np: Doubles OU Stage 3 - Hate to Love You - SKYMIN HAS BEEN BANNED

[Checkmater]

I feel like the story and arcticblast's argument are not related, like at all.

Arcticblast is making a point about how 1) he has metagame knowledge and knows why skymin could be considered op and it's not purely the luck and 2) skymin really isn't all about the lucky factor. If it was it'd never be consistent. What distinguishes Skymin from shitty sets like scarf rachi is it's ability to apply pressure, not solely its flinch chance. The two combined: ability to partially immobilize and ability to have very nice coverage on waters and grasses (notably two things diancie tends to struggle with) are what make it powerful, not solely its flinch chance. The flinch chance adds to its power, yes, but I can honestly say that if it didn't have serene grace and instead had some other ability that was also partially useful skymin would still be maybe suspect worthy and definitely a threat.

Honestly pretty tired of seeing the same baseless "IT ADDS LUCK TO THE GAME" argument. You can try to say its chance to flinch adds too much to its power (as many solid pro-ban arguments have). You can't say its chance to flinch is the sole reason it's being suspected.

edit in resopnse to edit: so you're saying that sometimes there are predictions where you wonder if someone will stay in?....

And seed flare isn't a catchall "LOL YOU CANT SWITCHINTO THIS" move... there are lots of mons such as tflame that easily tank a seed flare and don't give two shits about a 68% drop chance

 

[ArthurZH]

Hello, some new thoughts about Shaymin-Sky on why I still think it should not be banned:

First off; While 120 SpAtk and 127 Speed is very gung-ho and strong etc etc, while I shall take the same stance as Articblast and ignore all the hax assuming Air Slash is 100% hit 0% flinch and Seed Flare likewise, it does not have any boosting move (okay it has...Substitute and Swords Dance. But no one uses Physical Skymin and Substitute sorta defeats the point of Sash Skymin which is one of the main problem here). In other words, the most threatening sets will be Sash, Life Orb, Scarf or Specs. All 4 equally easy to cripple with T-Wave, first easily crippled by multihit moves, Specs and Scarf a bit more troublesome but easy to play around once identified, Life Orb arguably the most dangerous if you can't bulk a hit at all. In other words, I really do NOT think it is "OP" compared to most of the metagame (looking at Scarf Lando-T, Nasty Plot Sash Darkrai, Sub PuP M-Kanga and Deoxys). We certainly have much better things to suspect and ban instead of Mr. Flying Hedgehog (woohoo).

Secondly; Typing. Grass/Flying STAB is blocked entirely by steel. In other words, if your steel mon (ie Jirachi, Aegislash etc) can live a Choice Specs Boosted Earth Power, you should be very able to beat skymin.



252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Jirachi: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Jirachi can then proceed to T-Wave, assuming it's still alive after second hit from partner. If anything tbh, you should be able to recover health and still live the next move imo unless you run max spdef for skymin then suddenly get hit by a physical move. Jirachi's partner, in this scenario, will also be able to cripple Shaymin-S or hit it hard.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 214-254 (66 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Aegislash-Shield Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 402-474 (117.8 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO

WP Aegislash also wins this Scenario. If you use Leftovers, you might be troubled, but you also have a partner.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Shuca Berry Heatran: 292-344 (86.6 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

You can even EV this further to live it 100% of the time, proceed to heat wave, and put Shaymin-sky in further trouble (Heat Wave OHKOs non-sash variants)



I'm not going to even go into Zapdos/Electric Flying types, which just blatantly puts a big full stop to Skymin's offensive capabilities. Shaymin-S needs HP Ice or it'll have to run from it, which then boils down to the player's capabilities.

However, make no mistake that it is an terrifyingly good Pokemon with the right support and good play. It deserves it's Tier 1 Ranking, and imo should NOT be banned, as we certainly have many other more things we can ban and quite a number of common things which can stop it.

