Me. I've won more 7 turn battles w/ scraggy than I can count, it's just so good. DD/Dpunch/Crunch/Zenbutt moxie jolly 236/236 with 36specdef.hey man at least i somehow spelled misdreavous and hippototas right
also most likely moving scraggy down to A tonight. If anyone has objections speak now.
I second this. Shellder being able to break through subs while revenge killing is a huge boon for teams that struggle with Missy / Murkrow (among others). And then Shell Smash.Shellder...for B-rank imo
Can we establish something here?Me. I've won more 7 turn battles w/ scraggy than I can count, it's just so good. DD/Dpunch/Crunch/Zenbutt moxie jolly 236/236 with 36specdef.
Also, I still say dwebble is A Tier material
And thus, every solid team in the metagame works hard to counter it. A tier.Scraggy Has:
4x resistance to the most common priority
The best boosting move for physical sweepers in the game: Dragon Dance
Two amazing abilities in moxie or shed skin, so it can either function without hazard support with moxie, or laugh at status with shed skin.
50/70/70 defences, making it incredibly defensive with eviolite even without investment, allowing it to survive even super effective hits.
3 move perfect coverage in zenbutt, crunch, and drainpunch, along with semi-reliable healing and almost unresisted dual STABs.
Little to no reliance on team support, it can function as a lead and let you start the game 5-3.
Great defensive synergy with pokemon like chinchou, with the ability to form a strong balanced core.
And yet it still succeeds. An S rank-worthy pokemon.And thus, every solid team in the metagame works hard to counter it. A tier.
Wingull has everything ducklett has, and rain dish for passive rain recover. TBH wingull should be low b-high cJacobNinja, everyone in this entire thread except for you has put Scraggy in A-rank. Majority rules, you lose, stop bringing it up, and moving on.
Ducklett - Low C / High D Rank
Alright, so Ducklett has STAB Hurricane and can use Rain Dance to make it 100% accurate. Does that make up for the fact that Chinchou completely counters it and can easily kill it with Volt Switch, arguably Chinchou's most common move? No.
Golett - C Rank
Golurk has a godly typing that helps out hugely in a tier full of Fighting-types abusing Hi Jump Kick. In addition, it gets a handy immunity to Volt Switch and Thunder Wave, a resistance to U-turn, and can abuse STAB Earthquake. It also gets Drain Punch for some handy healing, and major defense boost with Eviolite. Sadly, it lacks the one thing it really needs: Shadow Punch, the only good Physical Ghost-type move in existence. This means that Misdreavus, the most common Ghost-type, can switch in without fear and do whatever it needs to for one turn. Not only that, Golurk is really slow, and it can't take very many supereffective hits before dying. Not very befitting for something so adorable (Litwick is cuter).
Factually false. If you opt for intelligent play as opposed to running lures and/or Spikes then Scraggy beats its checks. Hi Jump Kick Mienfoo once, switch out, and next time you bring Scraggy in you can DD on the Mienfoo switch and OHKO with HJK. Croagunk is harder to take down but spamming Hi Jump Kick / Drain Punch early game puts it at the point where Scraggy is unstoppable late game.Scraggy requires heeps of support in the form of hazards, bait for its counters etc.
Just because something can't sweep immediately doesn't mean its not S-Rank. For example, LO Krow is arguably Murkrow's best set and can sweep any team that's relatively weakened in the mid or late game. However, LO Krow can't switch into any move, struggles with Stealth Rock, and has trouble staying alive for a long time. Scraggy requires an extra turn or two to set up(which is not going through a ton of trouble). Scraggy finds plenty of opportunities to switch in, isn't hampered by Stealth Rock or status, and can't take a hit or two if it needs to.if you have to go through all of that trouble to break down its counters / checks, it'd be A teir, not S as defined.
