Resource LC Viability Rankings

[Corporal Levi]

First of all I'll talk about Scraggy. LOL if you think that's S you need to reconsider Fletchling's existence, Spritzee's existence, Mienfoo's existence, and Dazzling Gleam's existence. It got stealth nerfed as fuck this generation and there's a reason it's low. I would barely consider it an A Pokemon.

Bunnelby is one-dimensional and can't take one hit. It doesn't have a super reliable way to remove Misdreavus and as a Scarfer lacks the power to deal with the bulky Fighting-types. Stay B.

Ferroseed is really good but it can't do it's job without some major support and checking capabilities because it's set up bait..... and it can't do "everything" at once; it even needs support supporting. Stay B.

Prem asked me to make a post about this thread which I've been putting off since bans and stuff and also there's so much shit.
A -> S

Chinchou's an S Pokemon even if it doesn't resemble the power of Misdreavus or Pawniard. It fits on literally every team. It checks like every Pokemon, can spread paralysis or heal bell. If your team is missing something, you should probably add Chinchou to it.

A -> B

Croagunk is really cool and useful at times but it's not even close to A rank. It is weak and frail in comparison to the attacks it will be required to take. If it was faster, stronger, or bulkier it could easily abuse it's awesome typing, but currently all it has is the typing, ability and movepool.

Cottonee is obviously a niche Pokemon. It's very useful but it can't be that useful. Pure support doesn't have enough moveslots for Substitute, Tailwind, Encore, Leech Seed, Memento, Taunt and Knock Off while the attacking variant has room for one less. Use it to set up Zigzagoon etc but it's otherwise not super threatening.

Ponyta is weak to Stealth Rock and can't even think about getting passed Chinchou. It's not bulky enough to take a bunch of attacks after Stealth Rock even if it makes a decent switch into Mienfoo the first time, the second and third will be harder to do without Eviolite.

Porygon is still strong, but the omnipresent Fighting-types literally destroy this former powerhouse. It still has uses for checking Fletchling and etc but otherwise it's not good enough to warrant giving Mienfoo / Timburr / Scraggy a switch-in.

Vullaby I have literally no fucking idea how this got here. It's a defogger that's slower than the most common Stealth Rockers and loses to them handily. It still has its uses and can function effectively on some teams but B rank is even pushing it.

B -> A
Trubbish has stormed the LC metagame with Meditite's removal. It can switch into Mienfoo and lol at basically every move. Pawniard even has trouble with it. It can be set up bait for Missy, that's true, but it can also Spike and switch out. It's really useful and I'm sure we're going to see it even more, possibly even with Dark Pulse.

B -> C

Staryu kinda sucks now :(. It can't beat Misdreavus even if it switches into Hydro Pump. It is simply outclassed by Taunt and Defog. It doesn't have Chinchou's electric-typing and immunity which is what carries that so far, and it isn't bulky enough to take advantage of recover.

C -> B

Zigzagoon is a real threat this metagame. Berry Juice and Knock Off buff made Eviolite slightly less plausible to maintain and abuse, meaning almost everything is OHKOed by ExtremeSpeed. It still needs some Memento and Pursuit support though.

Onix is simply B because it can Taunt fucker Dwebbles and set up its own SR. Meditite no longer exists to punish Onix either.

I could get even nitpickier with Geodude -> C but I'm kind of tired already.

I agree with most of these, but a few that I'm less inclined to support are Cottonee's, Ponyta's, and Porygon's. Also not too sure about Chinchou/Croagunk at this point

Corkscrew pretty much covers my thoughts for Cottonee and Porygon. Although Cottonee can't do everything at once, it can still do what it chooses to do very well thanks to a combination of its typing and movepool, while being able to check what is currently the most popular Pokemon so well grants Porygon a solid niche.

Ponyta does not completely lose to Chinchou; iirc Corkscrew has a Sunnybeam set on his Ponyta analysis, which I have seen others use and myself have used with good results; with such a set, Ponyta ends up beating Chinchou more often than not. Even with Stealth Rock in play, Ponyta is able to switch into Pawniard in particular and mash Morning Sun until the 30% burn chance kicks in. 120 base power fire-type moves are also nice when backed by something that hits 19 speed, so it's not like Ponyta's a dead weight offensively.

 

[Pancham]

I really do not think Chinchou should be S. It is exactly like Rotom-w is in OU, and Rotom-W will never be S either. Sure, Chinchou is a good defensive mon and a good offensive mon, but it cannot do both simultaneously. If it runs max Def, it dies to Spe hits, if it runs max SpD, it dies to physical hits. If it runs defensive EVs, it is weak as hell. Wobbyble's explanation of Chinchou a few pages back still stands. And, honestly, if Chinchou was no S rank material when Krow was in the tier, I really don't think Chinchou will ever be S rank material......

I will post later when I have tested more stuff this meta, but honestly, Cortonee is definitely A rank. I meanies, it can't do everything it often used to do at once, like Chinchou. However, it can do what it needs to do I order to support its team appropriately. It has a fantastic typing in this meta, it checks many sweepers, and it makes many more sweepers scared to set up, in fear of Cottonee switching in and Encoring. Cottonee is still one of the best Pokemon in the tier in my opinion, if I am being honest.

EDIT: One core I look forward to using is Doduo and Flecthling honestly rofl.

 

[Heysup]

I always kind of thought this thread was silly, especially if you ignore the OP definitions of trying to make it less silly. Before I continue, I just want to make sure you read these:

A-Rank Definition

A-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.

