And steel nerf 2 stronk.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Corporal Levi
- Start date
- Status
i would assume the only support it really needs is to just check the one thing it cant kill. Other than that it's just sitting there waiting for it's moment like you're saying. More and more people keep making Abra seem like it's going places but i still cant really see it going farther than one/two revenges or sash being the end all be all mon late game. I'll change my stance to one the fence about it.
Aaron's Aron
A concussion update in my info tab
So this is my third time I did this list. The first time I had nice, long paragraphs explaining my opinions. However, Smogon deleted the draft for some reason. I did it a second time, but with shorter explanations because I didn't want to write them all out again. However, it deleted that too. So now you get this. With exams happening now and my irritation, I do not want to write them out again. I probably will eventually though just because I don't like leaving things unfinished... But for now this is what you get.
- Abra - I can see it going to A, but B+ is aright with me too. It hits all sorts of stuff really hard, and since it has a Scarf and Life Orb set you can't be sure what to bring in to check it.
- Diglett - While it doesn't beat everything, it is perfect for taking out that one Pokemon that gives your team trouble.
- Gastly - Most people say it is outclassed by Misdreavus. If you try to make Gastly run a Misdreavus set then it is outclassed. However, it has its own wall breaking and revenge killing set that enables it to stand out.
- Zigzagoon - It can be hard to set up, but if you do it is a monster. Since Extremespeed has +2 priority it can't be revenge killed by Fletchling, Timburr, or any other priority users. The only thing that prevents it from being A rank is its difficulty to set up and its weakness to things that resist Extremespeed and outspeed.
- Bunnelby
- Doduo
- Ferroseed
- Houndour
- Larvesta
- Lickitung
- Munchlax
- Omanyte
- Onix
- Slowpoke
- Vulpix
- Koffing
- Snover
- Snubbull
- Torchic
- Wynaut
- Dweeble - It probably should stay in A-, but I can see it moving to B+ because after it sets up rocks it is a bit useless. It might occasionally so something, but not consistently.
- Riolu - Maybe B-? It's Priority High Jump kick is just really strong, and it can even use priority Copycat to use it's opponent's moves against them sometimes.
- Vullaby - I don't really know to be honest. It hits hard with Brave Bird and has Knock Off, but Stealth Rock hurts it, especially once it's Eviolite is knocked off. B+ from me.
Last edited:
Vullaby's biggest let down is that even though it practically trolls defensive grass pokes (Foongus/Cottonee to an extent if the arent running Dgleam), it struggles to find a room for moves. Most of the time you absolutely need Roost/Defog/Knock Off to survive.
Brave Bird while it beats Fighting mons, You cant handle Pawniard, plus recoil sucks for a defensive mon.
Heat Wave while it hits Pawniard super effectively, You cant really dent much else and you'll have to sac your nature/evs on evening things out.
I like Vullaby but i find myself disappointed with it since it's helping me most of the time except it's taking rocks away and making Foongus' life hard.
Brave Bird while it beats Fighting mons, You cant handle Pawniard, plus recoil sucks for a defensive mon.
Heat Wave while it hits Pawniard super effectively, You cant really dent much else and you'll have to sac your nature/evs on evening things out.
I like Vullaby but i find myself disappointed with it since it's helping me most of the time except it's taking rocks away and making Foongus' life hard.
I'm just going to leave this here C:
Vullaby (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 76 Def / 196 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Defog/HP Fighting/Heat Wave
Obvious change the nature to like Naughty or some shit if you use HP Fight or Heat Wave, as well as changing the investment from Def into SpA. +Spe natures can be used as well.
Vullaby (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Overcoat
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 76 Def / 196 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Defog/HP Fighting/Heat Wave
Obvious change the nature to like Naughty or some shit if you use HP Fight or Heat Wave, as well as changing the investment from Def into SpA. +Spe natures can be used as well.
