Nattorei is 3HKOed at least by Hydro Pump, it does not counter rain teams at all. Kingdra also frequently carry HP Fighting. Kabu and Ludi do NOT have similar counters, either. Don't just say tings with no backing
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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I wish I could understand what you're trying to say.
Stop with the internet speak and write correctly. Is there a spell checker here? >.>
First and foremost as a suspect voter and smogon irc Aop you could at least try to be respectful. Your position is no excuse to be so disrespectful. Your post is very "one-sided" and you aren't showing the other perspective, it isn't a political contest, it's pokemon.
Saying " YOU have fun against rain because your team doesn't have problems with rain. I guarantee that you run your own weather / and or have abused rain. It has blinded to you rains brokeness imo. " Who are you to speak like that? It's so pompous.
This entire debate/discussion is carried out with a level of "smugness"(I'm not just referring to you) that isn't needed. Revealing both sides of the argument and speaking with respect, is the way to go.
Overall I think the "time" limit of this test is a bit short. Every single person isn't running a rain team in order to compete. The metagame is still fresh and new.
how i made it very clear i don't compromise my ho sand team instead i have options where i can check most of those big threats.
I didn't say that there were a lot of counters to Rain, I merely said that what you initially said was unfeasible. In any case, there are more counters than merely Aboma/Natt. Blissey can handle non-Physical Ludi, Toxicroak can take Kabutops, etc.
Now admittedly this makes a portion of the traditional OU pokes unviable, but many have some utility or much in countering Rain. Added to this the possibility of running TTar, Hippo, Tales, Aboma, weather moves on something, Trace Scarfers, Cloud Nine Scarfers, etc, there are numerous options to deal with Rain.
Given that a lot of these options also deal with weathers other than Rain, it seems to me that the meta is undergoing a shift to a more weather based one. Not necessarily a weather-centric one, but nonetheless. Rain and Sun now being viable and SS being more so as a dedicated style seems to have limited the viability of the weatherless pokes. Perhaps the balance is currently wrong as it stands though, which is why I would rather ban Rain abusers, rather than removing Drizzle from this emerging new meta. However, I don't see what is the issue with the prevalent OU meta having weathers as a prime feature in it, in fact I see it this theorised meta as a more diverse one. For this reason, I think banning Drizzle is a bad idea.
Edit @ Masterful: I never ever stated that the rain abusers had similar counters, in fact that is the exact opposite of the point i was making. Natt can carry T-Wave to cripple Kingdra or Leech Seed/Protect to stall it out. Or, it can use SS to remove that 3HKO and cause many other issues for the Rain team.
Sand can deal with Rain.
Weather can fight weather.
Balance can't deal very well with Rain.
Rain out classes balance
One of the best ways to catch rain sweepers is to cripple them with status. Nattorei is extremely effective in doing so, as you said it doesn't get 2hkod. Kingdra to me is borderline, it's the only rain sweeper that really stands out as a menace to beat, so I'll give you that one. I think the problem is Kingdra and not Drizzle. You don't have to run weather to defeat rain, but you do need a good team for sure. It has to be better suited to beat threats than any weather changing team and that's a daunting task for someone starting out in a new metagame, so I can see why nobody bothers.
You have your opinion, and I respect that. I saw many players (some notable) in the thread saying that Rain isn't as bad as everyone thinks. There's two sides to this. Plus as you can see from the Inconsistent vote, the amount of people thinking rain is broken won't sway my vote.
My teams don't have as many problems with rain because when I see a threat that beats me I stop to think about what I can do to defeat it. For your information, I have used Sand, Rain and no weather teams this metagame. I don't appreciate your assumptions about what style I play and what I abuse. I have not forgotten anything concerning the new pokemon. In fact, that's another reason as to why Rain is more manageable, as there are so many new pokemon that can check and destroy rain.