B-Rank Definition

B-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

What fits Ponyta better? Is Ponyta OUTSTANDING? Require less support than B Pokemon? No. It can't tank Knock Offs and do its other jobs (or sweep with SunnyBeam) without adequate support, either from Defog or some way to get Sunny Day up (what can Ponyta switch into that it's going to have a turn to set up Sunny Day by itself). It's not sweeping, walling, or supporting any sort of "majority" either. Is it a Great Pokemon? Yes.

What about Cottonee? It supports well but is walled and set up bait for a lot of Pokemon like Steel-types, Zigzagoon and Fletchling. If you run Cottonee without some serious things for it to support and things to cover its glaring weaknesses, you are screwed, it requires more than lets say, Timburr. Great Pokemon? Yes.

Vullaby? Something that gives S Pokemon a free +2 in order to do its primary job is not something that is "outstanding" and walling the majority of the tier. Great Pokemon? Yes.

Porygon whatever. It's A quality but in the wrong metagame to be used as such, at least to the extent I wouldn't place it in A. I don't honestly care where it goes. Outstanding? Maybe, great? definitely.

Trubbish obviously does its job with minimal support. Nothing can stop it. It does it's job then it's done. It walls a majority of the tier without any support. I'm pretty sure Trubbish is a perfect example of what an A Pokemon would be. Ground-types are just Drilburr and Diglett, and Ghosts, basically just Misdreavus (Gastly can't KO it iirc) all of which are great switch-ins but it can have a few counters as long as it can switch in and check a majority (2/3 S at the very least is worth it). Outstanding? Yes op as fuck.

I think maybe some of the people dismissing my suggestions would understand better if they knew I was speaking objectively rather than just my preferences (like most ppl are honestly).

 

[absdaddy]

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Hey, be honest - you too didn't try Koffing post-meditite yet. But i did. And this is not what we'd expect from pokemon sitting at C.
Seriously, are you looking for Pokemon that can stop Mienfoo/Spritzee with ease? I bet you thought about own Spritzee. But that means our "wall" has harder time vs Pawniard, right ?

NOT ANYMORE

• MEDITITE IS GONE SO KOFFING IS THE #1 TANK IN THE METAGAME
  
• sky high 30 defense after factoring eviolite
• not too shabby 21 spdef after evio allows Koffing to tank hits from both sides
• Really good movepool containing great moves like Wisp, Pain Split, Fireblast, Clear Smog, Destiny Bond, Explosion, Sludge Bomb
• ONE legit weakness to uncommon type(psychic)
• Drilbur, which has Mold Breaker Earthquake that can remove Koffing from the field would not enjoy burn, + drilbur while being great mon is not that hard to kill, with one aimed burn this is what happens: 236 Atk Mold Breaker burned Drilbur Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Koffing: 7-9 (33.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, which means that koffing with split wins the race. Its biggest soft counter/check(tits) is gone, i can see koffing being primary wall now.

C -> B/A

 

[Merritt]

What fits Ponyta better? Is Ponyta OUTSTANDING? Require less support than B Pokemon? No. It can't tank Knock Offs and do its other jobs (or sweep with SunnyBeam) without adequate support, either from Defog or some way to get Sunny Day up (what can Ponyta switch into that it's going to have a turn to set up Sunny Day by itself). It's not sweeping, walling, or supporting any sort of "majority" either. Is it a Great Pokemon? Yes.

Trubbish obviously does its job with minimal support. Nothing can stop it. It does it's job then it's done. It walls a majority of the tier without any support. I'm pretty sure Trubbish is a perfect example of what an A Pokemon would be. Ground-types are just Drilburr and Diglett, and Ghosts, basically just Misdreavus (Gastly can't KO it iirc) all of which are great switch-ins but it can have a few counters as long as it can switch in and check a majority (2/3 S at the very least is worth it). Outstanding? Yes op as fuck.

I have a big one for you, so be warned.

Ponyta

I still believe that Ponyta honestly is an A rank Pokemon, or at least has all the elements needed to be one. It tanks knock off far better than anything else that doesn't resist it (aka most of the meta) due to flame body, making every single knock off a risk to everyone except maybe knock off omanyte, as a burned ____(insert physical attacker here) is largely dead weight. If we go by the S-rank definition of being able to preform a wide variety of roles effectively, which is extremely unfortunately not part of any other ranking's definition, Ponyta can actually fit into all three roles of Support, Offensive (sweeper), and Defensive. Ponyta ties for the fastest burn in the meta. That's extremely notable, and when combined with flame body, means that Ponyta is almost always going to burn something, and virtually nothing in the tier appreciates a burn considering how physically oriented the meta is. By spreading burn, it supports the rest of its team, but can also provide support by way of fast sunny day. On a sun team, if Vulpix is knocked out, Ponyta can then provide the sun support the team needs. It may not be quite as effective, but that certainly doesn't mean that it's not a role Ponyta can play. Ponyta's defensive role builds off of this. With reliable recovery, easy to use status, and the ability to set up weather that lets Ponyta both essentially remove one weakness and allow it to defeat its others, Ponyta can perform very reliably as a physical wall. It also has a decent chance to stop opposing sweepers like Carvanha or a

Offensively gets the least focus, and that's a shame. Ponyta has stupidly good offensive stats, and a good movepool to back them up. To put it in perspective, here's how the Pony fares against major S-rank threats.

236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 24-30 (114.2 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's really to be expected, though. A SE move should do that much.

