Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[New World Order]

Can I bring up what I think is an under-discussed pokemon: Blaziken.

Obviously, Blaze has been banned since it gained Speed Boost (BW if I am not mistaken), because of Speed Boost's ability to snowball, which makes it quickly able to outspeed pretty much the entire tier.

However, it hasn't been tried in the current meta as it was insta-banned. But the current meta contains quite a few pokemon that outspeed Blaze even at +1. Out of the unboosted mons, jolly/timid Blaze at +1 is outside by Phero, Mega-Zam, Mega-Aerodactyle, Mega Beedril (when it is added, later this month). Similarly, it is outsped by Ash Greninja and Tapu Koko if it lacks a speed boosting nature. Added to this, a number of common choice scarf users will easily outspeed Blaze at +1, and OHKO blaze (e.g. Tapu Lele, Landorus T, Garchomp, Latios, etc.).

This means that Blaze will still need to run protect to have even a chance of outspeeding many top tier threats. This in turn means it is very hard to fit swords dance on Blaze, which means it struggles to have enough power to sweep (120 physical attack and 110 special attack are pretty meh for OU - the same physical attack as regular Sharpedo, which has the same ability). It also doesn't have great coverage, assuming it runs Flare Blitz and High Jump Kick, which means it is countered by most of the top tier threats. Indeed, of the A+ and S ranked, only the steel types (Mega-Metagross, Celesteela, Magearna) and Tapu Koko would struggle to consistently deal with Blaziken. It does quite well against quite a few of the lower tier threats, but many of them can beat Blaze (going down the A-'s, Zygarde, Mega-Zam, Dugtrio, Keldeo, Manaphy, Rotom-W, Salamence, Mega Venusaur).

It seems to me that Blaziken is not any better than many of the A and S ranked pokemon that currently dominate the tier, and that it is at least worth a shot in OU, to see what happens. But the introduction of lots of new threats (and Greninja's return, + Ash's, and the change of water shuriken to a special move) means I think that Blaziken deserves a chance to see if it can exist as part of a healthy metagame in OU, rather than sitting unused in Ubers, without even a chance to show its potential.

Besides, Mega-Metagross needs something to balance it's dominance in OU!

Please tell me you're joking. Scolipede Baton Pass teams are strong enough as is. Adding another Speed Boost passer with vastly superior offensive potential is just asking for trouble. Plus that "120 physical attack and 110 special attack [which] are pretty meh for OU" is backed by 120/130 STABs like High Jump Kick, Flare Blitz, and Fire Blast, which blows Sharpedo's Waterfall/Crunch out of the water (pun not intended), they're not even remotely comparable. As for the so-called checks you listed. Here's some calcs with unboosted Blaziken:
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 243-289 (59.7 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 313-370 (96.9 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 199-234 (65.6 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 187-221 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Good luck getting any of them in without sacrificing a mon, in which case Blaziken's damage has already been done (not to mention all of them get obliterated after SD).

 

[Siggu]

Can I bring up what I think is an under-discussed pokemon: Blaziken.

Obviously, Blaze has been banned since it gained Speed Boost (BW if I am not mistaken), because of Speed Boost's ability to snowball, which makes it quickly able to outspeed pretty much the entire tier.

However, it hasn't been tried in the current meta as it was insta-banned. But the current meta contains quite a few pokemon that outspeed Blaze even at +1. Out of the unboosted mons, jolly/timid Blaze at +1 is outside by Phero, Mega-Zam, Mega-Aerodactyle, Mega Beedril (when it is added, later this month). Similarly, it is outsped by Ash Greninja and Tapu Koko if it lacks a speed boosting nature. Added to this, a number of common choice scarf users will easily outspeed Blaze at +1, and OHKO blaze (e.g. Tapu Lele, Landorus T, Garchomp, Latios, etc.).

