So I haven't touched the new meta yet since I'm waiting for the mighty ban hammer to. take out the OOU pokemon that are probably on every third team, buuuuuuut I have a question for those who are in the thick of it: have you found spikes to be more effective since the introduction of terrains? There is a lot more incentive to keep your pokemon grounded now, and that makes me wonder if 2 layers of spikes are possibly 15-25% more impactful than they would have been last gen.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Celticpride
- Start date
- Status
We're talking about OU here - Kangaskhanite is banned. Mental Herb Mimikyu is fine as a setter, but it doesn't have so much to offer beyond a guaranteed setting (which, don't get me wrong, is good - but something additional is great). I don't really see how Psychic Terrain can be well exploited on a TR team, priority has a much higher value on a TR team and so to factor it in to a TR team IMO you would be gimping yourself a little (then again, most Psychic Types can run Z-Focus Blast with the 100% accuracy, so possibly it can work - the meta needs to settle dramatically to be sure).
At least for now, people shouldn't be running TR and hoping it to be successful. Teams can certainly be successful through the surprise factor and simple stochastic chance, but I don't think this current scrambling meta is a suitable arena for it. Give it some time to settle, and then give it a go. This is from me, who ran successful TR last gen.
No way no how. I mean Tapu Bulu is good, but by no means is common enough to offset the deficit. By that I mean ever in this gen I'd imagine, just look at the speed stat, if they use a Scarf then Grass is super wall-able. It's not impactful, even though Tapu Bulu will always have sweet attacks.
Actually, I think it's the opposite: While Trick Room is up, a TR team fears priority more than anything else as a TR abuser will outspeed almost everything on the opposing team. TR teams only really need priority when TR is down, and even then its 'mons should have a decent amount of bulk to take a hit or two.
what do you all think on the nature berries' buff (Aguav, Figy, Iapapa, Mago, Wiki)? It now boosts health by 50% Max HP when Pokémon drops below 25%
http://www.serebii.net/sunmoon/updateditems.shtml
http://www.serebii.net/sunmoon/updateditems.shtml
I think this has a big impact on the metagame. And I think all 5 berries now has become a superior choice for Belly Drum users rather than using Z-Drum
Edit: derp. It recovers when your HP is below 25%. Still a good choice I think.
So I've been playing around in the new meta with chandelure and it seems like it performs really well against a lot of top threats by virtue of its typing
been running a bulky set
Chandler (Chandelure) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Pain Split
been running a bulky set
Chandler (Chandelure) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball
- Pain Split
I wonder if it's just me but the scarf genesect + dugtrio core is hard to deal with.
Not true, if you have a priority user on TR then it outspeeds the opponent's priority on TR. In that way, priority can be a massive asset to a TR team both while it is up and certainly after TR has finished. Besides, priority tends to be weak (particularly with Gale Wings becoming more or less useless) and TR abusing mons always have some bulk - I don't think they really fear priority to a large extent.
As I mentioned, I made a top 100 TR team last gen, I do know what I'm talking about.
Stall time baby.
Early gens are really, really hard to write about cohesively. In fact, I'm on my third start this time trying to form a concise grouping of statements about what's going on. I know what I want to address, and I'm getting better at ordering this so let's hope this gets going well.
First of all, this is a stall meta that is dominated about how you expend your electricity weak spots and how you cover those electricity-weaks you've taken. There's a whole host of GREAT water and flying types this generation, both by meta (mandi/suicune/alomomola) and probably for good (mantine/toxapex/skarm). Every stall team I've seen with legitimate effectiveness has at least two electricity weaks. This is just showing how good they are.
So them being this good, there's the issue of stuff like Tapu Koko/Xurkitry/Thundy-i/Zone and anything carrying electric coverage now. Predictably, you need an electric resist per weak, basically. Grass, Dragons and Grounds, along with Marowak and lightning rod round off the real available options here. The thing is, this is the HUGE unseen buff of this generation to stall. Tapu Bulu, Decidueye, Amoongus, MVenu and Tangrowth are all TOP TIER electric resists. Hippo once again FINALLY feels useful and ZardX is sooo smooth right now. Bulu and Decidueye being good stall mons are simply imperative for the way stall wants to play. It gives stall options for how you want to deflect the electric attackers.
Thing is, this diversity is MAINLY in grass types. This is because while traditionally your ground types are Quagsire, Gliscor and Hippo, Quag is another water, Gliscor not good at it's original stall job (acceptable stop to Landoi and stallbreaker). Plus can you really rely on an electric type outside Zone to not have HP ice or something for the boltbeam completion? Hippo is about it for now. ZardX is currently the only viable dragon until Latias-M and Malt-M get released (Hoping) or Goodra rain defense teams get invented. It's very likely that happens now with Pelipper in it's state and the grass types can still take Keldeo on a rain team. Goodra/decidueye seem like a stupidly dense special core on paper, having only an ice weakness and no real ice special attacks strong enough to break Goodra at no boost.
So that's the general game at a super broad level of what I've been doing when I start designing a team. And I think it's the correct path. I've been watching as many vods as I can get sent to me on stall and a lot of Sable teams that have refused to adapt or only add Toxapex are finding themselves losing far more often than in the past.
Most Sable teams still follow the relative same mold of last gen. Win the hazards game with Sable existing, have like one hazard clear and one set option somewhere, be fat as fuck and hope the opponent roles over and dies in the next 400 turns. The crafted wincons of previous gens aren't doing as well or just don't exist on most of these teams I've seen. Trio is finding it a bit harder to keep sash right now and well... it's a flying/water meta for stall, that's a basic component enemy to dugtrio. There are a lot of fairies in the meta now, and dear god the cardinal sin of not adapting is being unable to show a TRUE tapu koko counter on your team anywhere. Most still rely on Sable to take Phermosa, which doesn't seem awful but there are better ways.