Can I just interrupt some of these splits stuff with a different proposal? I am going to propose Taillow to B-Rank
I was testing a lot of Taillow yesterday and it's pretty good for reference I was using this set:
Taillow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Facade
- Steel Wing
Basically what's really good about it is that it's the best offensive switchin to Misdreavus, as the only thing it fears is a tricked Choice Specs or a Tbolt. Unlike other mons like Pawniard, it doesn't really fear HP Fight or a Burn, it actually benefits from a burn. People are also using Missy/Mienfoo/Pawn as a common core, which is weak to FletchDig. What relevance does this have? Archen is the best way to fix the problems against that core, and makes archen a pretty strong partner with Misdreavus especially because of how many people over-prepare against FletchDig. Taillow can dismantle this Missy/Mienfoo/Archen core by switching into Will-o-Wisps and luring in Archen and nailing it with Steel Wing, then wrecking havoc with Brave Bird and suicide bombing til it dies. Facade also fucking hurts when burnt, and is a safe recoil-free alternative to Brave Bird. This poke functions similarly to Doduo, but has more utility with U-Turn and the ability to switch into Will-O-Wisp. Taillow also hits that glorious 19 Speed tier, which makes it outspeed weather pokes like Oddish/Sprout in sun and revenge those (which definitely helped me in the ladder, I was the first to use Bellsprout Sun in the LC Ladder idgaf if it was in BW) along with revenging stuff like weak scarf pawniards and +1 Scraggys, or playing the u-turn momentum game vs Focus Sash Abra that Scarf Mienfoo tends to do as well. It does have similar issues to the previously mentioned Doduo, like weakness to priority and being setup fodder to setup smashers like Tirt, but if fucking Snover/Doduo can be B-rank, I'm pretty sure Taillow can be because it provides a niche on offensive teams that is actually warranted in this kind of meta.
I was testing a lot of Taillow yesterday and it's pretty good for reference I was using this set:
Taillow @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Facade
- Steel Wing
Basically what's really good about it is that it's the best offensive switchin to Misdreavus, as the only thing it fears is a tricked Choice Specs or a Tbolt. Unlike other mons like Pawniard, it doesn't really fear HP Fight or a Burn, it actually benefits from a burn. People are also using Missy/Mienfoo/Pawn as a common core, which is weak to FletchDig. What relevance does this have? Archen is the best way to fix the problems against that core, and makes archen a pretty strong partner with Misdreavus especially because of how many people over-prepare against FletchDig. Taillow can dismantle this Missy/Mienfoo/Archen core by switching into Will-o-Wisps and luring in Archen and nailing it with Steel Wing, then wrecking havoc with Brave Bird and suicide bombing til it dies. Facade also fucking hurts when burnt, and is a safe recoil-free alternative to Brave Bird. This poke functions similarly to Doduo, but has more utility with U-Turn and the ability to switch into Will-O-Wisp. Taillow also hits that glorious 19 Speed tier, which makes it outspeed weather pokes like Oddish/Sprout in sun and revenge those (which definitely helped me in the ladder, I was the first to use Bellsprout Sun in the LC Ladder idgaf if it was in BW) along with revenging stuff like weak scarf pawniards and +1 Scraggys, or playing the u-turn momentum game vs Focus Sash Abra that Scarf Mienfoo tends to do as well. It does have similar issues to the previously mentioned Doduo, like weakness to priority and being setup fodder to setup smashers like Tirt, but if fucking Snover/Doduo can be B-rank, I'm pretty sure Taillow can be because it provides a niche on offensive teams that is actually warranted in this kind of meta.
"...if fucking Snover/Doduo can be B-rank..."
wait, Snover's B rank?
move Snover down to C+ when that eventually gets made because imo Snover can't really do that much. A life orb set is easily revenged by fletch or walled and killed by pawn, both very common in the tier. Without a scarf he can't hit fletch with ice shard because it outspeeds and kills with acrobatics anyways. Also, scarf ice shard can't kill fletch at full health. With an ice rock snover is weak and frail, unable to kill nearly everything 1v1. Hail is a mediocre playstyle in XY LC compared to BW because of the decline of sand teams. I guess you can kinda counter sunsprout if you predict a solarbeam correctly and win speed ties. Evio Snover is pretty reliable I guess but it still has weaknesses to the common flying, steel, rock and fire types. Unless you are a true man and use bear force one Cubchoo then your hail might hinder you more than help you. If it isn't C+ at least make it B-.
wait, Snover's B rank?
move Snover down to C+ when that eventually gets made because imo Snover can't really do that much. A life orb set is easily revenged by fletch or walled and killed by pawn, both very common in the tier. Without a scarf he can't hit fletch with ice shard because it outspeeds and kills with acrobatics anyways. Also, scarf ice shard can't kill fletch at full health. With an ice rock snover is weak and frail, unable to kill nearly everything 1v1. Hail is a mediocre playstyle in XY LC compared to BW because of the decline of sand teams. I guess you can kinda counter sunsprout if you predict a solarbeam correctly and win speed ties. Evio Snover is pretty reliable I guess but it still has weaknesses to the common flying, steel, rock and fire types. Unless you are a true man and use bear force one Cubchoo then your hail might hinder you more than help you. If it isn't C+ at least make it B-.
