Personally, I'm fine with using Hidden Power Ice (I am aware of the mere 60 base power!) to smack Landorus-T, Gliscor and Tangrowth as they switch into Close Combat.
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Pokémon Lucario
- Thread starter Subject 18
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Again I'm not even advocating Iron Tail as I haven't tested it yet myself, my entire post was @ your incredibly close minded statement. You didn't post any logic or evidence supporting your stance, you just stated a complete fallacy, and now act like me paraphrasing what you meant changes anything. You made a ridiculous claim and ended it with 'period', so I explained why it was silly to try and argue like that, then paraphrased you. I also don't see why the statistical hyperbole is disgusting at all. Who cares if your statement ignores 99% or 90% or 85%, the point I was making was clearly that you can't just look at things in such a ridiculous vacuum, which is exactly what you were doing.
This all boils down to: you made a claim that was un-constructive to a discussion of Iron Tail vs no Iron Tail then wrote 'period' at the end of it like you proved something. If you had just posted anything remotely similar to your previous post that would've been helpful. After what you posted I even agree that Iron Tail is not something I would think is worth it because just like you I feel Lucarios biggest problem is 4MSS as it is.
This all boils down to: you made a claim that was un-constructive to a discussion of Iron Tail vs no Iron Tail then wrote 'period' at the end of it like you proved something. If you had just posted anything remotely similar to your previous post that would've been helpful. After what you posted I even agree that Iron Tail is not something I would think is worth it because just like you I feel Lucarios biggest problem is 4MSS as it is.
The big issue here is what also hindered NP Cario in earlier generations: lack of a good priority move. The only thing that gets remotely close to the awesome Espeed and Bpunch is Vacuum Wave. And then the 4MSS kicks in as you would need to run either a fully special set or a mixed attacker without boosting moves.
Solutions to that need to be found in team compostition, as that MLucario set needs Sticky Web and Paralysis support to work properly. When it does get a boost, it does kill stuff but you need the right teammates to do well.
tl;dr: lack of good priority hurts so it is a more teamdependent sweeper.
I prefer either Swords Dance / Close Combat / Crunch / Extreme Speed or Swords Dance / Close Combat / Crunch / Ice Punch.
I've found that Crunch on Lucario is way too important to pass up, but Landorus-T is common enough to warrant Ice Punch. ESpeed is generally used over Ice Punch since Lucario's base 112 speed still isn't quite enough, and it +2 Espeed OHKOs Talonflame at 50% (thanks SR) so it all depends on what you want Lucario to do and your support (like Sticky Web makes Ice Punch more viable than if you don't since ESpeed is still pretty important to Lucario).
EDIT: I've tested Iron Tail (over Crunch when I did) and it sucked. There aren't enough Fairy-types to warrant Lucario waste a move slot using Iron Tail. Especially since you can just use Scizor or Genesect or another steel-type to make Fairy's manageable. Iron Tail does get Adaptability, but usually the only steel-type attack you'll want to use on it is Bullet Punch for MegaGengar (and I'm not sure +2 can OHKO after SR since I've never risked that yet, and Crunch has always served me better with Aegislash everywhere).
Mixed Luke was unheard of in gens past due to the obscene power of Swords Dance, but now that Luke actually has a speed stat worth bragging about, he can consider passing up on his weak priority moves to take initiative the old-fashioned way: coming in on something slower and DARING switch-ins.
My theory set happens to be NP/HJK/Flash Cannon/undecided w/252 SpA, 252 Spe Naive atm, and boy is it looking good:
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 480-566 (114.28 - 134.76%)
0 EV Hi Jump Kick vs Mixed Wall Hippowdon: 53.33 - 62.85%
+2 252 SpA Adaptability (custom) Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Reuniclus: 420-496 (99.05 - 116.98%)
The right idea was there with Iron Tail in taking advantage of Luke's Steel STAB, but IMO, this is the best way to do it.
My theory set happens to be NP/HJK/Flash Cannon/undecided w/252 SpA, 252 Spe Naive atm, and boy is it looking good:
+2 252 SpA Adaptability Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hippowdon: 480-566 (114.28 - 134.76%)
0 EV Hi Jump Kick vs Mixed Wall Hippowdon: 53.33 - 62.85%
+2 252 SpA Adaptability (custom) Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Reuniclus: 420-496 (99.05 - 116.98%)
The right idea was there with Iron Tail in taking advantage of Luke's Steel STAB, but IMO, this is the best way to do it.
Holy shit, I guess I know what set I'm running. Flash Cannon has never looked so intimidating.
No love for a special set?
Lucario @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpAtk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Aura Sphere / Vacuum Wave
- Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Nasty Plot
I've been testing out this setup on showdown for a bit, it could probably use some work, but it's effective in the surprise factor. Everyone is running CC, BP Lucario, so no one sees the special coming. The damage output isn't on par with a CC, but it's a little better at surviving since it isn't nuking it's own defenses.
Lucario @ Lucarionite
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 SpAtk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
- Aura Sphere / Vacuum Wave
- Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Nasty Plot
I've been testing out this setup on showdown for a bit, it could probably use some work, but it's effective in the surprise factor. Everyone is running CC, BP Lucario, so no one sees the special coming. The damage output isn't on par with a CC, but it's a little better at surviving since it isn't nuking it's own defenses.
I would like to note that it seems you can no longer breed Lucario or Riolu with Hitmonchan. So Vacuum Wave and Bullet Punch are out of the question now I believe. The only way you would be able to obtain those movesets would be to breed them in gen 5 and trade them through poke bank when it is released, assuming it doesn't erase "illegal" moves.
