Metagame Mega Evolution in Sun & Moon

[Colorbaaars test]

Damn, with this buff, I miss Diancite, Beedrilite, Pidgeotite, Banetite and Lopunnite...

I wish that GF will find a way to resolve this problem. Anyway, I've been using Pinsir and it's amazing tbh! Glalie is a great surprise too.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Ugh... I'm only saying that the reason for GF controlling Pokémon availability of Pokémon almost always has to do with marketing-- controlling buzz and excitement for the game. Keeping people engaged longer. Doing events.

Though some limitations may have been made to shape the VGC competitive experience and highlight some new Pokémon, those decisions also have at their core-- marketing.

Also I didn't really make a post to respond to any particular user.

It just seemed that many users were confused by limited mega availability. Those limitations make sense in the context of business.

If they were controlling hype then Mega Evolution as a whole wouldn't be in the game. Marketing clearly isn't a thing here: it's common sense.

 

[MechaKnight16]

So I've been noticing people slapping Thunder Punch unto Zard Y... really? Ditching Roost, sure Zard Y can survive the lack of Roost but giving it a Hasty nature means that it will be very frail. Curious though why no one brings up Hidden Power Electric when it dishes approx. the same amount of damage as a Hasty nature ThunderPunch does if not slightly better. The only case in which ThunderPunch beats HP Electric is when it concerns Mantine, but in the case of other bulky Water-types like Pelipper and Toxapex you can just run HP Electric without sacrificing the small amount of physical bulk Zard Y has in the first place.

It's not marketing, it's common sense.
Ok where did you get the idea of marketing in the first place? I never even mentioned it.

Why waste valuable BP you could be using to prepare for the VGC Internationals (note it's Game Freak here, so VGC applies and not Smogon) when you could be using it to get the Mega Stones that are actually usable? The thing is, even if the Mega Stones were in the game at this moment, how would you use them? You couldn't, as you can't get the Pokemon either. In short, you wouldn't even buy them, as they are basically useless items at this moment in time.

So why would you add Mega Stones for Pokemon you can't even get? It's a really simple answer: you wouldn't. Obviously they would be available when Bank is out.

Why would you add support items for Pokemon you can't even get in the first place? *Looks at the Sinnoh Orbs you can get, the Primal Orbs and the Genesect drivers*
I am fairly confident GameFreak will bring back the other Mega Stones somehow, anyway, or it would be a complete waste of graphical resources --- but they could have easily added the Mega Stones in the game regardless.

 

[Plague von Karma]

Why would you add support items for Pokemon you can't even get in the first place? *Looks at the Sinnoh Orbs you can get, the Primal Orbs and the Genesect drivers*
I am fairly confident GameFreak will bring back the other Mega Stones somehow, anyway, or it would be a complete waste of graphical resources --- but they could have easily added the Mega Stones in the game regardless.

The thing is, the Sinnoh and Primal Orbs were added to the Antique Store (with a warning no less) so Magearna could be released early to rack up hype for the movie. To me, it makes some mild sense. As for Genesect, well, you don't have to pay for the drivers, so it seems justified.

 

[iNuclearCreeper]

Most of the mega left were ones I often used but I miss my mega Ampharos but I'm curious to see how many megas will be available after bank comes out and this will heavily effect the meta game

 

[Damian_Grey]

Personally, I am happy that most of the mega evolutions were cut from Sun & Moon, and I don't want any more added. The less mega evolutions there are in the tier, the better imo. Mega evolution made team matchup a much bigger problem. Because you can only use one mega per team, and because most megas are ridiculously strong, the mega evolution you pick plays a huge role in what your team is weak to or strong against.

For example, suppose you are using Mega Gardevoir and your opponent is using Mega Sableye - congratulations!! You are now at a huge advantage because the mega you are using beats the mega that they are using. But suppose instead that you are using Mega Gardevoir but your opponent is using Mega Metagross. Well, now you're at a pretty big disadvantage. Of course, you could run other team members to help you deal with M-Metagross, but you can't use a second mega. You can only pick one mega, and whichever one you pick is gonna have a huge impact on how your team matches up against other teams.

Team matchup is always gonna have an influence in Pokemon, but mega evolution took the team matchup problem and made it way worse. I am already liking this metagame way more than ORAS OU and the lack of megas is a big reason why.

 

[LeNorm]

Mawilite and Beedrillite will be in the game, coming February (http://www.serebii.net/index2.shtml)!

 

[Firebird101]

Mega Beedrill looks fun but shouldn't be all that much different from last gen although it definitely appreciates having room for 4 attacks.