This means that Blaze will still need to run protect to have even a chance of outspeeding many top tier threats. This in turn means it is very hard to fit swords dance on Blaze, which means it struggles to have enough power to sweep (120 physical attack and 110 special attack are pretty meh for OU - the same physical attack as regular Sharpedo, which has the same ability). It also doesn't have great coverage, assuming it runs Flare Blitz and High Jump Kick, which means it is countered by most of the top tier threats. Indeed, of the A+ and S ranked, only the steel types (Mega-Metagross, Celesteela, Magearna) and Tapu Koko would struggle to consistently deal with Blaziken. It does quite well against quite a few of the lower tier threats, but many of them can beat Blaze (going down the A-'s, Zygarde, Mega-Zam, Dugtrio, Keldeo, Manaphy, Rotom-W, Salamence, Mega Venusaur).

And what's stopping it from getting into +2?

Heck, what's stopping it from running this?

Hide

Blaziken @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- High Jump Kick
- Flare Blitz
- Protect

What can switch into this? You can even add Tapu Lele support and it's impossible to revenge kill at +2 outside of Focus Sash mons (or 123+ base Speed Scarfers, which is like using Scarf Greninja to beat Mega Salamence in ORAS).

195 BP All-Out Pummeling allows it to 2HKO even physically defensive Toxapex after rocks at +2 with a combination of that move and Flare Blitz, if thinks it can wall you. You can safely Swords Dance in front of it as it can take an Scald.

If anything, it's better now because priority took a huge hit with Tapu Lele's dominance and Talonflame's nerf, which were the two best tools to try to take it down.

It's not Pheromosa. It can actually OHKO things without super-effective moves. Its STABs don't have redundant resists.

 

[AM]

There was already minor discussion of it here in this thread for more details.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/blaziken.3568822/

Granted the thread was an april fools joke but that should sum it up why it is not being allowed. Balancing tiers by dropping stuff down is already bad as is. Regardless this is stuff you would ask the council and not get into a long unproductive debate in a thread not designed ever to bring stuff down from ubers.

 

[LeNorm]

Please tell me you're joking. Scolipede Baton Pass teams are strong enough as is. Adding another Speed Boost passer with vastly superior offensive potential is just asking for trouble. Plus that "120 physical attack and 110 special attack [which] are pretty meh for OU" is backed by 120/130 STABs like High Jump Kick, Flare Blitz, and Fire Blast, which blows Sharpedo's Waterfall/Crunch out of the water (pun not intended), they're not even remotely comparable. As for the so-called checks you listed. Here's some calcs with unboosted Blaziken:
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 243-289 (59.7 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 313-370 (96.9 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 199-234 (65.6 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Thick Fat Venusaur-Mega: 187-221 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Good luck getting any of them in without sacrificing a mon, in which case Blaziken's damage has already been done (not to mention all of them get obliterated after SD).

I don't quite understand the relevance of many of these calcs - Zygarde, Manaphy, Keldeo (which outspeeds with a scarf, so the OHKO Blazike is capable of is not so important), and Rotom-W all OHKO Blaziken with water/ground stabs that they carry anyway.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be good, but that an instaban was premature given the amount of counters it has.

 

[Egyptianmego5]

Let's first wait for the metagame to be more stable before we discuss stuff dropping from ubers.

 

[pika pal]

I don't quite understand the relevance of many of these calcs - Zygarde, Manaphy, Keldeo (which outspeeds with a scarf, so the OHKO Blazike is capable of is not so important), and Rotom-W all OHKO Blaziken with water/ground stabs that they carry anyway.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be good, but that an instaban was premature given the amount of counters it has.

The relevance is that this is an unboosted Blaziken. If Blaziken SD's on the switch into these things, it OHKO's them outright, at minimum needing rocks to ensure that, meaning their ability to OHKO Blaziken is rendered moot when he'll outspeed and beat them on their first turn in no matter what they do (either OHKO at +2 or 2HKO with two +0 hits). For a mon to check Blaziken, it has to avoid a 2HKO off of a SD boosted hit, from a mon with 120/130 BP STABs and Base 120 offenses, plus an ability that can run an Adamant nature.

The moment I saw this line, your mind didn't seem in the right place with regards to Blaziken

"Besides, Mega-Metagross needs something to balance it's dominance in OU!"

If that's an issue, we suspect Metagross, not drop a centralizing Ubers battering ram to try and shift the metagame control onto that (I say as someone who would vote no ban if it's suspected)

 

[Egyptianmego5]

Speaking of stuff dropping from ubers, what does the OU council right now think of the meta and how stable is it, are they planning a suspect test in their mind or are they waiting to see how will the Meta advance with the addition of MBeedrill and MMawile?

