NP Lucario team

[domeface]

I've been playing with this team a bit over the past few days, and I'm having some trouble with it. I'm not sure whether there's a problem with the team itself in terms of synergy etc or whether I'm just playing it wrong, but nothing really screams out at me as a weakness, so I'm posting it to see if anybody has any suggestions.

Team at a glance:

Team building process:

I wanted to try out Nasty Plot Lucario, so he was the first member of the team.

Next, I needed something to deal with Fighting-types who either survive Luke's attacks and OHKO back (Roobushin), or outprioritise him with Mach Punch or Vacuum Wave (Infernape?). I chose Gliscor for this role.

Next, I needed something to help Luke set up. In went the ultimate set-up setter upper, Wobbuffet.

Next, I decided to add another set-up sweeper to take advantage of Wobbuffet. I chose Latios.

Next, I needed another priority user. Who better than the famous Scizor.

Finally, I needed a good lead to reliably get up entry hazards. The obvious choice was the fastest pokemon in the game, Deoxys-S

Most teams would have pokemon being replaced etc until they get to their final team, but this team is very much a work in progress at the moment - I just can't figure out where the problems lie, so I don't know which pokemon to replace/change (that's hopefully where your rates will be helpful).

Now, here's a detailed look at the team.

~The Speed Demon~

Deoxys-S@Focus Sash
Timid | Pressure
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

-Stealth Rock
-Spikes
-Magic Coat
-Ice Beam

Deoxys is my lead nine times out of ten. Unless my opponent is carrying Xatu/Espeon or leads with a common Magic Coat user, I almost always go for Stealth Rock turn 1. Usually, other SR leads will attack on this turn to avoid being caught by Taunt or Magic Coat. When they see me laying hazards, they tend to do the same the following turn, so it's on this turn I usually use MC. If I survive Stealth Rocking, I tend to just use Spikes until Deoxys goes down.

~The Surprise~

Scizor@Life Orb
Adamant | Technician
196 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spe

-Swords Dance
-Bullet Punch
-Bug Bite
-Brick Break

This is my early- to mid-game sweeper. He usually comes in after Deoxys has done his job and sets up (SS teams often lead with TTar, making perfect setup fodder for Scizor). Because everyone expects CB Scizor, it's very easy to net some surprise KOs. +2 LO Bullet Punch is much more powerful than the standard CB BP, so it's a great STAB move for faster opponents, while Bug Bite is my more powerful STAB move for bulkier threats. Brick Break gives me good coverage on things that resist my STAB, plus SE coverage on the omnipresent Nattorei (with Rugged Helmet + Iron Barbs + Life Orb, you really want him to die in one hit). Due to the surprise factor and BP's amazing power (it's almost twice as powerful as CB BP!), Scizor often nets several KOs, and almost always puts a good dent in the pokemon that eventually ends his sweep.

~The Punchbag~

Wobbuffet@Leftovers
Bold
32 HP / 224 Def / 252 SpD

-Counter
-Mirror Coat
-Encore
-Tickle

Wobbuffet is an excellent pivotal pokemon, as well as a counter to most stat-uppers. Wobbuffet is also often the pokemon to come out after Deoxys has bitten the dust (he's especially good against Politoed - offensive variants are usually choiced, while defensive varians do little enough damage to allow Wobbuffet to Encore) If he comes in on a choiced pokemon, everyone knows how it goes - CounterCoat, and the opposing pokemon dies. If he comes in on an offensive setup move, there's some mindgames - usually, the opposing pokemon will be able to 2HKO Wobbuffet, but not OHKO - this means if Wobbuffet can CounterCoat for the kill, but if it Encores, it's forced to switch out or die. Of course, if it doesn't Encore, then the opposing pokemon is free to set up again. In this situation I tend to chose my move based on how much the opposing pokemon threatens me when set up.
Anyway, this is pretty unnecessary, everyone knows how Wobbuffet works :P

~The Psycho~

Latios@Life Orb
Timid | Levitate
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

-Calm Mind
-Dragon Pulse
-Surf
-Psycho Shock

Latios is usually Specs'd, but I dislike being locked into moves, and since this team is running Wobbuffet, a setup Latios makes more sense. Calm Mind and Dragon Pulse are obvious, Surf supplies near-perfect coverage with Pulse, and Psycho Shock gives Latios a secondary STAB and a way to hit specially-bulky pokemon like Blissey, as well as supplying SE coverage vs Fighting- and Poison-types.
Latios generally comes out mid- to late-game, either when he's given a good setup opportunity or one my opponent is causing trouble with one of the slower Dragons and needs revenging.
Latios doesn't really have the bulk to setup multiple CMs, but if I'm up against something with only HP Ice to hit him hard, then I may go for +2 or +3, after which I just sweep until I die (by the time something that can kill Latios comes in, weak attacks along with residual damage will have left Latios at low enough health that it's not worth the dent in one of my remaining pokemon to save him).