I had a feeling you would say this. I don't feel that taking a long time to decide a ban is such a bad thing. Right now weather is probably the biggest part of the metagame. To throw that away in one month just doesn't seem fair. When something this major is up on the chopping block, I would want to make sure we tested everything possible so we know for sure it was the right decision. It'll be very hard later on to give it a fair chance should we ban it now and wonder if that was for the best. My opinion on those bannings:
Garchomp - Uber
Latias - Uber
Salamence - OU
You just think it's impossible. I'm not going to say you haven't tried but I think you really should try a bit more. If I can do it I think most others can. I'm not a genius or anything and I've been able to figure it out.
I know you don't, I just felt I should defend myself against an unfair jab at my ability to argue. Inconsistent had never beat me out of the 50-75 times I faced it. I didn't do anything remarkable against it, but I always had a plan going into it and carried it out. I may have gotten lucky a couple of times but the fact that it never beat me outright really showed me that it wasn't broken. Just another gimmicky play style that will fade out one day. I vote based on my experiences, and while I take others into account, mine always comes first. The fact that everytime I tried to reason that it wasn't broken to me I was met with negativity and sarcastic remarks really hampered others' opinions.
I know when something is broken, and in this case, rain just doesn't measure up. That could change, sure, but for the time being that's my thought on it.
strange how when i chose sand my desision was more so i can build around my favorite poke tar, rain is an added bonus + sand needs support to top rain keep that in mind i run the electric genie in part to help w/ rain.
edit: u think i genuinely like having a play-style that if i make a mistake i would normally get away w/o too much cost if i'm overall playing well that suddenly puts me on the brink of defeat even if i'm @ my absolute best, no. so don't say just because i run a team that handles rain fairly well that i think the rest of the meta should have to suffer. no i've said this b4 there are only a handful of actually dangerous rain abusers i know the shift removing manaphy will create just go 2 the beta server their meta is ours w/o manaphy but w/ deoxys-n/inconsistent the latter of which is not used too much as it is widely frowned upon.
Quit whining, man. He's not "abusing his position". He, like me, is just incredibly frustrated at all the fools who definitely won't be suspect voters blindly declaring Drizzle okay to use. If people on the opposing side of the argument would MAKE LOGICAL POINTS, and say things besides: "you guys are just repeating the same thing" or "you guys just aren't ood at teambuilding" we would be perfectly happy to speak as if our audience is not a bunch of children who will mindlessly say the same damn thing over ad over
Nope. Never said he was. It was a general comment to everyone in this thread.
I'm sorry but I'm no fool and there is a good chance I will be a suspect voter. That should scare you. If the people declaring this weren't good players then why would you even care? I haven't seen you make one logical point yet, and because of that this is the last response I will give you.
It must be nice being able to completely ignore people every time they completely obliterate the points you make. I guess you are just a fool who WILL be a suspect voter, likely because you abuse Drizzle yourself. This is why I'm happy Drizzle will likely be banned, and the suspect test may become once again something done by intelligent people
Alright, so... lets look at where everyone agrees first.
The current metagame combination of drizzle and swift swim is broken. This can be seen in two distinct ways:
1) You can say drizzle is broken, because in the old meta swift swim was fine... and what has changed? Same pokes use the same moves... only new things are counters really.
2) You can say Swift swim is broken, because it is this +2 speed coupled with the boost they get from the rain on damage... and while it's not broken for 8 turns, the opening of drizzle to the rain meta makes swift swim too much to keep around.
Given these arguments, we should all start arguing about the rest. A weather+boost metagame is over-centralizing no matter how you look at it. A healthy metagame has many strategies and a decently large pool of pokemon to pull from, and the boosting weather does not allow either.
Please stop arguing about what can counter swift swim, as it isn't a relevant discussion based on the two options left to us. If you argue to ban drizzle OR swift swim, it will remove the problem you are arguing about, and we already know that 8 turns of swift swim is not broken based on the carryover from gen 4 that exists (all the sweepers are the same, and there are even more counters than when it was allowed in gen 4, thus the logic is that the 8 turn swift swim is not broken).
The issue here is ONLY which is the best way to handle the situation at hand: ban drizzle, or ban swift swim. The only way that you can make a valid argument to support or rebut the ban of either is to cite specific sources that you expect to change in the meta and how those changes are good or bad.
Another question for both is: will removing it fix the over-centralization, or just shuffle it around?
