Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[i'm sora]

Full support with Acast. I'll be happy to jump aboard the train with my reason. Zapdos was a valid ban, which makes it much harder for Flying-types to deal with getting rid of entry hazards with the common choices you have are Skarmory, Mandibuzz, and Aricuno being the only main Defog users left. Zapdos was the most common switch in getting rid of Stealth Rocks. You're right, we differ in our point of views. You all complained that Flying needed a nerf, and there you have it. We got rid of Zapdos. I would just quit complaining about how much more we need to ban from Flying and adapt to the metagame.

If you don't see a large difference in how Flying has been since before, then I don't know what to tell you.

i agree almost fully with this post. flying did need a nerf. there was little people could do to break the core, and sometimes even had to sacrifice spots on their team just to counter it. zapdos is enough of a ban right now, especially, as the meta is still adjusting to the changes, types are falling out of favor (mostly water, dark) and other types are gaining it (bug, fighting, psychic.) the flying core is a bit more balanced then before, more things can break it, more things can pressure it, so in my opinion we should just wait a week or two, maybe even wait until this month's statistics come out, before making any moves regarding flying.

edit: to add onto this post, the types gaining popularity are weak to flying outside of psychic. why would that happen if flying was still the grand contender it was?

 

[RedsCharizard]

People resulting to mega gyarados and mega altaria if zard-x gets banned? Yeah, that's exactly what's gonna happen... so fck it, ban em all. Give flying their zapdos back and ban all flying types that lose its flying typing after a mega evolution. (The tier is called monotype anyways)

Mega Gyarados itself is not worth a ban given the fact that it covers a rock weakness which the type needs to get over in some way. Skarmory does exist, sure, but it is not able to deal damage back to the given rock type. Let's not forget that it can only recover HP by using rest, which also means sacrificing a slot for Sleep Talk... or simply wasting turns, allowing the opponent some momentum. Plus, Sleep Talk isn't very reliable.
Mega Altaria may become an issue, but it's not that high on the usage statistics yet, so I don't feel like we need to go that far.

The point is: let's not get ahead of ourselves and just focus on what we can completely see that needs discussion.

 

[SaNeski]

This is just too much to argue with y'll. Maybe i need to join a clan or something. You could have banned anything on the generic flying core setup and it would affect the usage stats. Zapdos got the ban and people are still complaining. Maybe because no one is ever really satisfied or maybe because the "nerf" still didn't balance the scales.

I know that the Zapdos ban affected the flying setup and would have caused a great ordeal in inconvenience and rebuilding a core, for me not to even think about that is ignorant... but read back, i asked for zapdos to be given back to flying and gave my own view on a nerf because honestly, idek where the zapdos ban came from, I don't remember a prior discussion to it, it just happened. And flying has been using that ban as a shield to protect its other pokes in arguments like, "Don't nerf flying more, we already had zapdos banned".

Though, from the above messages, it looks like you all agree that zapdos was the right poke to ban and the appropriate nerf. I'm going to tone down my point of view on the zapdos ban and try and be more open minded about it, maybe I'm not seeing what u guys have seen, but i will try.

And in relation to zard-x, these debates have been coming up since before the zapdos ban nd now again it's on a rise. #justsaying

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

This is just too much to argue with y'll. Maybe i need to join a clan or something. You could have banned anything on the generic flying core setup and it would affect the usage stats. Zapdos got the ban and people are still complaining. Maybe because no one is ever really satisfied or maybe because the "nerf" still didn't balance the scales.

I know that the Zapdos ban affected the flying setup and would have caused a great ordeal in inconvenience and rebuilding a core, for me not to even think about that is ignorant... but read back, i asked for zapdos to be given back to flying and gave my own view on a nerf because honestly, idek where the zapdos ban came from, I don't remember a prior discussion to it, it just happened. And flying has been using that ban as a shield to protect its other pokes in arguments like, "Don't nerf flying more, we already had zapdos banned".

Though, from the above messages, it looks like you all agree that zapdos was the right poke to ban and the appropriate nerf. I'm going to tone down my point of view on the zapdos ban and try and be more open minded about it, maybe I'm not seeing what u guys have seen, but i will try.

And in relation to zard-x, these debates have been coming up since before the zapdos ban nd now again it's on a rise. #justsaying

Pretty sure people are still complaining because that's what people do. The fact remains that the Zapdos ban got rid of one of Flying's best special walls, able to tank Thunderbolts all day without being 4x weak to Ice Beam, as well as one of the most consistent Defoggers. Yes, people have asked to ban Zard X before, but if you remember, they all amounted to nothing since it wasn't banworthy (hence why it's still here lol). Nothing much has drastically changed the metagame since then, except nerfing the Flying core to make it slightly easier to break. There are ways for every type to beat Zard X, and if there wasn't it would have got the banhammer a long time ago.

