Honestly tho, Earthquake has it's advantages to. It deals with (most) Fire types and Ground types who Lucario is weak to, while Crunch doesn't do SE damage to them. It depends really. If you are not running a ground type, Earthquake is especially handy to. Plus things that avoid EQ shouldn't really switch in on Luke at the risk of Lucario setting up (I would think?))
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Pokémon Lucario
- Thread starter Subject 18
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Shroomisaur
Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
Lucario outspeeds and KO's most Fire-types with Close Combat anyway, so EQ isn't really necessary. It's nice for Aegislash, but I would always run Crunch on Lucario to KO Gengar and deal with Trevenant & Gourgeist, who otherwise wall you entirely. It's also needed post-bank for Jellicent, Celebi, the Lati twins, and many others.
I know, and I use crunch to(I posted the moveset of my lucario on the previous page) I'm just saying, that Earthquake is still Viable.
Yep the toss up would be between Crunch and Ice punch rather than EQ, seeing as Ice punch hits all of those guys almost as hard as Crunch with the exception of Gengar (where Crunch is clearly superior for guaranteeing the OHKO) and Jellicent (where Crunch is also obviously superior, but Jellicent is pretty uncommon nowadays), Crunch also hits the likes of Jirachi and Metagross harder (which to be fair, EQ does as well). Everyone else is hit similarly hard with both options. Ice punch has the advantage of handling Gliscor, Lando-T and the quad-weak dragons much better than Crunch does which is a pretty significant point in its favour now that Mega-Lucario has the speed to take advantage of it. Skarmory is not a consideration when CC hits much harder than Crunch anyway, and it's unlikely you're going to be staying in hitting it on anything other than the switch so the defense drop doesn't matter.
Overall, I'd lean towards Ice punch at the moment because Lando-T is God damn everywhere and switches in on Lucario all the fucking time, while Jirachi, Metagross and Jellicent are all dying in popularity. Of course it's a matter of team composition, but Ice Punch definitely seems more valuable atm in a vacuum.
I actually think a SD-less late game cleaner/wallbreaker set has its uses. Lucario struggles to find opportunities to SD. Good players will do anything in their power, including saccing Pokemon to prevent your set up and the frail Lucario sometimes even finds Mega-evolving a chore to complete. Adaptability CC coming off 145 base attack hurts plenty without a damage boost, and in my experience, Lucario shines Late game with its switch-ins weakened, where it can just come in, and fire off 240BP CCs until the cows come home, ala Specs Latios.
Crunch is nice for things like aegislash, gengar.
ice punch is nice for the likes of gliscor (pokebank).
I wouldn't worry too much about jirachi as it's almost non-existent.
As for metagross, adaptability+close combat already does enough so i do think crunch or ice punch is a much better coverage move.
ice punch is nice for the likes of gliscor (pokebank).
I wouldn't worry too much about jirachi as it's almost non-existent.
As for metagross, adaptability+close combat already does enough so i do think crunch or ice punch is a much better coverage move.
Mega-Venusaur and Gyarados are as close to universal Mega-Luke counters as they come, due to their access to status and Earthquake. Psychic / Zen Headbutt or Stone Edge / Thunderpunch are not very common on Mega-Lukes.
Moltres is another universal counter to (Mega) Lucario and probably the best one, as unlike Mega Venusaur and Gyarados it can OHKO Mega Lucario even if Mega Lucario doesn't use Close Combat. 252 HP / 40 Def is all it needs to avoid the OHKO from even +2 Adamant Mega Lucario's Close Combat, and the rest of the EVs should be put to SpD as Moltres is better suited for taking special hits. Of course Moltres is gonna need some good anti-SR support, so Excadrill and Empoleon are good partners and both have great defensive synergy with Moltres.
the problem is moltres is very one dimensional and easily walled by something like heatran or pretty much any special wall. So it isn't costing mega lucario anything by simply switching out. gyarados and venusaur are much better counters because they can setup, inflict status, and are much more unpredictable in general.
Yeah I thought about bulky Volcarona for that as well. As you said, SR needs to be kept off though.
The only Gyarados set that is able to counter Mega Lucario is the defensive one with RestTalk. Other sets are too easy to wear down as they have no recovery. Also, Moltres is not easy to switch in, or at least not easier than Gyarados, as the combo of Flamethrower, Toxic, and SubRoost cannot be countered by many Pokemon. Yes, Heatran walls Moltres, but offensive sets are stalled out and beaten by Moltres, and the same is true about defensive sets without Roar. Also, having counters doesn't mean its easy to switch in, most of the Pokemon in OU have counters but many of them are not easy to switch in at all.
You can switch in defensive moltres to lucario and survive, provided you switch the first opportunity you get after lucario gets on the battlefield. 2 close combats will not KO and neither will SD+CC, everything else lucario runs is weaker bar rare stuff like stone edge and thunder punch. The tricky part is finding time to Roost up so you can keep moltres for the rest of the match, you can do it if you predict Lucario to switch but obviously one of you is going to mispredict there sooner or later. I guess the best way to make sure moltres wins is to roost until either Lucario runs out of close combat PP or the opponent gives you a free turn by using SD or switching, then no matter what either Lucario dies or you get to leave on full HP. If Luc uses SD (this includes if it uses SD as you switch in) you can roast the Lucario, since you'll survive the +2 CC barring a crit, or Luc will switch out and you'll be at full health to switch out yourself and retry later.