 

[pika pal]

Anything that didn't start banned (Mawilite I believe is OU legal right now, if not available) is allowed to be in the metagame for a period of time before suspects are discussed.

 

[Egyptianmego5]

I'm not talking about suspecting Mawillite and whatnot, I'm talking about suspecting the stuff broken in the current meta, I'm asking if there's something on the radar right now....

 

[psVoltage]

I'm not talking about suspecting Mawillite and whatnot, I'm talking about suspecting the stuff broken in the current meta, I'm asking if there's something on the radar right now....

Metagross is pretty dumb right now, the mega buff pushes it over the edge.

 

[Egyptianmego5]

Metagross is pretty dumb yeah, but I was wondering if the OU council agrees.

 

[Mikael]

i would meta mega metagross and landorus-T are the problematic ones rn. maybe protean greninja could cause havok on the future, too

 

[Photofluid]

Anything that didn't start banned (Mawilite I believe is OU legal right now, if not available) is allowed to be in the metagame for a period of time before suspects are discussed.

There are a couple of megas that have never been unbanned and I don't think anyone will miss M-Lucario and M-Salamance.

I am curious if Mega-Kang would drop though as it just received a not insignificant nerf and I don't think the council foresaw this when they did the initial unbans.

I am also curious if Aegislash and Genesect would start off legal next gen as many people(me included) probably want them to stay before they they know they should not, and there are got to be a meta where they are actually balanced. (For Genesect it means another bulky fire like Heatran. While for Aegislash, it would help a lot if GF make King's Shield drop one stage instead, 2 stages are just stupidly crippling)

 

[Dragontamer]

I am curious if Mega-Kang would drop though as it just received a not insignificant nerf and I don't think the council foresaw this when they did the initial unbans.

What nerf is that?

Does Seismic Toss still hit twice for 200HP? Bulky Wish Seismic Toss Mega-Kang was ridiculous, and required counterplay that was grossly different than standard All-out-attacker Khan.

 

[Egyptianmego5]

Yep it still hits for 200HP, anyway let's not discuss uber pokemon dropping to ou because the meta is still unstable.

I don't think lando-t is banworthy Mikael, it is manageable af.

 

[Ema Skye]

The Parental Bond nerf doesn't matter as long as Kangaskhan has Seismic Toss in its moveset. It's never coming back.

I highly doubt Lando-T will get a suspect though I feel like it's only a matter of time before we have one for MegaGross.

 

[Morningstar]

Why is MegaGross popular anyway? is it because its a Tapu check (in this case I suspect the two prize megas to fill that niche, especially Mawile)? s it suppose to check Intimidate users? Is it used as a Poor Man's Solgaleo?

 

[Dragontamer]

Why is MegaGross popular anyway? is it because its a Tapu check (in this case I suspect the two prize megas to fill that niche, especially Mawile)? s it suppose to check Intimidate users? Is it used as a Poor Man's Solgaleo?

700BST and Tough Claws goes a long way. Tapu Lele helps MegaGross in multiple ways. As a partner, MegaGross gets +50% damage on Zen Headbutt. As an opponent, MegaGross is one of the best Lele checks.

Remember that your typical Uber (ex: Mewtwo) is only 680BST. MegaGross can simultaneously threaten a sweep with 110 Speed while also serving as a pivot. Nothing else has as much defense, power, and speed combined.

Still, MegaGross has 4MSS and gets checked hard by... something... depending on what coverage moves its missing. Bulky Scizor, Celesteela, Skarmory, Slowbro, Mandibuzz all check. Its clearly an edge-case and probably worth a suspect test. But its not really clear if its banworthy IMO.