 

[i'm sora]

This is just too much to argue with y'll. Maybe i need to join a clan or something. You could have banned anything on the generic flying core setup and it would affect the usage stats. Zapdos got the ban and people are still complaining. Maybe because no one is ever really satisfied or maybe because the "nerf" still didn't balance the scales.

I know that the Zapdos ban affected the flying setup and would have caused a great ordeal in inconvenience and rebuilding a core, for me not to even think about that is ignorant... but read back, i asked for zapdos to be given back to flying and gave my own view on a nerf because honestly, idek where the zapdos ban came from, I don't remember a prior discussion to it, it just happened. And flying has been using that ban as a shield to protect its other pokes in arguments like, "Don't nerf flying more, we already had zapdos banned".

Though, from the above messages, it looks like you all agree that zapdos was the right poke to ban and the appropriate nerf. I'm going to tone down my point of view on the zapdos ban and try and be more open minded about it, maybe I'm not seeing what u guys have seen, but i will try.

And in relation to zard-x, these debates have been coming up since before the zapdos ban nd now again it's on a rise. #justsaying

i'm trying to be open minded to all arguements regarding it, i tried to make my first post not downing any of them too hard, and called char-x a god more than once. but if you take out char-x, we lose a reliable electric taker, the next being things like gliscor and lando, who get bopped by usual thundurus with hp ice, or stuff like genesect, who can run both coverages. char-x is a reliable switch in that can take an attack so we can switch to a proper counter. take that away and we switch to gliscor or lando, only to get hp ice'd and lose one of, if not our only counter to electric and status, taunt abuser or power, just because we don't want to get chunked by a boosted tbolt, and lose our heal bell, defogger, or the likes. i'm not trying to use zapdos as a shield to keep other pokes safe, i'm just saying we should wait a little while longer before we do anything more, because flying is already losing popularity, as with water when greninja was banned. 2 of the most diverse types who were at the top for so long, are now falling and leaving room for other types to shine.

 

[Chleg]

I'm going to make my opinion on the Zard-X ban.

Mega Charizard-X on paper, is very powerful on Flying. It gives access to Dragon Dance or a Will-O set while still giving decent bulk and power. Charizard-X also has the Fire typing to make it immune to Will-O-Wisp and a reliable recovery source etc..

However, giving Charizard-X has the Flying/Fire typing makes it extremely weak to force it to switch in, making it almost impossible for it to switch in without sacking something. Without Zapdos, defogging becomes much harder to execute and with Mandibuzz as a replacement, it makes your team especially weak to Thunderbolt, possibly even making your defoggers killed before you even defog. Without the Zapdos/Skarmory core, Charizard will have a much lower HP when it set up making it easy to revenge kill with Ice Shard, Aqua Jet or Extreme Speed.

Without the core, you can pressurize Flying fairly easily for them to not get up hazards themselves. In this case, types can revenge kill with Focus Sash, Sturdy or even Scarf if he attacks directly.

Now you say: "Why would you keep Charizard-X on a Scarfed Pokemon with over base 100 Speed that can kill Charizard-X?"
You just forced out Char's D-Dances and making it take another 25%, forcing it to roost or attack, depending on the situation if your opponent hasn't defog. As before, most type can put pressure on Flying, forcing your opponent to not defog etc..

But this is what I find most disappointing. People think the best way to make a team is to go "generic". People don't go out of the box and test Pokemon and movesets that might be unusual but can be executed well and also being able to check your weaknesses well, maybe like Charizard-X. For example, if you don't have rocks up on your team and Charizard has set up, you can go unexpected and use Counter Sash Sceptile.

Now, I could be very wrong but this is based on my opinion. I think Charizard-X shouldn't be banned and people just need to look a bit more, spend a bit more time on teams.

P.S. I never said all types can reliably just bop Charizard..

 

[feen]

ElectricApples it's hilarious to see how biased you are at banning Zard X, it's not a big of a threat to many types, surely, you main electric and run a Jolteon and Banded Thundurus so obviously you cannot break it. Mega Ampharos beats Zard X as well as Thundurus cripples it.

What does grass have for Char x? Ah right, nothing again.

Also stop giving pointless calcs of how it will 6-0 grass because it's not setting up on Loom, Venusaur, Serperior, Celebi, Ferrothorn (Twave Variants, if ur not running then smh), Cradily (Toxic). It has to find a set up opportunity without getting statused which, Grass monotype is completely filled with.

