No Choice: Gen IV OU Balanced team

[2sly4u]

Intro:
Hello, 2sly4u here with my third and probably final Gen IV team. I'm calling this a balanced team, but it probably leans a bit more towards the offensive side of things. I have three Choice users, which may seem like a lot, but I haven't been hindered by it yet. Please note that I'm not looking for a huge overhaul here; I've had good success, and I'm just looking for a few tweaks here and there. That's not to say I'm opposed to changing out a pokemon or two, as long as there's a good reason. Without further ado, here's my team at a quick glance:

Team Building Process:

Hide

I knew I wanted to try out Choice Band Gyarados since I've never seen one and it seemed neat.

Celebi does a decent job of covering Gyarados' weakness, and attacks from the other side of the spectrum. Her versatility sold me, so onto the team she went.

Since I'm using two offensive pokemon as my starting point and one was weak to SR, I decided I needed both hazards and a Rapid Spinner. Forretress is one of the best at both, and he gave me a sturdy physical wall.

Since I've already got hazards, I didn't need my lead to set them up. This left me free to use one of my personal favorite anti-leads, Azelf.

I had a physical wallbreaker in Gyarados and a special attacker in Celebii, but still lacked a formidable late-game sweeper. Lucario is among the best, so I gave him a chance.

I still had a big speed issue, as Celebii was my fastest pokemon. Scarf Infernape completed my FWG core and can spam Close Combat to weaken Lucario's counters

After twenty-or so rounds of testing, Lucario just wasn't pulling his weight, even after I switched Celebii to a Swords Dance Baton Pass variant to support him. Since I lacked a pokemon to tank Special hits, I switched him out for Specially Defesnsive Zapdos.

After some great suggestions from BKC, Bubbly, and Tomohawk9, this is the team in its current form:

Closer Look:

Flygon@Choice Scarf
Jolly Nature, 252Att/4SpD/252Spe
Earthquake
Outrage
Thunderpunch
U-Turn

Flygon replaces Azelf, and gives me another fast revenge killer to pair with Infernape. Between their two U-Turns, I can do a great job at maintaining momentum for myself, which pairs well with Forry's entry hazards. Earthquake and Outrage are standard STAB. Thunderpunch now occupies the last slot so I can reliably take out Gyarados should it set up. Right now I'm bouncing between him and Forretress in the lead slot to see which I like better.

Gyarados@Choice Band
Adamant Nature, 72HP/252Att/184Spe
Waterfall
Ice Fang
Earthquake
Payback

Gyarados is my main wallbreaker, and does a good job of luring out and KOing many pokemon who normally cause problems, such as Jolteon. Most people expect Gyarados to Dragon Dance turn one, so they think they can get their fast, frail pokemon in scott free. However, STAB waterfall KOs many of these threats. Ice Fang provides great coverage, and makes Gyara my best option against pokemon like Dragonite. Earthquake is hardly ever used, but does more damage to pokemon like Metagross than Waterfall. I'm torn for the last moveslot and have tested both moves. I find I only use Stone Edge on other Gyarados, but Payback is only good if I predict they'll switch in a Rotom, but leaves me a sitting duck should they switch in almost anything else. Waterfall 2HKOs most Rotoms anyways, and OHKOs every normal Gengar. I changed the EV spread to a bulkier one, as Bubbly pointed out my problems with Gyara's longevity. As such, Payback now occupies the last slot instead of Stone Edge.

Forretress@Leftovers
Impish Nature, 252 HP/252Def/4SpD
Payback
Stealth Rocks
Rapid Spin
Spikes/Earthquake

Forretress is my hazards setter, and my go-to pokemon for things I don't have a great switch-in to. Payback nails ghosts who try to block my Rapid Spin, vital against Stall since my Special Wall and Wall breaker are both SR weak. Stealth Rocks provide the all-important residual damage, while Rapid Spin is...Rapid Spin. I've been using Spikes in the last slot, but I haven't used it much since I fear becoming setup fodder while laying them. I'm considering Earthquake since it allows me to nail Heatran on the switch and lets Forry play a bit more of a tanking role. I'm happy with him and he's been pulling his weight just fine, but I feel like this team doesn't unlock his full potential.