236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Ponyta outspeeds and will only fail to 2HKO if Flare Blitz gets a low roll and Mienfoo's drain punch gets a high roll, and Mienfoo isn't burned. Extremely good odds in the Pony's favor.

236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236 SpA Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Ponyta: 7-10 (33.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

This one is far more ambiguous, due to the speed tie present. If Misdreavus attacks twice, Ponyta will kill itself due to recoil, no matter what else. However, if Misdreavus either wins the first speed tie but loses the second, or loses both speed ties, Ponyta wins.

"But Stealth Rock!" you might cry, and I agree that Ponyta is indeed weak to stealth rock. But, then again, so is Dwebble, Fletchling, Vullaby, and the since banned Yanma, Murkrow, and Sneasel. Does that make them worse? Yes. Does that completely ruin them? No. Hazard removal is an important part of most teams, and ponyta doesn't even necessarily need it, due to Morning Sun. Interestingly, Stealth Rock also only has an effect for the above calculations in the Mienfoo scenario. It means that Ponyta will kill itself taking down Mienfoo, but does not change the outcome except in the scenario that Mienfoo is running High Jump Kick and Reckless.

Does Ponyta sweep most of the meta under sun? Ponyta can either OHKO or 2HKO everything in the tier with the exception of Munchlax under sun. Can Ponyta sweep without sun? Yes, ponyta loses out on multiple OHKOs, and some 2HKOs are prevented, but most things in the meta are still beaten by a 120 base power STAB attack coming off of 85 base attack.

Trubbish

On the Trubbish note, should we hold support mons to a higher standard than being able to do their job once and then be done? That is what would end up deciding what Trubbish would be for me. If so, then Pineco should move up too. It's also guaranteed to set up hazards in the form of stealth rock or spikes or toxic spikes due to Sturdy, and can eat drain punches just like Trubbish, and actually do more back with counter. However, I think we can all agree that Pineco is not good enough for the higher tiers. Ultimately, when a Support mon has done its job is difficult to quantify, unlike Offensive and Defensive mons. If the opponent has a mon with Heal Bell, and your support is able to spread status to the entire opposing team before it faints, has it done its job? If your Torchic baton passer gets up to +2 attack, defense and speed but your opponent brings out a whirlwinder on the turn before you pass, has it done its job? If your opponent has a spinner or a defogger, and Trubbish sets up full hazards before it faints, has Trubbish really done its job? I would say not, but I don't make those decisions.

And yes, Gastly 3HKOs the fully defensive Eviolite Trubbish 99% of the time, while Trubbish is looking at a 6HKO with Gunk Shot on 116/0 non eviolite Gastly.

Tl;dr Ponyta can do a lot of things and 2HKOs all the S-ranks, does a support mon have to be able to do its job once if its work can be removed, or does it have to do it continuously?

 

[Heysup]

I have really no intention of arguing fallacies in this thread because it's not actually that important can say whatever you want and prem can decide if he wants to promote Pineco and Ponyta rofl. I will just point them out to you so that you know you're wrong because I'm nice like that.

1) You are using this absurd logic that when there are two things that share a flaw that they all automatically are effected equally by it. That is false. Scyther is bulky enough to tank hits / OHKO everything with SR on the field, Sneasel and Murkrow aren't tanking hits and when Stealth Rock is up it STILL severely hinders their ability to do their jobs. Vullaby can't do it's job with Stealth Rock as I said previously. If it wasn't hindering them, they would have been banned long before they were. It's fucking crazy that you think Ponyta has any sort of similarity with them. It's not quite strong enough to switch into things and avoid 2HKOes without Stealth Rock removed. Also Mienfoo easily 2HKOes Ponyta because Knock Off (8) + Drain Punch (15) does enough HP that Ponyta has to recover and get lucky (which it needs first turn, I think). It can stay A but that definitely brings some hierarchy within A and some of the A Pokemon would need to be moved to S (like Timburr...even Fletchling).

2) You use absolutely idiotic sets to prove your points, ie 36 Def Mienfoo and EVIOLITE Trubbish (lol). Particularly with Trubbish, I think it's safe to say from that fact that you really don't know what you're talking about and have never used or even seen Trubbish.

I don't care where it goes but you're not making a good case.

 

[Merritt]

236 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 12-15 (50 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(Yes, standard set for bulky foo is 0/196, but that also has no attack investment, which only hurts Foo's ability to deal with Ponyta.)

Ponyta will 2HKO on every imaginable set as long as it doesn't switch in. If both switch in on each other, Ponyta will essentially always get the kill, as Ponyta outspeeds. Yes, Ponyta can't switch into Mienfoo, but Mienfoo certainly can't switch into Ponyta either, and neither can most of the tier. Without Muchlax you likely have to sack something.

In addition, that wasn't a comparison between the banned mons and Ponyta, but saying that although stealth rock is a disadvantage, it isn't a breaking factor. If it was, then that singlehandedly would bar all fire, flying, bug, and ice types from ever making it above B rank unless they were absurdly overpowered. Is a Stealth Rock weakness a point against ponyta? Yes, but it has enough positives that outshine the its flaws. In addition, Ponyta needs very little support when looking at the big picture. A rank Pokemon all require some support, hell even S-rank Pokemon like Pawniard need support in removing fighting types, and sometimes that's as simple as yes, adding a defogger or a rapid spinner to your team. If something is able to eliminate its counters with the right moves, then yes, it does require less support than most Pokemon.