Hope this helps~

 

[Checkmater]

Hello, some new thoughts about Shaymin-Sky on why I still think it should not be banned:

First off; While 120 SpAtk and 127 Speed is very gung-ho and strong etc etc, while I shall take the same stance as Articblast and ignore all the hax assuming Air Slash is 100% hit 0% flinch and Seed Flare likewise, it does not have any boosting move (okay it has...Substitute and Swords Dance. But no one uses Physical Skymin and Substitute sorta defeats the point of Sash Skymin which is one of the main problem here). In other words, the most threatening sets will be Sash, Life Orb, Scarf or Specs. All 4 equally easy to cripple with T-Wave, first easily crippled by multihit moves, Specs and Scarf a bit more troublesome but easy to play around once identified, Life Orb arguably the most dangerous if you can't bulk a hit at all. In other words, I really do NOT think it is "OP" compared to most of the metagame (looking at Scarf Lando-T, Nasty Plot Sash Darkrai, Sub PuP M-Kanga and Deoxys). We certainly have much better things to suspect and ban instead of Mr. Flying Hedgehog (woohoo).

Secondly; Typing. Grass/Flying STAB is blocked entirely by steel. In other words, if your steel mon (ie Jirachi, Aegislash etc) can live a Choice Specs Boosted Earth Power, you should be very able to beat skymin.



252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Jirachi: 258-304 (63.8 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Jirachi can then proceed to T-Wave, assuming it's still alive after second hit from partner. If anything tbh, you should be able to recover health and still live the next move imo unless you run max spdef for skymin then suddenly get hit by a physical move. Jirachi's partner, in this scenario, will also be able to cripple Shaymin-S or hit it hard.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 214-254 (66 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ SpA Aegislash-Shield Flash Cannon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 402-474 (117.8 - 139%) -- guaranteed OHKO

WP Aegislash also wins this Scenario. If you use Leftovers, you might be troubled, but you also have a partner.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Shuca Berry Heatran: 292-344 (86.6 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

You can even EV this further to live it 100% of the time, proceed to heat wave, and put Shaymin-sky in further trouble (Heat Wave OHKOs non-sash variants)



I'm not going to even go into Zapdos/Electric Flying types, which just blatantly puts a big full stop to Skymin's offensive capabilities. Shaymin-S needs HP Ice or it'll have to run from it, which then boils down to the player's capabilities.

However, make no mistake that it is an terrifyingly good Pokemon with the right support and good play. It deserves it's Tier 1 Ranking, and imo should NOT be banned, as we certainly have many other more things we can ban and quite a number of common things which can stop it.

Hope this helps~

choice specs modest skymin is a good set

daily reminder that there is a skymin set that ohkos kang
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 331-390 (94 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

anyways just an fyi the standard set currently is timid sash, not modest specs, though your points about steels not named non-shuca tran walling skymin are very valid

 

[tehy]

All right, the point I was trying to make was in fact fairly simple.

Let's take an actual scenario i've been in, Zapdos + partner vs. Skymin + mega kangaskhan. in this scenario, Skymin could easily switch out of Zapdos' HP Ice, since it's not that strong, and since none of Zapdos' moves are overwhelmingly powerful, a mispredict isn't the end of the world either. Mega Kangaskhan is already committed to taking out the more threatening partner, and it can generally tank whatever Zapdos is willing to dish out. Additionally, Tailwind isn't a big threat to your team either, and you don't benefit hugely from skymin staying in another turn.

in this scenario, it's a pretty stupid idea to Air Slash the Zapdos. either you get knocked down to your sash (a stray fake out, weak prio, or even hail prior could mean your sash was broken, and it leaves you easily revengeable by any of the same), or you do 15% damage and dont accomplish much; meanwhile, the penalties for switching are pretty low. even though your chance to flinch is higher than your chance to not flinch, that doesn't make it the good play to use air slash. Capiche?

in this situation, the bad player still has a 57% chance to not get punished for his bad play.

that's really my problem with skymin, as it stands. there's also its potential to unleash multiple flinches, as well as crucial SpD drops. Of course, it's also powerful as hell, which contributes, and I do hear it has forced out certain playstyles / made them much less viable. (i'm willing to take the word of experienced metagame players on that last one, since I acknowledge ladder won't teach me anything about this).

edit:

personally I think that the worse player winning is a prime example of uncompetitive

and that skymin's high flinch chance easily enables this

but i guess that's just dumb.