Well this is new. I'll have to try it out.
I would say as a scarfer, it still hold a niche at beating nonprio birds and by running Hidden Power Fighting, you can lure Pawniard in.
Hail has never been a playstyle in LC since it barely has abusers, last gen it was just a way to get rid of sand.
Cubchoo is a terrible idea to run with Snover. At least in my opinion. It's only hitting 13 Speed so either you have to run a scarf and miss out on power or run Evio and rely onyour ability for longevity. I guess Rattled Scarf has it's niche of staying at Scarf speed and having move freedom in turn for taking damage :( But back to the point at hand.
Snover a shit yes but i still get mileage out of Scarf Blizzspam and now i get to lure Pawniards. Although i dont run Ice Shard so i can get all the Special attack i can. Plus...
184 SpA Snover Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 10-12 (43.4 - 52.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after hail damage
184 SpA Snover Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Misdreavus: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage supposed to be BJ then i can trap with a Dark :)
184 SpA Snover Shadow Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Misdreavus: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage supposed to be BJ then i can trap with a Dark :)
I like luring things in to take free damage
tl;dr Snover can stay B- / C+ depending on how it's used. More than often it's kinda terrible now :(
Because of STAB, and its higher BP, a neutral Blizzard out-damages a SE Shadow Ball (okay with LC rolls thats not always the case, but Blizzard has a 9.8% chance to 2hko missy, while SB only has 12.1% chance to 2hko missy), the only thing I can think of that this hits harder than Blizzard is Slowpoke, which takes far more damage from Giga Drain.
What? Doesn't that mean that Blizzard is out damaged by Shadow Ball?
Yeah, I started my post thinking that 110*1.5 > 80*2, which is true, but LC has stupid rolls, I was more saying, why would you ever use Shadow Ball when it doesn't hit anything harder (most the time Blizzard and SB have same rolls).
To be frank i thought it would work out fine...
Back to my drawing board then.
But to be frank is there ANYTHING salvaging Snover at this point in this meta? Or is it just doomed beyond it's life?
Last edited:
Yeah Snover isn't what it used to be I'm afraid. I like the idea of scarf with Hp Fight to lure in Pawnaird but other than that kinda gay. Also Scarf with Ice Shard should out prioritise Fletchling I'm pretty sure although I have never tried it
Snover is good only if you REALLY hate Vulpix and Hippo. He might be one of the only somewhat viable Ice-types in the tier, but 100% accurate Blizzard isn't the most valuable niche when you have seven weaknesses.
I'd be very happy to move Snover down to C: Amaura is much more viable than Snover as a powerful Ice spammer, and it has a much more useful flying resist. I guess Eviolite Snover makes a pretty good Water-type switch-in however, which could give it a large niche, but 99% of the time, there's something more useful which can be used. Since there's an overall agreement, I'll move it down.
Also agreeing with Taillow rising to B, it's a fantastic Pokemon which can either go special or physical and either way it's a fantastic wallbreaker which can easily pave the way for many late game sweepers.
Also agreeing with Taillow rising to B, it's a fantastic Pokemon which can either go special or physical and either way it's a fantastic wallbreaker which can easily pave the way for many late game sweepers.
Boomburst hurts. And considering how physically oriented the tier normally is, it's difficult for anything to switch in since it 2hkos most anything that doesn't outright resist normal (since immunities aren't even safe). On the special side Taillow also gets more coverage in the form of HP Fighting and Heat Wave, which hit those pokemon who resist Boomburst. It's also less prone to being worn down by status damage and the like, so it can stay healthier later into the match.
That being said, however, Guts Facade does hit harder. It's just a little easier to switch into due to the lack of coverage options and the fact that ghosts either get a free switch into your strongest move and you take a lot of recoil from Brave Bird/status.
Immediate damage (which is useful against Pokemon that might be able to set up on Taillow using Protect), ability to hit through Substitute, greater survivability against Protect/Fake Out users, ability to spam a single move to negate the need for risky Brave Bird/Facade predicts, decently powerful Hidden Power Fighting to deal with Pawniard on the switch, hits physically defensive Pokemon harder. Both physical and special variants have their advantages, I think.
Kappaten too fast :(
Kappaten too fast :(
I though it was about time that I do this too. :)
B+ Rank
Abra - Here I just quote what Hawkstar said;
"It has two great sets: Sash and SubLO; It's the best Focus Sash user in the tier thanks to Magic Guard preventing hazards from breaking it, meaning that Abra will always live through any single hit.