Mega Mawile should shake things quite a bit. It has monstrously high attack, strong priority in sucker punch and excellent typing both defensively and offensively and I feel it may give Meg Metagross a run for it's money as the top mega. Sucker Punch might though not be as excellent priority as it used to be though, not just because of the slight nerf but also because I feel there are more things resisting Sucker Punch like Pheromosa (dies after SD tho) and the Tapu's, Greninja, not to mention Lele outright invaliding priority for few turns. Fire types are also fairly popular and EQ practically omnipresent at this point so no team should ever run out of ways to kill Mawile. Regardless it still hits ridiculously hard and there are extremely few pokemon who ever want to switch into this thing, especially since it has surprisingly good coverage. It can have a slight 4mss but a simple set with SD, Play Rough, Sucker Punch and a 4th attack of your choice should always be scary for the opponent to face. This is the mon that made WoW Tran/ZardY a thing in XY so it should be terrifying fun to see it performing in OU again ^_^

 

[TURBODERP]

Mega Beedrill is pretty unhappy about Pheromosa running around, but still should find a niche since it doesn't need to run Protect anymore.

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

Imo Pheromosa just straight up outclass Bee.

 

[pika pal]

I think there's still a place for Beedrill, if only in the mid B-ranks this gen. Besides the speed increase freeing up a moveslot for it (Protect has some merit for Scouting Choice mons, but is not mandatory) to improve its coverage, Fairy types have gained a lot of ground this gen, and Beedrill can beat all of the Tapus one on one thanks to STAB Poison Jab, while being able to outspeed Tapu Koko naturally and OHKO (or 2HKO in the case of an unscratched Physical Tapu Fini) them all, meaning there's little pressure to hit them on the switch to win out. A fast Knock Off has value when Beedrill outspeeds anything below Positive Base 80 w/ Scarf and as is the general case, items are a big indicator of the opponent's set for scouting, and he makes Ash-Greninja much more dependent on Water Shuriken until it dies, which is a very tricky move to rely on for Ash-Ninja given its relatively low power as a move (and as a mon before transforming) even on the Specs set.

I could see a place for it given it has a bit more initial power than non-item Pheromosa with Adaptability, and it's thus better played as a scout or hit and run attacker than Pheromosa's tendency towards sweeping/cleaning overall. Knock Off, a stronger U-Turn(without Choice Locking), and STAB Poison Jab to function more as an offense rather than a prediction reliant coverage option are factors that might make it worth consideration for some teams. Pheromosa might often be a better fit, but I'm not yet of the opinion there's no place for Mega Bee.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I decided to compare Beedrill and Pheromosa side by side, and here are my results.

Beedrill has more raw power, due to its higher attack stat and Adaptability. It also has marginally more physical bulk and almost twice the special bulk of Pheromosa. However, while Beedrill is very fast, Pheromosa is faster, can hold an item, is not a mega, and has much higher special attack.
0 Atk Mew Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Beedrill: 219-258 (80.8 - 95.2%)
0 Atk Mew Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 231-272 (81.6 - 96.1%)
0 SpA Mew Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Beedrill: 130-153 (47.9 - 56.4%)
0 SpA Mew Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pheromosa: 231-272 (81.6 - 96.1%)

Both Beedrill's and Pheromosa's main Bug attack is U-Turn, but they both have a few others. Beedrill has X-Scissor for extra Bug power, Pin Missile to break potential Sashes, and Fell Stinger to give a HUGE power boost after killing something. Pheromosa has Bug Buzz, which is a special attack, and Lunge, which can weaken physical attackers.

Beedrill's only option for a Poison attack is Poison Jab, while Pheromosa has the option of High Jump Kick and Focus Blast for power, and Double Kick if you really hate Mamoswine and Smeargle (shoutout to AmShowdownNoob).

Now for coverage outside of STABs. Both Beedrill and Pheromosa have access to attacks of the other's type, with Beedrill having access to Brick Break, and Pheromosa having access to Poison Jab. Beedrill also has Dark coverage in Knock Off and Pursuit (both of which provide additional utility), Ground coverage in Drill Run, and pseudo-coverage in Endeavor. Pheromosa has Ice coverage with Ice Beam or Blizzard, as well as Hidden Power for weak but customizable coverage.

Both Beedrill and Pheromosa have limited access to boosting moves. Beedrill gets Swords Dance, Pheromosa gets Quiver Dance, and both get Agility. Swords Dance provides a larger boost in power, and Beedrill's superior bulk may let it set up more easily. However, Quiver Dance's boost to Special Defense, as well as Pheromosa's ability to hold a Sash, means that Pheromosa might actually have an easier time setting up.

