are the name of the game and removing them is of utmost importance. However, spinning is easier said than done because of the prominence of great spinblockers like Pumpkaboo and Drifloon. And common defoggers like Archen can be put under pressure because of their weakeness to rocks. Stunky shines as a reliable hazard remover that isn't weak to rocks nor can be blocked as easily (taunt doe)

iii) Its versatility. Stunky has so many moveset options, something that is never bad for a utility mon. It can run a fast taunt set, run memento, sludge bomb, fire blast, has cool priority in sucker punch, pursuit traps, and more. Fire Blast in particular is nice because it makes Pawniard think twice about trying to cheese a defog boost
To conclude, I belive that Stunky deserves a rise to B+ because of the following factors. While it is true that Stunky offers free switches to prevalent pokemon like Timburr,and it is also ground weak, I still think that B+ is a fair rank for it considering its many advantages.

Ignore how the niches you named still aren't ''big'', I can name you the fact it's coverage is limited to a ''versatile'' 2 move slot (that could still be effective don't get me wrong on that) but it has no physical poison stab so it's forced to run a mixed set with sludge to even work with sutch stab.
While it does have acces to all those moves it rarely make any use of most of them, has very poor limitations on it's movepool, Pursuit/Sucker are a Must on all set's to not be outclassed in it's niche, Defog as Fiend said isn't too big when you lose to the majority of SR setters. Memento is notable yes and one of the more used moves especialy right now cause it can make good use of it.

I like how you named preciesly munchlax and not lickingtung/porygon knowing munchlax actualy run's pursuit on it's best/most common set because of abra/gastly lol. Yes i know it run's Firepunch/curse aswell but Pursuit has:| Pursuit 65.068% <- most common move exept body slam.

In the current meta it isn't even that usefull especialy finding it self rater weak against generaly ballenced plays, trapping and even Bulky offence like you named it ,it can be set up on one way or another. Most notably Timburr, any smasher ever with this: again lacking Strong STAB damage outside of set up-bait-Sucker Punch and switch boosted or generaly weak Pursuit. I can name many other's aswell if you want exept anything that receaves neutral damage from any of the above listed moves. And in case of Spritzee at +1 from calmmind spritzee can actualy do allot more then you think +1 12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 12 HP / 188 SpD Eviolite Stunky: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 59.4% chance to 2HKO while stunky only does:
108 SpA Stunky Sludge Bomb vs. +1 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 8-12 (29.6 - 44.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
That isn't a nice way to ''Handle it'' but it is some way. Same for snubble knowing snubble actualy does
196+ Atk Snubbull Earthquake vs. 12 HP / 60 Def Eviolite Stunky: 16-20 (69.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)
Juice fails to even EQ tho.

 

[eren]

Svalkenaeres Im not going to elaborate much however, just focusing on its subpar bulk and its "lackluster" power is just blatantly foolish. If you are going to tell me 19 speed, Knock Off, U-turn, and a powerful Hurricane, doing 50% to a ferroseed and 40% to chou is bad, you are straight up lying and its quite obvious you havent used it if you tell me such. With a solid VoltTurn core, Wingull can come in, and not only contribute to the VoltTurning, however it also spams Knock Off, as previously stated, which is a powerful move. Here's the definition for C(-):

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.

I have bolded everything that applies to wingull in this sentiment. It requires signifacnt support, such as a VoltTurn core or free switches in, comparable to Abra. Yes, Wingull is forced to run Life Orb, unlike Abra, but Life Orb Scald does similar damage to Sash Psychic, which is laudible. And before one bombardes me with interrogations such as "Whats its niche? What makes it better, or a similar power level as say Mantyke?" Its simply, its initial speed, Knock Off, and U-turn. It cannot be expressed enough how good these moves, and how helpful they are, especially when wingull is paired in tangent with Fletchling, who has similar checks, or with other water types, such as Mantyke itself, who has similar checks as well.

Sorry if I sounded rude, been pretty upset today

E: forgot to mention this, but how is Water/Dark/Bug/Flying bad coverage? You hit almost everything neutrally, and even if you dont, you can simply U-turn out

 

[Merritt]

D-Rank

Azurill

Hawkstar pls.

