Let's shake up the DW OU metagame...

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
is a Pokemon Researcher
DrizzleSwSw, Keldeo, Manaphy, and Techniloom COMBINED is way too scary when it comes to how powerful Rain could become. DrizzleSwSw really could be done without.

Now, if Manaphy does, for whatever reason, get brought back, so should Blaziken. It means that basically every weather but Hail would have a handful of ridiculously powerful sweepers under their belt to abuse. If Manaphy doesn't come back, Blaziken shouldn't either. Two of the best weather sweepers really balance each other out.
 

Katakiri

Listen, Brendan...
is a Researcher Alumnus
Oh god...please don't TRY to break DW because "it's boring & stale." My boy, this peace is what all true warriors strive for!
I already prefer PO's DW OU since it's active & they actually take care of it, but please, please don't give me a reason to actually hate Smogon's DW.

Let's play this game then; What has changed from Standard OU to DW OU that makes Uber Pokemon okay to use again?

Garchomp:
Absolutely nothing. There is nothing unreleased now that deals with Garchomp any better than the Pokemon in current OU. Absolutely nothing.

Blaziken:
Ditto...The same could be said of all Sweepers not named Sand Veil Garchomp.

Thundurus:
This is actually legitimate. Zapdos & Raikou especially pretty much deals with Thundurus...Them and just about every Scarved Pokemon in the game...WHY THIS BANNED AGAIN? A Pokemon with a Scarf was just too hard for teams to run? Eh.

Excadrill:
Absolutely nothing but Breloom. Might be worth a test but it still does break speed-tiers and make running Scarf Pokemon kinda pointless....THAT'S WHY WE BANNED THUNDURUS! It WAS too hard to run Scarf!

Manaphy:
Honestly...nothing. Nothing makes Manaphy any less broken than it was in OU.

Drizzle + Swift Swim:
Not a damn thing between DW & OU makes this anything less than Uber.

Deoxys-S:
Absolutely nothing.

Moody:
Ha!

Am I missing anything that someone would actually consider unbanning?

Aside from Genesect, Keldeo, Zapdos, Breloom, Ditto, & Serperior, DW OU & OU are the exact same tier. Everyone seems to think it's a completely different game, but it's REALLY not. In fact side from the Pokemon I just mentioned, a rise in Espeon because of Breloom & a fall in Rotom-W because of Lightning Rod Zapdos are the only things drastically different between DW usage & OU usage.

God forbid we have a stable metagame, guys. God forbid. "I'm booooored!" That's THE best reason to suspect test that I've ever heard.
 
i don't know why we would shake up the meta tbh /:

wanting change is ok, but only if the change actually is for something good. change for the sake of change isn't really useful, and it was of my opinion that stable (even if they are "stale") metagames are what smogon wants
 

Matthew

I love weather; Sun for days
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the reason we are suggesting this is because we have reason to believe that specific pokemon will no longer be as dominating as a threat because of the released pokemon. And. for. the. last. time. THUNDURUS and EXCADRILL are already ALLOWED on the ladder. I've ALLOWED both EXCADRILL and THUNDURUS to be ON THE LADDER for over a MONTH at this point. Do you see Excadrill or Thundurus anywhere? Excadrill is #43 and Thundurus is #150something. Our statements about them not being as dominating of a threat is true. This gives reason to believe that we can have a smaller ban list in BW OU.

I don't want to start giving out warnings, but everyone read this god-damn post
 

Mario With Lasers

Self-proclaimed NERFED king
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Did people even *know* they were allowed? If no one knew, that's like saying we should allow Double Team because it wasn't Claused in the beginning of 5th Gen on PO and yet no one used it.
 

Katakiri

Listen, Brendan...
is a Researcher Alumnus
I JUST started playing Smogon DW OU and I have Excadrill & Thundurus on my team.

3 out of the 5 games I played, I got called out for using "banned Pokemon" Clearly people don't realize they're legal.

