np: Doubles Stage 2 - Suspect Discussion

[Pocket]

I mean Taunt on Thundurus could have cockblocked the entire strategy...

 

[BlankZero]

I mean Taunt on Thundurus could have cockblocked the entire strategy...

that's the only reason I still use Thundy tbh. Cockblocking strategies.

Real Edit for discussion sake:

Now that I have reqs I just want to say that Amoongus/Tran/Cress Semi-Room core is super based and you should try it out, even if we keep Sleep Clause.

On that note, I don't see a reason to keep the Clause. While I had a ton of fun sleep spamming under TR, I did equally as well before, and it just gave me a new toy to play with. I also did just fine with the exact same team during the Minitour (9 turn Freeze Hax too stronk Starman), but I feel I would have gone even farther if that unfortunate hax didn't occur, and I'd have used the same team with very few tweaks.

I didn't really have to time to go super sleep abuse with Gravity Darkrai/MegaVenu/Jumpluff like I wanted to, mostly cuz I can't stand laddering for more than 10 minutes at a time, but I can't say a team like that would actually do well againt a good team/player. While it might be fun to chuckle at noobs rage-quitting left and right, I feel like Sleep isn't so OP that it needs limitation.

Now a Freeze Clause.... That might be something I'd really take interest in.

 

[Valentine]

Shout-out to Biosci and ebeast for donating teams to me for laddering :]

• Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?

I personally do not think sleep is overcentralizing. Sleep received a nerf from last generation, since sleep turns do not reset when you switch out. Grass' new powder immunity, and their proliferation in the metagame also renders sleep less effective than it was in previous generations. Even if you have a hard time fitting a common grass, like Skymin, Venu, or Amoonguss on your team to nullify predicted Spores, sleep moves aren't necessarily hard to play around. Moves like Protect and Fake Out, with correct prediction, allow you to switch around and apply proper pressure to sleep inducers before they can get a successful move off. Items like Lum Berry and Chesto Berry can be used to bait sleep users into OHKOs. Prankster Safeguard, already used to block Poison, Paralysis, and Burns on your sweepers, completely nullifies sleep. There are ample ways to shut down sleep, so i believe it is just another aspect of the game.

• Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?

As i've already mentioned, your team should inherently have a few ways to deal with sleep. Aside from maybe running an extra status berry, sleep doesn't affect teambuilding.

• Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?

If removing Sleep clause changes diversity at all, it increases it. I've seen more Pokemon carry sleep moves, and cool sets that take advantage of common sleep inducers.

• Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?

Removing sleep clause increases diversity. I can see how it might be hard for new Doubles players to play around sleep, which is a negative impact, but once you learn how to play around it, its just another part of the tier.

• Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?

Basing your whole team around sleep is a pretty bad strategy, since sleep turns are unreliable.

• What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?

I've already covered some specifics, but honestly, not misplaying is the best thing you have for sleep. Not allowing Pokemon you need to get Spored is made easy thanks to Protect, and the ability to double target sleep inducers. You can take advantage of predicted sleep moves by switching in your own grass type.

• Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?

I had a very smooth ladder experience, I can't say anything seems absurdly broken.

 

[youngjake93]

I've already covered some specifics, but honestly, not misplaying is the best thing you have for sleep. Not allowing Pokemon you need to get Spored is made easy thanks to Protect, and the ability to double target sleep inducers. You can take advantage of predicted sleep moves by switching in your own grass type.

• Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?

I had a very smooth ladder experience, I can't say anything seems absurdly broken.

I wouldn't say it is "made easy" just because of some easy ladder experiences. It is made fair. Your Protect can be taken advantage of with Sub/boosting move or double targetting the partner or giving a free switch. Your double target on the sleep inducer can be taken advantage of with Protect giving a free turn/switch for the partner.
It's fairly easy for me to 6-0 with Jumpluff on the ladder, but it isn't easy off the ladder. This is something I just wanted to point out. I agree with most of your points besides the underselling of sleep as a tactic due to the impression given from the ladder.