​

~The Dancing Tank~

Gliscor@Toxic Orb
Jolly | Poison Heal
40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe

-Swords Dance
-Aerial Ace
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge

Yet another set-up sweeper, but with his decent physical bulk can also switch into Fighting-types and threaten with Aerial Ace. I used to run Acrobat and Fling over AA and SD, but I found that I often had to Fling my Toxic Orb on one of the key pokemon Gliscor is supposed to counter, Roobushin, who obviously loves to be Poisoned, before I could do any damage with Acrobat. For this reason I switched to Swords Dance to boost my overall damage output, and used Aerial Ace over Acrobat. I'd be open to suggestions regarding better spreads/movesets or even pokemon to replace this Gliscor, as he's probably the weakest member of the team.

​

~The Star of the Show~

Lucario@Life Orb
Modest | Steadfast
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

-Nasty Plot
-Aura Sphere
-Shadow Ball
-Vacuum Wave

Lucario is my lategame sweeper. He often finds opportunities to set up (Nattorei is excellent setup fodder), and again NP is rather unexpected compared to SD, so the surprise factor can be very helpful. The moveset needs little explanation, NP and Aura Sphere are obvious, Shadow Ball is for coverage and Vacuum Wave is for priority. I use Modest over Timid to maximise power output, there aren't many things Timid outspeeds that Modest doesn't, andsince considering Vacuum Wave, the power output is more than worth it.


I don't think there's a full G5 threatlist yet, but the only pokemon I can think of that really threatens this team is Urugamosu, who can basically 6-0 me if it gets a Butterfly Dance in before Wobbuffet switches in. He resists both my priority users and Vacuum Wave does pitiful damage thanks to BD's SpD boost anyway.

If there's anything I've missed, please tell me and I'll try to add it in. Other than that, rate away! :)

​

 

[darksoulSP]

I know Wobb is fantastic at setting up Pokemon, but 4 set up Pokemon on a team is WAAAY too many! I would for SURE put a Choice item somewhere, either on Scizor or Latios.

 

[The Grand Babido]

Hello you seem to have designed a relatively decent team here, as seen in your warstory, however I really don't understand how you are working towards a Lucario sweep.

Firstly, lets examine the threats to Nasty Plot Lucario. Salamence, Latias, Latios and friends all stand out. So do Pokemon like Landlos and the electric equivalent of it. Basically anything faster than Lucario with some power that resists Vacuum Wave will threaten a Lucario sweep. By far the most eminent of those Pokemon are the Lati twins and they stand out as a real thorn in your side. Latios comfortably 2HKOes evey single member of your team and gets a few opportunities to come in versus Gliscor and Deoxys. I think the best option for your team is to run a more defensive Scizor. This Scizor will be able to handle Latias and Latios relatively comfortably and will be able to Pursuit any that do not carry Hidden Power [Fire]. With Latios/Latias gone, a hole might open up for you to begin a successful Lucario sweep. Scizor also has the benefit of weakening things like Garchomp and Salamence that stand in Lucario's way. A defensive Scizor can also deal with the rare, but pretty much end-all revenge-killer to Lucario, Gengar. With U-turn, Scizor can also lure in Gliscor, weakening it and forcing it out as you go to Latios.

Scizor @ Life Orb
Careful | Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Atk / 96 SpDef
Bullet Punch / U-turn / Pursuit / Roost

Now, I can honestly say that Gliscor set does not work too well, and you yourself said you haven't had much success with it. While you did not like the Acrobat + Fling set, you may want to try a similar set but one which allows you to poison more Pokemon, although not have the power of Acrobat.

Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Jolly | Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Earthquake / Aerial Ace / Protect / Toxic

Protect is really important to the survivability of this Gliscor as at the end of two turns, Gliscor recovers 24% or so. Toxic is useful and it gives Gliscor a weapon to limit the amount of Latios/Latias switch-ins who with Aerial Ace, Gliscor cannot really threaten.

Lastly, seeing as Latios is really holding your team together, resistance wise [only fire-resist, helps vs Voltolos etc] I really think it wants some sort of recovery. Consider Recover over Psycho Shock.

Good luck!

 

[Lamppost]

Ya, you definately have too many set-up sweepers, you may want to change either scizor or latios to a choice band or choice specs set.

scizor @ choice band
Adamant 248hp/252atk/8spe

-u-turn
-bullet punch
-pursuit
-superpower

This set could work well in conjunction with wobbufet because if you encore a set-up move you could switch scizor in and trap them with pursuit if pursuit would be the effective move to use

 

[Mr.Senior]

true. too many setup sweepers. way too many in fact. every team i make that is offensive has 2 choice users generally. possibly specs/trick and a scarfer, or 2 scarfers or a bander and a scarfer. i find 2 is the magic number in tandem with possibly a life orb wall breaker or something with just fantastic coverage and can punch wholes in things to soften them up for your set upper. if possible from looking at it i could pick out your weak link, id say its just its structure. a quick fix to your team id have to say is scarf up latios, band up scizor, put taunt on deoxys instead of rocks, replace magic coat with something else because with taunt and your own hazards is pretty redundant, and make gliscor its supportive role with rocks to give your team a little extra defense and hazards.