But passivity is a disease that stall currently has this generation. Toxapex and Mantine don't really help there. Sable teams are pretty passive to begin with, now more than ever when four of the biggest success stories of this gen are fairies (Koko, Lele, Bulu, Magearna). It's a bit unclear what stalls wincon IS right now. Like the easiest answer is a CM sweeper from last gen like Suicune or Clefable which can be useful enough to finish off a team and have good roles early. However I don't think that's what this gen is going to end up with. I don't really know this answer. I haven't really had a good one yet, though I've experimented with Decidueye's SD and NP sets while maintaining pure defensive spreads. I don't want to do Vincune or CM Clef since it intrudes too hard. I've considered a bulk version of the PZ sweeper with P2 but haven't done anything there yet. So far I've been most successful with a pressure style, which isn't good. You need solid options, especially now that the "Malt Setup sweep" or Reun run isn't as viable (yeah let's go with Reun when Aegi exists and Tapu Lele can feasibly 2HKO God). The only other answer I can think of is Z-moves with utility but I don't have anything solid here.
The second issue right now is I'm not SURE what to counter. This is the bane of every new meta but selecting a group of sets and saying "this is relevant to wall" is hard right now. I've seen a parting shot persian that ran taunt and just fucking annihilated me. I don't think it's meta but it's not something I'm prepared for either. Tapu Fini has fucked me up a few times because I can't do shit with statuses during that time and it allows stuff like Scizor/normally burnable sweepers to set up with impunity to scald/wisp. Good lord did I get fucking tilted when that thing brought in a Scizor after my Zard got low and I just had no way to burn it with any of my other checks. I'm pretty sure this isn't meta right now but man if it doesn't look sexy to set up a physical sweeper now under misty terrain. Just last game I almost lost to Minior, though this was because I didn't realize the stupid thing wasn't able to be statused with shields up. Not written in the ability description and I was seeeeeething. Also Manaphy is COMPLETELY stupid to stall (ZMove rain boosted Hydro Vortext OHKOS CHANSEY after 1 TG) and you just have to pray to god something can haze it before it OHKOs whatever the hell it wants to.
Alright problems aside, I want to go over some theories I have.
I've not really implemented any of these successfully but that's the next step I've got. Currently my best looking team is:
Only note is you can go defog over U-Turn on Decidueye depending on how comfortable you are. As you can see, I've got 2 electric resists + immune for 2 electric weaks. A bit of overcompensation but even then I'm not always happy with the result. I've considered Skarmory for Mandibuzz but that's my best Aegislash check and a pretty decent setup stopper as well as taunter. In the future I feel this kinda team will not be very good especially since no steel is still a bad deal on a stall but for now it's helped really get me an idea of how I should be looking at stall.
Mainly, Mantine is more important than Toxapex is the conclusion I've come to due to Toxapex's passivity. It may change due to that Icium set because it's actually really good if you've got no other Z-Move to burn. But right now Toxapex is just too hard to enable because he makes your own team so passive. Older pivots like Tangrowth/Slowbro/Amoongus/Tornadus had the power or statuses to make you accomplish something by attacking with them. Toxapex kinda fails that.
Secondly, Mantine is what you should base a team around. Mantine or Skarmory are the best two starting points for a team due to basically being far-reaching catch-alls with defog utility. All of defog, reliable recovery/bulk and typing give these two mons fantastic tier coverage. Even if you use both of them, you really don't lose much to do so and it just means you're gonna have a need for probably an immune or 2 resists to electricity.
Notice lack of Chansey. This is kinda intentional, but also because how could I justify ANOTHER spdef wall? More importantly, one that gets easily trapped by Dugtrio. This team is rather hard for Dugtrio to nail down because if I see it in preview, ZardX isn't transforming until I get a chance to wisp. Switch pattern gives you one free mistake if you get double switched in, but that's the point in this team being basically untrappable. Clefable also filled the Unaware niche which is REALLY ROUGH in a gen where you're tempted to stack water types. Also Alomomola is a water type which is true sadness. Clefable has been on 2 of my three teams, though the one with chansey also has toxapex and just prays to never see duggy. Hopefully that sylveon set works? Also above mentioned Lanturn set would be cool too, but still duggy bait. So we're not really having good luck with clerics as of yet.
While there's no boosting move, you can see this team certainly has some damage to back it up. Lots of high powered stab moves, few spreads mix in speed. Even passive mantine runs two attacks. Everything has two attacks but rock setter and taunt breaker. Everything has it's own recovery so wish passing isn't really needed. I think wish passing as a concept is probably dying in a gutter a little more with each generation. It's harder and harder to get a wish off successfully without being fully predictable or getting U-turned on to make you lose a lot of momentum/HP just from doing it. Teams probably only need Heal bell any more to be perfectly honest.
It's chaotic so far. Tomorrow I'm going to make two more teams, a Lanturn-centered one and a wincon P2 team. I'll report back later.
Early gens are really, really hard to write about cohesively. In fact, I'm on my third start this time trying to form a concise grouping of statements about what's going on. I know what I want to address, and I'm getting better at ordering this so let's hope this gets going well.
First of all, this is a stall meta that is dominated about how you expend your electricity weak spots and how you cover those electricity-weaks you've taken. There's a whole host of GREAT water and flying types this generation, both by meta (mandi/suicune/alomomola) and probably for good (mantine/toxapex/skarm). Every stall team I've seen with legitimate effectiveness has at least two electricity weaks. This is just showing how good they are.
So them being this good, there's the issue of stuff like Tapu Koko/Xurkitry/Thundy-i/Zone and anything carrying electric coverage now. Predictably, you need an electric resist per weak, basically. Grass, Dragons and Grounds, along with Marowak and lightning rod round off the real available options here. The thing is, this is the HUGE unseen buff of this generation to stall. Tapu Bulu, Decidueye, Amoongus, MVenu and Tangrowth are all TOP TIER electric resists. Hippo once again FINALLY feels useful and ZardX is sooo smooth right now. Bulu and Decidueye being good stall mons are simply imperative for the way stall wants to play. It gives stall options for how you want to deflect the electric attackers.
