np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Ghosts [Giratina-O remains in Ubers - check the OP]

[Expert_Occultist]

If you like a more diverse rather than a centralised metagame that's your opinion, and it should be respected, but please, do not act as if the matchup issue can be resolved by a "git gud, scrub" attitude, it is a serious issue, and you can't cover majority (not even all) of the metagame with the six slots you have at your disposal, teambuilding skills is important, as already stated by Halcyon, that does not mean that a player cannot get better as a builder, other than a battler, heck, I have something like 100 ou rates on the RMT Forum, what were the point of them, if I thought that teams cannot improve and blame it all on matchup?
However, there is a limit, which is quite shitty at the moment for how much you can rate/improve teams, and you can't seriously sell it as "if you can't stop 100+ threats with 6 slots you are trash and deserve to lose"

I feel like this is a gross oversimplification of Der Twist's post. I see his post as encouraging a blend of teambuilding and play skill, one that I think is certainly achievable. No where in his post did I detect a "git gud, scrub" attitude. I don't think he was being elitist when he was saying that everyone has room for improvement

 

[Enki]

I feel like this is a gross oversimplification of Der Twist's post. I see his post as encouraging a blend of teambuilding and play skill, one that I think is certainly achievable. No where in his post did I detect a "git gud, scrub" attitude. I don't think he was being elitist when he was saying that everyone has room for improvement

Which we do, but as already stated there is a limit with what we currently have.

People do not lose to bad match-ups, they lost because they're either a bad team builder or got outplayed (or hax, but that's universal), whatever the reason, you lost and you could improve. You could have improved your team, you could have improved how you handle and prep for match-ups, you could improve your plays as a whole. A loss is a chance to better yourself, whatever kind of meta.

 

[Antonykun]

I really liked Enki's post. That's the angle from which we should be looking at tests like this.

All through Black and White as well as X and Y, we keep having suspects where people complain about how we are "forced to run obscure counters" and that the Pokemon in question "stifle diversity." Finally, we have a metagame that is pretty much as diverse as can be, with Pokemon ranging from OU to RU being legitimate metagame threats. This, in tandem with the Mega Pokemon that teeter on the line between broken and non-broken makes the metagame match-up reliant. And unfortunately, this is a side effect of a diverse metagame. If you want more Pokemon to be viable, you have to accept that there will then be more threats to consider while teambuilding, and therefore more threats you will inevitably be weak to. Metagames that are diverse tend to, in a competitive sense, favor Teambuilding skill. By this I mean, when two players of equal skill fight in this metagame, usually the one with the team matchup will win. That's an inherent quality of a diverse meta. This is, in part, why tournament players are baffled that newer users are able to beat experienced veterans like Bloo or McM or whoever, and why newer players like Tesung, Anti, and Ben Gay are widely considered to be the best ORAS players. They're great players, but they're FANTASTIC team builders. They are able to take advantage of the sometimes obscure but still powerful threats ORAS has to offer, while still building teams that solidly cover as many threats as possible. This type of skill is more favored in a metagame as diverse as ORAS is. To put it simply, if a metagame has threats A, B, C, D, and E, and you aren't the best team builder, you might cover threats A and B, but be unable to cover C, D, and E. However, a better team builder might be able to cover threats A, B, C, and D, while only being weak to E. This means they are less susceptible to matchup, and therefore have a greater chance of winning any given battle.

On the flip side, you can have a metagame that lacks diversity, but has only a few threats to keep track of. This diminishes matchup-based wins, and therefore teambuilding skill is not as important as in a diverse metagame. In a centralized metagame, battling skill is more heavily favored. Think about a metagame like GSC. Completely centralized. There are only a handful of Pokemon that are legitimately effective (compared to the later games), and every team carries a Snorlax and 2-3 ways of beating it. However, GSC is considered by some to be the best meta, and it is often compared to chess. In a meta like this, since there are fewer threats to cover with team building, the battling skill of each player is more important than the team building skill in determining the winner.

So those are the two different types of metagames we can have. I diverse, matchup-based one, or a centralized, battle-centric one. Ultimately, the decision as to what kind of metagame we're looking for is a simple one as soon as we answer the following question: do we inherently value teambuilding skill or battling skill more? If we value teambuilding more, then a diverse meta is what we want. If we value battling skill, a centralized meta is what we want. Obviously both skills are important, but determining which is MORE important will lead us in the direction we want the metagame to go.

I have to say that this is a gorgeous and well put write up on the two types of skills in Competitive Pokemon but there is one thing that bothers me and it is not at all your fault :
This gave me the feeling that they are in fact only two different metagames and while I know you meant they are more than that I feel worried that someone is going to misinterpret that.