As for utility options, Beedrill has access to the aforementioned Knock Off and Pursuit, as well as Toxic Spikes, Defog, and Tailwind. Pheromosa, on the other hand, has Rapid Spin and Taunt.

The different typings of Beedrill and Pheromosa lend their own defensive advantages and disadvantages. Both Beedrill and Pheromosa are weak to Fire, Flying, and Psychic, and resistant to Fighting, Bug, and Grass. Beedrill's Poison type makes it resistant to Fairy and Poison, as well as increasing its resistance to Fighting and Grass, but it nullifies Bug's resistance to Ground. Pheromosa's Fighting type make it resistant to Dark and nullifies Bug's weakness to Rock, but makes it weak to Fairy and worsens its Flying weakness.

Those are all the points I could come up with. I hope this makes discussion a bit easier.

 

[readytolose]

Fun fact: Pheromosa typically can't revenge kill Beedrill from full, since it resists Pheromosa's STAB attacks, which is kind of funny given Pheromosa's offensive prowess and Mega Beedrill's abysmal defenses. But after calcing I found that none of the attacks Pheromosa runs on any set can OHKO Mega Beedrill. This can make Pheromosa's matchup against Mega Beedrill a little awkward, as it needs to wear it down first (not usually hard but a savvy player might be able to avoid it.)

 

[nameless90]

The biggest selling point Pheromosa has over M-Beedrill is the Megastone slot.

The problem of Beast Boost is that the added boost is negated by U-turn, whereas Adaptability is far more consistent.
Type-wise they are pretty equivalent, but Pheromosa has the advantage to be neutral to SR instead of weak to this hazard move ===> pretty big for a frail monster with U-turn.
Movepool-wise Pheromosa has the possibility to run a special set or a mixed one, whereas Beedrill is stuck only to its physical side with the possibility to run some different moves (i.e. Fell Stinger, X-Scissor and so on...).

252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega U-turn vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 120-142 (33 - 39.1%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Beedrill-Mega Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 136-162 (37.4 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Pheromosa U-turn vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 126-148 (34.7 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Pheromosa U-turn vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 138-163 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Just to show the power of Adaptability Beedrill-Mega's STABs.

Generally speaking is better to play Pheromosa (as a fast U-turner) + a Mega useful in HO teams than wasting the megastone for a fast U-turner.
===> I see Pheromosa still better than M-Beedrill.

 

[Morningstar]

This is Flare Blitz Flareon again, isn't it? Another case of the buff fans had wanted and it still winds up not helping it at all?

On a related note. How well would Mawile-M fare competing with Metagross-M? Not quite as defensive, but Pure Power Steel STAB might prove to be a problem for the Tapu.

 

[Steel With It]

Another point to note is that M-Bee can break through Alolawak with Knock Off/Drill Run, while Pheromosa is countered without HP Ground/Water (which I've never seen it run).

4 SpA Life Orb Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Marowak-Alola: 66-78 (20.4 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Marowak-Alola: 101-119 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- 77.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 216-256 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Beedrill-Mega Drill Run vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 180-212 (55.7 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

EDIT: Added calcs to show the difference.

 

[Mikael]

i never get the mega slot argument. it is cause if u can't run mega metagross? or limits your teambuilding?

 

[KaioNabuco]

i never get the mega slot argument. it is cause if u can't run mega metagross? or limits your teambuilding?

It limits teambuilding because you can't use other Megas (read: other good specific Pokémon). You might end up in a situation like "oh, Charizard (for example) fits so well on this team, but I already have Beedrill..." and then reconsider if you really should use Beedrill just to come to the conclusion that you're better off using Pheromosa and Charizard.

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

i never get the mega slot argument. it is cause if u can't run mega metagross? or limits your teambuilding?

Well I wouldnt say this is 100% true, but Metagross is so powerful right now that If you play to win, yes, Mega-Metagross is the way to go Lol.

 

[Jojobobo]

Has anyone else tried Mega Metagross on an Aurora Veil team yet? From my experience, it's extremely good - everyone knows it's a bulky son-of-a-gun already and with Aurora Veil it becomes absurd. Here's a taste of the defensive bulk:

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega through Reflect: 96-114 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- 92% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega through Reflect: 105-124 (34.8 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega through Reflect: 115-136 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega through Reflect: 83-98 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

I've been running Power-Up Punch/Meteor Mash/Thunder Punch/Earthquake. Ordinarily, I would never recommend a move like Power-Up Punch, but with Aurora Veil in tow a single set-up turn with that bulk is perfectly doable - making you extremely hard to contain. Thunder Punch is there for bulky waters and, more importantly, Zard-Y who it usually OHKOes and who can be a major headache for Aurora Veil. Earthquake is there to hit steels for hard damage, like opposing Mega Metagrosses, and Meteor Mash is your obligatory STAB.