Spiritomb@Leftovers
Calm Nature, 252 HP/140Def/116SpD
Shadow Ball
Will-O-Wisp
Rest
HP Ground/Sleep Talk

Spiritomb replaces Zapdos, and all credit goes to Tomohawk9. Spiritomb lacks the reliable recovery Zapdos did, but more than makes up for it with his spinblocking ability and lack of weaknesses. Ever since getting rid of Azelf, I've had issues with Machamp and he patches those up nicely as well. Shadow Ball is used over Dark Pulse so I can hit fighting-types for neutral damage, and I can PP stall the only common normal-type, Blissey. Will-O-Wisp lets me better handle any physical threats. Rest, while not ideal, is Spiritmob's best recovery option and lets him play a status absorbing role as well. Right now, I'm using HP Ground right now so I can catch Heatran by surprise, but Sleep Talk helps against most everything else. My only complaint about Spiritomb is that I now have a touch of trouble against Suicune since Celebii doesn't like eating boosted Ice Beams.

Infernape@Choice Scarf
Naive Nature, 64 Att/252SpA/192 Spe
Fire Blast
Close Combat
U-Turn
HP Ice

Infernape is my revenge killer, and bona fide MVP. He's my last line of defense for many prominent threats, and also functions as a great cleaner. This is the standard Choice Scarf set, so I'm not going to say too much about it. Fire Blast and Close Combat are STAB, and great for spamming after I weaken my foe's infernape checks. U-Turn is great for scouting, and helps me maintain momentum wonderfully when both he and Flygon are alive. HP Ice handles Gliscor and the dragons nicely, but I don't have much issue with any of them thanks to Gyarados, so I'm thinking about Grass Knot. Between he, Celebi, and Flygon I have three very different threats ready to end the game at a moment's notice, which helps me take dow a wide variety of teams.

Celebi@Leftovers
Timid Nature, 252SpA/4SpD/252Spe
Nasty Plot
Grass Knot
Psychic
Earth Power

Celebi's set has changed many times, but I've finally settled on the rare Nasty Plot variant. She gives me a true late game cleaner, while also completing my FWG core. After one Nasty Plot, Celebi can threaten many of the game's top threats, and has just enough speed to sweep. Grass Knot is used over Energy Ball for the added power against most of OU, but Vaporeon has proven to be annoying so I may change over. Psychic provides dual STAB, and is less risky since the most common Dark-type, Tyranitar, is maimed by Grass Knot. Earth Power lets me beat Heatran, but leaves me open to Scizor. I didn't want HP Fire since it lowers my Speed IVs, meaning I won't Speed tie with other positive natured base 100s. I'm very happy with Celebi's synergy and I like the offensive nature of the set. The problem is that he doesn't really ever get off a late-game sweep. Normally, he dies late-game, and I just clean up with Infernape.

Threat List:

Hide

I'm not going to list every pokemon in OU, just the ones that give me trouble.

Suicune: It's not THAT annoying, but Celebi can only eat one boosted Ice Beam, so I need to hope a +2 Grass Knot KOs. I'm thinking about giving Celebi a bulkier set to help with this.

Heatran: Annoying since Spiritomb can't wall it for very long, and can't even touch it without HP Ground. Infernape/Flygon can revenge kill and Gyarados can tank a hit if in good health, but all of them (especially Infernape) are hard to get in. If it has Substitute, I'm almost certainly losing something.

That's my team! Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[sandshrewz]

Oh yea! Nice! I like your team. Who said 3 choice users is a bad idea? 3 choice users mean you're going to put a hard stop on many set up sweepers. Really good! As for forretress, you considered earthquake. That isn't a bad idea, i've used forretress myself and catching mganezons and heatrans on the switch is nice. However, you need 112 Attack EVs to achieve the OHKO on the scarf magnezones and heatrans. Both of which shouldn't be a huge problem since you got infernape.