I've also been thinking about it, and sorry Slurmz, but Wingull should stay at D. It's a very cool mon, and I love using it to death, but in all honesty it's not quite as good as the C- rank mons (well maybe one or two of them, but the majority are significantly more consistent). It's not even the best mon in D rank at the moment. It kind of spreads its wings over the border between D and C- imo, but even though a wing is in C- the other wing and its stubby little body are in D. It's a good mon and I'll always use it on rain teams (probably) but in general there are other things that, while they can't do the same thing, are just as effective in many ways.

e: ily slurmz :c

 

[Josh]

I could easily see Wailmer in C- rather than D. I guess I might as well give some arguments towards that as well so this isn't a 1 liner. I'm just looking at the scarf set mainly, nothing else is noteworthy imo.

• Comparing it to other C- mons, I'd actually argue it is better than say Goldeen or Togepi
• Compared to other water types in D, it is the best by far. I'd use Wailmer far sooner than Totodile or Poliwag, for example.
• It can actually be hard to switch into a max HP scarfed water spout. It easily 2HKOes bulky Mienfoo, for example. It even has a high chance to 2HKO Porygon. Basically, if you don't resist it it pretty much 2HKOes. However, it can run HP Grass to cover water type switchins, and even 2HKO stuff like Staryu with it as well as Ice Beam for grass type switch ins
• Its not even that weak to priority, and hydro pump works after you've been weakened

Don't get me wrong. I know Wailmer is shit, relies too heavily on scarf, relies too heavily on prediction, etc. I'm just saying it does fit as a scarfer on some teams and is a better thread than D. Low C fits it well imo.

 

[Merritt]

I could easily see Wailmer in C- rather than D. I guess I might as well give some arguments towards that as well so this isn't a 1 liner. I'm just looking at the scarf set mainly, nothing else is noteworthy imo.

• Comparing it to other C- mons, I'd actually argue it is better than say Goldeen or Togepi
• Compared to other water types in D, it is the best by far. I'd use Wailmer far sooner than Totodile or Poliwag, for example.
• It can actually be hard to switch into a max HP scarfed water spout. It easily 2HKOes bulky Mienfoo, for example. It even has a high chance to 2HKO Porygon. Basically, if you don't resist it it pretty much 2HKOes. However, it can run HP Grass to cover water type switchins, and even 2HKO stuff like Staryu with it as well as Ice Beam for grass type switch ins
• Its not even that weak to priority, and hydro pump works after you've been weakened

Don't get me wrong. I know Wailmer is shit, relies too heavily on scarf, relies too heavily on prediction, etc. I'm just saying it does fit as a scarfer on some teams and is a better thread than D. Low C fits it well imo.

I highly disagree. While Wailmer's scarf water spouts are strong, that's its niche. And of course that leaves it insanely predictable. Also I'm going to go through your points to explain why they're problematic.

"Comparing it to other C- mons, I'd actually argue it is better than say Goldeen or Togepi"

Goldeen is weird, yes, but it's also a good counter to electric types due to lightningrod. It also has knock off, which provides useful team support. Togepi is also kind of powerful after a nasty plot boost and fuck baton pass teams which are infinitely more threatening than even some B rank mons.

"Compared to other water types in D, it is the best by far. I'd use Wailmer far sooner than Totodile or Poliwag, for example."

Again, different niches, and you're rather underselling them. Poliwag has a very fast hypnosis and belly drum, meaning that it can sleep something slower than it and set up a belly drum to sweep. It's not a good mon, but it can be somewhat threatening. Even other sets like hypnosis and attacks can be dangerous sometimes. Totodile, on the other hand, you're completely underselling. The only reason it's not higher is that Corphish does almost everything it can do better. However, after Totodile gets a DD boost it's ridiculous to fight, and it has a lot of power even before the dance.

"It can actually be hard to switch into a max HP scarfed water spout. It easily 2HKOes bulky Mienfoo, for example. It even has a high chance to 2HKO Porygon. Basically, if you don't resist it it pretty much 2HKOes. However, it can run HP Grass to cover water type switchins, and even 2HKO stuff like Staryu with it as well as Ice Beam for grass type switch ins"

Granted, but a full HP spout is kind of hard to keep. Hazards wear down at it, and it finds itself hard pressed to switch in at all due to how important full HP is for spout. Also, after you choose a move, it's very easy to wall and on moves that aren't water spout it's kind of weak. Staryu isn't exactly a paragon of bulk, I'd be more worried about Chinchou, who can fairly easily take an HP grass and KO back.