Though Ice Punch is a little missed, Intimidate doesn't work on the turn you mega evolve due to Clear Body, and then Meteor Mash can 2HKO Lando at the +1 who as demonstrated above can only 3HKO you. Against non-defense invested Lando variants, at the +1 Meteor Mash is an OHKO. Besides, if you don't have something that can set-up and take advantage of Lando on an Aurora Veil team (SubCoil Zygarde mainly) then you're not doing it right - so ice coverage is a little redundant.

It's definitely something more people should try. Here's a replay of me setting-up on Dugtrio, leading to a forfeit (personally I would have tried for the speed-tie myself before forfeiting, but each to their own): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-529429809

 

[Sulfurian]

Just out of curiousity, is a transferred mega meta gross decent with hone claws? Fixes his accuracy problems with his main STABS (unless you run iron head, lol) and gives him a nice damage increase

 

[volx757]

If they were controlling hype then Mega Evolution as a whole wouldn't be in the game. Marketing clearly isn't a thing here: it's common sense.

I mean the mega evolution hype as a whole already happened when the mechanic was introduced last gen, so from a marketing standpoint (and from a common sense standpoint), they couldn't just do the same thing again. "Oh you all know all the megas and what they do but we're gonna hold back entirely for a few months." It's a bad tactic that wouldn't have achieved what they want (which is consistent peak interest in the game, consistent playerbase, @ mentions on social, consistent $$$, etc).

Instead, they release half the stones so the playerbase has megas to play with, form metas (be it VGC or smogon or whatever), and then get a nice change injected into these metas over the course of however much time they take releasing the other stones (or entirely new stones). This is the way it's always been. All the mythical pokemon and mid-gen legendaries over the years have not been released at the start of the gen because the marketing team needs concrete game-affecting tools to keep hype up. They come out, people talk about them, people talk about pokemon, people tell their friends about them, whatever. There's also the sequel thing. GF isn't gonna blow their load at the start of a gen when there's at least 1 entirely new game to come out yet and 2-3 years to fill between now and the next set.

It's basic marketing. I also really don't understand how anger comes up here. Are you really mad at GF for simply withholding a few pokemon? There are quite literally hundreds to choose from, and at least many tens of viable ones in standard play.

Chances are GF has a much better idea of what they're doing than any of us do. They built a world and a competitive scene that all of us love, trust that they'll keep it up.

 

[Wob]

Just out of curiousity, is a transferred mega meta gross decent with hone claws? Fixes his accuracy problems with his main STABS (unless you run iron head, lol) and gives him a nice damage increase

No, it's 100% outclassed by power-up punch, which is already a niche move on mmeta in the first place. I disagree with you that Mega Metagross has "accuracy problems" with its main STABs. 90% accuracy is already perfectly good and the accuracy boost that hone claws gives doesn't make up for the lack of damage.

 

[Flarowak]

I think a lot of people in here are going to be really surprised about what Beedrill does once it's finally released again. These books are going to be huge for it, and it's going to be able to handle a lot more of the meta then it could last gen. Although I can understand the discussion about the competition from pheromosa, I still think with adaptability, a really solid speed tier and a better attack set that it will probably end up being a little different than her as far as turning goes. Although they seem like they will both handle dark and psychic types really well, Beedrill has the utility of knockoff as well as doing a better job of checking fairies

 

[ALLAN ROCK]

On a related note. How well would Mawile-M fare competing with Metagross-M? Not quite as defensive, but Pure Power Steel STAB might prove to be a problem for the Tapu.

mawile-mega hits tapus pretty well, notably securing a ko on koko and the 2hko on fini more reliably:

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 283-334 (100.7 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Metagross-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko in Electric Terrain: 272-320 (96.7 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 440-518 (127.9 - 150.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 368-434 (106.9 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 234-276 (68.2 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 192 Def Tapu Fini: 174-206 (50.7 - 60%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

i didn't include lele because it dies to anything steel they throw out

in terms of movepool, megagross has access to psychic moves, stronger steel stab and earthquake, mawile has play rough and, like, baton pass

megagross is also faster and immune to intimidate prior to going mega (mawile could theoretically be running hyper cutter prior to going mega, but intimidate seems better in most cases)