Now, tell me what pokemon does bug have to counter Char x? Oh right, none. They may slow char x down, but they cant get rid of me completely and he will come back to destroy bug.

Bahaha the only mons it can set up on is Forretress and Scizor so you have to play around them also, if you fucking see a Zard X, you shouldnt break ur sash Galvantula, as well as Pinsir can revenge kill. Furthermore, Flying already has a fucking hard time against a LO Genesect and that's a good set if you're not running then click x.

What does steel have for Char x? Only thing i can think of is Heatran with balloon, assuming char x's only attacking moves are flare blitz/fire punch and EQ. If the heatran's balloon is gone, gg. Dont say scarf exca cuz ddance makes char x outspeed everything.

ROFL this is hilarious. NOBODY RUNS 3 ATKS DD ZARD. IF ITS DD ITS DCLAW AND FBLITZ SO TRAN WALLS THEM. If you run EQ then just sack Ferro and go to the perfect wall for it. It's not setting up infront of Skarm (U see a zard infront of you, if you don't whirlwind, click X), Ferro (Twave is more common, also Leech Seed then mindgames by switching and playing around), Exca, Empoleon (Torrent boosted scald cuz AV Empo hits hard), Bisharp, Doublade (Tanks a hit at +1 so just SD while he DDs).

What does Ice do to Char x? Avalugg can "stall"(sike) it maybe but it doesnt stop char x completely. Same deal with bug.

What does fighting have for Char x? I personally dont know anything about fighting, but once char x has 2 dances up, its gg.

Ice has Mamo, Kyurem-B, Glalie, Sharders which all stops Zard from setting up. Why are thinking Zard have set up in the first place? Think of how it is gonna set up. Furthermore, THERE ARE NO MONS IN FIGHTING THAT WILL LET A CHARIZARD X SET UP.

So just start using better shit and get good at the game and stop complaining you're the one who's lost here.

 

[Sabella]

Does anyone moderate the forum we need to stop people who are posting uneducated opinions on here

 

[EV]

Does anyone moderate the forum we need to stop people who are posting uneducated opinions on here

You can post uneducated opinions all you want (this isn't an OU suspect thread after all), but you can't base your argument off ad hominems. If I see an overly aggressive post I will moderate it. Otherwise, focus on the conversation and try to persuade an uneducated poster instead of encouraging the mods to delete their opinion.

 

[Entei]

Let me break down what Char-X does to the types, and what those types can do back: ( IMO :/ )

- I apologize beforehand for messing up the order between what ZardX can do and what the Type can do back, I am just too goddamn lazy to fix it :s

Fighting
If the Zard X user finds ANYTHING to set up on, theyre very lucky imo :/ +1 Zard does sweep everything but like FSash Breloom /CScarf Terrakion
The only scenario i can think of is , setting up on a switch out, because the opponent might think they need that certain mon, other than that? nothing, IMO.

Keldeo? No lol ~~~ Terrakion? LOL? ~~~ Cobalion? Twave yo mum ~~~ Hawlucha? Pray its not Unburden ~~~ Conkeldurr? EQ + Drain + Mach.. Im not gonna go on, I have like 17 more types .-.
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What Fighting does to CharX ?
TWave Cobalion,,FSash Spore/Rock Tomb/Mach Punch Breloom,,Scarf/Specs/LO/SubCM Keldeo,,Scarf/Band Terrakion,,EQ/Drain Punch/Mach Punch Conkeldurr - ETC.
Very hard for the ZardX user to Setup against, and hence, not do as much as fat ElectricApples said: ↑

Electric
Zard X does usually sweep Electric teams, by its own even.
It can sweep, without setting up even, just by spamming DClaw/FBlitz. If it does set up though, Electric usually does not have a chance, unless it gets to somehow Paralyze w/ like Sturdy Magnezone or Thundurus-I , or live a hit with Zapdos and Toxicate it.
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Well, I agree, this is extremely a tough Pokemon for Electric to get rid of, but Electric can do what's it's best at, Paralyze it to death.
Get a para on it, probs with Magnezone/Thundurus-I and hope for hax.
What happens next is up to the Elecric user. Best way would probably go to Ampharos , mega, and STAB Dragon Pulse does the job.