"Its not even that weak to priority, and hydro pump works after you've been weakened"

There are very few situations where I wouldn't prefer Scarf Chinchou to be honest if you're not using water spout.

Look Wailmer is a decent choice on some teams. Scarf Frillish and Remoraid are too. But that's why it's D rank and I didn't nominate it for unranking a couple months ago. Much like Wingull though, it's not quite at the same level as most C- rank mons.

 

[Merritt]

The issue with Trapinch is that it must hold Eviolite otherwise it'll just be KOed because it's slower than its targets, and because of that it's actually weaker than LO Diglett. So there's very little reason to use it. It even has a worse movepool, since it has no sucker punch or memento.

196+ Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
196+ Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

 

[rhydonphilip]

The issue with Trapinch is that it must hold Eviolite otherwise it'll just be KOed because it's slower than its targets, and because of that it's actually weaker than LO Diglett. So there's very little reason to use it. It even has a worse movepool, since it has no sucker punch or memento.

196+ Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 9-12 (34.6 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
196+ Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

or even SR, it's bulk is more disapointing then 1 did expect from a somewhat invested evio poke, also only has a viable niche in TR teams but does see positives in that. (also has priority in form of feint what kinda lacks allot of hitting force but it's +2/ignores protect so it's something :/)
all by all even with a TR team i love using that has trappinch in it, i still think is lacks a chunk

 

[Hogg]

Holy cow, I do not buy the arguments for Wingull being D-rank at all. Despite its accuracy Hurricane is outrageously good in this meta thanks to its high BP and fantastic coverage - 19 Speed and STAB Hurricane alone would be enough to put it at C- IMO. Add in a STAB Scald, Knock Off and U-turn and frankly I think C or even C+ isn't unreasonable. Honestly, what even wants to switch into this thing? You're either switching into a Scald, Knock or Hurricane - and not even Chinchou loves coming into any of those. Hurricane still ends up doing a solid 40% to most resists, so it's pretty easy to wear down its counters.

I tested Wingull a lot when working on some teams for Open, and it consistently puts in work every game. Yes, it has flaws, but it is by no means bad except for random niche roles (which is how D rank is defined).

I didn't save any replays when testing with Wingull, but here's a game from Open using it:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-lc-93903 - That's a replay from R6 of Open showing Wingull doing 57% to a Pawniard with Hurricane and sweeping late game. (Yes, it had to dodge a Rock Slide to sweep in the end, but the hole it tore into Pawniard early game meant that Drifloon would have swept if not for crit.)

 

[Merritt]

Holy cow, I do not buy the arguments for Wingull being D-rank at all. Despite its accuracy Hurricane is outrageously good in this meta thanks to its high BP and fantastic coverage - 19 Speed and STAB Hurricane alone would be enough to put it at C- IMO. Add in a STAB Scald, Knock Off and U-turn and frankly I think C or even C+ isn't unreasonable. Honestly, what even wants to switch into this thing? You're either switching into a Scald, Knock or Hurricane - and not even Chinchou loves coming into any of those. Hurricane still ends up doing a solid 40% to most resists, so it's pretty easy to wear down its counters.

I tested Wingull a lot when working on some teams for Open, and it consistently puts in work every game. Yes, it has flaws, but it is by no means bad except for random niche roles (which is how D rank is defined).

I didn't save any replays when testing with Wingull, but here's a game from Open using it:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-lc-93903 - That's a replay from R6 of Open showing Wingull doing 57% to a Pawniard with Hurricane and sweeping late game. (Yes, it had to dodge a Rock Slide to sweep in the end, but the hole it tore into Pawniard early game meant that Drifloon would have swept if not for crit.)

I love wingull, but in most cases it's just not worth it. Hurricane missing is a massive issue for it, since it's so frail that a single miss will either mean a massive hole torn in it or just a straight up KO. Scald isn't strong enough a lot of the time, and honestly you should be using Wingull for Hurricane.

Knock Off and U-turn are not damaging moves. Wingull has 9 attack on the standard set (which is honestly the only one you should use). Wingull can't even threaten to OHKO Abra with a super effective LO knock off. 0- Atk Life Orb Wingull Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 13-18 (68.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You use these moves for chip damage and utility, knock off generally on an expected switch and u-turn to get out of there. Sure they're nice options to have, but you can rarely use them except on a prediction.

