Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[The N@me User]

Nothing happened on tera because the community (including me) agreed that it should go in discussion, but was too lazy to get suspect requirements??? It is what the majority of the people (including me) thought was wrong, but were too lazy to fix it and that is literally why despite the pro ban threads nothing happened.

You have a point there, because the first Suspect Test (the for Natdex iirc, correct me if I'm wrong) resulted in a DNB by two votes.

And I was one of those that voted in the first test but not the second, so I agree to some extent that the second test itself wasn't taken as seriously.

Thirdly though, and this is contentious, but it's known that there was a large group of voters not present in the first test due to the language barrier literally rallying up fellow DNB voters that hadn't participated in the discourse and first test at the time, and while this isn't wrong for the greater community to have a hand in what stays and goes, it feels wrong that the other non-English communities weren't given the same call to arms that would've probably equalized the added votes.

I'm not saying definitively that it would've been banned, but why would that particular community matter more than the other non-English speaking communities who weren't participating in the first or second suspect test?

I think a third one is totally fair, personally, as I think reaching out to everyone who plays the tier would be worth getting a definitive suspect test going, but of course DNB voters are going to have the general attitude that it shouldn't be suspected again.

 

[ant4456]

My thoughts is that there is no way to really sell a third Suspect Test without the tier looking wild, but I do think the "keep suspecting until you get the result you want" argument is flawed because,

Yeah

We should (from a "who cares how it is done if it makes the game better" perspective) keep pushing to get the right thing to happen, because democracy in game design was a mistake

That being said, working in the framework of Smogon, I do not think there is a way to sell it as previously said. Kinda just have to take the L and leave it as is. DLC2 doesn't give anything that makes Tera more easy to justify a suspect for, or anything that changes its place in the meta really. It's the same.

 

[1234hjkl]

While I really hate Tera and would love another suspect I think we should hold on that topic for now. NatDex received a big shake up of new mons/moves and stellar Tera. I think we should let the meta settle down a bit before we do anything else. Could use another survey though last one was like.... almost three months ago?

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

The only valid argument about Tera ban Is that it makes games surprising. Incredible! Most of the time, it's a teambuilding issue. If it's Not, then the said problem Will get banned. To ban such a thing, ALL Tera would ve problematic. But you firstly can't Tera mega evolutions, you can't Tera+Z-move, and you can Tera only Once. The difference with dynamax Is that every single pokemon could win a duel If dynamaxed. You want You toxtricity To win against a blissey? No problem, max poison ups spatk and you can now spam boomburst To death! You Will surrly dIE To that supereffective move? No problem! turn into blissey dynamax and you'll have double HP To take The hit! While Tera Is: You fear that hit? Change type! Get At best a Mid defensive type. If We tera'd into double typings, itd surely be problematic. +Most of the time Tera turns weaknesses into neutralities and you quite dont get sup bulk. Now ogerpon-w Is a problem. Even ferro loses duel. FERRO, the best counter To physical water type. That, Is Too much. Now yes, ogerpon-w TERA Is v strong, But u prefer water absprv To a spdef boost That Is Not enough To put a substitute on defensive zapdos.

 

[Jônatas Braz]

oh let me see how tera will shift the meta... how's gambit doing rn? oh they're in ubers cuz we took actions and learned to play with tera
View attachment 581519


EDIT: to make this not a one-liner, I do not think the new tera type is worth investing even on contrary users. Stella tera blast just doesn't hit strong enough to "neutral hit and ko everything". For example, in serp's case,
+6 200 SpA Serperior Judgment vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Heatran: 102-120 (26.4 - 31%) -- 11.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
if it wants a coverage move, it is for sure more effective to just bring hp fire/ground/rock whatever or even tera blast with the specific type because being able to kill one target is better than not being able to kill anything.

My point is that kingambit is not even broken itself, Its only about the mechanic.

 

[Nashrock]

My point is that kingambit is not even broken itself, Its only about the mechanic.

I really don't wanna add more meaningless one-liners to this post, but I felt like this point can be further explained. I can't come to a conclusion on gambit's performance without tera, but why do you separate a mechanic apart from the pokemon itself? It's like mawile will be a bad mon if there isn't mega-evo as a mechanic, or if you feel that mega is a too specific mech, roaring moon won't be that broken here without z move.