Normally I run Sun in all tiers but if Exca & Thundurus are really THAT low, then Challenge Accepted.

Edit: 4 out of 6 matches. Jesus christ, guys.
 

Matthew

I love weather; Sun for days
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Did people even *know* they were allowed? If no one knew, that's like saying we should allow Double Team because it wasn't Claused in the beginning of 5th Gen on PO and yet no one used it.
I've made several threads about both here in DST and in PR. So everyone knows.
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
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Oh god...please don't TRY to break DW because "it's boring & stale." My boy, this peace is what all true warriors strive for!
I already prefer PO's DW OU since it's active & they actually take care of it, but please, please don't give me a reason to actually hate Smogon's DW.

Let's play this game then; What has changed from Standard OU to DW OU that makes Uber Pokemon okay to use again?

Garchomp:
Absolutely nothing. There is nothing unreleased now that deals with Garchomp any better than the Pokemon in current OU. Absolutely nothing.

Blaziken:
Ditto...The same could be said of all Sweepers not named Sand Veil Garchomp.

Thundurus:
This is actually legitimate. Zapdos & Raikou especially pretty much deals with Thundurus...Them and just about every Scarved Pokemon in the game...WHY THIS BANNED AGAIN? A Pokemon with a Scarf was just too hard for teams to run? Eh.

Excadrill:
Absolutely nothing but Breloom. Might be worth a test but it still does break speed-tiers and make running Scarf Pokemon kinda pointless....THAT'S WHY WE BANNED THUNDURUS! It WAS too hard to run Scarf!

Manaphy:
Honestly...nothing. Nothing makes Manaphy any less broken than it was in OU.

Drizzle + Swift Swim:
Not a damn thing between DW & OU makes this anything less than Uber.

Deoxys-S:
Absolutely nothing.

Moody:
Ha!

Am I missing anything that someone would actually consider unbanning?

Aside from Genesect, Keldeo, Zapdos, Breloom, Ditto, & Serperior, DW OU & OU are the exact same tier. Everyone seems to think it's a completely different game, but it's REALLY not. In fact side from the Pokemon I just mentioned, a rise in Espeon because of Breloom & a fall in Rotom-W because of Lightning Rod Zapdos are the only things drastically different between DW usage & OU usage.

God forbid we have a stable metagame, guys. God forbid. "I'm booooored!" That's THE best reason to suspect test that I've ever
DW Conkeldur was added too as a check to Conk with its Iron Fist Mach Punch to revenge kill even easier than before.
Also if we unban Thundurus and Excadrill,then Deoxys-S should be unbanned as well since both pokes him handle him pretty well!
 

Pocket

be the upgraded version of me
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Not too sure how Garchomp is any less annoying to face in DW with Sand available for some outrageous misses. We can test Garchomp to be sure, but I think it would still be broken for the same reason.

Deoxys-S should definitely be allowed if DW has been affected by the latest tiering decision, since there is Excadrill and Ditto to check heavy offense.

I believe Blaziken is worth a re-test. Blaziken has been somewhat of a controversial issue (at least initially), and with mons like Ditto, TechLoom, and Shadow Tag Chandelure, which forces Blaziken to pack Stone-Edge / Shadow Claw, may possibly make Blaziken more managable in DW. There's the BP set, but that has coverage issues (it lacks either Protect or one of its Double STAB, assuming it's a SD BPasser) - I'm pretty sure it can be dealt "somewhat" similarly to Shell Smash Gorebyss.
 
Garchomp is still pretty powerful without sand; I feel it might prove a bit too OP if it was brought down even in a sandless environment. Substitute SD YacheChomp is pretty boss.
 
I'll say Garchomp, and here's some reasoning. Both positive and negative!