It can kill any frail sweeper without multi-hit moves regardless of how boosted up their Speed or attacking stats may be. The Sub + Life Orb set will make a kill every time it ends up behind a Substitute, and even without it, can 2HKO basically the whole tier with very few exceptions."
Bunnelby - Without doubt the best wallbreaker in Little Cup, thanks to it's great ability Huge Power, which gives it a scary 28 Attack. Can also hit Ghost-types fairly hard with Thief. It's slow speed and frailness keeps it down, so B+ is fine.
Diglett - A great Pokemon for offensive teams, that can do a lot of things. Set up rocks, Memento and clean out the opponents Fletchling counters is just some of the things this little mole can do.
Ferroseed - Here I quote what Corporal Levi said;
"An absolutely phenomenal supportive movepool allows Ferroseed to really function on teams that require its strengths. It's defensive typing coupled with great defensive stats mean it can take advantage of said movepool extremely well. Although it can be set-up bait to a few Pokemon and is quite prone to being worn down, the utility it brings is considerable."
Omanyte - In my opinion the best Shell Smasher in this metagame right now. After one Shell Smash, it hits a whopping 38 SpA and 26 Speed. Requires a fair amount of support, but damn, it's worth it. Surf/Ice Beam/Earth Power gives it perfect coverage. Only special walls like Porygon can surivive a +2 Surf. Being able to wall Fletch is also really nice.
Onix - Best suicide lead after Dwebble. Hits 17 Speed, and also gets Taunt and Dragon Tail. 55 Attack may not sound too strong, but STAB Rock Blast and STAB Earthquake does more than you think. Can also be used later in the game to stop Fletchling.
Vullaby [Down from A-] - 27 Defense after Eviolite boost is one of the highest in LC, but I feel Vullaby isn't as good as it was. After it loses it's Eviolite, it's pretty easy to take down. It's still a very good Support-mon with Defog and reliable recovering move in Roost, but A- is a bit too high.
Zigzagoon - Give this guy Memento support, remove Ghost-types and Normal-resitsts and it's basically gg. Yes, Ziggy requires much support, but it's the same as for Omanyte; it's so damn worth it. +6 Extremespeed is just so incredibly strong, and it's also +2 priority.
B Rank
Gastly - Gastly looks fairly similiar to Abra when you look at the stats. But while Abra have Magic Guard (which makes it a great Sash-user) and have 19 Speed, Gastly only have 18 Speed and Levitate as ability. But it does have a niche because of STAB Sludge Bomb which is indeed really nice with all the fairies running around, and a strong 100 SpA makes it really strong with Life Orb.
Houndour - Beats Missy with Pursuit and Sucker Punch, and also hits really hard with Life Orb. Problem with Houndour is that's it pretty frail, and it's also weak to Fighting. Life Orb is really the only viable set, since as a bulky Fire-type Pokemon, Growlithe and Ponyta completely outclasses it.
Larvesta - Maybe the best Fighting-type check, but 4x weakness to Stealth Rock really hurts it. It's Bug-typing also makes it very weak against Fletchling. Timburr also loves the 30% chance of burn from Flame Body.
Lickitung - When it comes to wishpassers I prefer Spritzee, but a Spritzee/Snubbull + Lickitung core is really solid. It also have a really good 90/75/75 mixed bulk, and Knock Off, which is really neat.
Munchlax - A long time since I have used Munchlax, but I doubt he have become better since last time. Porygon just outclasses it as a special wall.
Slowpoke - Regenerator and a solid 90/65/40 bulk is cool, but weakness to Knock Off really hurts Slowpokes viability. But if you clean out the opponents Knock Off users, Slowpoke is one of the best walls in Little Cup.
Snubbull - Here again I just quote what Levi said;
"Another Pokemon I've been using extensively as a teammate for Lickitung especially, Snubbull can fit on all kinds of teams that need a good switch-in to Fighting-types. It's quite powerful and has some good coverage options, making it difficult to switch into for offensive Pokemon, and can support the team with Heal Bell or Thunder Wave. It's really a shame that Snubbull doesn't get reliable recovery outside of RestTalk, although such a set isn't actually too bad from my experience."
Vulpix - Vulpix may not look too scary on the outside, but when you take a deeper look, you will quickly find out that this little fox is really powerful. Choice Specs Overheat OHKO's both Timburr and defensive Mienfoo. Heat Rock can also be used for sun teams, for 3 more sun-turns.