 

[Bughouse]

It seems that tehy's point is that we should ban something because bad players can get lucky with it. Which is just dumb.

 

[Lord Death Man]

I generally agree with Tehy's central point. The odds are in the "bad" players favor - I wouldn't even consider it a bad play so much as a sub-optimal play if they went for the air slash because the odds are in their favor and a normal situation where you're outright walled would be to switch, which *should* give the zapdos player a free turn to do something else, but instead Zapdos is often compelled to try and kill Skymin to minimize hax later in the match. Further, I think Skymin is used almost entirely for the hax factor even by good players - otherwise Focus Sash wouldn't really "outclass" Life Orb. What else even uses sash in doubles? What is Skymin using sash for other than a second chance at hax, and what makes that situation so useful that it opts not to run Life Orb, which is standard on literally every other offensive mon ever?

It also provides ridiculous team support by often forcing someone's hand into trying to get rid of it because it has the ability to change the outcome of games regardless of how well the other player plays against it, regardless of the other person's team composition.

 

[talkingtree]

I generally agree with Tehy's central point. The odds are in the "bad" players favor - I wouldn't even consider it a bad play so much as a sub-optimal play if they went for the air slash because the odds are in their favor and a normal situation where you're outright walled would be to switch, which *should* give the zapdos player a free turn to do something else, but instead Zapdos is often compelled to try and kill Skymin to minimize hax later in the match. Further, I think Skymin is used almost entirely for the hax factor even by good players - otherwise Focus Sash wouldn't really "outclass" Life Orb. What else even uses sash in doubles? What is Skymin using sash for other than a second chance at hax, and what makes that situation so useful that it opts not to run Life Orb, which is standard on literally every other offensive mon ever?

It also provides ridiculous team support by often forcing someone's hand into trying to get rid of it because it has the ability to change the outcome of games regardless of how well the other player plays against it, regardless of the other person's team composition.

Pokemon that can viably use sash in Doubles: Deoxys-A, Weavile, Bisharp, Terrakion, Venusaur w/ Sun support, Breloom, Darkrai?, regular Gengar, and Mamoswine. And that's just out of the Tier 1, Tier 1.5, and Tier 2 mons from the Viability Rankings. All of these are offensive mons, and all of them use sash because in Doubles, that forces the opponent to double-target them to prevent an attack, something which leaves the other team susceptible to that pokemon's partner.

The reason that Skymin runs sash is because it's a strong special attacker with weak defenses and it does a great job providing free turns to its partners. If it is holding a sash, then it has the ability to do so more than once, and forces double targets as I mentioned. I may not have enough experience for you to consider me a good player yet. But personally, when I have used Skymin, it was not "for the hax factor", but rather to check grasses like Amoongus and things like Keldeo, Rotom-W, or Mega Diancie.


No one here is going to say that Skymin is anything other than a threat in this metagame. However, I can count on one hand the number of times that it was the one I was most worried about on an opposing team, since the 'hax' everyone is theorymonning about quite frankly is not that common. Maybe once in a game it will provide an essential flinch, but it's far too pressured by any strong attacker, and therefore unable to stay in and sweep through with ridiculous luck like some people seem to be claiming.

I'm feeling like a broken record because I'm just repeating what so many other people have said, but PLEASE stop saying that Skymin is either uncompetitive or overly haxy. It's not true.

 

[Kiyo]

on tehy's post

I don't really see how a bad player winning with something should affect tiering decisions. Bad players will find ways to win regardless, and there are plenty of other opportunities for them to hax you out of a win. But the main reason I don't see why bad players winning with Skymin matters is that bad players don't play competitive Pokemon at a high level, I sincerely doubt you'll find someone who is bad enough to make the play tehy described playing in SPL or the later rounds of a seasonal / Doubles Open, and frankly idgaf if ladderscrub23 haxes me out of a game because I know I'm more than likely not going to be playing him in an important tournament setting.