The most important part is, if a mechanic is available to every pokemon and some mons are just better at abusing them, why aren't these mons too strong? Kingambit clearly is one of the best tera users but you're saying "kingambit itself isn't even broken people are simply stupid to use tera on a shitmon and it's only tera that makes it good"?

 

[Oculars]

EDIT: to make this not a one-liner, I do not think the new tera type is worth investing even on contrary users. Stella tera blast just doesn't hit strong enough to "neutral hit and ko everything"

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Stellar Enamorus Tera Blast (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Heatran: 144-170 (37.3 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Stellar Enamorus Tera Blast (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Heatran: 216-254 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This Specs enam is 2hkoing fat spdef walls like spdef tran easily with rocks up, scarf sets can also make excellent snowballing cleaners. serp is a bit iffy on stellar id rather run ground/fire on serp but on enam its entirely worth it

 

[Aesiro13]

I really don't wanna add more meaningless one-liners to this post, but I felt like this point can be further explained. I can't come to a conclusion on gambit's performance without tera, but why do you separate a mechanic apart from the pokemon itself? It's like mawile will be a bad mon if there isn't mega-evo as a mechanic, or if you feel that mega is a too specific mech, roaring moon won't be that broken here without z move.

The most important part is, if a mechanic is available to every pokemon and some mons are just better at abusing them, why aren't these mons too strong? Kingambit clearly is one of the best tera users but you're saying "kingambit itself isn't even broken people are simply stupid to use tera on a shitmon and it's only tera that makes it good"?

I'll happily explain Kingambit's broken status without Tera in just two words: Supreme Overlord. This ability paired with a STAB Sucker Punch and access to Swords Dance made Kingambit the undisputed king of mindgames, winning nearly any interaction you could possibly have with it and forcing every team to have some kind of Dark resist to even stand a chance against it. It even had some respectable bulk, meaning that even if you win a mindgame, you aren't even guaranteed to OHKO it.

 

[Sulo]

Hello everyone!
The council has decided to administer a new tiering survey to gauge thoughts on the new metagame, what actions should be taken, etc.

Let us know your concerns by clicking the link above. Thanks for your participation!

 

[R8]

Tryna keep Tera free is massive cope cause there's been like two whole discussion threads about it filled with pro-ban statements and nothing happened. Like can yall pipe down we just now having a unstable metagame and yall raising valid concerns about ts again. We shouldn't talk about an ogerpon-w sus instead of a problem that really exists in the first place. Simply banning tera would close a huge can of worms and make the tier a more balanced place.

Saying that nothing happened is just factually wrong, in fact they resulted on exactly what was requested by the community, which is a suspect test. What's the point of running suspect tests if you just run them again and again until you get the outcome you agree with? Yes, sometimes a lot of people disagree with the outcome of a suspect test: that's something expected. Is it a reason to overthrow the suspect? Absolutely not.

Thinking the tier is not fixable as long as Tera is around is also a complete myth. You have to realize that every tera abuser isn't equally strong, and that the metagame did improve every time a tiering action was taken. Think about the mons that were complained about right before the dlc2: Tapu Lele, Iron Valiant, Ogerpon-Wellspring and Gliscor. Of course, Tera has a lot to do with them feeling overwhelming, but they pale in comparison to other stupid tera abusers we had before (Sneasler, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, Kingambit, Ogerpon-Hearthflame... or even stuff like shedinja or espathra lol).

I do wish Tera was gone, and I did vote Ban in both suspect tests, but people voted to keep it, and there is no point to the suspect system if we do not respect its result. Yes, you can argue that one side had better arguments than the other, but realistically that's not a reason to redo a vote lol. As long as you make the effort to get the reqs, you can vote for whatever side you want, by following an actual reasoning or not, or just by flipping a coin, no one will control you unless you want to make a repeat of the XY shadow tag suspect test drama, and this is something that you will have to accept with any voting system.