196 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 20 SpD Trubbish: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196 SpA Gastly Shadow Ball vs. -1 116 HP / 20 SpD Trubbish: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

So Trubbish can attempt to stall with RecycleJuice, but will ultimately be forced to a) switch out without berry juice as long as they didn't use recycle on the first shadow ball or b) has its special defense lowered and is OHKOed. Trubbish is still only looking at a 5HKO, and is absurdly unlikely to be able to stall out shadow ball. Either way, Gastly only lets it set up, at most, two layers of spikes, one on the turn it switches in and another on the turn gastly uses shadow ball for the first time.

Expanding beyond gastly, Trubbish isn't even a very good stop to several dark and fighting types. Scraggy can use Trubbish as setup fodder if it tries to stop it when it goes to +1, as Drain Punch fails to 2HKO, or Scraggy can simply play around Berry Juice at +1. Houndour outspeeds and 2HKOs even through Berry Juice, Snubbull's often run Earthquake has a 56.3% chance to OHKO after stealth rock, both all three of Machop, Mankey, and Riolu (although rarely seen) can play around Berry Juice if they choose to run Earthquake, and Carvanha, as seen before it's ban in BW can run Zen Headbutt, which OHKOs Trubbish more often than not. Does this make Trubbish bad? Not at all, but the fact that one of essentially three viable fairies and a few of the dark and fighting types can beat it if it switches in, making it not a counter at all.

It does have the ability to switch in on two of the top three S-rank mons, which is important (although the Berry Juice set has a chance of losing to Jolly Pawniard if knock off is not a high damage roll and iron head is not a low damage roll), but if that's all you really need something for, Koffing and Grimer can do the same thing, only without access to spikes.

Also, don't hate on Eviolite Trubbish, it's a perfectly viable set that can be used to great effect.

 

[T-Bolt]

I guess I'll post my opinion on some of the pokemon being discussed

Trubbish: Trubbish is honestly amazing. It walls a really large number of pokemon, and is a great switch in to Knock off, one of the best and most common moves in this meta. Recycle-juice makes it a bitch to take down, and it sets up spikes exceedingly easily. Definitely A-rank.

Cottonee: I was skeptical about Cottonee at first, but when I tried it out it turned out to be a great utility mon. It's defensive typing allows it to check or counter a bunch of dangerous sweepers, not to mention Priority encore discourages setting up anyway. There's also a really large number of support moves it can run, prio stun spore can act as a safety blanket if the opponent manages to set up, prio memento is a nice way of helping your mons set up.

Cottonee is sort of in the same boat as trubbish, it performs an important role and does it really well. It should stay in A rank.

Ponyta: Ponyta is meh in both roles it plays. It's difficult to wall and beat stuff when your best STAB move has recoil, and it can't really sweep well either. And then there's the stealth rock weakness too. It'll probably fit best in B rank.

Koffing: I haven't really used it, but I have faced some and they're pretty bulky. It's a good tank, but it faces competition from Trubbish on many teams. I guess B rank would fit.

 

[tcr]

Quie honestly Merritt, have you tried Ponyta in this meta? Or are you simply basing your ideas off of its stats? There are far better, more reliable checks to Fighting-types. A Stealth Rock weakness is not beneficial for something that should theoretically check physical attackers. Most Ponyta should be Eviolite+Flare Blitz+Morning Sun, and quite honestly Sunny Day+Solarbeam is NOT reliable in beating its checks. On paper, yes, however it does not do as the label says. Ponyta struggles to find a spot on teams due to other bulkier pokemon. Bulkier pokemon such as Chinchou, Spritzee, or Trubbish. Its not quite strong, with a weak movepool, yet its also not quite bulky enough to carve its own niche. It can't be a pivot, because of Stealth Rock. It can't be a wall, because its typing is horrid, and its not as defensive as it should be. It can't sweep because Fire-Type is not really the best type to spam, and it is outclassed by much more offensive oriented pokemon. In short its a jack of all trades, master of none. Unlike other pokemon like that however, its a one trick pony, with an easily predicted moveset (flare/wild/morning sun/wow), and a stealth rock weakness it cant get by. Its stealth rock weak ess can be patched, by defogger or spinner, but spinner dril is usually defensive anyway, with a better stab, and defoggers like archen or vullaby are always defensive. This results in redundancy. Why have defensive vullaby and ponyta on the same team? This is quite honestly ponytas biggest drawback. It forces teammates that make ponyta not helpful, and is often a liability on teams. B rank is quite honestly the best place, might be generous however.

Trubbish is honestly one of the best pokemon right now. It can beat Scraggy, check Fletchling, beat mienfoo, beat croagunk (usually), and is the best check to spritzee. Berry juice is annoying, Nd spikes are really good as always. I honestly cannot see it dropping right now. By definition it fits S rank definition, however I might not classify it as such simply because of the pokemon associated with S rank, such as Pawniard, that do a whole deal more. I think A rank is best, but high A rank.

 

[Heysup]

Prem is getting his wish.

Merritt

I don't get it. Instead of coming up with new points you come up with more fallacies. The Stealth Rock point a strawman. Stealth Rock being a breaking factor for Ponyta (as I said) does not mean it's a breaking factor for all Pokemon weak to it. Similarly, just because it's not a breaking point for some Pokemon, doesn't mean it's NOT a breaking Point for ALL Pokemon. Ponyta's impacted by Stealth Rock which makes it less feasible to use as you would understand if you used it more.

Eviolite trubbish is a literal joke if you've ever used Berry Juice, it's a good gimmick if you want to beat Diglett but otherwise it's just inferior. You are saying it's not good because it can't switch into non choice Mankey with Earthquake?