Wingull is incredibly fragile, and lacks FeatherDance and Big Pecks, both of which make Ducklett one of the best Scraggy counters. Wingull is a D-Rank Pokemon, as although it hits very hard in Rain, it has absolutely no survivability and Rain is difficult to keep up in this metagame. Ducklett, on the other hand, should probably be C-Rank, as it completely wrecks Scraggy (bar the rare Head Smash or ThunderPunch) and is a decent utility check to most Fighting-types.Wingull has everything ducklett has, and rain dish for passive rain recover. TBH wingull should be low b-high c
these two kind of scream bs to me. while scraggy literally needs very little team support like you said, it cant just come out beginning game and kill three pokemon unless the opponents team just flat out sucks (this isnt murkrow lol). every team has at least one or 2 scraggy counters/check so either before or after you kill something instantly, scraggy will either have to switch out or die. not many people will just let you set up a dd first turn cause almost every effing team that has a mienfoo leads with a mienfoo, and we all know what everyone says about how common mienfoo is.Little to no reliance on team support, it can function as a lead and let you start the game 5-3.
Great defensive synergy with pokemon like chinchou, with the ability to form a strong balanced core.
Just to defend my arugment; yes Mienfoo is predictable but what sets it apart from scraggy is that it *has* a viable baton pass set, a viable scarf set, a viable LO set, etc. It's mienfoo's ability to "perform many jobs well" *in addition* to its ability to perform its most common role as a defensive pivot near flawlessly that makes it S rank. Scraggy just doesnt have as many viable sets.To be honest, I'm really torn when it comes to Scraggy. Both Delver and Sir make very good points. When compared to other physical set up sweepers (Dwebble, Tirtouga, Shellder, Axew etc...) it needs less support that every single one. It can pretty much fit on any team and attempt a sweep. As Sir said, if played intelligently it finds getting past its counters quite easy. As Jacob Ninja pointed out, 4x resisting Sucker Punch is a great advantage over other sweepers such as Drilbur who will really fear Murkrow's Sucker Punch.
I'm not sure if the metagame has shifted enough to make Scraggy A rank. Pretty much every team carries Mienfoo but that isn't exactly hard to get past (read Sir's posts). The only real thing it has to fear imo, are faster revenge killers like ScarfKrow which isn't that common.
Looking at Delver's arguments, I think he's right in the fact that Scraggy's predictability lets it down. We all know what it's trying to do. (Although I have been running the moxie-scarf set to some success recently). But then again, isn't Mienfoo predictable? It's almost always running a bulky pivot set with the rare baton pass set and the even more rare scarf.
I'm not saying that Scraggy is either A or S, I just feel that there should be more thought about it as Sir has made a very good case on it being S. All I know is that it is hands down the best physical sweeper in the meta (better than Drilbur imo)*, but that's about all it can do.
*I'm not saying Scraggy is a better pokemon than Drilbur as Drilbur fills more roles such as Wall-Breaker/Rapid Spinner/Revenge Killer. I just feel that Scraggy can set up and sweep better than it.
EDIT: Sorry this is really rambly and I'm not sure I managed to get my thoughts coherently. Tell me if you need clarification.
Scraggy is arguably the best Pokemon in the metagame at doing what it does. With its good resistances and defenses, it's hardly risky to run Scraggy, while the reward is an easy to accomplish sweep. You don't need any team support to help out Scraggy, although it benefits from support that aids the whole team (duh). If Drilbur deserves to be S-Tier, Scraggy sure as hell does too.S rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
Agreed, both can be a pain but only if you have enough support for them. I think Shellder is a little more viable than Munchlax as it can set up on Murkrow while Munchlax is threatened by every fighting-type in the tier.Vader said:Shellder and Munchlax for B-rank imo
Foongus is B, not A. I have had more success with Bulbasaur than Foongus as Bulba has more SpA to damage Drilbur, higher Def and higher SpD. I think Foongus is just good on paper but it's not game changing even if its typing is good over Ferroseed and Lileep.Corkscrew said:Foongus - B or A rank
Bronzor - B rank
[...]
Lickitung - C rank
Munchlax - C rank
Aipom, YES, it's terible now that Team Preview disposed of the Lead concept. In the same note: Meowth to C. Everything else I have covered before.Macle said:Aipom is a C. Its the definition of mediocre.
Larvesta is a B. Its good but not great.
Mangemite is a B. Great for countering steel types and isn't completely useless besides that.
Bronzor, ferro, and Munchlax falls somewhere in between B or C.