First, I don't see him being a prominent setup sweeper that takes entire teams down. The most commonly seen Garchomps will probably be the scarfed versions. Revenge killers. Dang good revenge killers and harder to take down, but still. The only version that could be a deadly setup sweeper is the sub/dd version that the above poster mentioned. And it can be phazed, something most teams carry anyway.

Secondly, a lot of the metagame has been centralizing around Dragonite, much more so than before. Seriously, everyone's prepared for Dragonite. I've been seeing a TON of Mammoswine and Scizor lately. Since that's the direction the metagame is headed in, I feel a lot of teams are a lot more prepared for Garchomp than they think they are. Ice Shard and Bullet Punch! Not OHKOs, but they'll put a dent into Garchomp, and he can be worn out throughout the match like any revenge killer. Priority moves aside, the main thing that flat-out outspeeds Garchomp is a scarfed Latios. That became something we just didn't see for a while, but with the emergence of Dragonite, Haxorus, and even Salamence, I've been seeing it lately! This stuff that checks Garchomp isn't a wasted teamslot that prepares you for him only... it's stuff that's already being carried on teams to prepare for the metagame as it is.

The weather was one of the reasons people say they favor Garchomp being banned. Hitting him in the sand is tough and a miss can be game-changing. But with how popular weather is, Garchomp is plenty likely to end up under the rain, sun, or even hail. (I've seen way more hail teams lately... anyone else?) Plenty of "weather wars" as we call them tend to come down to who wins the weather setting battle. How is Garchomp's evasion that much of an exception?

Now... this is a different subject that I won't go into that deeply... but... If Sand Veil really is the last thing pushing him over the edge... There could always be discussion for a "no sand stream + sand veil on the same team" ban. I don't see that as a partial ban of a poke. It's no different from drizzle/ss. Drizzle isn't banned, nor is ss. You just can't have them on the same team. Back to the subject...

The things I see going against Garchomp are the same as always. Yep, he's got those huge stats. He's tough to take down. But it can be done. He's not weak to SR like Dragonite and Salamence. Yep, but those 2 fly and are immune to spikes, where Garchomp is not. Garchomp is immune to the priority Thunder Wave of the now-unbanned Thundurus. It has that going against it, since status is something that can really shut it down. But it can still be burned, which is bad news. While there are berries that can solve that problem, Garchomp must choose between that or a Yache berry. So he can't have all of that covered.

Those are my thoughts there. The idea is to lift the ban on some pokes and see how the DW OU metagame handles them. If it ends up being still too much to handle, by all means it can be banned again. I think that it's been a while since we've seen Garchomp, and with the shifting of the metagame since then, it's worth a try.
 
You really can't just say that Garchomp's PROBABLY going to run a Scarf Set. The DW OU and current Ubers Meta are completely different. Garchomp runs scarf in Ubers because he outspeeds a huge majority of them and can act as a revenge killer, while his SD set, outside of STAB coverage, is almost entirely outclassed by Rayquaza who's only disadvantage is speed.

In OU, he has a lot more options available to him because he's still faster than a lot of things (LOLOL LANDORUS :D), and can run CB for raw power, SubSD due to the fact that his bulk is actually good in OU, SD + 3 attacks, Choice Scarf, etc, just due to the fact that the meta is full of different things he'll want and need to cover.
 

BurningMan

fueled by beer
What about Deo-N? He was never actually tested, because everyone said he was uber even though he wasn't used at all, so all we got against him is theorymon. I can clearly see the points of the people who were against it and understand the decision to simply ban it to move foward in the standart metagame instead of "wasting" another round testing it, but i think it wouldn't be wrong to actually test it in DW OU. If we see that its clearly uber we can still ban it without any formalities after a week or two.
He wasn't banned on the offical PO server for quite some time (well Drizzle +SS wasn't either, and i don't want that back) and if we wan't to shake up the metagame a bit Deo-N could surely do that.

Now people can start flaming me with big lists of calcs that show how uber it is.
 