B- Rank
Doduo - Doduo is a bit like our old, banned friend Murkrow, just slower, frailer and a worse movepool. But it still have a niche being a good wallbreaker with Life Orb.
Koffing - Was very good during Swirlgar, but Koffing's golden age is over. Things like Abra and Drilbur just totally wrecks it, and there are better Poison-types if you need something for fairies, or to stop Fighting-types with, like Foongus.
Riolu [Up from C-rank] - Set up Swords Dance and spam High Jump Kick. The downside for Riolu is that it does need a ton of support, since Ghost, Fairy and Poison-types all stops Riolu's sweep, and hazards are needed to break Sturdy. It's also fairly frail. But Copycat HJK should never be underestimated.
Torchic - Torchic's viability have got a bit hurt because of the raise of Fletchling usage, but there are also very few Haze/Clear Smog and Whirlwind/Roar users. It have also lost it's best Baton Pass partner, Meditite.
Wynaut - Was fairly popular during KrowTite to lock and KO Meditite, but Wynaut's niche is smaller now after the ban of Meditite. Wynaut is still annoying as always, but there are many ways to play around it.
B+ Rank
"It has two great sets: Sash and SubLO; It's the best Focus Sash user in the tier thanks to Magic Guard preventing hazards from breaking it, meaning that Abra will always live through any single hit.
It can kill any frail sweeper without multi-hit moves regardless of how boosted up their Speed or attacking stats may be. The Sub + Life Orb set will make a kill every time it ends up behind a Substitute, and even without it, can 2HKO basically the whole tier with very few exceptions."
"An absolutely phenomenal supportive movepool allows Ferroseed to really function on teams that require its strengths. It's defensive typing coupled with great defensive stats mean it can take advantage of said movepool extremely well. Although it can be set-up bait to a few Pokemon and is quite prone to being worn down, the utility it brings is considerable."
B Rank
"Another Pokemon I've been using extensively as a teammate for Lickitung especially, Snubbull can fit on all kinds of teams that need a good switch-in to Fighting-types. It's quite powerful and has some good coverage options, making it difficult to switch into for offensive Pokemon, and can support the team with Heal Bell or Thunder Wave. It's really a shame that Snubbull doesn't get reliable recovery outside of RestTalk, although such a set isn't actually too bad from my experience."
B- Rank
I'll put Taillow for B+ as well and here's my speel
+19 speed
+breaks walls like nothing
+new spam material in boomburst (140 bp normal with no drawbacks plus scrappy = lolno ghosts)
+can go physical (toxic orb guts) or special (specs)
-speed ties suck
-shit defensive game
-specs is movelocked (scrappy helps mitigate this v well)
-easy to revenge
fantastic af mon and i would hate to see it lower.
Any others rising and falling ? (rip snover)
I would keep Trubbish at A. My reasoning for this is that it is a great Mienfoo counter as it resists Drain Punch & U-Turn, It has Sticky Hold to keep its item from the Knock Off. Overall, Its a great BerryCycle mon & a Spikes setter which makes it a good mon (now only if it wasnt countered by Missy)
In response to KaabiiMachBike, foongus is a pretty good fighting type counter in general. It has regenerator, which adds to its already great bulk, poison typing, while it's only downside is weakness to knock off. However, mienfoo or timburr fail to do anything in return. Foongus also acts as a check to misdreavus, pawniard (if it has HP fight, which is an actually extremely viable 4th moveslot), carvanha, and other A-rank threats, while trubbish can only pose a threat to fighting types. If trubbish moves back up to A-rank, foongus should definitely move up as well.
Last edited:
Lemme argue on behalf of Buneary real quick, and before you ask, no I'm not trolling. D-rank doesn't do Buneary justice. It has access to an amazing niche: Switcheroo and Klutz. With a Flame Orb, Buneary can Pseudo-Knock Off and burn a Mienfoo in one turn, thus majorly crippling it for the rest of the battle. If a wall is giving you problems, Switcheroo it an Assault Vest or a Choice Scarf. The best part about Buneary is that you don't reveal which item you're going to cripple the other poke with because of Klutz. Granted, this means that the gained Berry Juices or Eviolites won't provide their boosts, so I'm not arguing Buneary deserves A or B. It's not too weak with Return; it gets Encore, Baton Pass, Agility, Cosmic Power (if you're into that), and it hits the coveted 19 Speed, making it an all-around effective poke. I am arguing it deserves C+ (whenever that gets made) or just C for now. It's simply too good to lounge in D.
- Status