This is why I don't feel the need to attack the arguments in depth, they sort of attack their own credibility. #snark

 

[Wobbyble]

why are people running calcs for 236 atk evs on ponyta zzz its a bad spread. its much more effective to invest in speed, 23 hp, and then def or sdef

 

[chimp]

I agree with Vullaby going to B. I've used it here and there and it is honestly just underwhelming for an A pokemon. Knock Off and Defog are the extent of its support options, and even then its slow and offers little offensive presence that other Knock Offers would provide, like Pawniard and Scraggy. It can't soak up Knock Off because the lack of eviolite means it can be checked by pokemon its meant to wall. Its not a bad pokemon by any means; but B rank is not a necessarily a "bad" rank. Is just outclassed by pokemon who can do what it does better.

Koffing for B rank, I think it has its own niche over Trubbish for having access to WoW. Speaking of Trubbish; it 100% deserves A.

Also, 300th post yay

 

[Brambane]

Why wouldn't you run max Attack on Ponyta?

It is the manliest way to use the horse

236 Atk Life Orb Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock - WHO YOU GONNA CALL?

236 Atk Life Orb Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 17-21 (80.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock - REGENERATE YOUR LIFE, BITCH.

236 Atk Life Orb Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 196 HP / 100 Def Trubbish: 21-27 (87.5 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock - TAKING OUT THE TRASH.

236 Atk Life Orb Ponyta Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock - EXTINCT. AGAIN.

236 Atk Life Orb Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 156 Def Dry Skin Paras: 109-130 (473.9 - 565.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO - I'LL KILL YOU FIVE TIMES.

GO HARD OR GO HOME

 

[tcr]

Current A rank ---> B rank
Magnemite

• Magnemite suffers from being completely hardwalled by Chinchou (even HP Ground sets can lose to specially defensive spreads) and is easily played around by Knock Off.
• Berry Juicers that rely on Berry Juice to be annoying are NOT as effective anymore due to prevalence of Knock Off.
• Magnemite's role as a revenge killer has been severely limited since its peak in TangYanma era
• IMO weak, but thats subjective
• Did i mention its outclassed as a pivot by Chinchou?

Current B rank ---> A rank
Archen

• Archen is a really good check to Fletchling. In fact, Chinchou+Fletchling is on of the best defensive yet offensive cores that I have seen in this metagame
• Excellent offensive defogger. Better than Vullaby imo.
• 18 Atk uninvested
• doesnt need to worry about defeatist tbh, it still wrecks face with strong attacks such as 110 Acro
• Berry Juice really makes it viable, as it beats Defeatist.
• Defenses are not bad for an offensive pivot.
• Wide range of moves from Defog, to U-turn, to Roost

Trubbish

• Already said
• Really functions best as a 6th pokemon
• Excellent glue, similar to Croagunk
• except it learns spikes. and best as Berry Juice
• Checks:
  • Scraggy
  • Fletchling
  • Croagunk
  • Mienfoo
  • Timburr
  • Pawniard
  • Spritzee
  • Cottonee
• P good if you ask me.

Current B rank ---> C rank
Houndour

• Houndour suffers from being I guess an OK Pursuit trapper ?_?
• Quite honestly Pursuit Trapping isn't necessary, as a lot of threats kill Misdreavus anyway
  • Pawniard
  • Scraggy
  • Most Knock Off users, everything except Scraggy can live a Dazzling and cripple it anyway
• Pawniard outclasses it tbh
• Hard to find a spot on a team
• Weak overall
• Pretty much a useless ability. Who uses a fire-type move anymore?
• Stealth Rock weakness, leaving it to be extremely outplayed. Be honest, how predictable is it to know that Houndour is going to come in ?_?
• weak to literally every notabe priority bar Sucker Punch
• Forced ot be mixed

Lileep

• Probably the most controversial piece of this
• Lileep isn't as bulky as other pokemon due to typing
• Easy set up bait for Sub+NP Misdreavus
• Loses to U-turns
• Competes with Spritzee as a defensive wall and Porygon as a special sponge
• NO MORE SAND TO BOOST ITS SPECIALL DEFENSE
• prone to knock off. like literally sucks with no item
• ToxicStalling isn't as viable anymore, too many hings switching in and out, as well as rise of Pawniard
• Loses to all three S rank pokemon, as well as a lot of A rank pokemon, requiring too much support
• Competes with Foongus and Ferroseed as a Grass-type pokemon

Larvesta

• Larvesta suffers from the same problems as Ponyta does, but with worse stats, worse typing, worse stealth rock weakness
• Flame Body isnt as reliable anymore. most pokemon don't care about Flame Body, such as Mienfoo, Scraggy, and Timburr. Croagunk can spam Sludge Bomb+Vaccuum Wave.
  • Mienfoo doesnt care about Burns because it should honestly be using Knock Off anyway, which the goal isnt to do damage its to open others to do damage.
  • Scraggy often runs Shed Skin
• Can beat Pawniard reliably I guess, but there are better, less risky alternatives, such as Scraggy, or Mienfoo.
  
• Trubbish can take Knock Offs better, as well as Croagunk or Mienfoo.