Thing is, this diversity is MAINLY in grass types. This is because while traditionally your ground types are Quagsire, Gliscor and Hippo, Quag is another water, Gliscor not good at it's original stall job (acceptable stop to Landoi and stallbreaker). Plus can you really rely on an electric type outside Zone to not have HP ice or something for the boltbeam completion? Hippo is about it for now. ZardX is currently the only viable dragon until Latias-M and Malt-M get released (Hoping) or Goodra rain defense teams get invented. It's very likely that happens now with Pelipper in it's state and the grass types can still take Keldeo on a rain team. Goodra/decidueye seem like a stupidly dense special core on paper, having only an ice weakness and no real ice special attacks strong enough to break Goodra at no boost.
So that's the general game at a super broad level of what I've been doing when I start designing a team. And I think it's the correct path. I've been watching as many vods as I can get sent to me on stall and a lot of Sable teams that have refused to adapt or only add Toxapex are finding themselves losing far more often than in the past.
Most Sable teams still follow the relative same mold of last gen. Win the hazards game with Sable existing, have like one hazard clear and one set option somewhere, be fat as fuck and hope the opponent roles over and dies in the next 400 turns. The crafted wincons of previous gens aren't doing as well or just don't exist on most of these teams I've seen. Trio is finding it a bit harder to keep sash right now and well... it's a flying/water meta for stall, that's a basic component enemy to dugtrio. There are a lot of fairies in the meta now, and dear god the cardinal sin of not adapting is being unable to show a TRUE tapu koko counter on your team anywhere. Most still rely on Sable to take Phermosa, which doesn't seem awful but there are better ways.
But passivity is a disease that stall currently has this generation. Toxapex and Mantine don't really help there. Sable teams are pretty passive to begin with, now more than ever when four of the biggest success stories of this gen are fairies (Koko, Lele, Bulu, Magearna). It's a bit unclear what stalls wincon IS right now. Like the easiest answer is a CM sweeper from last gen like Suicune or Clefable which can be useful enough to finish off a team and have good roles early. However I don't think that's what this gen is going to end up with. I don't really know this answer. I haven't really had a good one yet, though I've experimented with Decidueye's SD and NP sets while maintaining pure defensive spreads. I don't want to do Vincune or CM Clef since it intrudes too hard. I've considered a bulk version of the PZ sweeper with P2 but haven't done anything there yet. So far I've been most successful with a pressure style, which isn't good. You need solid options, especially now that the "Malt Setup sweep" or Reun run isn't as viable (yeah let's go with Reun when Aegi exists and Tapu Lele can feasibly 2HKO God). The only other answer I can think of is Z-moves with utility but I don't have anything solid here.
The second issue right now is I'm not SURE what to counter. This is the bane of every new meta but selecting a group of sets and saying "this is relevant to wall" is hard right now. I've seen a parting shot persian that ran taunt and just fucking annihilated me. I don't think it's meta but it's not something I'm prepared for either. Tapu Fini has fucked me up a few times because I can't do shit with statuses during that time and it allows stuff like Scizor/normally burnable sweepers to set up with impunity to scald/wisp. Good lord did I get fucking tilted when that thing brought in a Scizor after my Zard got low and I just had no way to burn it with any of my other checks. I'm pretty sure this isn't meta right now but man if it doesn't look sexy to set up a physical sweeper now under misty terrain. Just last game I almost lost to Minior, though this was because I didn't realize the stupid thing wasn't able to be statused with shields up. Not written in the ability description and I was seeeeeething. Also Manaphy is COMPLETELY stupid to stall (ZMove rain boosted Hydro Vortext OHKOS CHANSEY after 1 TG) and you just have to pray to god something can haze it before it OHKOs whatever the hell it wants to.
Alright problems aside, I want to go over some theories I have.
First off, this set:
Porygon2 @ Normalium Z
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Conversion
- Recover
- Shadow Ball
Where you can move Shadow Ball/Foul Play as you need. It's my best attempt at a 'sweeper' set that can still perform as a wall. I ran a few theory tests and setups and it's fairly dangerous regardless. I just want toxic somehow and that isn't happening... There just feels like a set here and I'm not quite good enough to do anything about it yet.
This set:
Toxapex @ Icium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Toxic
- Scald
- Sludge Wave
Is FAR cooler, and not just because we're using an Icium Z. Basically, I'm not running recover because I don't think Toxapex needs it. But I respect that situations may arise rarely where it's useful... but they're so rare I started monitoring my usage and it was normally 2-3 per game unless I was stalling PP. I just switch way more often for HP. Haze's Z-Move nicely recovers 50% HP for you on activation meaning you get both worlds here, + offensive pressure. I think it's a bit niche but the upward trade in offensive power seems very affordable for the low low cost of no recovery on a Regen mon (and I mean, Amoongus/Tornadus/Tangrowth all do this already). EV spread is just standard cuz wtf am I supposed to do?
Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Psych Up
- Recover
- Baton Pass
- Toxic
At first I thought Z-Move Purify would be cool but the implications are actually kinda ass unless you have tspikes down. Not reliable recovery either, unless you just go Recover/Purify/Toxic/BP, which I'd imagine is the set someone using this would run. Otherwise i do like this thing as a steal-yo-boost kinda mon. Toxic stall them out, pass out whatever you got and move on.
There's a few other theories I haven't gotten for the wincon. One is Z-Move refresh, which is a one turn recover + Refresh's normal thing. Rachi, Tapu Fini, Sylveon seem like the best user of it in a CM set. Only real issue is Fini doesn't really get statused... But it's an actual recovery move on all three, which is quite nice especially for Rachi so it doesn't have to carry wish AND can avoid burns/twave. Sylveon ALSO gets this boost through Heal Bell, so she can still clear statuses once or so. Specifically you DO fodder off leftovers for this but I think there's a niche here if stall is that in need for wincons.
Edit: I actually forgot a huge one: Lanturn. Lanturn's Z move heal bell recovers HP, has an electric immunity and gets scald/discharge/heal bell/rest|Soak. It actually is a really good set in a tier with bad clerical support. Lanturn never really had more than three good moves anyways (heal bell/elec/scald) in OU at least.
Porygon2 @ Normalium Z
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Conversion
- Recover
- Shadow Ball
Where you can move Shadow Ball/Foul Play as you need. It's my best attempt at a 'sweeper' set that can still perform as a wall. I ran a few theory tests and setups and it's fairly dangerous regardless. I just want toxic somehow and that isn't happening... There just feels like a set here and I'm not quite good enough to do anything about it yet.