Just went up against a Gourgeist-Super today. At Jolly 252 I wasn't even getting 3HKOs with Crunch. That wasn't fun at all.
what? you get intimidated and do pitiful not very effective damage, then you are forced to switch out or risk dying to an earthquake variant gyarados. Or he will get a free sub, or a free dragon dance, etc. That is what makes gyarados a dangerous switch in. Moltres comes in, lucario leaves and puts out blissey/heatran/vaporeon/etc (the multitiude of popular special walls in the tier) and moltres is forced out. At best you were lucky enough to have no SR on the field, and at worse you just got chunked and have to roost and get out again. What good is your counter to mega lucario if it also needs to have SR off the field, you can't guarantee that. there's so many reasons I go on about why moltres is in UU for a reason
I think you're missing the point here: just because Moltres is placed in a lower tier and has arguably more switch-ins, doesn't make it any less of a counter to MegaLuke than say Gyara or Mega-Venu. Moltres loses to special walls, Gyara loses to things like Rotom-W and Roar Vaporeon, they all have their problems. If you wanna describe a worst case scenario, why not apply the same to Gyarados, which the DD variant has less bulk (than RestTalk), no reliable recovery and would not be able to check (not even counter at this point) boosted MegaLuke more than once? Having less than stellar matchups against the rest of the tier does not diminish the effectiveness of a counter to a specific threat: just look at lower-tier Sableye, who manhandles Kanga but loses to pretty much every Fire-type. (inb4 bad example)
For the record, SubToxic Moltres is a nightmare / annoyance for all but Heatran to switch into, I shit you not.
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If you predict Lucario using CC the turn it goes Mega, swapping into Intimidate Gyarados will force it out.
-1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 114-135 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- 1.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
248 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 354-418 (125.5 - 148.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Alternatively, if Lucario goes Mega with a Swords Dance when you bring bulky Dos in...
+1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 257-303 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Then Mega Lucario has a decision to make: CC can KO with prior damage, SR or a crit... but the retaliatory Earthquake OHKOes if CC fails to KO.
Long story short is that so long as you bring IntimiDos in the moment (Mega) Lucario hits the field, you'll force it out. The first time, anyways. Then it depends on how smart your opponent is and whether he/she knows the above calculations.
I am not arguing that moltres isn't a counter to lucario, i am arguing that it doesn't deserve a spot on your team over other counters because of how high maintenance it is and how easily/prevalent it is countered. Gyarados is more useful in pretty much every scenario except those that you need fire moves in purely due to intimidate.
RockStarFish I dont understand your post since I am arguing that gyarados is a great counter to lucario. your calc doesn't even have him at 248HP and he still takes a 3HKO, pretty amazing.
This is more or less exactly where I was getting at. Moltres may be a bit higher maintanence, but Gyara doesn't mind the presence of Stealth Rock any less than Moltres when it comes to checking threats. Arguing that Gyara is better in any scenario that Moltres fares well in is simply untrue, as Gyarados does not have reliable recovery nor access to Pressure which can stall out Hydro Pumps and Stone Edges. And that's for RestTalk Gyara too; I noticed you keep going on about SubDD Gyara, which isn't even comparable in roles with Moltres anymore. Fully countering SubToxic Moltres without Heatran isn't a particularly easy task either, so it still has some place in OU, arguably even more so considering the (slightly) greater ease in removing SR.
I gotta ask, other than dealing with this Mega, what can Moltres DO in OU that it doesn't get outclassed by other fire types?
25% of your HP is quite a big difference, and wish exists for a reason if your playing a pivot team. you don't need reliable recovery on such a team. Who's coming in on chansey/blissey? Lucario. who are you passing that wish to? Gyarados. So it all works out.
Oh, I dunno, probably something I haven't mentioned at least twice already.
SubToxic. This is hair-tearing potential right here, even moreso than SwagKey imo. Ya know, like Gliscor except Fire.
To each his own. I was simply addressing your statement of how 'Gyara is better than Moltres in nearly every scenario'.
My issue with Moltres is that your spinner/defogger isn't guaranteed to kill the rocks. It might be blocked, taunted, or killed before it does its job and it only takes one use of rocks to drop Motres down to 50%. It's gonna be hard pressed to sub then. Plus subs are weak to roar as well as Mega-Kang. Don't forget infiltrator Novern either.
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 259-305 (80.6 - 95%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 297-351 (92.5 - 109.3%)
Both of these are OHKOs after sub damage. These might not be the most common things around, but you need to remember that subs are not an end-all to damage.
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 259-305 (80.6 - 95%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 297-351 (92.5 - 109.3%)
Both of these are OHKOs after sub damage. These might not be the most common things around, but you need to remember that subs are not an end-all to damage.
The calcs are incorrect since they are using a Moltres uninvested in any sort of bulk. Moltres needs 248 HP / 40 Def to avoid a OHKO from +2 Adamant Close Combat. Thus...
252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 278-329 (72.58 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 321-378 (83.81 - 98.69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And that's not even considering any EVs thrown into SDef.
im really disappointed that lucario doesnt have a stronger physical steel type move like iron head. even with adaptability, bullet punch still does meagre damage and can only 2hko togekiss which can answer back with flamethrower.
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