Ducklett... I can't really tell. Never seen one, never used one.Gengan said:Ducklett - Low C / High D Rank
Golett - C Rank
Litwick - C Rank
Frillish - C Rank
YES, Houndour for B as it really is the best mixed attacker bar MixKrow. And its typing is really good for attaking. Fighting weakness? Yes, but Houndour is more of a pokemon to severly cripple the opponent team before a bigger sweeper can unleash its power. It can trap Missy and it doesn't fear a Burn; it can be used on Sand to counter Snover and that's saying something big if Snover is A.prem said:HOUNDOUR FOR B
Yay we win. But on the topic of ducklett, I have found wingull to be superior, and think wingull should be high c and ducklett low c. Doesn't the concept of high and low within tiers completely undermine the tiering system?Scraggy to S rank.
People have already explained why Wingull is the objectively inferior Pokemon. The only way you could validate Wingull being higher than Ducklett would be via it being an incredible offensive Pokemon (which it's honestly not), which still merits no comparison to Ducklett, who is mostly defensive. Other than that, everyone's already explained why Ducklett > Wingull. Ducklett to C, and Wingull to D.Yay we win. But on the topic of ducklett, I have found wingull to be superior, and think wingull should be high c and ducklett low c. Doesn't the concept of high and low within tiers completely undermine the tiering system?
+1 236+ Atk Scraggy Crunch vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Ducklett: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.69%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO, garunteed after RocksWingull is incredibly fragile, and lacks FeatherDance and Big Pecks, both of which make Ducklett one of the best Scraggy counters. Wingull is a D-Rank Pokemon, as although it hits very hard in Rain, it has absolutely no survivability and Rain is difficult to keep up in this metagame. Ducklett, on the other hand, should probably be C-Rank, as it completely wrecks Scraggy (bar the rare Head Smash or ThunderPunch) and is a decent utility check to most Fighting-types.
Seeing as Ducklett is just as insufficient as wingull is at switching into scraggy, and wingull has higher spa and speed, isn't wingull better?People have already explained why Wingull is the objectively inferior Pokemon. The only way you could validate Wingull being higher than Ducklett would be via it being an incredible offensive Pokemon (which it's honestly not), which still merits no comparison to Ducklett, who is mostly defensive. Other than that, everyone's already explained why Ducklett > Wingull. Ducklett to C, and Wingull to D.
I can't really judge Bulbusaur as I've never used it, but I still feel Foongus has the potential to be A. Yes, it's stats are low but it has one of the best abilities in the tier and along with immunity to toxic it's incredibly difficult to get worn down. It's more of a bulky pivot than a wall so the bad defenses don't matter too much imo. It's of the best Mienfoo checks in the tier as it can repeatedly switch in without getting worn down. It has just the right movepool for doing it's job; Spore and Stun Spore to cripple stuff, Clear Smog to prevent set-up and Giga Drain as a decent enough STAB. In general it's just a great team-supporter that, if played correctly, pretty much never dies thanks to regenerator.Foongus is B, not A. I have had more success with Bulbasaur than Foongus as Bulba has more SpA to damage Drilbur, higher Def and higher SpD. I think Foongus is just good on paper but it's not game changing even if its typing is good over Ferroseed and Lileep.
Bronzor is C. It can't do anything in the battle if it has been taunted, really. I think it has very good typing but all you have to do is slowly wear it down as it can't 2HKO anything. Vullaby and Murkrow can have a happy picnic on its face not to mention that every set-up sweeper laughs on its face, seeing that all of the threats on the upper ranks have at least one viable set-up move, I can't understand why Bronzor could be B.
Magnemite is B, possibly A. It's just a very good mon with the exact amount of support options to be annoying as hell. Sure, it's hampered by its Fighting weakness but at least it can Volt-switch to an appropriatte teammate to patch up that.
Lickitung and Munchie are B; a weakness to Scraggy, Mienfoo and Croagunk is a really let down but its good qualities are more than its weakness. Both have SpD and Def to survive mixed 'Crow assaults. None of them have reliable recovery but they can wall special attackers in A and S ranks like Missy, Snover, Lileep, Magnemite and beyond. They both can boost their Defense and power up its offense; and can shuffle the team to prevent setting up on them... I can understand the weakness may be glaring but a Pokemon is not ONE weakness. Then again, for that very reason, Lileep could be C and Bronzor could be A. The weakness/resistance to fighting types shouldn't be the reason a pokemon can't go in higher tiers.
In my opinion that fits Lickitung perfectly. Notable niche, but requires a crapload of support.C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.