This set:
Toxapex @ Icium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Toxic
- Scald
- Sludge Wave
Is FAR cooler, and not just because we're using an Icium Z. Basically, I'm not running recover because I don't think Toxapex needs it. But I respect that situations may arise rarely where it's useful... but they're so rare I started monitoring my usage and it was normally 2-3 per game unless I was stalling PP. I just switch way more often for HP. Haze's Z-Move nicely recovers 50% HP for you on activation meaning you get both worlds here, + offensive pressure. I think it's a bit niche but the upward trade in offensive power seems very affordable for the low low cost of no recovery on a Regen mon (and I mean, Amoongus/Tornadus/Tangrowth all do this already). EV spread is just standard cuz wtf am I supposed to do?
Pyukumuku @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Psych Up
- Recover
- Baton Pass
- Toxic
At first I thought Z-Move Purify would be cool but the implications are actually kinda ass unless you have tspikes down. Not reliable recovery either, unless you just go Recover/Purify/Toxic/BP, which I'd imagine is the set someone using this would run. Otherwise i do like this thing as a steal-yo-boost kinda mon. Toxic stall them out, pass out whatever you got and move on.
There's a few other theories I haven't gotten for the wincon. One is Z-Move refresh, which is a one turn recover + Refresh's normal thing. Rachi, Tapu Fini, Sylveon seem like the best user of it in a CM set. Only real issue is Fini doesn't really get statused... But it's an actual recovery move on all three, which is quite nice especially for Rachi so it doesn't have to carry wish AND can avoid burns/twave. Sylveon ALSO gets this boost through Heal Bell, so she can still clear statuses once or so. Specifically you DO fodder off leftovers for this but I think there's a niche here if stall is that in need for wincons.
Edit: I actually forgot a huge one: Lanturn. Lanturn's Z move heal bell recovers HP, has an electric immunity and gets scald/discharge/heal bell/rest|Soak. It actually is a really good set in a tier with bad clerical support. Lanturn never really had more than three good moves anyways (heal bell/elec/scald) in OU at least.
I've not really implemented any of these successfully but that's the next step I've got. Currently my best looking team is:
Decidueye @ Leftovers
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- U-turn
- Leaf Blade
- Spirit Shackle
Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 240 HP / 216 SpD / 52 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Roost
- Taunt
- Foul Play
Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Defog
- Roost
- Scald
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Slack Off
- Earthquake
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 248 HP / 100 Def / 160 Spe
Impish Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Fire Punch
- Dragon Claw
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Roost
- U-turn
- Leaf Blade
- Spirit Shackle
Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 240 HP / 216 SpD / 52 Spe
Careful Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Roost
- Taunt
- Foul Play
Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Air Slash
- Defog
- Roost
- Scald
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Slack Off
- Earthquake
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell
Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 248 HP / 100 Def / 160 Spe
Impish Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost
- Fire Punch
- Dragon Claw
Only note is you can go defog over U-Turn on Decidueye depending on how comfortable you are. As you can see, I've got 2 electric resists + immune for 2 electric weaks. A bit of overcompensation but even then I'm not always happy with the result. I've considered Skarmory for Mandibuzz but that's my best Aegislash check and a pretty decent setup stopper as well as taunter. In the future I feel this kinda team will not be very good especially since no steel is still a bad deal on a stall but for now it's helped really get me an idea of how I should be looking at stall.
Mainly, Mantine is more important than Toxapex is the conclusion I've come to due to Toxapex's passivity. It may change due to that Icium set because it's actually really good if you've got no other Z-Move to burn. But right now Toxapex is just too hard to enable because he makes your own team so passive. Older pivots like Tangrowth/Slowbro/Amoongus/Tornadus had the power or statuses to make you accomplish something by attacking with them. Toxapex kinda fails that.
Secondly, Mantine is what you should base a team around. Mantine or Skarmory are the best two starting points for a team due to basically being far-reaching catch-alls with defog utility. All of defog, reliable recovery/bulk and typing give these two mons fantastic tier coverage. Even if you use both of them, you really don't lose much to do so and it just means you're gonna have a need for probably an immune or 2 resists to electricity.
Notice lack of Chansey. This is kinda intentional, but also because how could I justify ANOTHER spdef wall? More importantly, one that gets easily trapped by Dugtrio. This team is rather hard for Dugtrio to nail down because if I see it in preview, ZardX isn't transforming until I get a chance to wisp. Switch pattern gives you one free mistake if you get double switched in, but that's the point in this team being basically untrappable. Clefable also filled the Unaware niche which is REALLY ROUGH in a gen where you're tempted to stack water types. Also Alomomola is a water type which is true sadness. Clefable has been on 2 of my three teams, though the one with chansey also has toxapex and just prays to never see duggy. Hopefully that sylveon set works? Also above mentioned Lanturn set would be cool too, but still duggy bait. So we're not really having good luck with clerics as of yet.
While there's no boosting move, you can see this team certainly has some damage to back it up. Lots of high powered stab moves, few spreads mix in speed. Even passive mantine runs two attacks. Everything has two attacks but rock setter and taunt breaker. Everything has it's own recovery so wish passing isn't really needed. I think wish passing as a concept is probably dying in a gutter a little more with each generation. It's harder and harder to get a wish off successfully without being fully predictable or getting U-turned on to make you lose a lot of momentum/HP just from doing it. Teams probably only need Heal bell any more to be perfectly honest.
It's chaotic so far. Tomorrow I'm going to make two more teams, a Lanturn-centered one and a wincon P2 team. I'll report back later.
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INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
a set I can't help but keep using and haven't seen yet
Shiinotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Moonblast
- Leech Seed
- Strength Sap
it switches in very nicely to the ground/electric spam and also gets no trouble from fighting, grass, dark or dragon of course.
Basically it covers who ever it switched in on + trying to read a switch, all the moves can blanket check just about all it needs outside of special grass pokemon.