Nothing happened on tera because the community (including me) agreed that it should go in discussion, but was too lazy to get suspect requirements??? It is what the majority of the people (including me) thought was wrong, but were too lazy to fix it and that is literally why despite the pro ban threads nothing happened. Also I genuinely have not seen a good anti Tera ban argument in a while on any thread so please state the actual valid defenses that lots of people seem to currently bringing up, enough for stopping a 3rd suspect test because it is clearly not that important of an issue that needs to be addressed. Who is raising valid defenses lil bro.

To actually, intellectually answer this post:
No, nothing happened on tera in the first suspect because the community thought that it was too early (evidenced by quite a few DNB voters saying that it was because of the test being too early) and it wasn't banned on the second test because we, as a community, ranted about it in discussion threads (with some of the best players of ND, mind you, joining us in our rants) without voting in the suspect test because we were too lazy and assumed others would vote ban for us. We need to, and can, do better in these suspect tests, but we need to have them in the first place. You seem to misunderstand the key reason why Tera was not banned in the two suspects.

Two things:
-If you didn't vote because you were lazy, then you have no right to complain : it's honestly kind of astonishing to me to see this reason being mentioned: every single vote count, and you should never rely on others doing the work for you. I won't develop much more since any close suspect you can think of is a good proof of that.
-With how much NatDex expanded as a format, I can guarantee you that what happens in the forums is not representative of the entire NatDex playerbase, which is the actual reason why the second tera suspect did not result in a ban supermajority in the first place. A significant part of the playerbase does not interact with the forums, either because they are just not aware of what forums are for, because of the language barrier, or just by lack of time/interest/whatever.

 

[Epicgamergod69]

Bro on the gang unban magearna fr i feel it has a good arguement so does deo speed>

Ignoring the obvious lack of substance in that post... What???? Magearna has a plethora of sets it can run such as zmove, cm, shift gear, stored power, etc and is bolstered by tera, also dexoxys speed is the single best ho lead LITERALLY EVER. also it can run specs or band and has an unmatched speed tier. Do not unban either of those please, thanks

 

[Yxzwilliam]

Ignoring the obvious lack of substance in that post... What???? Magearna has a plethora of sets it can run such as zmove, cm, shift gear, stored power, etc and is bolstered by tera, also dexoxys speed is the single best ho lead LITERALLY EVER. also it can run specs or band and has an unmatched speed tier. Do not unban either of those please, thanks

ok so the bald eagle has awakened. Man deoxys speed isnt even good lets keep its p banded or specs aint even good bro have u seen its lower than average spa and atk? magearna that was me being funny . second unban gambit atleast bc pult meta was goat meta lets keep it p.

and stop useing big sentences like ( Ignoring the obvious lack of substance ) very hard to understand :3
and on the gang i can run greninja specs banded switcheroo which outspeeds everything in the ocean (not land) and every scarfer outspeeds 504 fr besides ur ass hoopa scarf and samu.
they unbanned deo speed in ou. Natdex just fr wannabe special ong LIKE ADD GAMBIT BACK ON THE BROS

 

[adem]

It is what the majority of people thought was right thats quite literally why despite the pro ban threads nothing happened.

its annoying when people say this, at least get your facts straight. No, a majority of people did not think that, the latest tera (when it was stopped) only hit 45% of the votes, it did not hit a majority. Suspect tests work on the base of a supermajority, and when it couldnt hit that (45.1% of the voters voted for DNB), the vote was announced. If you want to count the votes post announcement too, (which majority was DNB), it would still only be 45.5%, so no, not majority, never was majority.

the reason no one is raising a "good pro ban argument" is because every single one of them have been said in the past 3 tera threads lol. And none of them have actually been refuted. What do you want people to say, copy paste posts from 5 months ago??

and people like you (and others who have the tera stockholm syndrome) keep telling everyone that theres no point in trying lol.

oh let me see how tera will shift the meta... how's gambit doing rn? oh they're in ubers cuz we took actions and learned to play with tera

minor note but no, its because that was the only other option to have a playable meta once the tera test failed lol, if we "learned to play with tera" we wouldnt have had to ban 5 more mons in the next 3 months, bffr bro

 