Fire
In this case, it depends on the Fire user's team.
If the fire user runs Heatran/Arcanine/Entei/Infernape/RotomH/Infernape or even Zard X themselves , then the Zard X (Flying) user will most likely, have a problem setting up, or even sweeping.
DClaw/EQ/DDance - that combination of moves, does usually solo Fire.
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Then again, if the Fire user has any of the above mons, or some others which I obviously forgot to mention, then it is, a lot more than just stoppable.
Sash / LO / Band Infernape - CCombat/EQ/Taunt Infernape does a number to CharX, so does Intimidate Arcanine w/ Espeed, Balloon EPower Heatran, Espeed/Stone Edge/Bulldoze Entei, ETC.

Water
Water is also very problematic for ZardX. It cannot setup on anything, gets Walled/TWaved/Toxicated by Slowbro, but might aswell pull off a kill or two with its awesome power.
-------
The only thing it could setup on would probably be Empoleon, which also hits hard w/ Surf/Scald/HPump.
Grass
Here too, much like against Electric, ZardX usually pulls off a solo sweep, with, or without Dragon Dance. STAB Tough Claws boosted Flare Blitz OHKO's almost everything in its way, and it usually gets to setup early.
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But, it could also go this way: Wearing it down w/ Mega Venu, or TWaving it w/ Ferrothorn and making it lose shit tons of HP, or putting it to sleep and then completely destroying it W/ Sash Spore/Rock Tomb/Mach Punch Breloom/ hit it with a STAB Rock move with Cradily or like Dragon Pulse with Serperior.
As you can see, ElectricApples , Grass DOES have checks to CharX, so pls dont :;

Bug
Bug can pretty easily take ZardX down. IMO That is.
We have Ice Beam Sect, that gets a SpA boost on its send-in, We have Scarf MoxieCross that can take it down With EQ/Stone Edge, We have Mega Pinsir that almost OHKOs it with Return, We also have Shuckle to encore its DDance, we have Armaldo to tank a hit and OHKO back with Stone Edge, Even Sash Thunder Galvantula, does quite alot, and may get a Para!
So Im not exactly sure what are you talking about, ElectricApples :/
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Now now, ElectricApples , I do agree ZardX does a number to Bug.
It has awesome Potential, setting up one Dance, and probably sweep everything!
Then again, it can only set up on Forretress/Scizor , as fat Arifeen said ↑.

Poison
Zard X can, not easily, Set up on a Pokemon like Scolipede( Complete Baton Pass Set = No Attax ) , Weezing ( And then get ripped by Haze ) , predict a switch out.. Aaand thats about it.
You dont have to setup to win against Poison, considering its not that hard.
You cant get WoW'd by Weezing, and you get to outspeed everything but Crobat Scolipede and Gengar.
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What leverage does Poison has over Zard X?
Nidoking,,Nidoqueen,,EQ/RockSlide Drapion,,Sucker Punch/Taunt Skuntank,,Mega Venu with EQ/Leech Seed/STAB Sludge Bomb does a surprising 50% which forces a roost. and a shitton more.
Not entirely a problem, tolerable, and doesnt cause too much damage to the team.

Fairy
Azumaril? Twave Reflect Klefki? Scarf or Mega Fairy STAB Gardevoir? Scarf/Twave Air Slash Togekiss spam? Counter or even Unaware Clefable? Mega fucking Diancie?
You cant tell me you can setup on any of these, MAYBE besides Clefable.
You literally lose a STAB move (Dragon)
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While you cant use Dragon Claw/Outrage, you can still Spam FBlitz & Roost and do a number, only things that are actually stopping you are Azumarill and Diancie.

Dark
Megas: Sharpedo/Tyranitar to literally destroy it.
- Mega Absol maybe with Sucker Punch?
- And Im only mentioning Mega Sableye to remind you to ban that shit :(
Crawdaunt too does a number on it, Mandibuzz also kind of walls it, not letting it dance considering it almost always runs Foul Play, Bisharp w/ SuckerPunch, ETC.
Or a standart Sableye w/ Taunt & Foul Play to wear it down.
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The Zard X user could try Setting up on Mega Sableye, or a standart one ( Ambitious af hoping it runs like Confide or some shit over Foul play )
Other than that, it does a decent job jst DClawing/Flare Bombing everything.