I use it to force switches till I can leech seed/spore and switch into something that needs the hp/checks it's switch in
0 SpA Shiinotic Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 134-158 (44 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
definitely does work with it's stab moonblast tho
stall is insanely passive tho, need pressure or a wincon like You said
Shiinotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Effect Spore
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Moonblast
- Leech Seed
- Strength Sap
it switches in very nicely to the ground/electric spam and also gets no trouble from fighting, grass, dark or dragon of course.
Basically it covers who ever it switched in on + trying to read a switch, all the moves can blanket check just about all it needs outside of special grass pokemon.
I use it to force switches till I can leech seed/spore and switch into something that needs the hp/checks it's switch in
0 SpA Shiinotic Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 134-158 (44 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
definitely does work with it's stab moonblast tho
stall is insanely passive tho, need pressure or a wincon like You said
I'd like to add on to my previous statement about walls having a hard time spreading status because of all the status-immune typings that are common, and say that walls themselves are obsolete. Why?
- Knock Off spam removes leftovers
- Lots of status-immune pokemon around that can set up or gain momentum off your wall
- Too many threats to cover all of which are capable of sweeping your team if you don't have a hard counter for it (Azumarill with or without Z-drum, Z-Hypnosis Tail Glow Xurkitree, Pheromosa, Mega Pinsir, Hoopa-U, Landorus, Megagross, Conkeldurr, Voltturn spam, Greninja, Z-Rain Dance Tail Glow Manaphy, ......)
- Mons in this metagame hit so hard that they don't really care about your pokemon being a wall in the first place. They'll straight out 2-3HKO it and then switch or Voltturn out and in 1 or 2 such exchanges its ability to check will be gone, and using recovery on the turn it switches just puts more pressure on you
- Wish and Heal Bell are hard to find turns for, because every turn could mean something sets up and/or your wall gets KO'ed if it stays in from a switch or just from the opposing mon powering through it, and you need every turn you can get to stop those mons from doing just that setting up
- I named Voltturn already, but it deserves its own line. Try getting ahead in the game against a team like Genesect+Mega Scizor+Tapu Koko/Filler+Heatran+Landorus+Filler with your team that has 2-3 walls on it (notice how every single one of those is coincidentally immune to some kind of status?)
- The number of feasible walls is a fraction of the number of sweepers. Just compare the amount of mons that have Unaware to the amount that have say, Beast Boost, an ability introduced in this generation
It's an offense-based meta, don't make any mistake about it.
- Knock Off spam removes leftovers
- Lots of status-immune pokemon around that can set up or gain momentum off your wall
- Too many threats to cover all of which are capable of sweeping your team if you don't have a hard counter for it (Azumarill with or without Z-drum, Z-Hypnosis Tail Glow Xurkitree, Pheromosa, Mega Pinsir, Hoopa-U, Landorus, Megagross, Conkeldurr, Voltturn spam, Greninja, Z-Rain Dance Tail Glow Manaphy, ......)
- Mons in this metagame hit so hard that they don't really care about your pokemon being a wall in the first place. They'll straight out 2-3HKO it and then switch or Voltturn out and in 1 or 2 such exchanges its ability to check will be gone, and using recovery on the turn it switches just puts more pressure on you
- Wish and Heal Bell are hard to find turns for, because every turn could mean something sets up and/or your wall gets KO'ed if it stays in from a switch or just from the opposing mon powering through it, and you need every turn you can get to stop those mons from doing just that setting up
- I named Voltturn already, but it deserves its own line. Try getting ahead in the game against a team like Genesect+Mega Scizor+Tapu Koko/Filler+Heatran+Landorus+Filler with your team that has 2-3 walls on it (notice how every single one of those is coincidentally immune to some kind of status?)
- The number of feasible walls is a fraction of the number of sweepers. Just compare the amount of mons that have Unaware to the amount that have say, Beast Boost, an ability introduced in this generation
It's an offense-based meta, don't make any mistake about it.
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Wow, that's a really impressive analysis from you. I noticed the sample team is kinda weak to strong Ice attacker (CB Weavile, LO/Specs Kyurem-B and LO Mamoswine can ez 6-0). However those mons aren't exactly common right now. Anyways, I'm looking forward to your next builds to improve this.
Has anyone noticed that Greninja gets access to z-happy hour (plus 1 to all stats)? Seems like a great option, especially since you now outspeed scarfers and Pheromosa, but it's a one-time boost, so you have to time it well. You also have to worry about haze and phasing, if you're not strong enough to OHKO.
On the good side, you do 50% more damage rather than life orbs 30%, you get outsped by nothing bar scarf Pheromosa, and you can tank priority easier.
Thoughts?
On the good side, you do 50% more damage rather than life orbs 30%, you get outsped by nothing bar scarf Pheromosa, and you can tank priority easier.
Thoughts?
p2
Banned deucer.
aj i have 0 idea what your post is honestly and the fact that you're advocating steel-less stall is making me puke, especially when there's 3 amazing insanely splashable steels in skarmory / celesteela / aegi going around which are basically mandatory on stall but i guess arsing around with garbage decidueye works better!
the biggest threats to stall this gen are z-water mana, specs hoopa, cm lele, and a bunch of uncommon goons like serperior (things like hera/medi/gard being non-existant as of now is amazing). stall is generally pretty similar to what it was in xy, with sab/chans/skarm being a staple core on it because of the massive amount of threats they all keep under check, toxapex is the obligatory keldeo answer on this team nowadays because it brings so much more utility to the table unlike amoonguss which just sits there and spores something while toxapex actually has a shit ton of utility as a poison type because it brings tspikes to the table, in xy these were really hard to fit on teams without resorting to garbage like spdef drag/cofag, stall finally has a splashable option for toxic spikes.
also not sure why stall needs a wincon anyway, it's been established plenty of times over the last 2 gens that stall relies on, well, stalling things out, not trying to apply offensive pressure to win. i'm also not sure what to say to z-move porygon2 because you're dropping evio for some absurd reason for a 1 time boost when stall is all about switching so that doesn't work.
here's some real shit, first team is pretty infamous because it was apparently everywhere on the ladder with some adjustments like clef over quag which definitely worked out.