There is one problem I see with 3 choice users, they are all going to be criplled by status. They are all physical attackers, azelf and gyara can get burnt and all of them can be paralysed. Celebi has natural cure to act as a status absorber but it is too taxing for celebi alone to absorb so many status and lack of instant recovery. Since your team objective isn't for celebi to start a sweep, I suggest changing celebi's set to Tinkerbell set.

@lifeorb
Nature: Modest
EVs: 232HP 240SpA 36Spe
-Leaf Storm
-ThunderWave
-HP fire/Psychic/U-turn
-Recover/Rest

It allows you to hit hard and still have Twave like zapdos. However, i'm not really surewhy you would use zapdos instead of blissey. Pressure doesn't have much use other than trying to PP stall. So why not try blissey before rejecting her? She has access to aromatheraphy to heal your choice users and wish to heal them up since they lack recovery and constant switching would drain their HP. She is also a better special wall. With Twave from either celebi or zapdos, kingdra can be more easily countered and force it to use rest. Hit hard with leaf storm on the turn it rests or get in gyara to intimidate and hit with a CBed mobe. Also, trick from azelf is the best way for you to stop crocune so saving it early in the match is better. So you might want to put infernape as lead instead. People expect a fake out sash lead but you can surprise with a scarf u-turn especially against azelf and u-turn allows you to switch to whatever you need to counter the lead.

So in summary,
celebi to tinkerbell set
blissey over zapdos
infernape to lead.

hope I helped :)

 

[2sly4u]

Thanks for the rate, Sandshrewz. I'll be sure to test out the Tinkerbell set again. I've actually already given it a go, but I felt that without Nasty Plot I was vulnerable to Calm Mind abusers. I don't want Blissey because she's major setup fodder and can't keep up offensive pressure, like Zapdos can. I'll try Infernape in the lead spot, but Azelf is doing just fine so I doubt the change will stick. Few people expect a Choice Scarf set no matter where he is in the lineup, and I'd prefer to not reveal that surprise turn one. Also, Celebi is actually my best answer to CroCune since I can get to +2 no problem (no one expects NP) and maim with Grass Knot. I see what you mean about status, but normally I just absorb an obvious status move with Forretress since he's basically only there to set up hazards and spin anyways.

EDIT: I tested out Tinkerbell for a few matches, and wasn't disappointed. It just felt like a tradeoff; I had an easier time taking down status team, but a much harder one wrapping up late-game. Even if NP Celebi died before finishing a sweep, it still seriously weakened walls/killed enough pokemon for Infernape to clean up. I'll keep bouncing back and forth until I decide which one I like better. I'm also thinking about a Calm Mind set for the balance between late-game sweeping and tanking potential.

 

[BKC]

You'll have major problems vs. stall, since half your team is grounded and two of your others are SR weak; Forretress can't spin with defensive Rotom-A running around, seeing as Payback is about a 3HKO before it burns you. I think Azelf is the most replaceable member of the team, as it's a somewhat outdated anti-lead with lead Machamp's usage dropping. So, I would move Forry to the lead slot and replace Azelf for Expert Belt Tyranitar. Not only does this set trap Rotom-A [free Rapid Spins for Forry!], but it also catches opposing Forretress by surprise, leaving stall teams without their Rapid Spinner and eliminating the need for you to have a spin-blocker. Once the opponent figures out that you're running an E-Belt set, they'll attempt to wall it with Gyarados - that's when you Thunderbolt and open up an opportunity for Infernape to run wild.

Tyranitar @ Expert Belt | Hasty | 164 Atk / 100 SpA / 244 Spe
Pursuit | Flamethrower | Superpower | Thunderbolt

Just something to consider, nice team and props for using CB Gyara.

 

[bubbly]

Hey sly :) Good to see you doing an RMT of your own. However there are a fair number of threats which are going to cause you problems:

Tyranitar = Massive. You literally cannot stop DD sets bar Choice Scarf Infernape, which tends not to last long and can't safely switch in. There's also nothing on your team which can really take its attacks, while ScarfTar can also occasionally trap your Azelf and Celebi.