 

[Valentine]

I think sleep is a viable tactic, and I honestly didn't mean to make it sound so unreliable. Sleep inducing moves can completely shut down certain Pokemon, grant you free switches, and turns to set up. Prediction is a key part of any tier, and I was just trying to point out that Protect is a very common tool that can aid you when you predict sleep moves. Against a skilled opponent, using Protect is riskier, and you've already mentioned how it might backfire. Thank you for correcting my post Yung One.

 

[BlankZero]

• Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?

Short Answer? No.

Long Answer? Sleep is just another way to hinder your opponent, just like Burning physical attackers or Paralyzing fast mons, or even luck based strategies like ParaSwag. Overall, they all do the same thing in that they mess with the opponents and create free turns. And where Sleep is a little more powerful overall since it completely shuts down a mon, it's not permanent like Burn/Paralyze and doesn't have a set amount of turns, making it less reliable overall as a strategy.

• Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?

A lack of sleep clause punishes badly built teams, as said famously by Mizuhime many times in IRC. Sleep is blocked by the same moves that block any other status. Taunt, Safeguard, Fake Out, etc blocks or otherwise prevents status or their respective abusers. If you prepare yourself for status in general, you will be fine against sleep. If you're really paranoid, you can add some Grass types to your team, add a Lum Berry somewhere, add Sleep Talk to your Guts Conkeldurr. There's plenty of ways to deal with sleep that are already built into the Metagame.

• Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?

If anything, it increases it. It makes mons like Jumpluff viable, and brings up Darkrai and Amoongus, as well as giving us reason to use Breloom again. Overall I see it positively affecting us.

• Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?

Neutral. It just adds another later of strategy to an already very strategic Metagame. While someone brand new to the Metagame might find this a bit daunting or even intimidating, I see it bringing our skill level up overall, as it makes is think more about our teambuilding, as well as making us think a bit more while playing. So while it may make it a bit tougher to get into at first, overall it raises our skill level and makes us better players in the long run, and that's the goal of this whole thing right?

• Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?

I don't think Sleep Spam is a super rewarding strategy overall, as it's super risky due to the fact that sleep turns are random and never a guaranteed amount. It's also handily shut down by any good team that carries Fake Out, Taunt, or Safeguard. So overall, yes; I definitely feel like the cost of using such a team is balanced by its inherent risk.

• What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?

I think I've listed all of them already, but Disruption (Fake Out, Taunt, Rage Powder/Follow Me into a Lum Berry, etc), Safeguard, etc all trump Sleep. Focusing the Sleeper is also known to work. Basically, anything you'd use to shut down any other annoying mon can be used to break Sleep abuse.

• Are there any suspects independent of Sleep that you want to raise attention to the council?

Freeze Clause pls

On a serious note, I still feel Mega Kangaskahn needs a serious looking at. It's so easy to throw it on onto a team and it does so much damage. It has a limited number of set options but it has enough variation to keep an opponent guessing until the set is revealed. Personally I find running Crunch over Sucker Punch to be just enough of a surprise to kill the opponent's (usually just a single) Ghost type which opens up the whole team to Return/Drain Punch (PuP).

The other thing I've noticed is that almost every single competitive team has Heatran on it. That's not to say it's too powerful, but it's something to take notice of.

 

[Laga]

Pwnemon could you edit the questions out of the OP

oh and everyone else, we aren't actually supposed to straight up answer the questions, but rather discuss the extent of how broken / not broken sleep is :(

 

[BlankZero]

Pwnemon could you edit the questions out of the OP

oh and everyone else, we aren't actually supposed to straight up answer the questions, but rather discuss the extent of how broken / not broken sleep is :(

what's wrong with doing it that way though? It keeps it pretty well focused.

 

[Laga]

It is literally just everybody repeating themselves - If anybody so far has disagreed strongly, then they haven't been seen, as no one wants to read every single wall of text that comes from answering 4 lines per question x7, and the disagreement doesn't stand out among answers to each question there...

It gives extremely one-sided "discussion". It doesn't really state your opinion as to oppose the other common opinion, but rather just your own essay, which actually isn't even discussion in the first place.