Anyways what i really want to do is say that a meta that favors one skill and excludes the other is nothing short of bad.
A Battling Skill only meta would flat out ignore an integral part of the Pokemon series: Self Expression. The ability to actually make a unique team as opposed to just picking off the greatest and strongest
A Teambuilding only meta often have scenarios where the game is decided almost entirely on the team preview. Any good game designer will tell you how terrible such a thing is for a game.

In reality the meta that would probably be the "best" would be one that focuses on both attributes of skill but probably not one that has a 50:50 as the odds would be against that
...but what do i know I'm just a guy with 2 messages :P

 

[WebBowser]

Where did I say they were bad battlers? No where in my post did I say they were bad battlers. If anything I'm knocking the players who can't seem to adjust their skills toward a meta that rewards team building.

Maybe I'm just not understanding how the current meta favors teambuilding so much more than battling. By how much do you figure this is the case? 40/60 in favor of teambuilding? More? Are truly bad players shooting to the top based on matchup alone? I'm not seeing that. The best players are still at the top where they belong. This means that play skill is still very significant in the current meta. Therefore, unless I'm missing something, this meta is not broken whatsoever.

Actually yes, I can name at least one bad player who occasionally ladders to the top 10 of OU by abusing a team that happens to have a positive matchup against common OU teams, his name is WebBowser (aka me). I am not a particularly good player, and have a nasty habit of making awful misplays that throw away otherwise perfectly winnable matches. During my time on Smogon, I have made a grand total of one good team (though to be fair, it went through so many iterations that it could probably be considered 3 or 4 teams). I am, of course, referring to my Scolipede Quick Pass team, about 70% of the games I win with it happen via duel screens + memento latios into scolipede, another 10-20% by chucking wobbuffet at common phasers and locking them into something or outright removing them, and the rest by me actually having to make "good" plays (which usually just involves saccing stuff until I can get scolipede/latios a free swap in) and/or sheer luck.

The matchup issue is a real one that I can sympathize with, but I think that the issue is here in large part due to some obscenely powerful mons that combine the ability to setup with an immediately threatening presence, making it difficult to check and nigh impossible to counter. Giratina-O is actually one of those mons. Dual 120 offenses, strong coverage and a boosting item on the single best STAB typing in XY gives Giratina-O tremendous offensive presence without any setup. After a single calm mind however, many of his checks (which are few to begin with) suddenly stop working so well. Not only because they tend to be specially based (due to most physical mons fearing WoW), but also because most defensive answers to him like clefable and sylveon go from being 3hkos to 2hkos, allowing giratina to win 1v1, and these are supposed to be his strongest "checks".

If Giratina-O was just a very good wall/bruiser with no real sweeping potential ala Heatran, I would welcome him with open arms. However, as I see it now, he is just another threat that I need to add to my list of stuff I need to account for when building my team. He will not reduce the matchup problems of the game because he demands at least one, probably more teamslots just to check him (lol at countering him). Most/all the old sweepers will be just as dangerous as before, DD M-Gyara and Zard-X will still be tearing holes after 1 DD, M-Lopunny will still be an incredible revenge killer, Sand Offense ain't going anywhere, you still have to prepare for most of the same stuff you prepared for before, except now you gotta prepare for Giratina-O.

Frankly, I would prefer the Aegis meta to this one, at least aegis was pretty easy to revenge kill, even with stance dance shenanigans (he also had an OU viable hard counter in Hippo, which is something that cannot be said for Giratina-O).

 

[RoyalDispenser]

I agree with WebBowser, one thing we don't realize is giratina-O isn't an answer to top metagame threats. Instead, giratina-o is just another addition to the tier that we have to prepare for.

Infact, one thing notable is that if you slap giratina-O into OU, he synergizes so well with everything in the S-rank, they can form devastating cores that they couldn't before. The issue I feel is a lot of players here think that slapping giratina-o in OU is going to suddenly wipe keldeo, metagross, and lando-I out of existence.. when on the contrary, they can instead abuse being built on teams possessing giratina-O as means of handling each other, since one of their biggest problems was themselves afterall. Giratina-o handles 2/3rds of the metagame, which just lessens the strain on said problematic "potentially broken" pokemon who get checked by that 2/3rd.

For example, one can say that everything in S-rank has some minor issues setting up or being brought into starmie.. giving OU giratina-O just gives those sweepers and wallbreakers a switch into starmie, giving them opportunities to sweep. I don't feel giratina-o is doing what we want it to do.. instead it's influencing and benefiting all the S ranks with being able to handle their checks or threats.

Another example is lando-I vs. lando-I.. if somebody's giratina handles the opposing lando-I, then yours can find more opportunities to sweep or devastate... or metagross vs. metagross.. whichever loses theirs first to giratina may end up losing the game since yours can now plow through their team running the proper coverage.