Gengar = Another huge issue. You can force it out thanks to your faster pokemon but if it gets a Sub that's at least one dead pokemon right there. Having only one pokemon which can take a hit from it (Zapdos) is not great.

SD Lucario = Sets up easily on Gyarados locked into Payback / Stone Edge, or Forry, and the only thing you have against a +2 Luke is trying to get Gyarados in for Intimidate, which without a bulky spread is extremely risky.

Starmie = Celebi can get around it with good prediction and you might be able to surprise it when it comes in on Infernape, but still a reasonable threat.

Zapdos = Really really nasty. If it can get around your own Zapdos, which LO offensive variants as well as SubRoost with Toxic can both do, it can cause ridiculous damage since you really have no way at all of killing it off.

Heatran = Comes in easily on Forretress, maybe Azelf, and offensive versions are going to cause problems. Infernape can revenge but it can't take a LO or Specs Fire Blast and neither can an offensive Gyarados. If it runs Substitute and Zapdos isn't at 100% HP you'll usually always lose a pokemon when it comes in.

Jirachi = Most teams without a spdef Heatran or Hippowdon can have issues with Jirachi sets. Yours can handle it to an extent but you've really got no way of beating hax variants and a CM version with Flash Cannon only really fears Azelf's Trick and Infernape, both of which are unreliable checks.

Dragonite = Absolute WORST threat. Eats Celebi and Forretress for breakfast, sets up a Dragon Dance and gg. You have really nothing to stop that happening.

Thats a pretty intimidating threatlist, but I think its possible to get around it without changing the structure of the team too much. I'd also say that, since the basis of the team was CB Gyarados, you're not abusing that as well as you could - usually you'd use either a Fighting type sweeper like SD Lucario, or an offensive water type which appreciates opposing Rotom, Zapdos, waters and grass types being weakened.

In terms of catch-all checks, the best thing I can think of to help you is a mixed defenses Hippowdon, which helps significantly against all your threats except Starmie. However, this doesn't fit with the mentality of the team.

In addition, I don't really like Forretress on your team, since you really don't have anything to support it and it really only contributes Rapid Spin to help out Gyarados.

I think the best way to go about things would be to start with a Choice Scarf Scizor in place of your Azelf. It does a similar job to your Azelf, possibly a better one against some leads, and you'll only really lose out against Machamp (which are much less common than they used to be). However, this also patches up your problems with Tyranitar, Gengar, Lucario, Starmie, and Dragonite to an extent. To cover any remaining issues like Zapdos, Heatran and Jirachi, you could also run either of Heatran or Hippowdon over Forretress, which I feel is fairly unnecessary like I said before. Heatran in particular synergises nicely with Infernape and benefits from Gyarados' ability to weaken opposing water types.

On the other hand, a simpler solution would just be to run a Choice Scarf Flygon over Azelf - although I personally prefer the previous solution because Flygon is a less effective lead, doesn't help against Lucario, and is a shakier check to many other threats.

tl;dr version:

1. Choice Scarf Scizor > Azelf, SR Heatran > Forretress

Good luck with the team, hope these suggestions help.

 

[2sly4u]

Thanks to both Bubbly and BKC.

@BKC:I'll be sure to try Expert Belt Tyranitar, thanks! I haven't faced a good stall team yet, but I can see your point, and I'll probably get destroyed. I'm a bit worried about Forry's tanking potential if he's in the lead slot though.

@Bubbly: I read and really appreciated what you said about supporting Gyarados better. Maybe I'll look for another Sweeper who Gyarados supports better (any suggestions?) I'd actually tried out Lucario, but he didn't really pull his weight. I actually haven't had problems with any of those pokemon except Heatran, which I'll add to the threat list. Gyarados does a good job against Dragonite especially. Of course, it's always possible that I didn't encounter any of them played competently. However, I have been disappointed by Gyarados' longevity as you said, so I've moved some speed EVs into HP, which has helped against Heatran immensely. I agree with Forry being a tad out of place, and I'll definitely test out both Heatran and Hippodon, and Flygon afterwards.