If one person says that they think Sleep is broken by answering the questions, and the other says they don't think Sleep is broken by answering the questions, they aren't even discussing against each other, they are just stating their opinion. This discussion should be about trying to convince the neutral opinions that your opinion is correct, and answering a bunch of questions that everyone already answered won't convince anybody, in fact most people won't even end up reading these posts, since they all look the same. Furthermore, they literally are the same if the opinion is shared between two posters.

 

[Prof. Almeida]

I don't know if I can answer here, since I'm a nobody inside Smogon, but as I have experience with VGC, I can safely say the Sleep Clause is really bad. Sleep is not that broken.

Safety Googles Follow Me shut sleep down, besides Smeargle, that's frail and dies to almost any strong hit. Prankster Safeguard makes you immune to it, Talonflame OHKOes almost all sleep inducers, and even the ones it can't kill outright, like Venusaur, it can cripple enough that it's partner can do the thing.

If you block sleep, block confusion, since the chances are almost the same. I've had many a Pokémon self hitting themselves three times, and also many Pokémon waking up one turn after being put to sleep. It's not a safe strategy. I ran Amoonguss, and I use it much more to Rage Powder things than to put them to sleep (unless I'm running Trick Room, then I use sleep almost as a Fake Out).

I know that the last master champion of the world did that by putting everything to sleep, but this things doesn't happen that often, and as someone said here, with the NERF of the turns not resetting, it's not that broken anymore.

 

[Audiosurfer]

Ok can I just address this whole if anything Sleep increases diversity thing because it's a subpar argument that doesn't make much sense. After laddering I can say that I haven't seen a bunch of Pokemon who weren't very viable before coming into viability. Jumpluff is still bad, just because a lot of lousy players spam it and get excited over being able to have fast sleep, doesn't mean that it's actually very viable now (it's not). The idea that Darkrai and Amoonguss being used more is an increase in metagame diversity is just laughable anyways. Amoonguss was already seeing a lot of usage among good players before Sleep was on the table for suspecting, and Darkrai isn't any more viable pre-sleep than it was post-sleep (I think a lot of newer users just associate him with sleep, even though outside of Bad Dreams it doesn't benefit much). Breloom is the only thing I've seen that is really a better example of this (altho outside of Spore it still has the same problems), and even then you're left with one mon.

 

[Valentine]

Although I don't have a full sense of what the meta is like outside of the suspect ladder, I agree with what Audiosurfer is saying. That is why i used the wording i did when touching that discussion point. 'If removing Sleep clause changes diversity at all, it increases it.' Apart from opening a new niches, removing Sleep Clause doesn't really effect the metagame's diversity. However, I think that the niches it does open, like SubSeed Jumpluff, Breloom, GravityHypnosis, Darkrai, etc, are niches and Pokemon that players should have access to. Since well built teams have inherent ways to deal with these new strategies, I see no reason to keep them banned.

 

[passion]

k here to discuss,,,

Though when I first was told that sleep clause was being tested I thought it sounded stupid and a waste of time. After playing on ladder and fighting friends I have made the conclusion that this metagame is more fun if sleep clause gotten rid of. I really do not see how getting rid of sleep clause would at all be "overcentralizing" as the few people who actually want sleep clause to stay argue instead I see it as an opportunity for more diverse, creative thinking and as user: Valentine said it gives a few Pokemon/strategies that see little to none usage a chance to shine. For example I got reqs using a Roserade which fyi is completely outclassed by other sleep users but fun nonetheless. Furthermore some other things that getting rid of sleep clause shines light on include Safeguard, gravity hypnosis, and THE ALL MIGHTY SAFETY GOGGLES(.obv sarcasm). Something I forgot to mention is probably something everybody have been saying but the sleep nerfs made in the transition from bw to xy [turns do not reset when switching/spore and sleep powder not effective on grass] makes it so no sleep inducer is at all "ridiculous" or "broken." In conclusion I agree with pretty much everybody and say sleep clause should be lifted. Sorry I did not post earlier I was busy with irl stuff. x)

btw valentine is a bully :[

 

[Audiosurfer]

You getting reqs with a Roserade is not evidence of the increased viability of the Pokemon, if anything it just shows that the ladder isn't that good (although it's been getting better). Even without Sleep clause Roserade is still awful, as are strategies such as Gravity + Hypnosis, so those gimmicky strategies being evidence of any real diversification is sketchy as best. Safeguard is good, but Safeguard was always good given Amoonguss's popularity and the prevalence of burns, so that's nothing new.