second teams are exploring some other things like zapdos which was great last gen and is pretty good now since theres a load more shit it can check especially lando, while obviously an elec immune is mandatory on all teams, i went with quag though since safety net v a ton of shit etc etc. alomomola is pretty good though, checks annoying things like gene and zard x, punishes them v well with rhelm/toxic. hmu for imports
the biggest threats to stall this gen are z-water mana, specs hoopa, cm lele, and a bunch of uncommon goons like serperior (things like hera/medi/gard being non-existant as of now is amazing). stall is generally pretty similar to what it was in xy, with sab/chans/skarm being a staple core on it because of the massive amount of threats they all keep under check, toxapex is the obligatory keldeo answer on this team nowadays because it brings so much more utility to the table unlike amoonguss which just sits there and spores something while toxapex actually has a shit ton of utility as a poison type because it brings tspikes to the table, in xy these were really hard to fit on teams without resorting to garbage like spdef drag/cofag, stall finally has a splashable option for toxic spikes.
also not sure why stall needs a wincon anyway, it's been established plenty of times over the last 2 gens that stall relies on, well, stalling things out, not trying to apply offensive pressure to win. i'm also not sure what to say to z-move porygon2 because you're dropping evio for some absurd reason for a 1 time boost when stall is all about switching so that doesn't work.
here's some real shit, first team is pretty infamous because it was apparently everywhere on the ladder with some adjustments like clef over quag which definitely worked out.
second teams are exploring some other things like zapdos which was great last gen and is pretty good now since theres a load more shit it can check especially lando, while obviously an elec immune is mandatory on all teams, i went with quag though since safety net v a ton of shit etc etc. alomomola is pretty good though, checks annoying things like gene and zard x, punishes them v well with rhelm/toxic. hmu for imports
i have to echo p2 on stall not needing a wincon; in ORAS, the major stall teams we saw (gothitelle stall, weavile stall, hazard control stall...) really focused on... stalling the opponent out and/or basically winning at team preview. obviously this is super boring, but it has been proven to work, so if you have 5 hours to waste on 1 game, it works. the only reason you'd really need a wincon on stall (some fat booster like suicune or some type of breaker i guess) is to make the game progress more quickly for you (the stall player).
i personally think it's a bit too early into the gen to be memeing around with gimmicks and things that are just proven to be less effective... i usually leave that for when i get bored. there's currently a lot of cool options to be explored for stall and in general, so idk why people would focus on mediocre things in the meantime, but that's just personal preference i guess :p.
SM introduced a lot of generally strong, offensive stuff that can really annoy stall builds prone to chip / residual damage & ones that lack certain general things (like a steel...). i could easily see things like tapu koko, cb pheromosa, lando-i, and more being annoying for stall builds because people are choosing to forego basic things that could take these on; it's sorta like building stall w/out chansey and suddenly missing an answer to things that really shouldn't be a problem. those things i mentioned and others like them aren't really problems for stall if you focus on having answers to things rather than having wincons; celesteela helps with aegi and lando-i among other things, mantine helps with lando-i, gren, and pheromosa, aegi helps keep tapus and other shits in check, etc... i mean past those things i mentioned are some serious problems for defensive builds like specs tapu lele, pretty much any hoopa-u set, manaphy, etc. as p2 mentioned.
my point is there's a lot to check and there's some new stuff to use, so it makes sense to ensure your stall build can check those things instead of not using basic options you really should be using and picking wincons instead.
oh and for the love of god please don't use z conversion porygon2.
i personally think it's a bit too early into the gen to be memeing around with gimmicks and things that are just proven to be less effective... i usually leave that for when i get bored. there's currently a lot of cool options to be explored for stall and in general, so idk why people would focus on mediocre things in the meantime, but that's just personal preference i guess :p.
SM introduced a lot of generally strong, offensive stuff that can really annoy stall builds prone to chip / residual damage & ones that lack certain general things (like a steel...). i could easily see things like tapu koko, cb pheromosa, lando-i, and more being annoying for stall builds because people are choosing to forego basic things that could take these on; it's sorta like building stall w/out chansey and suddenly missing an answer to things that really shouldn't be a problem. those things i mentioned and others like them aren't really problems for stall if you focus on having answers to things rather than having wincons; celesteela helps with aegi and lando-i among other things, mantine helps with lando-i, gren, and pheromosa, aegi helps keep tapus and other shits in check, etc... i mean past those things i mentioned are some serious problems for defensive builds like specs tapu lele, pretty much any hoopa-u set, manaphy, etc. as p2 mentioned.
my point is there's a lot to check and there's some new stuff to use, so it makes sense to ensure your stall build can check those things instead of not using basic options you really should be using and picking wincons instead.
oh and for the love of god please don't use z conversion porygon2.
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
Well I have also personally been using stall a lot as well and it has garnered me quite a bit of success. Of course in the Broken Zygarde meta it was legit mandatory to run that monster on every stall team due to it being the best wincon/albeit setup sweeper in the metagame at that time. Since its banning, I actually started to explore using its vanilla form (aka regular Zygarde) on stall with its Specially Defensive RestCoil Set and its honestly still a nuisance for players to take down. Thousand Arrows really allow Zygarde to run a mono STAB attacking set without any drawbacks and it can easily setup Coils as it pertains respectable 108/121/95 bulk and it can truly be deadly as well from support from mons like Heal Bell Chansey and Toxic Spikes Toxapex.
Here is the variant I have personally been using, it kinda has a hard time with SubToxic Aegislash and AoA Landorus-I and Low Kick Greninja, but it still works really well:
It still amazes me that stall is already evolving this early into the meta, especially when we have all these new offensive powerhouses.
Here is the variant I have personally been using, it kinda has a hard time with SubToxic Aegislash and AoA Landorus-I and Low Kick Greninja, but it still works really well:
Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Fake Out
Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Haze
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
- Heal Bell
- Soft-Boiled
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpD
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost
- Whirlwind
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Atk / 136 SpD
Careful Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Shadow Bone
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Coil
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
Careful Nature
- Knock Off
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Fake Out
Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Haze
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
- Heal Bell
- Soft-Boiled
Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 180 Def / 76 SpD
Impish Nature
- Brave Bird
- Defog
- Roost
- Whirlwind
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 HP / 120 Atk / 136 SpD
Careful Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Shadow Bone
- Will-O-Wisp
- Protect
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Coil
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
It still amazes me that stall is already evolving this early into the meta, especially when we have all these new offensive powerhouses.