Wingull is at best C- rank but I'm still inclined towards D. C rank has stuff like Mantyke for an immediate comparison, and Mantyke is a hella more threatening than Wingull, considering that it actually has bulk, a powerful water type STAB, and Swift Swim. In fact everything in C performs far more consistently than Wingull.

As for the replay, you mentioned yourself that you not only had to dodge a rock slide, you then had to hit 2 hurricanes in a row (a 49% chance). Honestly he would've been better off with even Taillow, who would've been able to avoid all those odds games due to Quick Attack and 100 acc moves. That damage it did to Pawn was only because Pawn was scarf by the way, Wingull isn't that powerful.

236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 84.4% chance to 3HKO
236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Pawniard: 10-13 (47.6 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

Let's let the hype train die down a little.

 

[gali]

I still think RD Wingull is the best set since it allows it to capitalize on switches it forces really well. Perfectly accurate Hurricane and boosted Scald are scary af to switch into. It shouldnt be higher than c- but its better than the other d rank mons.

 

[Hogg]

I'm not trying to hype anything, or claim that Wingull is the new next best thing - I'm just claiming it's worth C rank, on the strength of excellent Speed and the strongest Special flying attack in the tier. Its biggest problem isn't Hurricane's accuracy so much as the fact that it is mostly outclassed by better Flying types like Fletch/Taillow, and it requires some support, but it definitely has a place on the right team. That makes it the very definition of a C rank.

Mantyke is a poor comparison. Wingull doesn't actually need rain support to be effective thanks to that excellent Speed tier, and its Hurricane hits significantly harder than Mantyke's Air Slash. In practice they play totally differently. Taillow is probably the best comparison and yeah, Taillow is obviously better for most teams. But being outclassed by a higher rank 'mon doesn't (and shouldn't) prohibit Wingull from rising to C rank.

 

[boo836]

pray tell, what niche does wingull have? Simply having the least shitty special sweeping set of flying types (barring taillow) isn't really a selling point. It's got next to nothing in the way of stats or movepool, and it's way too weak to take advantage of any of its stabs. Rain Dance is the only thing it's capable of doing, but even then Mantyke almost always does it better. Wingull might not need rain to function, as it may switch out with a weak U-Turn, but it doesn't really change the fact that if you're using Wingull outside of Rain, you're using it wrong.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Nah, Mantyke sucks and should probably move down

I'm not too sure on where Wingull should be at this point, but it's undoubtedly much scarier of an offensive Pokemon than Rain Dance Mantyke. Mantyke's speed tier is unimpressive at best for an offensive Pokemon - every decent offensive Pokemon at its speed tier is either run with webs (crani) or has powerful priority (pawn). Mantyke has to find the opportunity to set up to even remotely pose a threat to offense because everything outspeeds it, which is a pretty big drawback compared to starting off with 19 Speed; Wingull comes in and is immediately a threat to frailer teams, Mantyke does not.
For LO Mantyke, setting up is easier to said than done because its physical bulk isn't very good, and the special mons commonly found on offensive teams include Abra (2HKOs with Psychic), Gastly (subs on the rain dance and KOs with Sludge Bomb after stealth rock and one round of LO recoil), and Electric-types, unless you plan to rely on every offensive team you come up against packing Vulpix or Sunnybeam Ponyta, although even these pack enough power to put Mantyke into revenge-killing range from Fletchling or Abra. It's a little bit scarier if it comes in on a defensive Pokemon within KOing range because its LO Hydro Pump is actually fairly powerful, but why pick Mantyke for this when I could pick just about any other LO user, perhaps one that doesn't need to set up to do anything against faster teams?
And Mantyke most definitely needs LO if it wants to seriously consider sweeping, because
200+ SpA Mantyke Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo in Rain: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
200+ SpA Mantyke Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 14-20 (66.6 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not being able to OHKO one of the specially frailest important evio users in tauntfoo AFTER set-up is really lame, and
200+ SpA Mantyke Hydro Pump vs. 236 HP / 76+ SpD Eviolite Porygon in Rain: 12-15 (46.1 - 57.6%) -- 51.2% chance to 2HKO
it can't even pose a threat to defensive cores anymore, since it just gets stalled out.
Defensive Mantyke is even worse - it's honestly not even worth considering as a viable set. It's a Stealth Rock weak Pokemon that only has the bulk to wall specially when it packs a double weakness to a fairly common special type - and it relies on RestTalk for recovery. It only walls a small handful of Pokemon in exchange for having nearly no offensive presence, and even for most of those, it needs hazard removal support, or else it's way too easy to play around.