Ghost
Aegislash could PROBABLY take a FBlitz and OHKO back after WP boost with Shadow Ball, and if it doesnt, KO the next turn with SSneak.
Scarf Chandelure does like 65% to ZardX with SBall, live a hit of DClaw, and KO back with another Shadow Ball.
Iron Defense Jellicent also , kind of, walls it, and is able to spam shadow balls & recovers and tear it down.
Mega Banette with TWave/DBond XD
Mega Sableye cant do crap, unless Zard X is sent in later in the game when it has 84123017 boosts and it can do a ton of damage with Dark Pulse :P
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I agree the above are NOT very reliable, and so stating this:
Zard X does usually single handedly sweeps Ghost teams :/

Steel
Screens / TWave / Foul Play - Klefki,,,,ABalloon EPower/AncientPower Heatran,,,,ScarfDrill,,,,Empoleon,,,,Sturdy Twave Magnezone,,,,Scarf EQ Gross (Which I started seeing a lot lately. )
Steel DOES have its ways to take down ZardX.
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While saying that I cant ignore the fact a lot of people run Blitz/EQ combo along w/ Roost&DDance.
That Combo, after a single Dance, could sweep steel. (Except for Heatran cause Flash FireA Balloon)

Normal
Toxic/Twave Chansey,,,the recently common Foul Play/Twave Porygon2,,,Band/Scarf Diggersby,,,Sash Spore Smeargle,,,Starapor,,,Mega Lopunny/Pidgeot,,,and literally fucking Ditto.
Normal has its own annoying shit
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Then again, if it gets to setup on Chansey ( only if it runs something like: StealthRock/Recovery/Heal Bell/Seismic Toss ), it could change the game entirely, even after one DDance.

Dragon
Scarf Dragon, Scarf Another Dragon, Scarf this Dragon, Scarf that Dragon.. Glare/DTail Druddigon, Slow it down with Goodra... MALARIA, which KIND OF forces Zard X to gtfo.
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If you get to setup a dance, that would be ONLY on a switchout, and that too, will only happen if youre in a situation of Zard X VS Non Scarf & Below 100 Speed Dragon.

Ice
Avalugg can take a hit and payback with Avalanche/Earthquake, which usually forces them to roost, but your (The Ice user) Earthquake does more than their roost, so they either switch out and you get to do something other than spam EQ (Yay),,, they either kill you , with very low hp, which is where your Scarfer/Base 100+ Comes in and take it down, or they just die to EQ Spam. Or Roar perhaps?
SSmash Closyer - gg
Mamoswine's Thick fat lets it take a hit and OHKO w/ EQ.
ETC.
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Surprisingly, Zard X does not have a safe setup, MAYBE except avalugg if youre willing to risk your best Anti-Ice Pokemon.
When it does, somehow, probably on a switch, it does sweep Ice.. Avalugg does do a number on it. KEEP THAT IN MIND.

Rock
Tyranitar/Aerodactyl/Diancie- Mega's or not, RIP Zard X- Going on is useless.
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Not being able to DDance about 95% of the time, still does a decent job w/ EQ and DClaw.

Ground
Smooth Rock Meanie, Sand Rush Meanie, Thick Fat Meanie, Suspected Flying Meanie, Water Meanie , Mega Dragon Meanie. #Yeah!!!
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Impossible to DDance on, unless the Ground user has technical issues with their mouse and are unable to click EQ. Does do a decent damage on Gastro/Mamo but that's about it.

Psychic
Pre DDance: Latios/Latias , Toxic/TWave SlowbroDBond CScarf Gardevoir? Mega Hyper Voice/Taunt Gardevoir? Specs Meloetta?
Post DDance: Slowbro ._.
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ZardX is hard to get rid off for Psychic, Especially because Mew can't WoW, much like Poison, only Psychic doesn't have as much checks to it.

Flying
CharX
---------- FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!
CharX

TL;DR
The above tells you about BOTH points of view of : A Type vs Zard X(Flying).

Zard X might be a win condition against some types, but NEVER by its own.
The opponent mustn't let the ZardX user set up.
If that's inevitable, Possibly against (Electric/Fire/Ghost) , then Zard X should be looked into more seriously.

If it ends up getting banned, keep in mind Flying loses Another incredibly reliable Sweeper, and lately, a Defogger.

So if it does get banned, I plead you to consider bringing Zapdos back.

 

[Zane0144]

Whoa whoa, calm down there omniax. I think you need to factor in special defensive Zard before you continue. Galvantula and sect aren't much of a threat then. Meaning it can set up on them as well. SpD Zard is pretty deadly to bug

Now you may say, if it's SpD then Hera kills it or w/e. Well the biggest thing about Zard x is the unpredictability. There's no way to know which set it is until you hit it. By the time you find out it could be too late.

P.S not arguing for Zard ban but keep the facts straight

 

[i'm sora]

Whoa whoa, calm down there omniax. I think you need to factor in special defensive Zard before you continue. Galvantula and sect aren't much of a threat then. Meaning it can set up on them as well. SpD Zard is pretty deadly to bug

Now you may say, if it's SpD then Hera kills it or w/e. Well the biggest thing about Zard x is the unpredictability. There's no way to know which set it is until you hit it. By the time you find out it could be too late.