Looking at both it is quite obvious that neither is broken by itself.
Now, lets look at where the meta will end up for each.
1) Ban Drizzle
Here, we will see rain move back down the ladder, and probably changes in other weathers as well to reflect the dramatic change in the meta and create balance (meaning that while there will obviously have to be changes, but what those are would have to be determined by testing and can't be argued about). Politeod will be NU without drizzle, but used in Uber sometimes to drizzle around and get some pokes outspeeding the ubers... though its much less viable there (not a relevant point but i figured i'd put it in). Rain will still be used, mostly on kingdra as double dance or mix rain... or other similar sets that may pop up from the new walls. It won't win every game, but it has a utility place in the meta, and a gimmick place at the bottom of the tier as a gimmick full-rain team (which always has been around, and certainly won't go away). There never was a spot in the real meta for rain stall (also probably considered a gimmick because of all the taunting in this meta aside from normal counters), so its loss appears insignificant. Rain gains the spot on teams of being like agility+flame orb for guts pokemon, requiring one turn setup and normally being used later in the game as a 1-2 pop to finish (as is the idea with any boosted sweeper... or even regular sweeper).
2) Ban Swift Swim
Here, we also see rain move down the ladder. This removes the usefulness of a good number of pokemon, including kingdra and ludicolo, to more than likely BL usage (again, there may be a small amount of rain stall ludicolo, but it would all still be considered a gimmick and probably not a part of the meta). Most people will not run Drizzle politoed because it is no longer worth the team space. Water will almost completely leave the meta, becomming like Sunny Day was in gen 4, except even less viable even if built well. Not only is the most common and normally only used rain strategy gone, but all the pokemon who used it lose their spots in ou to pokemon who are better DD users, or stronger/better water hitters that won't require moving first or have agility to help (empoleon comes to mind with his old sub+pet to torrent). It will also prompt looking at the same ability for sun/sand, though that is something that can't be accurately predicted as far as outcomes.
Edit:
It was brought to my attention that there is a third argument, so i'll look at the meta changes for this as well.
3) Banning Weather Abusers
As with the other two, rain will go back down in usage. In fact, this strategy will be very similar in effect to banning swift swim, as it removes the same pokemon. If we analyze the subtle differences, it includes manaphy (though in the other examples i'm figuring it will end up banned anyway, but that's speculation), and it removes things instead of making them low usage. Kingdra will be an uber instead of BL, and no defensive teams would be able to take advantage of the defensive capabilities it has (though it would be used much less, it would still have a spot on a few teams, as did honchcrow on many teams for gen 4). This argument more than likely requires us to look at each and figure out where the line is drawn for broken, allowing swift swim to possibly stay around in a lesser form. Its a subtle difference at a first glance, but it can have a few different effects on the metagame that, while not crucial, require at least a look to decide which is better.
</edit>
Now the real question: Which of these two metagames is a better way to go about it? Please don't try to tell me that rain without swift swim will be used, as we all know it won't. Please don't try to tell me that Kingrda will be useful without swift swim, as I'll reply "only as a niche pokemon with BL usage." Please don't tell me that rain doesn't make a good utility for sweeping at the end of a game if it takes a turn to use, as it was a viable strategy that has multiple sets on smogon from gen 4 and will still be viable in gen 5, possibly with a few EV/move changes.
So which is it? would you rather remove rain from the meta nearly completely, or keep it around and use it mostly as a utility as before. Its all an opinion fest after these facts, so which do you prefer and why?
The current metagame combination of drizzle and swift swim is broken. This can be seen in two distinct ways:
1) You can say drizzle is broken, because in the old meta swift swim was fine... and what has changed? Same pokes use the same moves... only new things are counters really.
2) You can say Swift swim is broken, because it is this +2 speed coupled with the boost they get from the rain on damage... and while it's not broken for 8 turns, the opening of drizzle to the rain meta makes swift swim too much to keep around.
Given these arguments, we should all start arguing about the rest. A weather+boost metagame is over-centralizing no matter how you look at it. A healthy metagame has many strategies and a decently large pool of pokemon to pull from, and the boosting weather does not allow either.