 

[passion]

I am not attempting to claim Roserade is now a top tier Pokemon; my point is that it can now be used to a decent extent, while before there was absolutely no reason to use it. Gravity + Hypnosis sounds gimmicky, but that is also due to the fact that Sleep clause existed before, thus making the strategy entirely unviable and just for lols. Now, it can achieve a certain degree of success, as long as you don't focus your entire team around that strategy. Safeguard improved with the freeing of sleep, as now it can potentially shut down your opponent's strategy for multiple turns, making it a very good move in this metagame.

Tbh the biggest increase in viability in my eyes is offense, as offense now has the tools (sleep inducers) to deal with bulky offense/TR teams that used to give it so much trouble. It doesn't have to worry a lot about its lack of bulk compared to the bulkier teams by instead using Sleep to put the mons out of comission. This evens the playing field, and allows offense to become more viable than it was before, while slightly neutering balanced/TR teams that used to be the dominant playstyle. This increase and equality of viable strategies is the main point that allows this increase in diversity that I believe has ensued as a result of the freeing of Sleep.​

 

[Haruno]

I am not attempting to claim Roserade is now a top tier Pokemon; my point is that it can now be used to a decent extent, while before there was absolutely no reason to use it. Gravity + Hypnosis sounds gimmicky, but that is also due to the fact that Sleep clause existed before, thus making the strategy entirely unviable and just for lols. Now, it can achieve a certain degree of success, as long as you don't focus your entire team around that strategy. Safeguard improved with the freeing of sleep, as now it can potentially shut down your opponent's strategy for multiple turns, making it a very good move in this metagame.

Tbh the biggest increase in viability in my eyes is offense, as offense now has the tools (sleep inducers) to deal with bulky offense/TR teams that used to give it so much trouble. It doesn't have to worry a lot about its lack of bulk compared to the bulkier teams by instead using Sleep to put the mons out of comission. This evens the playing field, and allows offense to become more viable than it was before, while slightly neutering balanced/TR teams that used to be the dominant playstyle. This increase and equality of viable strategies is the main point that allows this increase in diversity that I believe has ensued as a result of the freeing of Sleep.​

But doubles was already almost entirely offense before sleep testing..... That much hasn't changed even during the suspect test. Offense is still king.

Roserade seems like an inferior jumpluff if anything thanks to the ass typing (though better than jumpluff I suppose) lower speed, no infiltrator, neutrality to eq among other things. T/spikes isn't much of a niche in doubles. If anything that just shows how piss poor the ladder is.

If we want this discussion to go anywhere rather than repeating the same points, someone will have to make a stellar argument for why sleep is broken, but sadly that hasn't happened yet.

 

[Pocket]

When you're nominating a suspect, back it up with substantial supporting details, or else it would be ignored.

 

[D-Quag]

Sleep is never going to be over centralizing or overpowered. A team relying on sleep will almost always fail. My problem with sleep is that it almost acts as a constant fake out, anyone facing it has to play carefully around it and risk an opponent setting up.

I'd like to bring the discussion to one of the mons benefiting from the lack of sleep clause: Amoonguss. It had its uses in trick room, countering trick room, outside of trick room before sleep was even suspected, and now it constantly threatens sleep, rage powder, and a regenerator boost just from switching out. It's become especially annoying in my eyes because of it's teamwork with Cresselia. With Cresselia using trick room and Amoonguss abusing it, it can very quickly cause a switch momentum. Thoughts?