Even with giratina checking or countering those S-rank pokemon.. it goes both ways, cause oh no, giratina-O checks itself. Giratina-O can check itself for the other top tier threats.. similar to how aegislash often was used to check aegislash, but couldn't necessarily counter itself. A core of keldeo+giratina+lando-I+metagross/altaria seems to function pretty good in this metagame.. so good there isn't much else you should be running.. it lessens team matchup a bit, however it either is speed tie reliant (dealing with other giratinas) or which ever sweeper gets the first rock polish, agility, sub or calm mind.

All in all, it's just another threatening addition or glue to teams in OU.. slapping it on a team causes 2/3rds the meta to struggle.. and everything in the higher ranks we're bringing him down to basically make unviable, thrive on that lack of versatility for sweeping opportunities.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

Actually yes, I can name at least one bad player who occasionally ladders to the top 10 of OU by abusing a team that happens to have a positive matchup against common OU teams, his name is WebBowser (aka me). I am not a particularly good player, and have a nasty habit of making awful misplays that throw away otherwise perfectly winnable matches. During my time on Smogon, I have made a grand total of one good team (though to be fair, it went through so many iterations that it could probably be considered 3 or 4 teams). I am, of course, referring to my Scolipede Quick Pass team, about 70% of the games I win with it happen via duel screens + memento latios into scolipede, another 10-20% by chucking wobbuffet at common phasers and locking them into something or outright removing them, and the rest by me actually having to make "good" plays (which usually just involves saccing stuff until I can get scolipede/latios a free swap in) and/or sheer luck.

The matchup issue is a real one that I can sympathize with, but I think that the issue is here in large part due to some obscenely powerful mons that combine the ability to setup with an immediately threatening presence, making it difficult to check and nigh impossible to counter. Giratina-O is actually one of those mons. Dual 120 offenses, strong coverage and a boosting item on the single best STAB typing in XY gives Giratina-O tremendous offensive presence without any setup. After a single calm mind however, many of his checks (which are few to begin with) suddenly stop working so well. Not only because they tend to be specially based (due to most physical mons fearing WoW), but also because most defensive answers to him like clefable and sylveon go from being 3hkos to 2hkos, allowing giratina to win 1v1, and these are supposed to be his strongest "checks".

If Giratina-O was just a very good wall/bruiser with no real sweeping potential ala Heatran, I would welcome him with open arms. However, as I see it now, he is just another threat that I need to add to my list of stuff I need to account for when building my team. He will not reduce the matchup problems of the game because he demands at least one, probably more teamslots just to check him (lol at countering him). Most/all the old sweepers will be just as dangerous as before, DD M-Gyara and Zard-X will still be tearing holes after 1 DD, M-Lopunny will still be an incredible revenge killer, Sand Offense ain't going anywhere, you still have to prepare for most of the same stuff you prepared for before, except now you gotta prepare for Giratina-O.

Frankly, I would prefer the Aegis meta to this one, at least aegis was pretty easy to revenge kill, even with stance dance shenanigans (he also had an OU viable hard counter in Hippo, which is something that cannot be said for Giratina-O).

Woah woah woah, are you calling Mega Audino unviable now?

Its bulky, i think it has access to recovery, and has many supportive options. oh yea it also has a wide variety (not one but TWO fairy stabs) of Fairy type moves so thats a plus. Seriously, everyone is underestimating Mega Audino. It is immune to both of its stabs and 252+ Iron tail does 40% most.

Mega Audino is the reason why G-O deserves to be in OU. Even though its totally useless in every other category, it counters a broken threat, making it an amazing mon.

Okay, back to reality now.

I just wanted to say that this post is great. But im not here to praise it. I'm here to add on to it.

I just gotta say that G-O is just another threat we need to worry about. Sure, checking Lando I is nice, but at what cost again? Instead of worrying about checking Lando I, we have to worry about checking both Lando I and G-O because we needed a check to Lando I. This is what happens. Broken checks broken is a horrible metagame choice and i played atleast 50 games to understand that G-O is unhealthy for this meta. I know we arent allowed to talk about other suspects, but im gonna get to that.

Uber mons down to OU is a great idea, but i cease to understand why you would bring down G-O.

Putting more shit on an already bad meta is just gonna make it worse. Want to make a meta better? I know everyone is tired as fuck to hear this, but why not bring down Aegi?

Balloon Aegislash is a great check to Lando I without Knock Off (even then, say hi to Kings Shield) and MMeta. He also isnt really that good, being revenge killed by many hard hitting mons. The meta changed a lot from Mid XY. Now its all about hard hitting mons. I feel like Aegi would be a good addition, but thats just my opinion.

 

[RoyalDispenser]

Woah woah woah, are you calling Mega Audino unviable now?

Its bulky, i think it has access to recovery, and has many supportive options. oh yea it also has a wide variety (not one but TWO fairy stabs) of Fairy type moves so thats a plus. Seriously, everyone is underestimating Mega Audino. It is immune to both of its stabs and 252+ Iron tail does 40% most.