I mean yea, there are definitely specific scenarios where Mantyke can do things other mons can't - I'm not saying it should be dropped from the rankings entirely - but the fact is that there will almost always be something that will do better than Mantyke in the average match. Mantyke simply isn't worth including on a legitimate team, because for every niche it tries to fulfill, something else in that slot will probably do better in the vast majority of match-ups. This, I feel, is a trait that would fit something in D-rank (Munna/Mime Jr/Pineco are exceptional in that they're each irreplaceable on a single team build, and horrendous everywhere else). Piplup and Growlithe can do cool things that other Pokemon can't, but for every game where you're like "so glad I had a bulky water without recovery or offensive presence to use both Defog and Stealth Rock!" or "an Intimidate Fire-type with entirely inferior stats to Ponyta saved me there!", there will be many more where something actually good, like Archen/Staryu or Ponyta/Snubbull, would have been the better choice. Similarly, if Mantyke sweeps, chances are that a Shell Smasher or a Corphish or a Carvanha in the same position would have done it earlier in the match, and probably with less reliance on Hydro Miss. Compare this to the C ranks - Meowth is genuinely worth including on some teams because it's got some hella strong priority, can break past Zigzagoon, and packs all sorts of neat tricks to surprise switch-ins to do a lure sort of thing, Geodude is actually almost completely worth using over Onix if priority is more important than Taunt for a team with ways to get around hazard stackers, etc. This even applies to C- ranks; nothing comes close to Togepi's slow Nastypass, an extremely effective strategy when properly executed that can be and has been built around successfully in the past, and Cubone isn't even that hard to fit onto webs or quickpass teams, although it's a little bit predictable.

 

[Camden]

Now I know that I don't post much here because I'm terrible at this game, but I've been hearing a lot of complaints lately saying that the viability rankings should be cleaned up a bit, particularly in C Rank. While there are quite a few changes that could be made, I'll just bring up a few that I like and save the rest for the others.

Larvitar from C > C-

I honestly never saw the appeal in Larvitar until I gave him a fair chance, but tbh I wasn't very impressed with the results. While Larv can get very strong after Guts + DD, actually triggering Guts sucks because not only do you need a free opportunity to do so, but you're still left to be very frail because of the lack of Eviolite. It's overall strong and has a wicked offensive typing, but that typing also holds it back in the sense that it can almost never afford to take a hit. I feel like there are many more reliable set-up sweepers available to use.

Remoraid from C- > C

Remoraid can run a very disgusting Mixed Scarf set. Water Spout at full HP is doing crazy damage, and it even has Fire Blast to partner with it, which is extremely rare for water-types. Along with that, it can fire off Hustle-boosted Bullet Seeds and Rock Blasts, if willing to part with accuracy. The unpredictability combined with overall high (but not astounding) damage output allows it to act as one of the better Water Scarfers. You can even run something like Splash Plate or Expert Belt if using it on a webs team (or you're just that daring) for that extra damage.


I'll write more later when I'm more awake.

 

[rhydonphilip]

I want to request Barnacle to move down.

It's use as a Smasher is practicaly outclassed by titouga who is able to run 2 set's that could both outclass him by having better set up chances and STAB priority, then there also are omanyte and Shellder.
The scarf set is the one i felt most interested about when trying it, it felt realy underwhelming compaired to Scarfed shellder.
The choise banded set i haven't tried out, but the damage output of this poke is even less then Shellder as far as i figured, who because of scarf has mutch better speed compaired to it and acces to priority.I could also list Corphish aswell with the CB set but eh.
I don't know all it's use or how it should be played but as far as i was able to use it it just was underwhelming compaired to shelder/tirtouga respectively. After people explaining it's use of Cross chop is it's main niche however that still doesn't make it good enough over others when it fails to do preciesly what it's made to deal with:
180+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Binacle Cross Chop vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 16-20 (72.7 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180+ Atk Choice Band Tough Claws Binacle Cross Chop vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 18-22 (69.2 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
these are the 2 main POSITIVES, i don't see how it's able to check one of them at max HP with evio >.>
Yea i get the point that other pokes aren't able to do something alike however:
236 Atk Shellder Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 20-30 (76.9 - 115.3%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Shellder Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-15 (45.4 - 68.1%) -- approx. 12.1% chance to 2HKO
Icicle crash doing more to the already umcommon poke, Ferro is a point i give you that but run that poke over Shellder who has better speed,priority and sutch just seems wrong :/
PS: 196+ Atk Choice Band Corphish Superpower vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 18-22 (81.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
196+ Atk Choice Band Corphish Superpower vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 20-24 (76.9 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I did say C- at best even.