 

[Audiosurfer]

I am not attempting to claim Roserade is now a top tier Pokemon; my point is that it can now be used to a decent extent, while before there was absolutely no reason to use it. Gravity + Hypnosis sounds gimmicky, but that is also due to the fact that Sleep clause existed before, thus making the strategy entirely unviable and just for lols. Now, it can achieve a certain degree of success, as long as you don't focus your entire team around that strategy. Safeguard improved with the freeing of sleep, as now it can potentially shut down your opponent's strategy for multiple turns, making it a very good move in this metagame.

Tbh the biggest increase in viability in my eyes is offense, as offense now has the tools (sleep inducers) to deal with bulky offense/TR teams that used to give it so much trouble. It doesn't have to worry a lot about its lack of bulk compared to the bulkier teams by instead using Sleep to put the mons out of comission. This evens the playing field, and allows offense to become more viable than it was before, while slightly neutering balanced/TR teams that used to be the dominant playstyle. This increase and equality of viable strategies is the main point that allows this increase in diversity that I believe has ensued as a result of the freeing of Sleep.​

Bad strategies being slightly more usable now isn't very strong backing for the removal of a clause, especially when said strategies still aren't very great even post unbanning. As for Safeguard and offense, as I've said in previous posts (or as Haruno said in the case of offense) both are and have always been the predominant modes of play. Very few if any defensively inclined teams will see success in the doubles tier. I don't even know why people list that sort of thing as a benefit, if anything defensively based teams are the ones that would need some aid, since doubles as a mode of play was offensively inclined both this gen and last gen (and likely in previous generations as well). Just the nature of Doubles favors offense, since you can't tank the same way you could in a Singles environment with the threat of double-targeting looming over you.

Also, while Safeguard has improved, I assure you it was already an excellent move to begin with. Even if it did see a sharp increase in viability (it hasn't) that still wouldn't help prove your point any more than me saying that dropping Giratina-O would be good for metagame diversity due to some obscure mon rising up to check it. The fact that Safeguard may be used more isn't something that's positive or even negative. It simply is. Thus, it's not something that can be soundly cited in support of a removal of Sleep clause.

 

[Plus]

if people want to read my answers to questions =)

• Is Sleep broken/too powerful or simply another viable aspect of Pokemon? Is it overcentralizing?
  • Sleep isn't overcentralizing; if anything, the sleep mechanics of 6th gen make it much more manageable, and by sleeping a Pokemon you are taking a turn to leave your Pokemon vulnerable to an attack, or you are essentially taking a risk after the first turn a Pokemon falls asleep in hopes that it stays asleep and does not attack. Sleep can be used to stop sweeps in their tracks, and they can be used to prevent things like Trick Room from setting up. Yet, the faults of sleep keep it in check as there are numerous ways to deal with it: Fake Out, Taunt, opposing Grass-types against powders, Protect, Substitute, or just strategically wait out the turns.

• Does it restrain teambuilding too much? How much preparation does a team require to combat sleep?
  • Obviously you have to build with sleep in mind, but the same can be said for a plethora of playstyles in Doubles, and sleep really isn't that different. I'm using Taunt, Protect, and Fake Out on almost all of my teams and they've kept slept in check pretty well, but I'd still be using those types of moves anyway regardless because they have so much utility in Doubles. It doesn't require much of the extra effort to deal with.

• Does Sleep limit or increase diversity of the metagame?
  • I mean, I guess I've seen more Breloom and Jumpluff on the ladder, though they haven't really pressured me into changing up my style of play. I wouldn't base an entire team off of the premise of sleep anyway, if anything I think it's a neat utility that can aid your own Pokemon to set-up by getting a couple of free turns--after all, you don't win by sleeping, you win by attacking. Attacking is a strategy, sleeping is a utility to aid in the strategy.