EDIT: Heatran added to the T.L.
Update: I've tested out all of the suggested pokemon, and Flygon, Scizor and Tyranitar have proven most useful. T-Tar would be a sure thing and helped immensely against stall, but the Sandstorm he brings really hurts the longevity of all my choice users. Scizor did a good job and surprised many people with his Scarf, but gave me three huge Fire weaknesses. Flygon was good as well and I appreciated the added Electric immunity, so right now I'm going with him over Azelf. I tried out both Heatran and Hippo, but without Forry I was raped by hazard teams.

 

[Tomahawk]

Hey, cool team, Scarf Infernape is awesome!

Anyways, have you had trouble with Life Orb Starmie? Sure, Infernape and Flygon can continously U-turn, but they can't switch as they're KOed by a Life Orb boosted Hydro Pump. Gyarados can't take a Thunderbolt, Forretress can't take a Hydro Pump, and Celebi can't take an Ice Beam. Ice Beam only does 46.5% - 54.8% to Zapdos, but that's still a 2HKO meaning he can't switch in either, as he is also 2HKOed by Hydro Pump. With a bit of residual damage it seems like a problem. The lack of a spinblocker also makes he can just spin your Stealth Rock and Spikes away easily, which is Starmie's main threat to your team. You probably manage to play around it though.
Then there's Machamp. He can scare oout Forretress or Infernape or Flygon, and 2HKOs your switchin. Gyarados is 2HKOed by Stone Edge even at -1, so a mispredict means you're in a lot of trouble. DynamicPunch confusion rate also means your switchin only has a 50% chance of attacking if you do predict correctly.

I would replace Zapdos with a Specially Defensive Spiritomb. Spiritomb is a rare mon, but it's actually really effective. He can take whatever Starmie uses with a Specially Defensive spread and Rapid Spin immunity. He can then proceed to trap Starmie with Pursuit. He can also switch in on DynamicPunch with immunity, and WoW Machamp. The exact set is:

Hide

Spiritomb @ Leftovers | Pressure
Calm | 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 SpD
Will-O-Wisp / Pursuit / Shadow Ball / Rest

You could also replace Pursuit with Sleep Talk, but that leaves you unable to trap Starmie.

As for minor changes, Payback > Ice Fang on Gyarados. From my CBRados experiences, I found that Ice Fang wasn't really useful, seeing as Ice Fang doesn't really hit anything Payback can't, except for Shaymin. Payback hits Gyarados' main counters hard like Celebi, Rotom-A and Starmie.

I also recommend Fire Blast > Overheat on Infernape. That way, you can have a lot of endgame sweeps just by getting Nape into Blaze range and Fire Blasting to victory. I also recommend HP Ice > HP Electric because Dragonite seems more troublesome than Gyarados.

Good luck!

 

[2sly4u]

Thanks for the suggestions, Tomohawk! I've never had serious problems with Starmie, but I have to hand it to you: Spiritomb is a beast. He tanks hits like a champ and PP stalls better than Zapdos. He also helped the Machamp problem I've had since getting rid of Azelf. He was a great addition to the team. I'm using HP Ground over Pursuit though since every Starmie I faced stayed in, and Spiritomb is my best defensive answer to Heatran.

I tried Payback over Ice Fang, but it left me too open to Extremespeed Dragonite since Infernape couldn't reliably revenge it. I made the Fire Blast and HP Ice changes, then gave Flygon Thunderpunch so I can still handle Gyarados. Thanks again!

 

[kkoala]

Hide

Spiritomb @ Leftovers | Pressure
Calm | 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 SpD
Will-O-Wisp / Pursuit / Shadow Ball / Rest

You could also replace Pursuit with Sleep Talk, but that leaves you unable to trap Starmie.

That spiritomb is still 2hko'd by lo starmie hydro pump the majority of the time (even without stealth rock).