Protip: If the Lucario is male, and the Hitmonchan is male, they won't breed. Catch one of a different gender, then try again. I know, there's no way you could've known that!
As it turns out, I've been breeding Riolus on my 3DS today, so I decided to make an account and comment. In game, Riolu can indeed learn/inherit Bullet Punch from Hitmonchan. However, much to my disappointment, neither Ice Punch nor Thunder Punch can be learned this way.
So I'm pretty sure this already came up, but after trying to read through all the bitching in this thread, my head started to hurt. xD Considering how Mega Lucario has Adaptability, is Bullet Punch better than E-Speed? Also, do people think that the introduction of Fairies warrants the use of BP over E-Speed? I know that there're obviously going to be a lot of opinions on this matter. Personally, I'm still using E-Speed as its held me through all of 5th generation with Lucario.
Same damage, different match-ups. Steel is seen as a generally better offensive type than Normal now, so most people recommend Bullet Punch. But really, go with what suits your team most.
In my opinion it depends on your team. Is it weak to Scarf Keldeo, TalonFlame, Starmies? Then go with Extremespeed
However, Scarf Terrakions, Greninja after Ice beam, Gengars...then Bullet Punch
What setup did you try? I've had Hitmonchan (only can be male) and Riolu & Lucario (both female) in the day care for 2-3 days each. The man you receive the egg from tells me "The two prefer to play with other Pokémon more than with each other." and according to seribii that means there is a 0% chance of an egg. I'm not new to breeding and have bred both Att and SpAtt Lucarios in previous gens. I just didn't see anyone talking about the issue I had found and figured I would post about it.
EDIT: I am not starting to think that the females I was using to breed were hacked pokemon. I got both through GTS trades and they will not breed with their male counter parts or Ditto.
EDIT2: I figured out the rest of the problem: I forgot you cannot breed Hitmonchan with Riolu, so it seems that only the Lucario I received was corrupted somehow. Oh well. Back to breading I go. :D Sorry about the confusion guys. Glad everyone was so helpful.
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A few things to say about breeding and then we go back to the actual topic, which is Lucario's competitive usefullness.
Yes, it is possible to get Crunch and Bullet Punch on a Riolu. Heck, if you want it, you can get FOUR egg moves on a Riolu. First of all, let me state that Riolu is considered a 'baby Pokémon'. Therefore it can't breed. You need a female Lucario to breed egg moves. Now, the easiest way to get Egg Moves on Riolu is by looking at the Field Egg Group. Why? Because Smeargle is in that Egg Group.
Why breed Lucario with a Hitmonchan? Why not get all egg moves onto a male smeargle and breed them on a riolu that way? That is how i got Bullet Punch and Crunch on Luke.
Back to the Espeed/BP debate, I completely agree with Takion. Which priority you use is completely dependent on the team (or the teams weaknesses).
One more thing though, how do you get these moves on Smeargle? Where are you finding the opponents to sketch?
This really should go into "Ask a Simple Question" over in the casual forums. But... here's your answer: http://www.smogon.com/ingame/guides/how_to_sketch#double
Personally, I used the Double Battle Meal at Restaurant Le Nah in Lumiose City to get the desired moves on Smeargle. I made sure my Smeargle was at level 20 close to levelling up to 21. I partnered him with Hitmonchan who used Bullet Punch on the first turn and then proceeded to sketch it to learn the move. At some point later on once Smeargle levels up and learns Sketch again at level 21, I then used it on my level 100 Tyrantrum who had Crunch.
I didn't particularly care about completing the battles in the specified amount of turns, but it is the easiest method I have found.
Mixed Lucario instantly became my favorite set after 3 battles testing it. It's great.
Note that you will get heat from other players for running both HJK and Nasty Plot, both of which people think are subpar options on Lucario.
But seriously, though. If you don't care about that (I don't), give Mixed a try. It can OHKO Latios with a +2 Dark Pulse.
Note that you will get heat from other players for running both HJK and Nasty Plot, both of which people think are subpar options on Lucario.
But seriously, though. If you don't care about that (I don't), give Mixed a try. It can OHKO Latios with a +2 Dark Pulse.
Does HJK get specific KOs over CC?
I'm not certain, but I like HJK since I don't lose my DEF. It makes Lucario less susceptible to revenge KOs.
I also forgot to mention, Mixed Lucario baits Aegislash like nothing else.
I also forgot to mention, Mixed Lucario baits Aegislash like nothing else.
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In my experience with my Blaziken, HJK loves to miss at the most inopportune times. I think he'll be just as susceptible to revenge KO's when your health drops to 50%, unless you get lucky.
Hi Jump Kick is basically just inviting the opponent to switch in a ghost type or Protect user, letting them play some pretty deadly mindgames with you. The prominence of Gengar and Aegislash doesn't help at all. The extra base power is definitely not worth it, and Lucario's frail defenses and access to priority means that Close Combat's side effects really won't bother it.
The thing is that his mixed NP set has no priority. I do think CC is the better option as HJK's accuracy together with ghost types and protecting moves is too much of a hindrance.
Field notes using Mixed Lucario.
It has a very hard time setting up - lots of things stay in on it and attack figuring they are about to be OHKOd anyway, and they end up KOing Luke instead. It's a pleasant surprise for your opponent, and you look like an ass who got greedy.
It has a very hard time setting up - lots of things stay in on it and attack figuring they are about to be OHKOd anyway, and they end up KOing Luke instead. It's a pleasant surprise for your opponent, and you look like an ass who got greedy.
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