• Does Sleep have an overall positive/neutral/negative impact to the Doubles metagame? How does Sleep affect the metagame?
  • Neutral, I suppose? Again, I think it's a legitimate secondary aid or insurance against other types of strategies in Doubles such as TR Offense, but it no way does it completely devalue legitimate styles of play. It should really encourage slow teams to have some sort of response to status in general, not just sleep. Again, I'm rather new to the Doubles scene so I can't say that the impact will ultimately be positive or negative; after all, positive and negative is all a bunch of hoopla as long as it's balanced--it's all relative to the metagames we've played prior to this one, and as I've stated before, I have no experience outside of this.
• Does the opportunity cost of using sleep balances out the rewards from sleep spam?
  • Yes, pretty much, I feel like I've repeated myself regarding this point and many others before me have probably regurgitated the same crap already, so I'll keep it at a short, concise yes before some of you bite my head off =)
• What are the different checks or counter strategies to combat sleep?
  • see first bullet ^^

#bandwagoning

Most of this stuff has already been said, but I think that the change from BW to XY sleep mechanics makes the whole sleep game a lot more unpredictable. You can switch in slept Pokemon on your opponent when you know your opponent can't kill off your slept Pokemon in one shot, and you can fish for turns to wake up. Essentially, every turn your slept Pokemon is wading through a turn of sleep, your opponent has made a choice to take a risk in your slept Pokemon waking up. For example, take a scenario in which I have a slept Charizard Y and a slept Aegislash, while you have a Hitmontop and Landorus-T. Both of my Pokemon have been asleep for 1 turn. Do you choose to take the risk of my Charizard Y or Aegislash waking up? If my Aegislash wakes up, I can Wide Guard the Lando-T Rock Slide to protect my Charizard, and if my Charizard wakes up, I can Heat Wave--or will you try to predict that I'll wake up next turn and Wide Guard for your Hitmontop?

These types of scenarios are rather unpredictable, and most of the time it's just best to make the most conservative move in these types of situations. And I don't think that's particularly a knock on the noncompetitive nature of sleep; it's just one of sleep's inherent flaws. The Hitmontop and Landorus combination is still at an advantage because they're the ones awake.

And yeah I guess I can echo what everyone else said about the legitimacy of sleep users, though I guess my post was more focused around the concept of sleep itself as opposed to the execution

 

[Bughouse]

I know in the case of banning something, you need to have persuasive positive evidence that banning it will be beneficial. The default is to vote No Ban, until and unless there is reason to ban it. Those in favor of removing sleep clause are using this as an argument, saying unless there is evidence that having sleep clause is beneficial, we should remove it, but I'm not convinced. To me at least, it seems reasonable to argue that the default vote is not to "allow as many things as possible," but rather to maintain the status quo unless changing it is beneficial.

If the Council can make a policy statement on what the default vote should be based on, and what evidence is needed to overcome that, it would help inform my vote a lot. Under one policy, I'd vote to remove sleep clause, while under the other I'd vote to maintain it... which isn't a decision I want to make without better information first. I'm sure there's precedent found in BW Ubers with their occasional testing of Clauses, but I'm not familiar with what policy they followed.

 

[champetero]

Sleep is never going to be over centralizing or overpowered. A team relying on sleep will almost always fail. My problem with sleep is that it almost acts as a constant fake out, anyone facing it has to play carefully around it and risk an opponent setting up.

I'd like to bring the discussion to one of the mons benefiting from the lack of sleep clause: Amoonguss. It had its uses in trick room, countering trick room, outside of trick room before sleep was even suspected, and now it constantly threatens sleep, rage powder, and a regenerator boost just from switching out. It's become especially annoying in my eyes because of it's teamwork with Cresselia. With Cresselia using trick room and Amoonguss abusing it, it can very quickly cause a switch momentum. Thoughts?

The thing about amoonguss has always been that its taunt bait it has no offensive pressure what so ever so if you taunt it it's dead weight because it loses his support options and giga drain isn't going to do much unless your opponent is weak to it and even then its going to be doing little damage.

The amoonguss set i use is:

Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 236 HP / 180 SDef / 92 Def
Sassy Nature
- Spore
- Rage powder
- Clear Smog
- Protect

Item and ability:Black sludge and regenerator to recover health due to the lack of giga drain.