Please stop arguing about what can counter swift swim, as it isn't a relevant discussion based on the two options left to us. If you argue to ban drizzle OR swift swim, it will remove the problem you are arguing about, and we already know that 8 turns of swift swim is not broken based on the carryover from gen 4 that exists (all the sweepers are the same, and there are even more counters than when it was allowed in gen 4, thus the logic is that the 8 turn swift swim is not broken).
The issue here is ONLY which is the best way to handle the situation at hand: ban drizzle, or ban swift swim. The only way that you can make a valid argument to support or rebut the ban of either is to cite specific sources that you expect to change in the meta and how those changes are good or bad.
Another question for both is: will removing it fix the over-centralization, or just shuffle it around?
Looking at both it is quite obvious that neither is broken by itself.
Now, lets look at where the meta will end up for each.
1) Ban Drizzle
Here, we will see rain move back down the ladder, and probably changes in other weathers as well to reflect the dramatic change in the meta and create balance (meaning that while there will obviously have to be changes, but what those are would have to be determined by testing and can't be argued about). Politeod will be NU without drizzle, but used in Uber sometimes to drizzle around and get some pokes outspeeding the ubers... though its much less viable there (not a relevant point but i figured i'd put it in). Rain will still be used, mostly on kingdra as double dance or mix rain... or other similar sets that may pop up from the new walls. It won't win every game, but it has a utility place in the meta, and a gimmick place at the bottom of the tier as a gimmick full-rain team (which always has been around, and certainly won't go away). There never was a spot in the real meta for rain stall (also probably considered a gimmick because of all the taunting in this meta aside from normal counters), so its loss appears insignificant. Rain gains the spot on teams of being like agility+flame orb for guts pokemon, requiring one turn setup and normally being used later in the game as a 1-2 pop to finish (as is the idea with any boosted sweeper... or even regular sweeper).
2) Ban Swift Swim
Here, we also see rain move down the ladder. This removes the usefulness of a good number of pokemon, including kingdra and ludicolo, to more than likely BL usage (again, there may be a small amount of rain stall ludicolo, but it would all still be considered a gimmick and probably not a part of the meta). Most people will not run Drizzle politoed because it is no longer worth the team space. Water will almost completely leave the meta, becomming like Sunny Day was in gen 4, except even less viable even if built well. Not only is the most common and normally only used rain strategy gone, but all the pokemon who used it lose their spots in ou to pokemon who are better DD users, or stronger/better water hitters that won't require moving first or have agility to help (empoleon comes to mind with his old sub+pet to torrent). It will also prompt looking at the same ability for sun/sand, though that is something that can't be accurately predicted as far as outcomes.
Edit:
It was brought to my attention that there is a third argument, so i'll look at the meta changes for this as well.
3) Banning Weather Abusers
As with the other two, rain will go back down in usage. In fact, this strategy will be very similar in effect to banning swift swim, as it removes the same pokemon. If we analyze the subtle differences, it includes manaphy (though in the other examples i'm figuring it will end up banned anyway, but that's speculation), and it removes things instead of making them low usage. Kingdra will be an uber instead of BL, and no defensive teams would be able to take advantage of the defensive capabilities it has (though it would be used much less, it would still have a spot on a few teams, as did honchcrow on many teams for gen 4). This argument more than likely requires us to look at each and figure out where the line is drawn for broken, allowing swift swim to possibly stay around in a lesser form. Its a subtle difference at a first glance, but it can have a few different effects on the metagame that, while not crucial, require at least a look to decide which is better.
</edit>
Now the real question: Which of these two metagames is a better way to go about it? Please don't try to tell me that rain without swift swim will be used, as we all know it won't. Please don't try to tell me that Kingrda will be useful without swift swim, as I'll reply "only as a niche pokemon with BL usage." Please don't tell me that rain doesn't make a good utility for sweeping at the end of a game if it takes a turn to use, as it was a viable strategy that has multiple sets on smogon from gen 4 and will still be viable in gen 5, possibly with a few EV/move changes.