[Yxzwilliam]

its annoying when people say this, at least get your facts straight. No, a majority of people did not think that, the latest tera (when it was stopped) only hit 45% of the votes, it did not hit a majority. Suspect tests work on the base of a supermajority, and when it couldnt hit that (45.1% of the voters voted for DNB), the vote was announced. If you want to count the votes post announcement too, (which majority was DNB), it would still only be 45.5%, so no, not majority, never was majority.

the reason no one is raising a "good pro ban argument" is because every single one of them have been said in the past 3 tera threads lol. And none of them have actually been refuted. What do you want people to say, copy paste posts from 5 months ago??

and people like you (and others who have the tera stockholm syndrome) keep telling everyone that theres no point in trying lol.



minor note but no, its because that was the only other option to have a playable meta once the tera test failed lol, if we "learned to play with tera" we wouldnt have had to ban 5 more mons in the next 3 months, bffr bro

(adem sweet sweet adem) first of all ima be mature for once, and just say tera has made mons that are ou uber if thats not enough evidence that its bad for the game here is some more. It makes people with less teambuilding skill have a chance against a huge weakness thats very unfair for people who have put time into building over the years. Its making players use to not having to put in the time and effort into practicing teambuilding. It's very ill and if u can't see that your in the same boat as a idiot

 

[adem]

)adem sweet sweet adem) first of all ima be mature for once, and just say tera has made mons that are ou uber if thats not enough evidence that its bad for the game here is some more. It makes people with less teambuilding skill have a chance against a huge weakness that very unfair. Its making players use to not having to put in the time and effort into practicing teambuilding. It's very ill and if u can't see that your in the same boat as a idiot

dawg i am saying we should ban it you absolute carrot

 

[Yxzwilliam]

dawg i am saying we should ban it you absolute carrot

buddy buddy calling me a carrot is unfair. I've seen many of your post saying its healthy so for u to switch up is so cool.
srry I interpreted wrong but don't call me a carrot when your a grown man and I'm not even in high school however thanks for being pro ban :3

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Saying that nothing happened is just factually wrong, in fact they resulted on exactly what was requested by the community, which is a suspect test. What's the point of running suspect tests if you just run them again and again until you get the outcome you agree with? Yes, sometimes a lot of people disagree with the outcome of a suspect test: that's something expected. Is it a reason to overthrow the suspect? Absolutely not.

Thinking the tier is not fixable as long as Tera is around is also a complete myth. You have to realize that every tera abuser isn't equally strong, and that the metagame did improve every time a tiering action was taken. Think about the mons that were complained about right before the dlc2: Tapu Lele, Iron Valiant, Ogerpon-Wellspring and Gliscor. Of course, Tera has a lot to do with them feeling overwhelming, but they pale in comparison to other stupid tera abusers we had before (Sneasler, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, Kingambit, Ogerpon-Hearthflame... or even stuff like shedinja or espathra lol).

I do wish Tera was gone, and I did vote Ban in both suspect tests, but people voted to keep it, and there is no point to the suspect system if we do not respect its result. Yes, you can argue that one side had better arguments than the other, but realistically that's not a reason to redo a vote lol. As long as you make the effort to get the reqs, you can vote for whatever side you want, by following an actual reasoning or not, or just by flipping a coin, no one will control you unless you want to make a repeat of the XY shadow tag suspect test drama, and this is something that you will have to accept with any voting system.

With all due respect, the post you're responding to was a parody of this post

Tryna ban Tera is massive cope cause there's been like two whole suspects abt it and nothing happened. Like can yall pipe down we just now having a finally stable metagame and yall crying about ts again. We should talk about a ogerpon-w sus instead of a problem that doesn't even really exist in the first place. Simply unbanning Tera would open up a huge can of worms and undo a lot of progress that has happened to make the tier more balanced.

that doesn't offer much of anything against Terastallization and instead makes random arguments against another Tera suspect without evidence.