P2 I even admitted that the stall had issues because of the lack of a steel, if you read the paragraph after. I mentioned Skarmory is one of the mons that you start building around. The only reason this team doesn't have it is because I wasn't sure I'd be able to take Aegislash on this team otherwise.
I'm not going to argue the sable team, I've seen it 3-4 times (the top one) with Alomomola replaced with Clefable. It looks consistent but I don't think it's the optimal build this generation. My argument isn't "the team I've got is the baseline for what stall will look like" but rather that it's given me an idea of the meta and how stall's probably going to work.
The term "wincon" is used a bit loosely. My definition has always been a mon that can just 'do something that can ultimately finish the game in your favor'. That's why I stated Double Defog could be considered here. My issue is the new mons like Toxapex are too passive. The window your opponent has to do something is too wide. Yeah cute sit sable/toxapex/chansey/alomomola and do damage next year. It walls a lot but it's too easy to setup on and destroy, especially when the offensive meta starts to pay attention to defensive teams more (aka we see more Kyurem/dedicated wallbreakers)
For the gimmick sets, I already know how weak P-2 is without eviolite. Having slept on it, I'm still not very excited about it. I think I'm going to work with Lanturn instead. Is it a gimmmick mon? Yeah without Z-move it definitely is. But that's the point of testing right now. I want to find out if any of the zmoves we have are good for stall. If I was going to go full tank, I'd go with the first team i had, which was toxapex/skarm/mantine/chansey/zardx/quaggy. I'm just worried teams like that don't have a lot of options that they can play back in.
Long story short, I'm not claiming to have the good stalls yet. I'm just searching for it and I don't think sable's the team this gen.
I'm not going to argue the sable team, I've seen it 3-4 times (the top one) with Alomomola replaced with Clefable. It looks consistent but I don't think it's the optimal build this generation. My argument isn't "the team I've got is the baseline for what stall will look like" but rather that it's given me an idea of the meta and how stall's probably going to work.
The term "wincon" is used a bit loosely. My definition has always been a mon that can just 'do something that can ultimately finish the game in your favor'. That's why I stated Double Defog could be considered here. My issue is the new mons like Toxapex are too passive. The window your opponent has to do something is too wide. Yeah cute sit sable/toxapex/chansey/alomomola and do damage next year. It walls a lot but it's too easy to setup on and destroy, especially when the offensive meta starts to pay attention to defensive teams more (aka we see more Kyurem/dedicated wallbreakers)
For the gimmick sets, I already know how weak P-2 is without eviolite. Having slept on it, I'm still not very excited about it. I think I'm going to work with Lanturn instead. Is it a gimmmick mon? Yeah without Z-move it definitely is. But that's the point of testing right now. I want to find out if any of the zmoves we have are good for stall. If I was going to go full tank, I'd go with the first team i had, which was toxapex/skarm/mantine/chansey/zardx/quaggy. I'm just worried teams like that don't have a lot of options that they can play back in.
Long story short, I'm not claiming to have the good stalls yet. I'm just searching for it and I don't think sable's the team this gen.
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So no one is running Shed Shell anymore on Skarm, or it's not available yet?
Magnezone is still a thing, and can really annoy stall, and steels in general.
Shed Shell+A-Marowak tuns Magnezone into a non-issue, and A-Marowak has the bonus of not getting trapped by Duggie, just perfect.
Scarf keeps things like Kartana and Mega Metagross checked, and Specs sends Celesteela to another world... well she is from another world lol. Don't forget Flash Cannon means it checks lots of fairy mons out there like Magearna and Clefable.
Magnezone still has lots of uses on balanced teams (where if fits best).
Magnezone is still a thing, and can really annoy stall, and steels in general.
Shed Shell+A-Marowak tuns Magnezone into a non-issue, and A-Marowak has the bonus of not getting trapped by Duggie, just perfect.
Scarf keeps things like Kartana and Mega Metagross checked, and Specs sends Celesteela to another world... well she is from another world lol. Don't forget Flash Cannon means it checks lots of fairy mons out there like Magearna and Clefable.
Magnezone still has lots of uses on balanced teams (where if fits best).
I'd add Pelipper instead of Toxapex...its rain weakens the only other move type that threatens aegislash,making it straight unbeatable.Also a good pokemon on its own.
aside from the stuff p2/starry mentioned, I think gen 7 stall has two pretty notable weaknesses. one is hazard setters that sableye+skarm doesn't beat, specifically the likes of sr lando-i and spikes greninja. hazards that can't be easily dealt with by magic bounce or skarm defog on mons that need to be switched in on by chansey for the types of builds p2 mentioned (which are the most common) make it very difficult. even if you run mantine, both lando-i and gren have valid options to beat it. the other is strong voltturn cores, specifically involving genesect and tapu koko. viable offensive voltturn is difficult for stall because stall then has to find a way to create its own momentum or at least stuff the voltturn momentum, which is inherently pretty difficult. the one hole is vs quag, but koko can run gk if it really wants to regardless.
also in addition to lele/mana/hoopa, stall has to contend with insane stuff like knock+focus lando-i, tg xurkitree, possible taunt+natures tapu koko/fini sets, and other specialty stallbreakers from the past. this doesn't even account for the random z move stuff that can surprise a particular member of the stall team and cripple the core, which you often have no way of telling that they are running. the propensity for stall to lose to 'randomness' in such an unstable and fluctuating metagame with a number of powerful stallbreaking options/strategies available creates severe matchup issues.
oh and re: win cons. a version of p2's team i saw had cm sableye and cm clef, which seem like pretty non-intrusive ways to add win cons to a stall team. in a metagame where creating a perfect or near perfect stall team is impossible, having a way to win and force the game in your favor at least helps alleviate some of the matchup issues that stall faces.