Pocket

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Deoxys-N may be worth a test. It's not a crazy-ass revenge-killer like LO Deoxys-S, which can even check Salamence after a Dragon Dance. Deoxys-S is also faster than Timid Scarf Rotom-W, Scarf Landorus, Scarf Genesect, and Scarf Haxorus / Hydreigon, which cannot be said for Deoxys-N. Deoxys-N is still useful for revenge-killing Dragonite and Gyarados after +1 DD, and still outruns Adamant Scarf Darmanitan / Scarf Chandelure, and slower Scarfers.

Also, unlike Deoxys-S, Doexys-N has shit defenses comparable to that of Alakazam's, and is MUCH more vulnerable to priority. Scizor can solidly check it, for instance. The 30 base offense difference between Deoxys-N and Deoxys-A makes a noticeable difference in destructiveness; Deoxys-N hits 13% softer than Deoxys-A.

IMO a team with Deoxys-N plays with a team of 5 / somewhat similar to a team with Alakazam, since neither of them can switch-in safely. Unlike Deoxys-S, Deoxys-A also loses momentum when the opponent brings in their Scarfer / priority-mon, making it more of a hit-and-run mon than a one-stop Sweeper.
 
Garchomp needs a re-test. Excadrill can stay Uber, mmkay?
And Blaziken can have a re-test.

That's about it.

Deoxys-N may be worth a test. It's not a crazy-ass revenge-killer like LO Deoxys-S, which can even check Salamence after a Dragon Dance. Deoxys-S is also faster than Timid Scarf Rotom-W, Scarf Landorus, Scarf Genesect, and Scarf Haxorus / Hydreigon, which cannot be said for Deoxys-N. Deoxys-N is still useful for revenge-killing Dragonite and Gyarados after +1 DD, and still outruns Adamant Scarf Darmanitan / Scarf Chandelure, and slower Scarfers.

Also, unlike Deoxys-S, Doexys-N has shit defenses comparable to that of Alakazam's, and is MUCH more vulnerable to priority. Scizor can solidly check it, for instance. The 30 base offense difference between Deoxys-N and Deoxys-A makes a noticeable difference in destructiveness; Deoxys-N hits 13% softer than Deoxys-A.

IMO a team with Deoxys-N plays with a team of 5 / somewhat similar to a team with Alakazam, since neither of them can switch-in safely. Unlike Deoxys-S, Deoxys-A also loses momentum when the opponent brings in their Scarfer / priority-mon, making it more of a hit-and-run mon than a one-stop Sweeper.
No. Deoxys-N should stay away. Not only is its speed still ridiculous, and while he does have a greater weakness to priority, he could still outrun most of the metagame. And don't even try to say that 150 base SP. Atk. + Choice specs isn't evil.

Deoxys-N should stay Uber, because while Scizor is a counter, the bad news for the thing ends there, and it still has base 150 SPE. Which is still insanity.
 
I've played extensive DW OU on PO server (which is a lot more active and balanced than Smogon's current DW OU tier. Latios is banned, Chandelure is banned)

Deoxys-N CAN be retested, it has one Pokemon that can check it (mixed defensive Bronzong in Rain), and one Pokemon that can counter it (mixed defensive Jirachi in Rain)

Has anyone seen the power of Chandelure? It single-handedly rapes stall. Ruins Ferrothorn. Skarmory. Gliscor. (insert Grass type here).
And a Sub-CM-AcidArmor-Flamethrower set uses Chansey and Blissey as set-up fodder.
 
Chandelure is indeed incredibly powerful, but wouldn't Heatran fuck that set over? Quagsire? There are options, right?
 
Chandelure is indeed incredibly powerful, but wouldn't Heatran fuck that set over? Quagsire? There are options, right?
Well that depends. HP Ground Chandy will switch into Heatran (only reason, really). But although you probably figured out the HP type and know it will probably KO you...

YOU CANNOT SWITCH OUT. YOU SIT THERE AND DIE.