Two things:
-If you didn't vote because you were lazy, then you have no right to complain : it's honestly kind of astonishing to me to see this reason being mentioned: every single vote count, and you should never rely on others doing the work for you. I won't develop much more since any close suspect you can think of is a good proof of that.
-With how much NatDex expanded as a format, I can guarantee you that what happens in the forums is not representative of the entire NatDex playerbase, which is the actual reason why the second tera suspect did not result in a ban supermajority in the first place. A significant part of the playerbase does not interact with the forums, either because they are just not aware of what forums are for, because of the language barrier, or just by lack of time/interest/whatever.

Again, I think my post may have been misinterpreted. I'm criticizing myself and the pro-ban crowd for being lazy and not getting requirements. At the same time, I'm complaining about the state of Terastallization in the metagame. I'm not saying criticism of oneself absolves all responsibility, but I am asking for a chance to redeem ourselves and get rid of the mechanic if we find that we need to do so through the suspect. Additionally, while it's true that the forums don't usually represent the totality of the playerbase, I'd be willing to hazard that someone who doesn't check forums wouldn't really participate in suspect tests either, and that the discussion threads, while not representing the totality of the ND playerbase, would represent the majority of those who wish to get suspect requirements.

Cheers.

 

[adem]

buddy buddy calling me a carrot is unfair. I've seen many of your post saying its healthy so for u to switch up is so cool.
srry I interpreted wrong but don't call me a carrot when your a grown man and I'm not even in high school however thanks for being pro ban :3

anyways so this doesnt get nuked, what are peoples thoughts on the new paradoxes? Im a big fan of bolt right now, very interesting dynamic as a breaker, he might be too strong in the future tho idk. Boulder is annoying bht uve warmed up to him, idk might be bc im ass at HO lol but I really struggle to clean with him, especially with how hard it is to setup. Gouging im also kinda 5050 on, havent tried it personally but when ive faced it its either farmed or been balls. Crown is cool defensively, i think offensive sets r bleh, but av/lefties is like a btech SM Magearna which is cool.

 

[Yxzwilliam]

Last post for today is TAPU LELE lets get down to the calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 181-214 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Possible damage amounts: (181, 184, 186, 188, 190, 192, 194, 196, 199, 201, 203, 205, 207, 209, 211, 214 252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Tapu Lele Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran in Psychic Terrain: 161-190 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recover 252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Psychic Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 248 HP / 128 SpD Scizor-Mega in Psychic Terrain: 169-199 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

Either yall gonna ban tera or keep banning ou mons like lele PICK COUNCIL PICK
sealoo being a smart ass never gets old

 

[Thedeathsofbeings234]

After reading several posts, I want to put my input on tera and what I think of it. (this is all in my opinion so don't take it too seriously)
I think that at this point, suspecting tera for a third time is just kind of pointless. Especially when the meta is already doing quite well for itself. Yeah it has flaws sure but the tier has gotten a whole lot better than it was say 6-7 months ago.

I also think that banning tera wouldn't change all that much anyways in terms of bans. The mons that got banned this gen would have still been banned anyways in one way or another. (with the exception of melmetal and eleki) All what tera really did is just make them harder to deal with.

That being said, I'm not exactly opposed to a third tera sus if it ever happens somehow. My point is just that the meta is fine as is and that banning tera just wouldn't change much.
I would make this post much longer and more educated but I'm too lazy.

Anyways have a good day everyone!
Also please never bring up tera ever again I swear.

 

[about15gals]

View attachment 582157
anyways so this doesnt get nuked, what are peoples thoughts on the new paradoxes? Im a big fan of bolt right now, very interesting dynamic as a breaker, he might be too strong in the future tho idk. Boulder is annoying bht uve warmed up to him, idk might be bc im ass at HO lol but I really struggle to clean with him, especially with how hard it is to setup. Gouging im also kinda 5050 on, havent tried it personally but when ive faced it its either farmed or been balls. Crown is cool defensively, i think offensive sets r bleh, but av/lefties is like a btech SM Magearna which is cool.

personally I think bolt is kinda w/e, solid b rank mon. Gouging is legit though and it's pretty cool, boulder im relatively neutral towards, but I haven't seen it a lot on ladder or used it so idk (also imo crown kinda blows ass idt it does anything whatsoever)

 

[Dahness]