Those are my thoughts! I hope they spark discussion. I might do a C + D rank list later, but rn fuck it.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Current A rank ---> B rank
Magnemite

• Magnemite suffers from being completely hardwalled by Chinchou (even HP Ground sets can lose to specially defensive spreads) and is easily played around by Knock Off.
• Berry Juicers that rely on Berry Juice to be annoying are NOT as effective anymore due to prevalence of Knock Off.
• Magnemite's role as a revenge killer has been severely limited since its peak in TangYanma era
• IMO weak, but thats subjective
• Did i mention its outclassed as a pivot by Chinchou?

Current B rank ---> A rank
Archen

• Archen is a really good check to Fletchling. In fact, Chinchou+Fletchling is on of the best defensive yet offensive cores that I have seen in this metagame
• Excellent offensive defogger. Better than Vullaby imo.
• 18 Atk uninvested
• doesnt need to worry about defeatist tbh, it still wrecks face with strong attacks such as 110 Acro
• Berry Juice really makes it viable, as it beats Defeatist.
• Defenses are not bad for an offensive pivot.
• Wide range of moves from Defog, to U-turn, to Roost

Trubbish

• Already said
• Really functions best as a 6th pokemon
• Excellent glue, similar to Croagunk
• except it learns spikes. and best as Berry Juice
• Checks:
  • Scraggy
  • Fletchling
  • Croagunk
  • Mienfoo
  • Timburr
  • Pawniard
  • Spritzee
  • Cottonee
• P good if you ask me.

Current B rank ---> C rank
Houndour

• Houndour suffers from being I guess an OK Pursuit trapper ?_?
• Quite honestly Pursuit Trapping isn't necessary, as a lot of threats kill Misdreavus anyway
  • Pawniard
  • Scraggy
  • Most Knock Off users, everything except Scraggy can live a Dazzling and cripple it anyway
• Pawniard outclasses it tbh
• Hard to find a spot on a team
• Weak overall
• Pretty much a useless ability. Who uses a fire-type move anymore?
• Stealth Rock weakness, leaving it to be extremely outplayed. Be honest, how predictable is it to know that Houndour is going to come in ?_?
• weak to literally every notabe priority bar Sucker Punch
• Forced ot be mixed

Lileep

• Probably the most controversial piece of this
• Lileep isn't as bulky as other pokemon due to typing
• Easy set up bait for Sub+NP Misdreavus
• Loses to U-turns
• Competes with Spritzee as a defensive wall and Porygon as a special sponge
• NO MORE SAND TO BOOST ITS SPECIALL DEFENSE
• prone to knock off. like literally sucks with no item
• ToxicStalling isn't as viable anymore, too many hings switching in and out, as well as rise of Pawniard
• Loses to all three S rank pokemon, as well as a lot of A rank pokemon, requiring too much support
• Competes with Foongus and Ferroseed as a Grass-type pokemon

Larvesta

• Larvesta suffers from the same problems as Ponyta does, but with worse stats, worse typing, worse stealth rock weakness
• Flame Body isnt as reliable anymore. most pokemon don't care about Flame Body, such as Mienfoo, Scraggy, and Timburr. Croagunk can spam Sludge Bomb+Vaccuum Wave.
  • Mienfoo doesnt care about Burns because it should honestly be using Knock Off anyway, which the goal isnt to do damage its to open others to do damage.
  • Scraggy often runs Shed Skin
• Can beat Pawniard reliably I guess, but there are better, less risky alternatives, such as Scraggy, or Mienfoo.
  
• Trubbish can take Knock Offs better, as well as Croagunk or Mienfoo.

Those are my thoughts! I hope they spark discussion. I might do a C + D rank list later, but rn fuck it.

I really like and agree with most of these (although I haven't used Lileep much recently so I can't say for sure). Adding on to why Magnemite should be moved down, Defog users are much less prevalent than they were before, making hazards much easier to keep on the field, which is detrimental to Magnemite because it's vulnerable to both Stealth Rock and Spikes, limiting the effectiveness of Sturdy. However, I think Houndour should maintain its position as a B rank Pokemon.

- Pursuit is very useful for beating Misdreavus because otherwise, it can switch out, allowing it to wreak havoc later on. This is especially important for Misdreavus because Pawniard and Scraggy can both be OHKOed by the appropriate coverage move, and neither enjoy Will-O-Wisp very much, preventing them from safely switching in again later on.
- Pawniard does not outclass Houndour, because Pawniard cannot attack effectively under most circumstances from the special side in a metagame where most walls seem to focus on the physical side, lacks an immunity to Will-O-Wisp, does not have a STAB Fire Blast, and is slower.
- Houndour finds a niche on offensive teams as a pursuit trapper and/or offensive fire type.
- Houndour is most certainly not weak; neutral natured Houndour with just 36 SpA EVs is able to 2HKO 212 HP/76 SpD Spritzee with Fire Blast 100% of the time after Stealth Rock outside of misses. Sucker Punch off 60 attack becomes less underwhelming when boosted by STAB and Life Orb, carrying a 93.8% chance to OHKO Eviolite Misdreavus after Stealth Rock with 196 Atk EVs and a neutral nature. Pawniard also needs a Life Orb to guarantee the OHKO on Misdreavus with Sucker Punch (Eviolite Pawniard only has a 6.3% chance of OHKOing Eviolite Misdreavus with Sucker Punch) but risks a burn from Will-O-Wisp, although it is able to do so regardless of Stealth Rock if healthy.
- Early Bird is a nice ability because it allows Houndour to check Foongus and other sleep users more easily; although Sludge Bomb will do heavy damage, such is the nature of an offensive check.
- Being mixed allows Houndour to better deal with specialized walls.

Also Koffing for B pls

 

[boo836]

Still don't know why Omanyte is "C" rank here.

Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

This perfectly sums up Omanyte as a Pokemon. While it does lack an ability like Sturdy that would make it easier to play in a more casual environment (read: lower ladder), Omanyte's strength in having Battle Armour makes it much more consistent, and therefore more appealing to more skilled players.

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Anyone can agree that Omanyte does NOT have issues with needing a lot of support. It comes in rather easily on Pokemon like Fletchling and Doduo, absorbing whatever they have to hit it with (save for the very rare though useful Hidden Power Grass), Pokemon that are by all accounts massive threats. Considering that most bulky Pokemon in LC have a lot of physical bulk naturally, Omanyte has an edge over Tirtouga by hitting on the special side. Like, no one wants to have their sweep attempt immediately stopped when something like Timburr hits the field. It also sets itself apart by having abilities that make Omanyte function differently. Swift Swim for instance allows Omanyte to use the opponent's rain against them, while Shell Armour saves Omanyte from possible Critical Hits from priority, which in my experience can be a massive pain in the ass when sweeping with a Shell Smash user.

Furthermore, Omanyte is one of two Pokemon in LC that has access to all damaging hazards, freeing up the space for Pokemon like Shell Smash Dwebble without sacrificing a hazard setter. I'd even go so far as to say that it's a better supporter than Tirtouga by having Spikes and being a point faster than Tirt.

Omanyte doesn't really have any flaws that prevent it from being effective, especially not if Tirtouga is also considered effective.

So yeah, Omanyte to B pls.

 

[Wobbyble]

Why wouldn't you run max Attack on Ponyta?

It is the manliest way to use the horse

236 Atk Life Orb Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock - WHO YOU GONNA CALL?

236 Atk Life Orb Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 17-21 (80.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock - REGENERATE YOUR LIFE, BITCH.

236 Atk Life Orb Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 196 HP / 100 Def Trubbish: 21-27 (87.5 - 112.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock - TAKING OUT THE TRASH.

236 Atk Life Orb Ponyta Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tirtouga: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock - EXTINCT. AGAIN.

236 Atk Life Orb Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 156 Def Dry Skin Paras: 109-130 (473.9 - 565.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO - I'LL KILL YOU FIVE TIMES.

GO HARD OR GO HOME

manly is good and all, but for an eviolite set at least, running max attack is not effective, as you can get many of the same 2hkos with 76 or no investment. you need hp investment to 23 for extra morning sun heal and bulk health wise since you take so much recoil.

life orb on the other hand, GO HAM PLS or puss

 

[Heysup]

agreeing with Archen for A but I thought I would be pushing it with Murkrow's banning. Fletchling is a threat that you can't have enough checks for, Archen being one of them. Using Sash diglett or any Sturdy Juicer basically begs Archen's use since Vullaby is a shitty option. It has a 18 Attack uninvested Earthquake that can nail Pawniard for a 2HKO which alone makes it worth considering for that spot. It's movepool is also huge and can be customized for the team's needs.

 

[Rowan]

WARNING: PLEASE DON'T USE THE EVS THAT ARE AUTOMATICALLY IN THE DAMAGE CALC FOR CALCULATIONS UNLESS THEY'RE ACTUALLY GOOD. DON'T WANNA SEE ANY 236 SpD/ 0 Spe DRILBUR OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

If you want to use Vullaby purely for Defog, then I don't know why you wouldn't run Heat Wave.
0 SpA Vullaby Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 10-14 (47.6 - 66.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
236+ Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO

Predicting the switch isn't exactly hard, but then I guess the opposing team can force it out after Pawn dies, still preventing you from defogging. I don't mind this being moved to B though because it has to run Heat Wave meaning it's moveset must be KnockOff/Heat Wave/Defog/Roost preventing the use of U-Turn or Brave Bird. Massive 4mss and lack of offensive pressure as a defogger is enough for B.

as for Ponyta:
It can switch into and wall Pawniard along with all fighting types bar Timburr and I guess Shed Skin Scraggy. Vs. Pawn and Foo it can switch in and spam morning sun until it burns which it pretty much always will. Yes it loses Eviolite but it still avoids the 2HKO from Pawniard even without Eviolite. As Merritty said, Flame Body deters Knock Off Spam anyway. You can even choose to run Wisp, which guarantees the burn early on Mienfoo. (bearing in mind Mienfoo is almost always sent out early game, so often you'll be switching into it without SR in play).
As I've said, SunnyBeam literally beats ALL water types (SR support is required for Tirt though) and sun Boosted fire blast is actually strong enough to threaten things. If you don't want Solar Beam you can go physical: although it loses the ability to beat Chou, with Wild Charge it makes it extremely hard for anything else to switch into it bar like Tyrunt. This makes it a decent Wallbreaker as well as a Bulky Pivot:
76 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 196 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Lickitung in Sun: 15-18 (53.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
76 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee in Sun: 15-18 (55.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
76 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby in Sun: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
76 Atk Ponyta Flare Blitz vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep in Sun: 12-15 (46.1 - 57.6%) -- 51.2% chance to 2HKO

19 speed is the icing on the cake, outspeeding everything without a boost, meaning it can revenge loads of weakened stuff with a powerful FlareBlitz/FireBlast/Wild Charge.

tl;dr Ponyta is one of the best pivots in the game, as not only can it wall S-Ranked Pawniard along with Fighters/Grasses, it can either function as a Powerful wall-breaker with Sunny Day + Flare Blitz, or it can get past its usual counters with Sunny Day + Solar Beam. In my opinion it needs less Rapid Spin support than other stuff like Tirtouga and Vullaby because of its fast Recovery.