Mega Audino is the reason why G-O deserves to be in OU. Even though its totally useless in every other category, it counters a broken threat, making it an amazing mon.

Mega Audino can't do anything to giratina-O. It's too passive to function as a counter, or a decent wall for anything. Sure it's immune to his stabs (assuming you're mega'd already) however giratina is still capable of stalling mega audino, especially with the subCM set.

0 SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 144-170 (32.6 - 38.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Giratina-O Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 112-132 (27.3 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (inb4 flinches or honeclaws)

 

[AM]

I know you guys want to just pile ubers after ubers on top of the 20+ centralizing threats in the tier to justify creating a fantastic meta but can we not keep bringing up Aegislash being brought back down? It's not even the focus of discussion and only holds any relevancy if you're using it for a comparison argument. Opinion or not bringing back Aegislash isn't the topic so stop bringing it up thanks.

 

[Froggyboy]

Mega Audino is the reason why G-O deserves to be in OU. Even though its totally useless in every other category, it counters a broken threat, making it an amazing mon.

We aren't introducing a broken Pokemon into OU just because it would make a mediocre Pokemon good. That is like saying Kyorge should be OU so Shedinja can be viable.

 

[Chomp29]

I think what people seem to forget that its sets can handle all types of playstyles well.

Sub CM destroys stall, avoiding status and using its great bulk as an advantage. WoW sets and Offensive sets take on HO with Shadow Sneak to cripple MGallade, Starmie, and Gengar, while Shadow Ball does a decent amount of damage to Special Walls like Heatran. WoW hits MAltaria and Azu hard, two mons that threaten Giratina, and cripples attackers like Scizor and Bisharp immensely, making them almost unusable.

Although Giratina is weakest against balance, it sure as hell is still a threat to it.

Acting as a Defogger AND a spinblocker (an amazing combo) and does not fear Bisharp even with its "bad typing" and so on. also it beats like all of the spinblockers too lol.

All i have to say is that im still really not wanting this in OU at all. just for now. No post really put me on the pro unban side because first of Gira walls 2/3s of the meta and sure as hell doesnt balance it for shit. Stall is nearly unusable. It basically beats all of S rank with a certain moveset, and such.

Also, its not Kyu B, with a much more expansive movepool and great supportive movepool too. It has the unheard combination of being a bulky tank with the ability to revenge kill and wall almost 2/3s of the meta while having a phenomenal movepool.

Also im starting to realize that this isnt an April Fools joke and the OU council is real with this, which i dont really understand.

First of all let me say that I do (at present) agree with you that Giratina is more harmful than helpful to the meta, however your post does little more than justify it as a viable OU threat. Blanket statements such as "Sub Cm destroys stall" are generally unhelpful, and in this case, false. No matter how you look at it, Clefable (either calm mind + magic guard or Unaware + Healbell) is going to win out against CM Giratina, and for the most part, walls its other sets. Clefable is CERTAINLY a pokemon that stall DOES and SHOULD run, especially when something like Giratina is added to the meta, making it even better. Additionally, Sub-CM must run Earth Power or Aura Sphere, (otherwise 4 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 84-100 (21.8 - 25.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery this happens, and you get roared out (or forced out with dragon pulse if its more offensive).

Given that it must run Earth Power or Aura Sphere, your set must be Sub, Cm, Earth Power/Aura, Shadow Ball, narrowing down your potential coverage options vs Stall. One could try to make the case that Dragon Pulse should be run over Shadow Ball, but then you are almost completely incapable of touching any sort of Fairy type, and you then let Pokemon like Mega Altaria get free set ups on you. Other stall Pokemon such as Unaware Quagsire (particularly Bulk UP or slightly specially defensive variants), completely laugh at Sub CM Giratina, and it's rather silly to assume a stall team won't slap on a Clefable or Quagsire or something similar to deal with one of the sets of the most common Pokemon on the OU Suspect ladder.

Additionally, when saying wil-o Giratina does all these things against Offense such as burning Azumarill or Bisharp, or Wearing down Heatran with Shadow Ball, one key assumption has been made, the assumption that Giratina has been able to switch in (something it cannot do with extreme frequency against an offensive team). Now I'm by no means saying that it won't be able to find turns to switch in, I'm merely pointing out that it cannot simply come in whenever it wants to and fire off its wil-o or Draco Meteor. There is also the fact that you only mention some things that it can beat with the right moves, but this means that the opponent did not have other options to switch into it, there are absolutely checks to the offensive wil-o set that offensively inclined teams can use fairly easily, from Air Baloon Heatran, to virtually any Hydreigon set, offense certainly has tools with which to check it.