View attachment 582157
anyways so this doesnt get nuked, what are peoples thoughts on the new paradoxes? Im a big fan of bolt right now, very interesting dynamic as a breaker, he might be too strong in the future tho idk. Boulder is annoying bht uve warmed up to him, idk might be bc im ass at HO lol but I really struggle to clean with him, especially with how hard it is to setup. Gouging im also kinda 5050 on, havent tried it personally but when ive faced it its either farmed or been balls. Crown is cool defensively, i think offensive sets r bleh, but av/lefties is like a btech SM Magearna which is cool.

i really love gounging fire, it looks like the thing megazard x always wanted to be, raging bolt is fine, iron crown is very bad, i do see iron boulder becoming real once the meta settles down a bit more

 

[Nashrock]

View attachment 582157
anyways so this doesnt get nuked, what are peoples thoughts on the new paradoxes? Im a big fan of bolt right now, very interesting dynamic as a breaker, he might be too strong in the future tho idk. Boulder is annoying bht uve warmed up to him, idk might be bc im ass at HO lol but I really struggle to clean with him, especially with how hard it is to setup. Gouging im also kinda 5050 on, havent tried it personally but when ive faced it its either farmed or been balls. Crown is cool defensively, i think offensive sets r bleh, but av/lefties is like a btech SM Magearna which is cool.

Gouging fire is at the borderline of sus for me ig. Both band and dd sets are unstoppable especially in sun. Bolt is kind mild for now but i definitely see the potential in it as it can in theory break every ground type and sweep like another kingambit. Boulder hits fast and strong but it's fragile to almost all priority moves. So far I only managed to make it work behind screens but I'm not sure if this will be further developed. Crown has its niche as a psych resist and fast pivot with access to vs + fs which is cool. AV set pairing with supports like alo sounds promising.

 

[1234hjkl]

Hello everyone!
The council has decided to administer a new tiering survey to gauge thoughts on the new metagame, what actions should be taken, etc.

Let us know your concerns by clicking the link above. Thanks for your participation!

Hot takes incoming straight from the oven. Hate Tera, makes meta bad, get rid of it, my enjoyment is 1 and balance is 1. Hate this mechanic.
Of all the new mons the only one I think is suspicious is Gliscor, the others I think are too soon to get a good opinion whetever or not are broken and the old ones I still don't think are broken.

G.Fire and Boulder look like the biggest targets to me, G.Fire is one of the few dragons in the meta who can get a win against Valiant and being one if not the top sun mon, it kinda wishes Wake was here to make the same core it does in OU.

Boulder is the fastest paradox, has a bordrline broke move in Cleave and is a one of the best Tera abusers depending of the Tera you pick you can bypass anything. Bolt is good and Crown is decent, but neither feel overbearing.

Valiant doesn't really like those new mons, all off them either force it to Tera to not die to their stabs and Boulder outspeeds it and can survive even it strong stabs like CC and MB.

Lele I don't really think it's that overbearing, like it's one of the best scarfers but I get the feeling its kinda locked there and can't afford to go slower to pack a Z or a specs, especially now with the new paradoxes who all have ways to increase their speed while while tanking at least one hit from the scarf sets or in the case of Crown flat out resisting it's stabs, except bolt of course becaue that one is too slow.

Wellspring is still great but I think it will become less obnoxious during this DLC2 Meta, can't see it getting the boot.

Gliscor is an obnoxious little shit, if in OU it was an big annoyance here it's 2-3 times worse, it got spikes while keeping roost, I can't say it's broken, but it's such an disgusting little shit I would be happy if it goes, got a 3 from me.

 

[Nish the Great]

As everyone is saying Tera stellar is broken, I think a complex ban of contrary+ Tera stellar would be more efficient for the meta

Tera stellar contrary mons have been super underwhelming for me. Serp just doesnt really get enough out of spamming it given how much it needs the repeated +2 boosts to do actual damage(tera fire/ground with the other hidden power is probably better), and enamorus is still pretty easy to wall out or rkill at the least. Also there is a 0% chance a complex ban is ever getting passed, its more likely that (if this strategy was at all broken) we would just ban serp and enam.