 

[Egyptianmego5]

MegaGross hits very hard with its stabs in addition to tough claws, it 2hkos almost every pokemon that doesn't resist its stabs, and its wide variety of coverage moves allow it to pick its counters, with only one true counter to it that can counter every common moveset (Except HP fire lol) which is scizor, which is a little medicore in the current metagame not to mention it can be trapped by magne-Zone
Add to that nice synergy with tapu lele and Pheromosa, a very nice speed tier, a lot of fairies running around, cool defensive typing and nice bulk and you get a very strong pokemon for OU.
It was going to get banned last gen but it stayed in ou after a very close vote, now with the mega buff so that metagross gains its mega speed on the turn it mega evolves meaning no more protect etc and it being a lot better in the meta making it a suspect candidate

 

[LeNorm]

Why is MegaGross popular anyway? is it because its a Tapu check (in this case I suspect the two prize megas to fill that niche, especially Mawile)? s it suppose to check Intimidate users? Is it used as a Poor Man's Solgaleo?

It's popular as it checks many of the other top threats (inc. the tapus), and can run a variety of moves, which gives it great versatility (though it most commonly runs one set, it could change that slightly and take out many of its checks/counters).

It has very high attack (often boosted by a very good ability), good speed, a good defensive typing, and excellent bulk for a fast/attacking pokemon.

In other words, it is one of the few pokemon that has an excellent offensive and defensive presence in the tier, and checks a lot of top threats. This makes it a very versatile pokemon that can fit into most teams, and always has to be taken into account.

 

[Dragontamer]

MegaGross hits very hard with its stabs in addition to tough claws, it 2hkos almost every pokemon that doesn't resist its stabs, and its wide variety of coverage moves allow it to pick its counters, with only one true counter to it that can counter every common moveset (Except HP fire lol) which is scizor

Mandibuzz doesn't care about Thunderpunch / Ice Punch.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 162-192 (38.2 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 236-282 (78.4 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Metagross does Meteor Mash on the switch:

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 144-171 (33.9 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 217-256 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mandibuzz survives... most of the time (Two high-rolls AND +Atk hax AND Meteor Mash's 90% hit rate didn't miss)

+1 0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 356-420 (118.2 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Foul Play always OHKOs.

-------

Metagross needs a +Atk hax on the switchin AND Ice Punch / Thunder Punch to 2HKO Mandibuzz. So Mandibuzz is quite a safe switchin.

Since the +Atk hax makes Mandibuzz OHKO Metagross, you can safely Roost until Metagross gets +Atk Hax then Foul Play.

 

[Ash Borer]

I don't quite understand the relevance of many of these calcs - Zygarde, Manaphy, Keldeo (which outspeeds with a scarf, so the OHKO Blazike is capable of is not so important), and Rotom-W all OHKO Blaziken with water/ground stabs that they carry anyway.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be good, but that an instaban was premature given the amount of counters it has.

No it wasnt premature. We tested Blaziken in XY. It was so overpowered it was banmed before mega gengar. The Pokemon is utterly impossible to handle and beyond overpowered. Mega Lucario would be much more fair to play against. You do not want blaziken in the tier. It hits way, way too hard for how fast it is.

 

[Egyptianmego5]

snip

I said *almost*, the reason I didn't call mandibuzz a counter because with sr megagross has a nice chance of 2hkoing it with meteor mash, let alone the attack boost and let alone t/ice punch, but yeah it can counter it while sr is gone.

 

[Dragontamer]

I said *almost*, the reason I didn't call mandibuzz a counter because with sr megagross has a nice chance of 2hkoing it with meteor mash, let alone the attack boost and let alone t/ice punch, but yeah it can counter it while sr is gone.

The Attack Boost only makes Metagross die to Foul Play harder. Mandibuzz wants the +Hax to happen, because of Foul Play mechanics. T-punch only deals 45% max, so Mandibuzz counters T-Punch / Ice-Punch without SR.

But there's also Mega-Slowbro then. 252 / 80+ Def takes like 36% from Thunderpunch, and is therefore a counter even with SR up.

On paper, Metagross is far scarier than it looks. It still might be bannable, but there are lots of checks and counters to the beast right now. I will say that I think Metagross > Lele in terms of threat... maybe even > Landorus-I.

 

[Seth_]

Huge problem with metagross are its sets. Mash, Zen, Punches, EQ, Hammer arm, Pursuit, Bullet punch and even grass knot are all viable option. It is huge problem to switch in this big boy.

I won't be suprised if it will reach primal goundon's rate of use.