While I'm typing out a post I should probably make points that are of some value to the Skymin discussion.

I'd like to adress points made by Haruno regarding Speed control as a legitimate way to beat Skymin, becuase in my experience its honestly one of the best ways to.

long posts with quotes n shit

Thunder wave - Invalid unless you either A. outspeed or B. have prankster, the former of which is restricted to deoxys/a/s which are questionable in itself and the latter being mostly seen on thundurus-i and klefki, both of which will almost certainly have it. Now although prankster thuner wave can beat skymin and a paralyzed mon is essentially a dead mon by definition, no half competent skymin user will let their skymin get paralyzed for free since skymin will almost never have a good reason to stay in and take the full para. So at best, they force skymin out but are in no ways an answer.

you argue here that thunder wave users are invalid unless they outspeed or have priority, why is this exactly? There are plenty of Pokemon that Skymin isn't threatening an OHKO on that can pack Thunder Wave, Jirachi Zapdos Gyarados etc come to mind. You also argue that if there is a blatant Thunder Wave user that Skymin's partner can't deal with that the Skymin user will simply switch out, the biggest issue I have with this is that Skymin is often used on more offensive teams that lack the defensive synergy to switch willy nilly and even ones with something to take a Thunder Wave such as Rhydon or Raikou still dislike the momentum loss caused by being forced to switch.

Weather sweepers - Seeing as how pwne states that sand/rain are trash, and thus should never be used since they're unviable, I will use the process of elimination and go to the other two weathers sun and hail. Hail itself is restricted to abomasnow (aurorus is shit) and is used solely on trick room, and difficult to use and arguably not good so I'll go in more depth when I discuss tr/priority since aboma relies more on those than its respective weather. That leaves sun sweepers which is restricted to venusaur, which can admittedly outspeed skymin in sun and ohko it, but seeing as how pretty much every skymin is sashed, skymin can live a hit and do huge amounts to venu afterward and thus leaving it crippled for the rest of the game, which again takes out sun's only fast mon which is more often than not still a good trade off for the skymin user so skymin is still relatively effective at crippling sun as well.

I don't understand how you can just write off Rain and Sand like they don't exist, they're both perfectly viable from what I've seen and two of the most common abusers being Ludicolo and Excadrill can threaten Skymin thanks to the speed boost.

Tailwind - there are zero good users of this move outside of talonflame, and tailwind itself isn't really that good as a whole due to being easily protect stalled, and same deal with thunder wave, no skymin user would stay in when tailwind is up. Next

ok, theres more than just Talonflame for setting Tailwind (Lati and Hydrei for example, albeit its probably the most reliable. Again your argument for this not beating Skymin is that you can just switch out, but I still don't see things that Skymin is commonly paired with appreciating taking the hits that come from switching.

Trick room - Skymin itself can apply pressure to trickroom teams due to its offensive nature+ air slash which makes tr very hard pressed to set up trick room if they even can at all. Though it does get forced out when TR is up, it can put immense pressure on TR teams when tr is down so skymin restricts that heavily as well.

from what I can tell the only argument here is that Skymin can flinch TR setters so they can't get it up. what happens if you don't get the flinch? doesnt like half your team just die, LOL. If anything it's not skymin putting pressure on trick room teams, its its teammates. things like taunt keldeo / talonflame and fake out from shit like kang. the only way skymin actually makes tr 'hard pressed to set up' is if it flinches, i don't really see how relying on a flinch chance is a good argument for why tr doesnt anally fist skymin.