The bottom line here is that while I do think Giratina is unhealthy for the OU metagame (for reasons I will explain in a later post dedicated to that explanation), I also recognize that the arguments made here are far too general in nature and do not actually make a case for its over-centralization, they merely point out the aspects that Giratina posseses that allow it to be a functional OU Pokemon.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

First of all let me say that I do (at present) agree with you that Giratina is more harmful than helpful to the meta, however your post does little more than justify it as a viable OU threat. Blanket statements such as "Sub Cm destroys stall" are generally unhelpful, and in this case, false. No matter how you look at it, Clefable (either calm mind + magic guard or Unaware + Healbell) is going to win out against CM Giratina, and for the most part, walls its other sets. Clefable is CERTAINLY a pokemon that stall DOES and SHOULD run, especially when something like Giratina is added to the meta, making it even better. Additionally, Sub-CM must run Earth Power or Aura Sphere, (otherwise 4 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 84-100 (21.8 - 25.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery this happens, and you get roared out (or forced out with dragon pulse if its more offensive).

Given that it must run Earth Power or Aura Sphere, your set must be Sub, Cm, Earth Power/Aura, Shadow Ball, narrowing down your potential coverage options vs Stall. One could try to make the case that Dragon Pulse should be run over Shadow Ball, but then you are almost completely incapable of touching any sort of Fairy type, and you then let Pokemon like Mega Altaria get free set ups on you. Other stall Pokemon such as Unaware Quagsire (particularly Bulk UP or slightly specially defensive variants), completely laugh at Sub CM Giratina, and it's rather silly to assume a stall team won't slap on a Clefable or Quagsire or something similar to deal with one of the sets of the most common Pokemon on the OU Suspect ladder.

Additionally, when saying wil-o Giratina does all these things against Offense such as burning Azumarill or Bisharp, or Wearing down Heatran with Shadow Ball, one key assumption has been made, the assumption that Giratina has been able to switch in (something it cannot do with extreme frequency against an offensive team). Now I'm by no means saying that it won't be able to find turns to switch in, I'm merely pointing out that it cannot simply come in whenever it wants to and fire off its wil-o or Draco Meteor. There is also the fact that you only mention some things that it can beat with the right moves, but this means that the opponent did not have other options to switch into it, there are absolutely checks to the offensive wil-o set that offensively inclined teams can use fairly easily, from Air Baloon Heatran, to virtually any Hydreigon set, offense certainly has tools with which to check it.

The bottom line here is that while I do think Giratina is unhealthy for the OU metagame (for reasons I will explain in a later post dedicated to that explanation), I also recognize that the arguments made here are far too general in nature and do not actually make a case for its over-centralization, they merely point out the aspects that Giratina posseses that allow it to be a functional OU Pokemon.

Hold it there.

Sub CM does do a shitload, with like the only 2 things that can do anything is Unaware users, which both get destroyed by MMeta, a great core partner. No sane user will stay into Clef with Giratina anyways.
Heatran, easy to whittle down, takes some damage from Heatran. also, 4 SpA? whats that? I wasnt saying it countered it, but it does considerable damage. i personally run 252+ SpA, so here goes nuttin

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 112-133 (29 - 34.5%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Heatran does not like taking 30% up from something its supposed to switch into. It can toxic at most and then Giratina can easily get Heal Bell support (again, really easy to get) In a 1v1 scenario, Giratina wins, if Tran doesnt have Roar. I dont remember the SpD set running Roar either, but thats just me.

I dont get why people want to hit Fairy types. Its a goddamn Dragon, you get your ass outta there like the last mission in Halo 3. You switch into a steel and you threaten them out.

WoW does cripple offensive attackers. it does whittle Heatran. And yes, im switching in with it. But it sure as hell isnt switching in every 2 turns. I never stated that. it can get free opportunities to switch in (Revenge kill, double switch, switching into a keldeo are a few examples) and most of the time people dont use him as a wall because hes glue to a team. I'm not saying its a heatran counter either because it merely walls him and Heatran can wear it down himself. I definetly agree with you that it cant switch in as it pleases, only on things that gets hard walled by it.

but honestly i agree with you as a whole but i do think its a bit broken myself.

Also, the MAudino thing as a joke.

I didnt think people would make serious replies over it, but ok.

 

[56k]

I think giratina naturally balances itself out because of its speed tier. Compared to a pokemon like mega metagross (who is also extremely strong offensively as well as extremely bulky), there is a MUCH wider pool of revenge mons to choose from that can outspeed and ohko giratina.

If you want to outspeed and ohko metagross you're awfully limited to pokemon like houndoom, manetric, scarf lando, and scarf tran. With giratina VERY few sets go timid/jolly, so anything 80+ is faster and there are options like garchomp, kyu-b, hydreigon, latis, gardevoir, altaria, salamence, and dragonite to outspeed and ohko. However, none of these pokemon appreciate switching into a modest draco or a modest shadow ball or an adamant shadow force. Furthermore there are a huge amount of pokemon that can outspeed and 2hko giratina without being killed back.