 

[Hogg]

pray tell, what niche does wingull have?

How about being one of the few 'mons who can spam a powerful Flying type move without getting checked by common flying resists such as Archen? Or one that Pawniard doesn't really want to switch into and risk taking a Scald?

In my playing with Wingull I used it on flyspam teams, backed up with something like Drifloon or Fletch. It can break down flying resists early in the game, knocking off Eviolite or wearing down with Scald and paving the way for a more reliable sweeper late-game. It's still a fairly reliable revenge killer thanks to its power and excellent Speed tier as well, easily chasing out the ever-present fighting types in the tier.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Anorith for C/C+

• The fastest Stealth Rock setter bar Diglett, who'd rather use Substitute or Memento in that slot anyway
• STAB Rock Blast to beat defensive Archen and defensive Vullaby, something Drilbur can't do
• Rapid Spin and superior offensive presence give it a niche over Onix
• Can lure in bulky Fighting types and remove their Eviolites with Knock Off
• Can also sweep late game with Swords Dance, although its Stealth Rock set is better IMO

I've used this thing on many teams, and it almost never disappoints.

 

[Fiend]

Anorith for C/C+

• The fastest Stealth Rock setter bar Diglett, who'd rather use Substitute or Memento in that slot anyway.
• STAB Rock Blast to beat defensive Archen and defensive Vullaby, something Drilbur can't do
• Rapid Spin and superior offensive presence give it a niche over Onix
• Can lure in bulky Fighting types and remove their Eviolites with Knock Off
• Can also sweep late game with Swords Dance, although its Stealth Rock set is better IMO

I've used this thing on many teams, and it almost never disappoints.

Anorith's speed is certainly a good point to note, as it allows it to both beat potentially beat Archen and outspeed Drilbur and Mienfoo. Unfortunately, despite its speed much of the 17 speed tier has a shot to 1v1 it, while the majority can switch in. The token Fighting-types of LC, especially Mienfoo, all switch into Anorith and pressure your team despite having Knock Off (just run Pawn if you want SR + knocked off Fighting types). Knock Off does give Anorith a rather excellent niche of beating all spinblockers, however being both SR weak and grounded, all hazards are rather impactful on Anorith and create it being worn down rather quickly. Berry Juice somewhat fixes this, but is inferior to Staryu unless you truly cannot afford losing to Pumpkaboo (which struggles to switch in on Ice Beam after Scald burns). Anorith has a rather poor typing as well, as it does not resist Flying types meaning its place as a Rock-type on your team is a hard sell. You mention the SD set, which while very powerful, is only truly successful versus teams which lack priority or quick or scarfed pokemon.

The C rank is defined as:

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.

Anorith fits into the niche requirement, though barely. It lacks decent coverage + typing + bulk which hampers all of what it really strives to do, though in some cases it might do what you need better than anything else due to how your team has been built and supports Anorith. What makes Anorith very much a C- pokemon is the last bolded portion; even other C ranks give it ample competition for a slot. Natu and Sandshrew are anti hazard measures which beat Pumpkaboo while having either better STABs or wallbreaking ability. Kabuto has a much more adequate typing for spinning and has all of the same merits as Anorith (Rock STAB for birds + Knock Off + Rapid Spin + Stealth Rock) while possessing the possibility to actually beat a fair number of 17 speed Pokemon (Archen / Drilbur / Drifloon) and switch into all of the Flying-types it wants to beat. Anorith does posses the ability to check Snivy unlike Kabuto or Sandshrew though, but I don't think this should be too important as if you need a spinner which beats Snivy, you're probably a very weak team in general. Anorith is rather comparable to both Larvitar and somewhat Purrloin in how effective it really is in a game without the entire team being centered around Anorith. Despite both of these currently being in the subranks you want Anorith to move to, Quote wants Larv moved down (I 100% agree with him) while I personally thing Purrloin is very arguably of C rank viability but with a large enough niche that it can stay there. If you're using Anorith and it doesn't disappoint you with some consistency, your expectations must either be low or your opponents somewhat inept.