Random Priority - Fake out/sucker punch/brave bird are all that come to mind in terms of usable priority (ice shard users suck, mach punch is resisted and weak to air slash) fake out is a very shaky answer to skymin due to protect mindgames with it. Sucker punch is mostly found on kanga which allows it to beat skymin 1v1 but sucker punch in and out of itself is unreliable bar last mon situations so I wouldn't call this the most secure way of beating skymin. Brave bird outright wins.

ice shard users don't necessarily suck, theyre just not as splashable and often not worth it so you dont see them often megasnow and weavile still fuck skymin. fake out essentially forces a protect unless your keen on wasting your sash, you cant always guarantee you ahve a protect ready to go either for that matter. regarding sucker punch bisharp is common enough that i'd argue its as important as kang imo, mawile isnt seen as much but still has it. also i dont agree with sucker being unreliable but i suppose thats more subjective. also yeah brave bird just wins, have you seen talon's usage recently?

tl;dr speed control is a perfectly valid way of beating skymin, switching skymin out of twave and tailwind only forces your teammates to take more damage, and seeing as how skymin is mainly used on ho this is really detrimental (not a lot takes hits and losing momentum loses games)

Also while I'm here I figure I should probably take some time to thank everyone I've met in the Doubles Community for being very welcoming s/o's KyleCole TGMD shrop05 kamikaze17 iliketrains11 Pocket you're cool dudes who play a cool metagame. also Stratos is somehow more of an ass than me, but he iight

 

[ArthurZH]

choice specs modest skymin is a good set

daily reminder that there is a skymin set that ohkos kang
252+ SpA Choice Specs Shaymin-S Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 331-390 (94 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

anyways just an fyi the standard set currently is timid sash, not modest specs, though your points about steels not named non-shuca tran walling skymin are very valid

Oh don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying they're bad. I'm just saying, once you know it's a choice set by calcs/EVs, you should be able to easily play around a locked Seed Flare. Of course a locked seed flare isn't the easiest, but that's why it's Tier 1. It's not like it's M-Salamence at them +6 Aerilate Return is it?

Point taken about Shaymin-S's (Or Shaymin-S'?) impending ability to destroy everything. But really, lots of specs mon are equally threatening, looking at Scarf Keldeo, Specs Hydreigon, Banded (Or Beat Up-ed) Terrakion etc. Granted, they're slower, but shaymin's frailer in typing and bulk. It's strong and fast, but imo it's not undeal-able (is this even a word grammar nazis pls help). You already need to prepare for most Tailwind teams and fast attackers: Shaymin's just another one to add on to the list.

I mean, still open to discussion.....I'm gathering what I know about Shaymin-S, and this is what I have so far.

 

[GRAND EMPRESS]

So question. Shouldn't this thing have ended by now? Just curious

 

[Arcticblast]

I'll post the voting thread when I get home tonight, sorry for the delay

 

[Lord Death Man]

The reason that Skymin runs sash is because it's a strong special attacker with weak defenses and it does a great job providing free turns to its partners. If it is holding a sash, then it has the ability to do so more than once, and forces double targets as I mentioned. I may not have enough experience for you to consider me a good player yet. But personally, when I have used Skymin, it was not "for the hax factor", but rather to check grasses like Amoongus and things like Keldeo, Rotom-W, or Mega Diancie.


No one here is going to say that Skymin is anything other than a threat in this metagame. However, I can count on one hand the number of times that it was the one I was most worried about on an opposing team, since the 'hax' everyone is theorymonning about quite frankly is not that common. Maybe once in a game it will provide an essential flinch, but it's far too pressured by any strong attacker, and therefore unable to stay in and sweep through with ridiculous luck like some people seem to be claiming.

I'm feeling like a broken record because I'm just repeating what so many other people have said, but PLEASE stop saying that Skymin is either uncompetitive or overly haxy. It's not true.

I'm going to address this backwards - the last point is entirely subjective and of course you're going to sound like a broken record when your opinion differs from others. When hax passes 50%, it becomes favorable for the user - it makes more sense to theorymon that hax would always happen than never happen after it passes the likelihood that it would happen more often than not, yet we're going for the least likely result rather than the most likely result? Regardless, I think this is the central aspect of the problem I have with Skymin - it's already an excellent offensive pokemon that also has a very good chance of getting incredible luck.