Giratina achieves the same thing as most other powerful bulky threats: forces a 1-1 trade and then gets easily revenge killed (or dangerously switches out, dangerous because the checks like gardevoir and kyu-b are incredibly hard to switch into)



A team is not inherently better by choosing giratina. A lot of people here seem to think that you should just choose a mega, choose a giratina set, and you immediately have 1/3 of your team. The thing is, giratina only offers resistances in the FWG triad and does absolutely nothing in the dragon/fairy/steel motif.

A team with giratina is almost certainly weak to azumarill or kyu-b or altaria or diancie or gardevoir. "Sacrificing" a slot to ensure giratina gets his place on your team already puts incredibly pressure on you to have some safe dragon/fairy switch ins. It is also very unlikely that your mega pokemon can switch into these things. Most people only afford one steel type alongside it, and at best you'll have metagross/giratina/heatran core. Most people only manage one steel type. These teams are incredibly prone to fairies and dragons with any type of ground/fire/dark coverage and ground in particular if immunities get taken out.

What I'm trying to say is that giratina is not automatically choice number 1 for your team. For me, choice number one is a fairy resistance. And it actually becomes difficult to justify adding in a giratina in the 5th or 6th slot.

 

[toshimelonhead]

Oh please update the number of battles to reflect the increase in GXE to 2750:

GXE N
100: 32
90: 44
85: 56
80: 78
75: 136
70: 654 Start over

 

[ボーイ]

Giratina-Origin is so Boss. The bulk and power alone is too overwhelming to ignore, yet the speed tier itself, to me is reason enough worth the suspect. As far as the meta goes, I don't see Giratina-Origin polarizing to a single play style. It already seems like the face of bulky offense, trick room teams easily serves the welcome, hyper offense is likely to run it with scolipass, and stall is very likely to utilize the will-o-wisp/hex/defog. Sounds overcentralizing doesn't it? Who knows maybe it is broken, but to me it's also a boost for everybody.

 

[Darth Darkrai]

Mega Audino can't do anything to giratina-O. It's too passive to function as a counter, or a decent wall for anything. Sure it's immune to his stabs (assuming you're mega'd already) however giratina is still capable of stalling mega audino, especially with the subCM set.

0 SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 144-170 (32.6 - 38.5%) -- 98.5% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Giratina-O Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 112-132 (27.3 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (inb4 flinches or honeclaws)

We aren't introducing a broken Pokemon into OU just because it would make a mediocre Pokemon good. That is like saying Kyorge should be OU so Shedinja can be viable.

Oh for God's sake, is nobody capable of recognizing sarcasm when they see it?! (At least I hope it was sarcasm...)

Alright, so after trying out Giratina myself on the Suspect Ladder, my opinion has not changed in the slightest. In my first four games where the opponent had a Giratina, each opponent used a different set each time. No replays, since I don't want people to see how much I was sucking (and it wasn't just cause I was up against Giratina), but I ran into people using a Defog/Utility attacker set, a physical all-out-attacking set, a special all-out attacking set, and a SubCM set (which is also what I was using). I'm surprised I haven't seen any CroCune style sets yet (I'mma have to start using it then), but this should be enough to make one thing clear: there's no way in hell any Pokemon can check all of those sets at once. They're just too different from each other. If I'm right, you might be able to consistently check each common Giratina set with as few as two or three Pokemon. Of course, Giratina users are gonna be running partners to counter its few checks, so you're going to have to take common partners into account as well.

And therein lies the problem. In order to consistently be able to counter Giratina, you're gonna need to build your entire team around taking care of it and its common partners. That, or use Giratina yourself to level the playing field. Now, does that sound like a particularly fun metagame to most of you? As much as I've enjoyed myself using it, even when I was getting 6-0'd because I keep making crappy plays, I can't see that lasting till the end of the suspect test, much less the foreseeable future.

 

[wes.falcon]

Giratina is good, ofc it is, and I think the main issue with it is NONE of it's stats are really bad. I mean it's lowest stat is 90. Probably it's biggest hindrance IMO is that it's forced to use sp00ky orb.

The biggest problem with Gira-O is probably the fact that it has a massive 150hp to sit on, making whittling it down hard, but 100 defences, yes, are good, but not unstoppable. But there isn't many unboosted attacks that can OHKO Gira-O.

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 524-620 (103.9 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Yes, it KOs, but...

252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Giratina-O: 416-492 (82.5 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Yeah, 170 Base Attack, using a 120 Base Power Move with STAB AND Super Effective damage fails to OHKO this guy.