 

[San_Pellegrino]

Hi nice to see a tr making a team,

Zapdos with Heat Wave and stall teams can really dent your team significantly, Zapdos being able to at least 2HKO your whole team. Stall is an issue on paper because Forretress will be heavily limited in its job as a tank without recovery or wish support. Using Wish Blissey over Spiritomb can resolve that problem. A moveset of Wish | Protect | Ice Beam | Thunder Wave with EVs of 252 Def / 4 HP /252 SpDef and a Bold nature you will be able to take hits from all spectrums well, and heal off any damage with wish. This will give you recovery on many of your key pokemon who lack healing moves, including Infernape and Celebi. It also solves your Zapdos problem quite well.

Another thing that could improve your team is using a Rest Talk Gyarados. Although you say that Gyarados is your wall breaker, I feel like you need a status absorber w/longetivity (hence not blissey if you take my advice) as well as a phazer, since you are running a team that is particularly weak to opposing set up physical sweepers. The standard gyara is 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe, Impish and Rest | Sleep Talk | Waterfall | Roar. Waterfall gives you something to hit Heatran with, who can’t touch you unless it has hp electric, which you could obviously scout for with blissey.

You might consider running a normal mixape, but scarf infernape is really cool and unexpected, so unless dd tar starts causing you trouble (mach punch in nape would be nice here), keep the scarf nape. Energy ball is something to consider on celebi over grass knot for consistency against mons like vaporeon. Nice team man, gl!

 

[2sly4u]

Thanks kkoala and San Pelligrino. Im actually using a more specially defensive spread on Spiritomb, but I forgot to update the post. I'll test out Blissey as a wish passer, but it would open me up to Fighting types, especially Machamp. I'm hesitant to use a mono attacking Gyarados since CB Gyara gels so well because of his great coverage, but I'll test him out.

 

[fatsnorlax]

This is a nice team(:

Anyways, I've got a few tweaks to take into consideration.

First off, replace Grass Knot on Celebi for Giga Drain. This will give you a reliable form of recovery. Also, try Hidden Power [Fire] over Psychic on Celebi to take out Scizor.

Also, you may want to replace Spiritomb with Zapdos to take on Suicune and Heatran.

Set

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
Nature: Calm
EVs: 248hp/222Sdef/36spd
-Thunderbolt
-Roost
-Thunder Wave/Reflect
-Heat Wave

Zapdos can take on Heatran and Suicune quite well, which you said you had some issues with. You will no longer need a spin blocker, as most spinners are defeated by the combination of Thunderbolt and Heat Wave. IDK about the point of Reflect, I'd T-Wave, especially if Scarftran is one of your worst nightmares. Zapdos also beats Bounce varients of Gyardos if there is no hax.

Hope I helped, and good luck.

btw... The Celebi you recommend for me rocks! If you want a bulkier varient, just use that one(:

EDIT: I fought you when you were using this team.

 

[kevindurant]

Looks like you got a good team can you look at mine and give me some feedback
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3455883

 

[San_Pellegrino]

2sly4u

If you use ResTalk gyara, you shouldn't have any issues with fighting type attacks, tanking an attack then Recovering off health, since most unboosted fighting attacks on the special side won't break Blissey and most physical attackers like breloom and lucario can't touch gyarados. (if you haven't noticed yet I kind of made you a defensive core in gyarados / forretress / blissey. Again, your CB Gyarados is severely limited because of Stealth Rock and a lack of recovery, which I would at the least get some wish support for, if not from blissey then something else.

 

[2sly4u]

Thank you all for your replies

@San Pellegrino: I tested out Blissey, and she helped against many problematic pokemon. However, she left me pretty open to opposing Fighting types, even when Gyarados was a ResTalk variant. I like both her and Spiritomb, so I'll probably test them both out more extensively before coming to a final decision. As for ResTalk Gyarados, he didn't fit very well; it made the team too defensive for my liking, especially with two fast-but-frail Scarf users. Thanks you!

@Fatsnorlax: Giga Drain was a cool idea, but in practice it's much too weak. I actually already tried Zapdos in the sixth slot, but was underwhelmed and replaced him with Spiritomb. Everybody keeps suggesting the Tinkerbell set for Celebi, so I guess I'll give it another go. Thanks!

I think that just about wraps up the changes I want to make(after I decide between 'Tomb and Blissey, that is). However, if anything jumps out at anyone feel free to comment!