Also, people *have* been saying that Skymin is something other than a threat and it's unfair to reinterpret their arguments because it doesn't fit your position. A single flinch or drop is a game-changing, and often game-ending, occurrence that doesn't have to be in the game and I don't really get the idea that players who want it gone because of hax - and earned the requirements to vote and didn't have their opinion swayed - have less of a right to that opinion just because people disagree with it conceptually. All ban arguments, regardless of hax, are going to center on it being uncompetitive, because that's why we're suspecting it, to see if it's uncompetitive, so asking people to just stop arguing against you is ridiculous.

Also, you pretty much outright mention my problems with Skymin (Free turns, forces double targets). Skymin is definately a decent check to all those mons, but it can easily miss out on kills without Life Orb which just makes me question the validity of Focus Sash even more beyond forcing a double target. Also I hadn't checked what uses Sash, but nothing uses Sash to nearly the degree Skymin does (except Terrakion? Who I also feel is using Sash to increase chance of hax rather than for "legitimate" reasons). You're a great check to all those threats except Diancie without Sash anyway, and a better check to Rotom-Wash with a Life Orb; why is LO consider unviable enough to warrant a post on this subforum telling people not to use it if Skymin's main position was a strong, fast attacker who just outright killed things, rather than a strong, fast attacker who could attempt to throw a game into luck if put into a corner?

Edit: I'll delete this is discussion was supposed to be over, I didn't see Arcticblast had posted.

 

[Stratos]

nah keep posting right up until the result is announced

 

[Bughouse]

Also I hadn't checked what uses Sash, but nothing uses Sash to nearly the degree Skymin does (except Terrakion? Who I also feel is using Sash to increase chance of hax rather than for "legitimate" reasons).

There are plenty of other things that overwhelmingly use Sash. Terrakion yes, but here are some others

Deoxys-A
Gengar (unless Mega, but that's usually pretty obvious)
Chandelure
Breloom
Weavile

Other mons that sometimes/often use Sash (or basically always do but have low usage):
Bisharp
Abomasnow
Mamoswine
Greninja
Aerodactyl
Whimsicott
Raichu
Liepard

 

[Stratos]

Also I hadn't checked what uses Sash, but nothing uses Sash to nearly the degree Skymin does (except Terrakion? Who I also feel is using Sash to increase chance of hax rather than for "legitimate" reasons). You're a great check to all those threats except Diancie without Sash anyway, and a better check to Rotom-Wash with a Life Orb; why is LO consider unviable enough to warrant a post on this subforum telling people not to use it if Skymin's main position was a strong, fast attacker who just outright killed things, rather than a strong, fast attacker who could attempt to throw a game into luck if put into a corner?

Edit: I'll delete this is discussion was supposed to be over, I didn't see Arcticblast had posted.

what about deoxys-a? that uses sash 100% of the time and i really doubt that it's trying to fish for psycho boost crits and ice beam freezes. also srk's list is good.

Sash lets you live a hit. This is huge. Me vs Pokemon that isn't sash: im just gonna brave bird / scarf flare blitz / whatever it and it's dead woohoo! me vs pokemon that is sash: fuck if i do that stuff it's going to hit me back. Sash makes anything that is never a defensive switch-in way more of a pain in the ass to deal with, be it terrak/deoxys/skymin/bisharp (sash bisharp only isn't too common because it loses like literally every single one of its OHKOes and even then it's a good item lol).

A lot of times with Skymin, since it's kind of a fast support pokemon (all fast attackers of this mold are imo), you really need it to be attacking on a turn where it's also threatened. Example: My opponent has out Charizard/Terrakion vs my Talonflame/Skymin. This is the sort of situation where Sash really shines, and why I would never use skymin without it. Yes, a lot of time the attack you need from skymin is going to have an effect chance, or even be particularly used for the effect chance, but to say that Skymin using Sash is proof that it's unhealthy is ridiculous lol. Sash also lets skymin beat one of its best checks, Talonflame, 1v1 (air slash is a ko after BB recoil).