EV's:180+ SDef lets you survive a timid Charizard-Y's heat wave in the sun and a heat wave/fire blast from a modest heatran which lets you survive their hit and spore them.236 hp rather than 252 just so you can add a extra bit of physical bulk.92 defense aren't going to get you anything especial but a rare case of double edge kanga(its common in japannese vgc so idk if it will ever catch on here or not) only has a 18.8% chance to OHKO you.

Moves:Spore,Rage powder and protect are staples so i don't need to explain them.I run clear smog over giga drain because 1)I find the damage of giga drain rather weak.2)I already have ways to recover hp and i don't really mind losing an attack move. 3)I can remove stat boost from opponents like bisharp and you can remove stat drops from your own teammates.

I'm not really afraid of taunt because the most common pokemon with taunt is thundurus and amoonguss shouldn't be in the battle when thundurus is in anyways.

 

[Audiosurfer]

srk1214, can't claim to speak for the entire council but for me I don't think there is a default vote. People come in with different paradigms for voting which is fine. I personally haven't seen a huge difference in the metagame w/ sleep clause or no sleep clause (as in nothing's much more viable, no real payoff from inclusion or exclusion of sleep clause in that sense). For me, the reason I'll vote to keep Sleep clause is since it's more fun to me than not having Sleep clause. I don't really buy the arguments that we have any sort of obligation to have as minimal a banlist as possible or anything like that, instead I like to tackle it case by case. To me, how much fun the tier is is something that's definitely worth considering (after all it's the main reason people play. if you only play for other reasons and derive no satisfaction from actually playing the game then I urge you to devote your time to more profitable endeavors than playing Pokemon) and in an instance where I don't see a huge payoff in any other sense to removing Sleep clause, is the main thing I will use to make my decision. I know that there are other users who also dislike a metagame without Sleep clause for similar reasons, and I would encourage them to vote as such and not feel as though they have to tackle it from a set manner.

in short vote from the perspective that suits you, the only thing that matters is that you have reasoning for your decision, not how you chose to reach the decision. at the end of the day regardless of precedent (which this site is bizarrely obsessed with) or whatever you are the one who's gonna be impacted by your choice so vote from whatever standpoint feels natural to you. setting a default sort of stance biases it in favor of a certain decision and excludes many potentially valid reasons for voting a certain way, so setting some sort of default position is something I'd be against.

 

[Laga]

If we look at this the sketchy way, I'd say there are two opinions.

1) Why would we remove Sleep Clause?
2) Why did we need Sleep Clause in the first place?

This is all up to opinion as I have stated before, but I think that there is more logic that can be applied to the second option. I don't believe that Sleep spam is very hard to face, not even when in the hands of a skilled player, and since I don't have any problems with either of the two outcomes that may be after this Suspect vote, I resort to a very basis question; why did we even need Sleep Clause in Doubles?

Well Amoonguss spamming Spore is a problem. Except lifting Sleep Clause helps keep Trick Room in check better, so that point balances out. ChloroSaur has a biting weakness to the new Pokemon Talonflame, as well as a classic Taunt Thundurus. In addition to that, Sleep Powder misses one in four times. It all comes down to which side of the perspective you see correct, and the reason I am voting to lift Sleep Clause is because I think that a good Smogon metagame should only have the broken aspects banned, and I don't find Sleep remotely broken.

A good backup argument (probably bought up before itt) is how VGC is generally fairly balanced, even with Scarf Dark Void Smeargle being a thing. If Sleep isn't ridiculously broken in a metagame where putting two Pokemon to Sleep is crippling half of the opposition, then how would it suddenly be so in Doubles?

 

[Ash Borer]

Sleep is a shit tactic anyways, it's hilariously unreliable and has such a high opportunity cost forcing you to use shit pokes, and items that barely benefit you. Sleep improves the metagame because it's not broken but it adds to the metagame. It's not something any team an rely on to win, but it gives players more options to check stuff and punish opponents for being too slow or unprepared.

I see no reason to keep the sleep clause, it doesnt make the game any more fun.