 

[Heysup]

tl;dr Ponyta is one of the best pivots in the game, as not only can it wall S-Ranked Pawniard along with Fighters/Grasses, it can either function as a Powerful wall-breaker with Sunny Day + Flare Blitz, or it can get past its usual counters with Sunny Day + Solar Beam. In my opinion it needs less Rapid Spin support than other stuff like Tirtouga and Vullaby because of its fast Recovery.

no.

236+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)

Scarf 2HKOes. SD sets go into a 50/50. Decent check tho :). Also Mienfoo is the only common Fighting-type it walls (plz don't bring up shit like Tyrogue like I know Merritt wants to) as long as its not one of those pesky Stone Edge variants.

It's gotta be B.

 

[prem]

trubbish->a
omanyte->b
croagunk->b
lileep->c
koffing->b
ziggy->b
staryu->c
onix->b


thats all i did now. still talk about ponyta, magnemite, houndour, archen, larvesta.

PROBABLY dont have to talk about archen i just forgot about it but idk somoene say more stuff.

 

[chimp]

Magnemite (A -> B)
Magnemite is really outclassed by Chinchou and, to a lesser extent, Pawniard, who does everything it can do and better. Its weak to very common types, and the pokemon it wants to counter usually pull something to defeat it. Sturdy + Recycle and Juice is unreliable especially with Knock Off and hazards. The only thing I can see it doing is countering Spritzee, but Pawniard does arguably better. Its Scarf set its good, but not A rank good.

Houndour (B)
Houndour is dangerously powerful and fast destiny bond is great for removing fighting types (or Misdreavus) allowing other pokemon, like Pawniard or Carvanha, to continue its sweep.

Archen (B -> A)
Archen is great. It counters/checks so many thing and is a defensive pokemon thats actually not outclassed by chinchou. Defog and Stealth Rock help it to, and Acrobatics is extremely powerful, especially coming of its high attack stat.

Larvesta (B)
Its really more trouble than its worth. Its good for checking fighting types though, I guess.

 

[Heysup]

Magnemite (A -> B)
Magnemite is really outclassed by Chinchou and, to a lesser extent, Pawniard, who does everything it can do and better. Its weak to very common types, and the pokemon it wants to counter usually pull something to defeat it. Sturdy + Recycle and Juice is unreliable especially with Knock Off and hazards. The only thing I can see it doing is countering Spritzee, but Pawniard does arguably better. Its Scarf set its good, but not A rank good.

If you use Magnemite as Chinchou yes, Chinchou does it better. Otherwise, Magnemite is a much different Pokemon. First of all, it can endlessly switch into Spritzee something which both Chinchou and Pawniard cannot do (btw Pawniard is usually 2HKOed with hazards or non Eviolite). Second, I would go out on a limb and say it's likely the best check in the metagame. It's the only thing that checks Carvanha and Tirtouga through TWO flinches (assuming Tirtouga's Sturdy was broken by something else). It can dent all of its switch ins (does ~40 to Restalk Chinchou) and if they aren't immune to Volt Switch, they get bounced off, meaning Magnemite isn't only a good check but it's an amazing pivot. The only thing holding Magnemite back is the fact that Stealth Rock breaks Sturdy, but that's something that good players know happens and can easily play around it. Did you know you can switch Magnemite into Misdreavus Shadow Ball and restore yourself to full HP with Berry Juice? Well you do know. Should stay A forsure.

 

[Melon]

Archen
(B --> A)
This thing is magnificent. It's got 17 Attack uninvested, and come in on stuff like Fletching which is always useful. It also get's a nice movepool with U-turn, Roost, Stone Edge, Rock Slide, Acrobatics, Defog (Defog is gud), Earthquake, Stealth Rock, and Knock Off. Berry Juice can be used to fight against it's awful ability in Defeatist, and Archen also has usable defenses. Absolutely an A worthy Pokemon.

Magnemite
(A --> A)
Magnemite is a good Pokemon, capable of running a SturdyJuice set and a Scarf set effectively. While the SturdyJuice set can be screwed over by Knock Off or Stealth Rocks (You should have Defog or something anyway if you have a Berry Juice Magnemite) it is still really effective and capable of putting a dent in anything, even Chinchou if you use Hidden Power Ground. Magnemite also gets Volt-Switch, which it can use to gain momentum for the rest of it's team. Magnemite should stay in A.

 

[GlassGlaceon]

%GlassGlaceon: Gunk Can A) Switch into fighting types reliably B) force out said fighting types and either C) Knock off to Support or D) Nasty plot the heck up and it also E) Checks Chinchou and other water types also F) prem for moving it down to B and G)unk is too based to move down but before I finish, it also H) Forces out pawn I) Dark pulses/shadow balls missy switchins, J) Sets up on trubbish, why is it noted as a check when it can't even really do much bar set-up spikes on the support set??? K) Is relatively strong for a support mon and L) synergizes well with walls and clerics and other support mons like Porygon, lickitung, based cotton M) has an awesome STAB move with new Accuracy to abuse as it likes with a good chance to poison walls it might not be able to brek through with sheer power alone N)o way is this frog b O) by the way, it also gets tons of priority to force out things like pawniard and P) It checks/counters (inb4 long list) : Tirtouga, carvanha, mienfoo, pawniard, chinchou, lileep, cotton, scraggy, spritzee, Timburr, amaura, and cranidos and more