If you want, I can give you a catalogue a mile long of games where LO would have lost with Skymin and Focus Sash won that had nothing to do with effect chances. In fact, this is the game which prompted me to post that thread: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-79617. Focus sash is simply best on Pokemon that aren't going to be used as defensive switchins often and don't require the 30% power boost, and skymin fits in both territories.



p.s. sash skymin ohkoes rotom-w 252 SpA Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Rotom-W: 338-398 (111.1 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Checkmater]

Ok so let's get some real discussion going

Before we all start shitposting 20+pages of essays and "wow skymin can ohko rotom-wash" calcs

p.s. sash skymin ohkoes rotom-w 252 SpA Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Rotom-W: 338-398 (111.1 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

ahh someone had to do it
I just want to add that another reason that skymin doesn't really use life orb is because it isn't the type of mon that switches in. Let me put it this way: the reason you don't run sash keld is partly because it has better bulk and resists but ALSO because you're going to be switching it into things like rock slide and heatwave, whereas you really shouldn't be doing that kind of thing with skymin. Idk if I'm explaining this well lmao

edit: typoz
edit2: btw dualstatus rotomwash with no spA investment and huge bulk is the good spread ngl

 

[Arcticblast]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-ou-stage-3-suspect-voting.3547294/

VOTE

 

[Stratos]

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[Checkmater]

are all votes going to be just majority now?

I know Stratos was talking a lot about a consistent method ever since hoopa was poorly defined and stuff.

 

[Stratos]

are all votes going to be just majority now?

I know Stratos was talking a lot about a consistent method ever since hoopa was poorly defined and stuff.

@qsns: yes but our nazi overlords want skymin banned

(not a joke)

 

[Asukara]

Here's what I think about skymin

Skymin is unhealthy for the tier. It has great speed allowing it to outspeed pretty much everything, good sp atk and on top of that it has the ability serene grace with air slash and seed flare. What makes it unhealthy, is air slash as it has a 60% flinch chance instead of 30%. Its also hard for mons that check skymin to switch in vs skymin as seed flare has a high chance of dropping the target's Sp def. Skymin's air slash gives skymin's partner a big advantage as air slash mostly flinches the opposing mon and it's partner can do some big amount of damage without facing much problems. Though there are various ways of dealing with it. Skymin really struggles vs trick room teams as it is very fast, so when trick room is enabled it isn't able to do anything as it's defenses are poor. Scarfers also handle skymin extremely well and priority moves are very successful vs skymin such as kangaskhan's sucker punch, talonflame's brave bird, thundurus' twave etc. There is no skill needed in spamming air slash and this is what makes the tier unenjoyable. Due to these reasons, I'm going with ban.

 

[Shadestep]

sam and colbrushie told me I had to post here to have the ability to vote, so here's my two cents about Skymin:

a speedy, relatively bulky and hard-hitting mon which is hard to prepare for. even though it is Doubles and putting yourself in a good position where one of your mons can 'freely' attack it, due to good match-up, it can still wear down ur entire team and you cant do shit against it.
i struggles a lot with Skymin during the test as it (in some games) completely flinched down my TR setter(s), making it almost impossible to win.

this is one of the reasons Skymin is broken, and entirely unhealthy for the tier. it's ability to skill-lessly break apart certain teams is stupid as shit, and especially when paired with good teammates, its almost unstoppable.

as said in the previous post, Priority moves like Kanga's fake out + sucker punch, twave from thundy, brave bird from talon etc do cripple shaymin quite bad, but that isn't a good argument for it to stay IMO. because of this, I'm voting Ban.

 

[Arcticblast]

Sorry TFK and Cynthia's Chomp but the voter list is final

 

[Shadestep]

man.. this was my first suspect ever, how was I supposed to know? does this 'rule' apply to all tiers? :s

 

[P is For Penguin]

man.. this was my first suspect ever, how was I supposed to know? does this 'rule' apply to all tiers? :s

If its stated in the op there is posting reqs, then yes