Then you look at this:

0 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 428-506 (94.2 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

...Mhm

 

[robofiend]

I think Giratina-O might end up being a good fit. With weaknesses to Ice, Fairy, Dark and Dragon, it's not like this thing is going to be a Mega-Sableye tier staller, but it has the bulk to give Megazard, Landorus and Serperior a little less presence as offensive powerhouses. The problem with these guys (and Manectric as well) is that they can reliably chip away at your team without much fear of having to take damage or switch out (fog/spin support for Zard isn't that hard). Unlike other checks to these strong special sweepers, Giratina can actually provide some offense that forces them out. Chansey, the next best option, is a notorious "sitting duck" on anything but stall teams, while Heatran, Skarmory or Tyranitar are either picked off by one of these poke's coverage moves or unable to deal with other strong attacking types like Water/Fighting. Giratina handily prevents Fire/Ground/Fighting/Water from ripping your balanced team apart without its fair share of downsides.

Being weak to Knock-Off AND having an item that's more or less necessary is a minor death sentence, given the move's popularity, and Giratina has little recourse for stopping the tier's Pursuit trappers (Tyranitar, Bisharp, Scizor, etc.) From swapping in on one of its STABs.

Wall of calcs of Dark Types vs. Physically defensive Gira:
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 182-216 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 237-281 (53.7 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 222-264 (50.3 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 212-252 (48 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage (note: this is = pursuit on switch)
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 186-220 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 254-302 (57.5 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 152-180 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And that's not to mention that one of Giratina's STABs is bait for the strongest attacking type we currently have: Fairy. Imo this thing helps to make up for a lack of offensive Fire/Ground/Water resists in the tier and should fit in nicely without being overly centralizing.

 

[Red Cat]

Here are 10 reasons why Giratina-O should not be OU:

• Amazing bulk makes it almost impossible to OHKO
• Powerful STABs like Draco Meteor and Shadow Force allow it to hit hard from both sides
• Requires no opportunity cost to use
• Immune to three types
• Learns a lot of good support moves like Defog, Will-o-Wisp, and Thunder Wave
• Forces people to run obscure counters
• Offenses are very good with Griseous Orb
• Overcentralizes the meta around it
• Lots of viable sets makes it hard to predict
• Slap it on your team to blanket check 2/3 of the meta

 

[Temporelucis]

T-wave + Hex isn't even that bad oml

Just click the yellow button on the predicted switch and then:
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Sylveon: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also if you get a Scald/Lava Plume burn on Mega-Eye you're good to go.
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 235-277 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
This needs no explanation.
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (130 BP) vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 243-286 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
i don't like this 'mon :(

 

[Darth Darkrai]

I think Giratina-O might end up being a good fit. With weaknesses to Ice, Fairy, Dark and Dragon, it's not like this thing is going to be a Mega-Sableye tier staller, but it has the bulk to give Megazard, Landorus and Serperior a little less presence as offensive powerhouses. The problem with these guys (and Manectric as well) is that they can reliably chip away at your team without much fear of having to take damage or switch out (fog/spin support for Zard isn't that hard). Unlike other checks to these strong special sweepers, Giratina can actually provide some offense that forces them out. Chansey, the next best option, is a notorious "sitting duck" on anything but stall teams, while Heatran, Skarmory or Tyranitar are either picked off by one of these poke's coverage moves or unable to deal with other strong attacking types like Water/Fighting. Giratina handily prevents Fire/Ground/Fighting/Water from ripping your balanced team apart without its fair share of downsides.

Being weak to Knock-Off AND having an item that's more or less necessary is a minor death sentence, given the move's popularity, and Giratina has little recourse for stopping the tier's Pursuit trappers (Tyranitar, Bisharp, Scizor, etc.) From swapping in on one of its STABs.

Wall of calcs of Dark Types vs. Physically defensive Gira:
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 182-216 (41.2 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 237-281 (53.7 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 222-264 (50.3 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 212-252 (48 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage (note: this is = pursuit on switch)
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 186-220 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 248 Def Giratina-O: 254-302 (57.5 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Giratina-O: 152-180 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And that's not to mention that one of Giratina's STABs is bait for the strongest attacking type we currently have: Fairy. Imo this thing helps to make up for a lack of offensive Fire/Ground/Water resists in the tier and should fit in nicely without being overly centralizing.

Alright, I'm not gonna respond to all of this, cause I've dealt with a lot of this in prior posts. However, there's a few mistakes I keep seeing popping up that I want to deal with.

First off, Giratina is not weak to Knock Off. Or rather, not as weak as other mons. A lot of people seem to think that Knock Off always gets its damage bonus on every hit because Griseous Orb can never get knocked off (not necessarily saying that's true in your case, robofiend). That's not how Knock Off works. Since Griseous Orb can never be knocked off, Knock Off never gets bonus damage, just like with Mega Stones.

Second, as previously noted, Griseous Orb is far from useless as an item. It functions as a Spooky Plate AND a Draco Plate, which can never be Knocked Off (and prevents Knock Off's bonus damage). As someone noted (too lazy to check who right now), if you factor this permanent damage bonus into stat values, Giratina actually has base 154 in both offensive stats while attacking with its STAB attacks. And there's no really significant drawbacks to this power either, other than the inability to run Lefties, except even defensive sets benefit from this power, because it lets Giratina hit HARD even with no investment, making it an extremely potent wall that will still be able to hit hard.