P.S not arguing for Zard ban but keep the facts straight

i run semi spd bulk zardx, and galvantula thunder usually does around 40% to me, with a 30% chance to paralyze. most run sash, so that's another ~40% and 30% chance to para. omniax has a ton of good points to counteract some of the ones you think are kind of iffy, and ice beam dealing about 25%-30% still chunks pretty hard, considering how many bug teams tend to hazard stack.

 

[Zane0144]

i run semi spd bulk zardx, and galvantula thunder usually does around 40% to me, with a 30% chance to paralyze. most run sash, so that's another ~40% and 30% chance to para. omniax has a ton of good points to counteract some of the ones you think are kind of iffy, and ice beam dealing about 25%-30% still chunks pretty hard, considering how many bug teams tend to hazard stack.

That 30% is pretty laughable when you have roost. Unless it switches in unmega'd w/rocks and takes an ice beam that turn. It's just something to roost off. And flying still has a slight advantage in keeping rocks off the field when vs bug imo.

And 40%? Surely you jest. Even a 252 hp adamant Zard only takes 27% or so from galv Thunder. The para chance is a bit of a threat, but is bug really going to risk it's galvantula on a para chance vs the Zard x? I doubt that

 

[Kammi]

Just commenting something on the post by OmniaX (I know you're not done yet, but just an observation)

It seems like the ability for Charizard-X to wreck most of the types it's said to tilt the matchup in (i.e. Bug, Grass, Ice, etc) all hinge on the ability of zard to pull off a D-Dance. Since that really is situational and depends on the players' abilities to keep pressure on / make opportunities, how is this going to be treated in the argument? Being completely honest, most of the checks/counters mentioned in that post are ripped apart after one d-dance, but then again, like in Fighting's case, if pressure is kept up then there will be no opportunity.

As an example, the checks you mentioned Ghost has (talking about this one because it's the type I'm most familiar with) are all REALLY situational.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 207-244 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (if it has EQ or hazards are up, which is really easy to do vs. Ghost, rip)
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aegislash-Shield: 308-366 (95 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (ripperoni, good luck with the KS mind games, but if it boosts when you shield the rest of your team is done too)

I did notice you said it usually sweeps Ghost teams single-handedly, which is an accurate statement given these calcs, not to mention Ghost usually has somewhat of a difficult time pressuring flying and can't really OHKO Zard with anything bar Golurk EQ (which gets outsped and dies anyways, and tbh who brings in their Charizard X on a Golurk??) so it has an easy time setting up. Therefore, to make OmniaX's post a more general statement...

Charizard X is really difficult for any type with a reliance on Will-O-Wisp for defensive capabilities (Psychic bar Slowbro, Ghost (Mega Sableye is so useless vs this thing), Poison, Fire in some cases) as well as any type that is more balanced/defensive play and can't keep up the offensive pressure enough to ensure that Zard can't set up (because let's be honest, after this thing gets up a d-dance it's really, really scary for ANY team). On top of that, any type that Zard's STAB is super-effective against has issues, besides maybe Bug (I agree with Omniax in that Bug has multiple answers to this thing).

Zapdos nerfed Flying's defensive core, but Zard is part of the offensive core. I'm not really leaning one way or the other on the ban (well, the biased side of me says ban it because Ghost has no answers), but it probably should be officially looked at regardless. It is definitely an S-rank mon, acts as the win condition in many of Flying's matchups with other types, and has the potential to single-handedly sweep several types if played right. As Zane0144 mentioned, there's also the possibility of the sp.Def set, but I think that most people's complaints are directed at the D-Dance variety due to it's amazing offensive capabilities (however, sp.Def set wrecks other types and sometimes screws over people's planned checks, as he mentioned in his post about Bug).

tl;dr If your team lacks the ability to maintain significant offensive pressure or stop Zard-X before it sets up (or if your team is weak to its STAB or is just defensively lacking in general), you're screwed. Not leaning for ban one way or the other since Zard-X's replacements in Mega-Altaria and Mega-Gyarados are also extremely frightening offensive boosters, and I don't really feel that it's fair to ban 3 of Flying's megas.

Side note: I noticed a lot of arguments about sash this or that stopping Zard-X, but with a team like Flying that has multiple Pokemon available to set hazards (notably Skarmory), a sashed Pokemon isn't really a check. In general, it's bad to make an argument based around a sash Pokemon, since that's extremely unreliable and situational.