also in addition to lele/mana/hoopa, stall has to contend with insane stuff like knock+focus lando-i, tg xurkitree, possible taunt+natures tapu koko/fini sets, and other specialty stallbreakers from the past. this doesn't even account for the random z move stuff that can surprise a particular member of the stall team and cripple the core, which you often have no way of telling that they are running. the propensity for stall to lose to 'randomness' in such an unstable and fluctuating metagame with a number of powerful stallbreaking options/strategies available creates severe matchup issues.
oh and re: win cons. a version of p2's team i saw had cm sableye and cm clef, which seem like pretty non-intrusive ways to add win cons to a stall team. in a metagame where creating a perfect or near perfect stall team is impossible, having a way to win and force the game in your favor at least helps alleviate some of the matchup issues that stall faces.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
I hope you guys have been using mantine bc i swear than mon is amazing. Hard walls pheromosa and greninja and even takes on aegi/ pretty well once u scald burn it. It's bulkier than skarm ffs. And the typing aint bad either.
But yeah aegi/ needs to go i think i have it on all of my teams and for good reason. It checks way too much at once and is usable on every playstyle.
But yeah aegi/ needs to go i think i have it on all of my teams and for good reason. It checks way too much at once and is usable on every playstyle.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Guess I'll share some sets:
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 224 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows
- Toxic
P2 already mentioned some pokemon that have a great matchup vs. stall (Tapu Lele, Z Manaphy, Hoopa-U) and while Zygarde does not have the raw power of these pokemon, it also has a great matchup vs stall because it's really difficult to kill with weak attackers relying on status. I don't like Resttalk because the set can't break Unaware and Sleep Talk rolls can really fuck it over. 50% Zygarde doesn't have the bulk 100% does, but it is still able to set up against almost every defensive pokemon that doesn't have a super effective coverage move (which is rare on stall). It's also decent against bulky offense, but because bulky offensive teams actually use super effective coverage, Zygarde is more of a SubToxic staller than a bulky Coil sweeper against those teams.
Alternate EV spread is 60 Speed to outspeed Bisharp, Breloom and Max Speed Aegi but they are not really common and Bisharp probably will Sucker Punch you anyways.
Keldeo @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Taunt
- Toxic
I loved to use Taunt Keldeo in ORAS and while Keldeo's viability really dropped in the early stages of SM, I still wanted to use the set. Taunt CM Keldeo is still a nice lure against some balanced teams to lure in pokemon like Toxapex, but the burn nerf and the introduction of pokemon like Mantine really hurt the viability of that set. Some people might say pokemon like Roost Mantine and Toxapex can be lured with Specs HP Electric and while that's true, many players will pivot in another wall first to scout for HP Electric, so it's not as effective as it may seem. Toxic on the other hand does a great job at luring in pokemon such as Lati@s, Mantine (even after the pivot), Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu, while Taunt shuts down recovery from Lati@s, Mantine, Toxapex, and Mega Venusaur and other support moves like Celesteela's Seed+Protect and Defog from Lati@s, Mantine and Tapu Fini. Many people are too busy preparing for Aegislash, Pheromosa and Tapu Koko, so Keldeo can really catch them off guard (not only this set but also Specs with HP Electric).
Zygarde @ Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 224 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Coil
- Thousand Arrows
- Toxic
P2 already mentioned some pokemon that have a great matchup vs. stall (Tapu Lele, Z Manaphy, Hoopa-U) and while Zygarde does not have the raw power of these pokemon, it also has a great matchup vs stall because it's really difficult to kill with weak attackers relying on status. I don't like Resttalk because the set can't break Unaware and Sleep Talk rolls can really fuck it over. 50% Zygarde doesn't have the bulk 100% does, but it is still able to set up against almost every defensive pokemon that doesn't have a super effective coverage move (which is rare on stall). It's also decent against bulky offense, but because bulky offensive teams actually use super effective coverage, Zygarde is more of a SubToxic staller than a bulky Coil sweeper against those teams.
Alternate EV spread is 60 Speed to outspeed Bisharp, Breloom and Max Speed Aegi but they are not really common and Bisharp probably will Sucker Punch you anyways.
Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 224 HP Zygarde: 100-100 (24.2 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 224 HP / 12 Def Zygarde: 87-103 (21 - 24.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 93-109 (22.5 - 26.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Scald vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 81-96 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 72-85 (17.4 - 20.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (80 BP) vs. 224 HP / 12 Def Zygarde: 73-87 (17.6 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 73-87 (17.6 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 224 HP / 12 Def Zygarde: 87-103 (21 - 24.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Hydro Pump vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 93-109 (22.5 - 26.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Slowbro-Mega Scald vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 81-96 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 72-85 (17.4 - 20.5%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (80 BP) vs. 224 HP / 12 Def Zygarde: 73-87 (17.6 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 73-87 (17.6 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa-Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 178-211 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 224 HP / 12 Def Zygarde: 186-219 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 187-220 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 203-244 (49.1 - 59%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 224 HP / 12 Def Zygarde: 186-219 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 187-220 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Hidden Power Ice vs. 224 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 203-244 (49.1 - 59%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Keldeo @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Secret Sword
- Taunt
- Toxic
I loved to use Taunt Keldeo in ORAS and while Keldeo's viability really dropped in the early stages of SM, I still wanted to use the set. Taunt CM Keldeo is still a nice lure against some balanced teams to lure in pokemon like Toxapex, but the burn nerf and the introduction of pokemon like Mantine really hurt the viability of that set. Some people might say pokemon like Roost Mantine and Toxapex can be lured with Specs HP Electric and while that's true, many players will pivot in another wall first to scout for HP Electric, so it's not as effective as it may seem. Toxic on the other hand does a great job at luring in pokemon such as Lati@s, Mantine (even after the pivot), Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu, while Taunt shuts down recovery from Lati@s, Mantine, Toxapex, and Mega Venusaur and other support moves like Celesteela's Seed+Protect and Defog from Lati@s, Mantine and Tapu Fini. Many people are too busy preparing for Aegislash, Pheromosa and Tapu Koko, so Keldeo can really catch them off guard (not only this set but also Specs with HP Electric).
- Status