Third, Bisharp and Tyranitar (and to a lesser extent other Dark types) are not good counters for a Pokemon that commonly runs Aura Sphere, regardless of how much damage they can do. Not only that, but Giratina doesn't have to run a huge amount of Speed EVs to outspeed Adamant Bisharp, either.

As for those other "counters" you mentioned, yeah, they can do a bit more damage than other Pokemon against that variant of Giratina. Let's see how they do against an offensive version:

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 195-229 (56.8 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If a specially offensive Giratina hits Scizor on the switch, it's not gonna live long enough to take it down, as Giratina will outspeed it, and Giratina probably won't be weak enough for Bullet Punch to finish it off.

Let's see how M-Sable fares.

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 235-277 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Even if Sable survives, and factoring in the SAtk drop, Sable's gonna die before Gira does.

Even Gira's Shadow Ball does more to Sable than Sable does to Gira.

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 144-171 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And woe be to them if it's a SubCM version and Gira sets up a sub on the switch, or if it's a CroGira version.

Your calcs actually prove the point I've been trying to make. There's plenty of stuff that can counter a given Giratina set, but very VERY few things can counter all of them. The one concession I will make after doing those calcs is that Mandibuzz is actually a pretty good counter for most Gira sets, making it one of the few I've come up with so far that can actually fo that. But Mandibuzz is itself fairly easy to counter, and most teams will probably have a counter for it without even trying to, simply because it hates SR, Fairies, and Electric types. So, I'll give that one point to you, but even a half-decent team still probably won't be troubled by it.

Fourth, I'd also like to point out that given how well Gira goes with MegaGross, I think you're overestimating how much impact Fairies will have on Gira's usage. And besides, if you're leaving Gira in against Fairies you know can beat it, you deserve whatever you get.

And finally, where did you get the idea that there's no offensive ground, water, and fire resists in the tier? Keldeo resists Fire and Water, while Lando-I is immune to ground. Mega Altaria can also be used offensively and it resists Fire and Water, and is immune to Ground before Mega Evolving. So, three out of the four S-ranks, all three of which see play on offensive teams, resist or are immune to AT LEAST one of those.

EDIT: I forgot to put Griseous Orb on my original calcs. After scolding people for underestimating it. Why do I insist on doing this stuff late at night? I've corrected my original calcs. And, now that I have Griseous Orb on:

252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 246-291 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Now, Mandi's still a great counter, but that does make a pretty big difference.

 

[wes.falcon]

T-wave + Hex isn't even that bad oml

Just click the yellow button on the predicted switch and then:
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Sylveon: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also if you get a Scald/Lava Plume burn on Mega-Eye you're good to go.
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 235-277 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
This needs no explanation.
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (130 BP) vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 243-286 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
i don't like this 'mon :(

Don't forget Gira-O gets Will-O & Toxic

 

[NotSoClutch]

T-wave + Hex isn't even that bad oml

Just click the yellow button on the predicted switch and then:
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Sylveon: 204-241 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also if you get a Scald/Lava Plume burn on Mega-Eye you're good to go.
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 235-277 (77.3 - 91.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
This needs no explanation.
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Hex (130 BP) vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 243-286 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
i don't like this 'mon :(

How do you plan on statusing mega Sableye? Also, you have to use two turns to do this damage. Sure status + hex is a cool little thing for Giratina, but these calcs don't show brokeness in the slightest.

 

[fish anemometer]

^ he said, if you get the burn with scald/lava plume prior to Gira coming in.

 

[Kingler]

I'd like to bring up that we shouldn't just toss aside the fact that Gira-O wasn't the most viable as a suspect for OU. This sets precedent for a lot of arbitrary suspects/bans and imo does more harm in the long run. Also, to people who say Gira-O makes Mega Audino more viable and common Pokemon less viable, it clearly shows how polarizing this 'mon is and how unhealthily centralizing/broken it is. It has immense versatility along with immediate power and also its bulk gives you a catch-all against a lot of attackers. I mean, the LO Bisharp Knock Off calc probably doesn't mean much but the fact that it doesn't even 2HKO (from one of the more "reliable" says to deal with Giratina) definitely speaks about how incredible its stats are. And a comparison with Mega Evolutions that have similar stats isn't accurate as you're giving up your Mega slot while Gira-O doesn't have any such opportunity cost.

I might make a more comprehensive post later and didn't even plan on posting here because of, well, reasons, but just wanted to say some stuff.

 

[Athicus]

Don't forget Gira-O gets Will-O & Toxic

Statusing Gliscor isn't even necessary since it's probably going to poison itself, allowing one to Sub/CM when it comes in and then use Hex straight off.