 

[i'm sora]

That 30% is pretty laughable when you have roost. Unless it switches in unmega'd w/rocks and takes an ice beam that turn. It's just something to roost off. And flying still has a slight advantage in keeping rocks off the field when vs bug imo.

And 40%? Surely you jest. Even a 252 hp adamant Zard only takes 27% or so from galv Thunder. The para chance is a bit of a threat, but is bug really going to risk it's galvantula on a para chance vs the Zard x? I doubt that

okay yes flying can keep rocks off against bug pretty well, but genesect/galvantula can still threaten the defoggers trying to do that. no, i don't jest, as i said a semi bulk zardx. i don't run complete hp invested zard.. nor do many others. and if char switches into rocks, even mega'd, galvantula can toxic/t-wave in the turn zard takes to roost the damage off, then smack it in the face with a thunder. no cleric on flying wants to switch into galv thunder either.

 

[truedrew]

Like I really think electric apples is never going to post retarded shit again so we can give them some reprieve as everybody has dumped their 2,3&4 cents about zardx and what all it sits on and slays or whatnot.

Trying to focus on something entirely new here (sue me if it isn't relevant) but with the increasing number of complaints one can see a established "trend" of sorts
a) Landorus I is on everybody's hit list
b)We forgot about mega sableye (don't just say it's usage is not that high as we can all ESPECIALLY AGREE in monotype usage is not relevant to a mons viability eg: zard y on flying maybe very low but it still can destroy many types like ice or steel (focus blast is a thing people) or grass or even bug with team support)

Those two mons can be very potent so a majority of monotype cores and easily have an overwhelming amount of team support except sab on ghost idk but they should definitely be topics of discussion seeing as if it wasn't for an upstart, they were the major monsters being discussed to an extent

Also what are people's thoughts on eviolite normal is it hard to beat is it annoying or just there I'm trying to gather input on what beats/is beaten by them

 

[i'm sora]

Like I really think electric apples is never going to post retarded shit again so we can give them some reprieve as everybody has dumped their 2,3&4 cents about zardx and what all it sits on and slays or whatnot.

Trying to focus on something entirely new here (sue me if it isn't relevant) but with the increasing number of complaints one can see a established "trend" of sorts
a) Landorus I is on everybody's hit list
b)We forgot about mega sableye (don't just say it's usage is not that high as we can all ESPECIALLY AGREE in monotype usage is not relevant to a mons viability eg: zard y on flying maybe very low but it still can destroy many types like ice or steel (focus blast is a thing people) or grass or even bug with team support)

Those two mons can be very potent so a majority of monotype cores and easily have an overwhelming amount of team support except sab on ghost idk but they should definitely be topics of discussion seeing as if it wasn't for an upstart, they were the major monsters being discussed to an extent

Also what are people's thoughts on eviolite normal is it hard to beat is it annoying or just there I'm trying to gather input on what beats/is beaten by them

eviolite normal is just really annoying. if you take that away from them you essentially destroy normal. it has a ton of good/even matchups, but with the amount of fighting coverage/knock off they're definitely dealable.

 

[Entei]

Like I really think electric apples is never going to post retarded shit again so we can give them some reprieve as everybody has dumped their 2,3&4 cents about zardx and what all it sits on and slays or whatnot.

Trying to focus on something entirely new here (sue me if it isn't relevant) but with the increasing number of complaints one can see a established "trend" of sorts
a) Landorus I is on everybody's hit list
b)We forgot about mega sableye (don't just say it's usage is not that high as we can all ESPECIALLY AGREE in monotype usage is not relevant to a mons viability eg: zard y on flying maybe very low but it still can destroy many types like ice or steel (focus blast is a thing people) or grass or even bug with team support)

Those two mons can be very potent so a majority of monotype cores and easily have an overwhelming amount of team support except sab on ghost idk but they should definitely be topics of discussion seeing as if it wasn't for an upstart, they were the major monsters being discussed to an extent

Also what are people's thoughts on eviolite normal is it hard to beat is it annoying or just there I'm trying to gather input on what beats/is beaten by them

Drew, you have a fair point, but let's wait a bit.

We are in the middle of suspecting Smooth Rock.
( Nothing is happening ATM, but the convo we had before ElectricApples decided to share his biased hate towards ZardX, is probably enough to decide, considering we are not getting our own suspect ladder. )

Meanwhile I think we should keep discussing ZardX.
When the final verdict about Smooth Rock will be decided, and only then , ~I~ think we should discuss other stuff.

We do not want to make it messier than it is.