Energy Ball Chandelure switches into Quagsire.

YOU ARE SCREWED.

Unless you want to run Shed Shell everything, you will lose at least one Pokemon unless your opponent is an idiot.

In the current metagame, I would think the only valid argument for keeping it is that it's slow, even with a Scarf. It loses quite a bit of power with Timid and Modest is actually outsped by stuff like Jolteon, Aerodactyl, Crobat (who is very usable in the current metagame as a Breloom check if it doesn't run Stone Edge/Rock Tomb and something has been Spored. Not much, but it's still something), and other Pokemon with Base 130+ Speed. It's also outsped by other Scarfers (Rotom, Starmie, and Gengar)
 
I always ran Jolly Excadrill. But never mind.

Since Dream World existed then with Shadow Tag Chand, TechLoom, Unburden Lee then already in the very early stages, what is the point of a test? Wouldn't there be data already or was that unofficial? (Then again it probably was since it was all Abilities). Still...

I don't think Imposter Ditto is going to stop setting up behind screens, especially once Ditto comes in. Most Ditto were scarfed and therefore (thankfully) easier to get around although it is annoying. But as long as you hit super-effective on yourself and can't ko through screen, Ditto would be in trouble. I think Excadrill and Thundurus with priority Thunderwaves were probably what kept screen boosters in more line than Ditto (although Ditto is still phenomenal and would keep them wary of boosting too much).

I guess it would be okay to test Exca/Thundurus but there is no reason for Manaphy, Blaziken , or other ubers, especially the ones that are undoubtedly uber regardless.
Honestly, replace the bolded with kyogre and I think your post is perfect. Blaze isn't bad man. imo it shouldn't have ever been banned in the first place.
EDIT: And @ Katakari (sorry, on phone), NP Lucy easily checked drill. Just saying
 
I've played extensive DW OU on PO server (which is a lot more active and balanced than Smogon's current DW OU tier. Latios is banned, Chandelure is banned)

Deoxys-N CAN be retested, it has one Pokemon that can check it (mixed defensive Bronzong in Rain), and one Pokemon that can counter it (mixed defensive Jirachi in Rain)

Has anyone seen the power of Chandelure? It single-handedly rapes stall. Ruins Ferrothorn. Skarmory. Gliscor. (insert Grass type here).
And a Sub-CM-AcidArmor-Flamethrower set uses Chansey and Blissey as set-up fodder.
I use Latios on my PO DW OU team. No one said it was banned.

No. 1 Machop Fan said:
That makes two of us! :D

I don't mind what changes come to DW OU, as long as Ditto and my other troll team Pokemon are spared a ban.
I think Ditto is worth a test.

Ditto's insane ability Imposter allows it not only to copy all non-HP stats, but also allows it to copy boosts. In such a metagame where the doom of a sweeper is it's Scarfed version with the same boosts, Ditto is an ideal revenge killer. I do not speak for my own team, which uses 4 Choiced Pokemon, but for teams that are swept by my Ditto after it revenges their +3 +3+3 Volcarona. (It happens more than you think.)
 
I think Ditto is worth a test.

Ditto's insane ability Imposter allows it not only to copy all non-HP stats, but also allows it to copy boosts. In such a metagame where the doom of a sweeper is it's Scarfed version with the same boosts, Ditto is an ideal revenge killer. I do not speak for my own team, which uses 4 Choiced Pokemon, but for teams that are swept by my Ditto after it revenges their +3 +3+3 Volcarona. (It happens more than you think.)
You make a good point, but I think team preview reduces the effectiveness of Ditto somewhat -- any player, upon seeing Ditto in the team preview, should be cautious about setting up their sweepers if they know they are unable to deal with the monster they created once Ditto comes in to copy the boosts. From my experience, Ditto often becomes a wasted team slot against teams that do not run set up sweepers. It's a good pokemon no doubt but imo not a broken one.
 

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