 

[elDino]

Hey domeface. I remember playing this team! As many others have said, far too many set up sweepers and Swords Dance Gliscor imo is an awful sweeper. You need to put some choice items in there, try a Choice Scarf on Latios as this will help you revenge some faster threats and a Choice Band on Scizor for an added power boost. And finally, I think that the Acrobat + Fling set for Gliscor would work perfectly for your team. Its not about what you like, its about what gives you the best chances of winning and I feel that this does for you.
Good luck!

 

[domeface]

Yeah, I was thinking I have too many set-up sweepers. However, Scizor is one of my most useful pokemon, and utilising a Choice Band on him effectively turns him into a totally different pokemon; a scout and revenge killer rather than a sweeper. Latios, while not transformed quite as much as Scizor, it does play very differently with Specs; Draco Meteor means it has to switch out often etc. I'm totally open to Gliscor being completely overhauled, though.

I think that a more defensive Scizor may be the best option, but would I be better running Hesit's LO/Roost set or just a more defensive variant of the classic CB Scizor?

Also, on your suggested Gliscor set, Heist, is it really worth running Aerial Ace on a set with no Attack EVs? I've not run any calcs, but with Gliscor's average 95 base Attack and Aerial Ace's 60BP, with no investment is there anything besides 4x weaks it'll be netting KOs on?
Actually, t he more I think about it, the less sure I am about Gliscor's place on the team; his stats and typing just aren't ideal to do what I need him to do. Looking through my options, would a bulky Gyarados do better? He resists all three of Lucario's weaknesses and is relatively bulky with Intimidate factored in. Then again, he has a glaring Electric weakness in place of Gliscor's immunity, leaving the only resist as Latios... or perhaps something else, Zapdos maybe? I just feel Gliscor isn't really pulling his weight and the team could be better with another Flying-type.

So currently, my planned revisions are:

-Recover over Psycho Shock on Latios.
-Bulkier, possibly CB set on Scizor, dropping SD.
-More defensive spread on Gliscor, or have him completely replaced.

Anyway, thanks all (especially Heist) for the rates, they were very helpful.

EDIT: I wrote this before I saw Mr.Senior and ElDino's posts. I need to go now to ring in the new year, but I'll look into your guys' suggestions later ;)

 

[The Grand Babido]

Aerial Ace does not have any huge use. Its uses are limited to Roopushin, Breloom and Balloon Doryuuzu. With Aerial Ace, Gliscor will counter all forms of Doryuuzu so it is definitely a good option.

A bulky Gyarados would probably work well with Lucario as they share some similar counters [Latias] and it also lures out other Pokemon Lucario can set up on [for example Nattorei].

 

[domeface]

Okay guys, here's an update on the team. The changes I've made are as follows:

-Scizor has been switched to Heist's bulky spread
-Gliscor has been switched to Heist's set
-Latios' Psycho Shock has been replaced with Recover

My thoughts on these changes are somewhat mixed. The main problem I have is that if Wobbuffet Encores a stat-up move or similar, in other words granting something the perfect setup opportunity... I don't really have the facilities to make use of it. Since after the Encore nerf all you get is a free switch and one free setup turn, I have the option of switching in Latios and setting up a CM, or Lucario and getting up a NP. The problem with the former is that a +1 Latios isn't that threatening, and Lucario is best saved for lategame. For this reason, I'm thinking of switching back to SD Scizor. However, I'm hesitant to do this, because after running U-Turn/Pursuit/Roost/BP for a while, I find myself using Roost a lot, and Pursuit is very useful for revenge killing. However, I feel I can probably do without these in exchange for a sweeper that can actually make use of Wobbuffet to wreak havoc. However, I'm not sure if it would be better to utilise a bulkier spread for SDzor, similar to the one I'm currently running - when boosted by SD, the drop in power should be relatively unimportant. Then again, if I'm forgoing Roost, maximising Scizor's bulk may not actually be of much use. Any suggestions here? Would I be best just sticking with my original spread, or try a slightly bulkier one?

Recover on Latios has been hugely useful, as it helps to counteract LO recoil and Sandstorm damage, as well as multiple weak attacks, letting him nab more CMs against stalling opponents. Blissey and opposing CMers (especially those who carry Psycho Shock themselves) are now a bitch, but I come across them far less often than I find Recover useful, so it's staying.

Gliscor has been much more useful than its previous SD form, but I'm still unsure as to whether it's fulfilling its full potential.

That's all for now :)