 

[Alexis Breeze]

I think before even getting clear on Smooth Rock/Ground nerf, we should ALL agree on a way to deal with meta balances. Like, ok we don't have a suspect test, what are we doing now? Just posting stuff for the sake of it? How is that influencing what Anttya or someone else is doing? Whoever posts the most wins (proban vs not ban)? How about we come up with a sorta voting procedure somehow on what should be done? I feel like we don't agree on many things so might as well at least agree on how changes are being made. That is, if you don't want surprise bans like what happen to Zapdos (not necessarily bashing the decision itself, just reminding people that no one seemed "warned" about it)

 

[Kammi]

Just for reference Alexis Breeze, I believe the current system is something like a council of Monotype staff that review forum posts and decide amongst themselves what should be banned/talked about in the metagame based on arguments they believe are well-made; however, I also believe this should be improved. The Zapdos ban was just the start, and it proved that this council can really do anything they would like, whenever they would like, without much discussion from the general community at all. I feel like we could definitely use some positive changes to the system.

 

[North]

I think before even getting clear on Smooth Rock/Ground nerf, we should ALL agree on a way to deal with meta balances. Like, ok we don't have a suspect test, what are we doing now? Just posting stuff for the sake of it? How is that influencing what Anttya or someone else is doing? Whoever posts the most wins (proban vs not ban)? How about we come up with a sorta voting procedure somehow on what should be done? I feel like we don't agree on many things so might as well at least agree on how changes are being made. That is, if you don't want surprise bans like what happen to Zapdos (not necessarily bashing the decision itself, just reminding people that no one seemed "warned" about it)

The problem is we can't have a suspect test because people will vote in favor of their favorite types instead of what's best for the metagame. The best course of action monotype can take is to have the council state possible bans in this forum, and then have it discussed among the community.

 

[SaNeski]

We all know what happened with the Zapdos ban. The "council" picked a paper out of a hat, lottery style, and gg, Zapdos got banned.

Flying lost a reliable defogger and a t-bolt tanker which doesn't get ohko'd by ice beam ... it's technically a nerf, let's just go with it. 10/10 process IMO.

If anything, stop posting on here and start praying to based god Arceus that zard-x gets picked the next time the lotto comes around.


(Before you get your panties in a bunch, there's a 99% chance that's not what actually happened. I'm using satire to address the way in which zapdos got banned)

 

[North]

We all know what happened with the Zapdos ban. The "council" picked a paper out of a hat, lottery style, and gg, Zapdos got banned.

Flying lost a reliable defogger and a t-bolt tanker which doesn't get ohko'd by ice beam ... it's technically a nerf, let's just go with it. 10/10 process IMO.

If anything, stop posting on here and start praying to based god Arceus that zard-x gets picked the next time the lotto comes around.


(Before you get your panties in a bunch, there's a 99% chance that's not what actually happened. I'm using satire to address the way in which zapdos got banned)

Zapdos was banned because it was really the only reliable way to "nerf" flying. If flying were to lose Charizard then the type can still recover using other mons like Gyarados and Articuno as an ice check and mons like Thundurus for electric checks. Getting rid of Zapdos got rid of exactly what flying needed to lose in order to no longer become the "click buttons and win" type that it was. Without an extremly reliable defoger in the form of Zapdos flying now resorts to other, less reliable defogers like Togekiss, Articuno, or even Charizard. Just saying it was "picked out of a hat" is kind of just ignorant to say to a council that is trying to balance the metagame. Yeah i do believe that just banning it out of the blue was not exactly the best course of action, but ultimatly I think it was the right decision.

 

[Sabella]

SaNeski and electric apples you both need to think about what you say before you post on here. You both are posting uneducated passive aggressive comments that are false to what the staff decides. In all fairness the monotype players could evennt even have vote both from what north said but also because the players are uneducated. You shouldnt be aloud to post dumb uneducated comments on here someone will read it and believe it.

 

[SaNeski]

sat·ire
ˈsaˌtī(ə)r/
noun

1. the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's actions or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.

Sigh, my disclaimer failed.

They didn't pick the name out of a hat c-north, it probably was a thought out process with zapdos the most logical of outcomes. But we don't know exactly what happened and i used exaggeration to point out the no-one outside the council knows what really happened. We are putting the pieces together because of what was told to us and what we can see from the zapdos ban aftermath.

C-north, your points are valid and those are the posts that should be made to influence the councils decisions not defend a surprise desicion that we are not involved in.

And booty, calm down. Don't throw around uneducated accusations just because you don't understand the style of writing. Humble yourself.