So which is it? would you rather remove rain from the meta nearly completely, or keep it around and use it mostly as a utility as before. Its all an opinion fest after these facts, so which do you prefer and why?
1) And i think that Drizzle is a good reason for using it so i don´t see the problem, and you can say that there isn´t a reason for using Drizzle Politoed without Swift Swim but we haven´t tested it so we don´t know.
2) There are even good pokemons that aren´t water types but can make use of the water attack boost (the double STAB isn´t the only part of the water offensive), and Thunder as coverage move, and some pokemons can be water types without Thunder but they can even be good (Kingdra without SwiftSwim, for example), and as i have said we haven´t tested how rain can work without Swift Swim.
3) Porygon-Z don´t represent all the SwiftSwimmer and even less represent all the rain sweepers that aren´t SwiftSwimmers (the samething goes for Porygon2), it´s sure that Kingdra will be OU in anyway, it can DD and become a powerful sweeper (not broken but it can knock somethings out), and if you think that the other SwiftSwimmer will be used if you ban Drizzle instead of baning Swift Swim i can ensure you that no, they won´t, now, we can have too Cloyster, Toxicroak, Zapdos and some offensive Tentacruel, Kerudio, Rotom-W and in a lesser extent Jolteon, Magnezone, Lati@s, Voltrolos, Dragonite, Gengar, Gyarados, etc. that can make a good usage of rain even without SwiftSwim (and not all needs both, water attacks and Thunder/Gale for it), and nearly none of these are like Porygon-Z or Porygon2 in nothing.
4) I´ve explained you my example, CC isn´t the only 120 bp. attack, and Lickilicky is bulky but it haven´t a good typing and Porygon2 have recovery, better stats and a better ability so it is a better normal-type wall.
5) Yes, rain offense without Swift Swim would not be like Gen 4th Rain offense, Is this what you want to hear? Okay, i´ve said it, now, What is the idea of all it?.
6) I´m too wondering of how can be Politoed more used than Tyranitar, it just can occurs in a weatherless version of a metagame dominated by steel types (Nattorei) and fighting types (Roopushin/Blaziken), oh wait...!, now speaking seriously, the idea of that Politoed is worth for a slot only in a team around it, is logic, but SwiftSwim isn´t the only thing that makes rain useful.
7) The idea of all these bans is making a better metagame and we can take many decisions for it, we are now debating the best decision, and if you think that Chlorophyll can work in a balanced metagame, then it is your opinion but i think that Chlorophyll is equal and even worst than SwiftSwim (and perhaps it is not very notorius now but assuming that we ban Drizzle or SwiftSwim, then it can become a problem, and i think that the best solution for it is baning SwiftSwim/SandThrow/Chlorophyll instead of baning auto-weather, i think that it will early balance the metagame, and perhaps we must test it, and how you can see i´m not the first that think it).
8) Perhaps you weren´t comparing Politoed with Porygon-Z, but the idea of all it is that i think that the double STAB of Politoed (and other things that it have) are enough dangerous for condering it a worth threat for OU, and even more if it too mean other x1.5 bonus to the water attacks of other pokemons on your team (and really, you have been arguing about Porygon-Z/Politoed with me for long time even when you haven´t said it first so i think that it is officially part of the discussion).
I'll edit that in, good idea ^^
edit:
k, I added in that. Hope i captured what the differences were, i'm not an expert on that one. If i missed something just tell me ^^
There is one thing that I didn't get:
If a pokemon is able to counter even one of the biggest OU threats (rain sweepers) how is it useless? It probably was in the 4th gen OU tier, but now it has a nice niche. People need to think outside the box sometimes.
P.S: No, I don't use ludicolo/kingdra/kabutops, even though I have a NU/UU team that benefits from drizzle (which makes interesting but underwhelming pokemon great again!). If that trio is that impossible to defeat, well, make them uber. Banning drizzle as a whole will just make the metagame less diverse in my opinion (sandstorm teams are already everywhere, probably 7 out of 10 teams I face, banning rain would just make things worse).
If a pokemon is able to counter even one of the biggest OU threats (rain sweepers) how is it useless? It probably was in the 4th gen OU tier, but now it has a nice niche. People need to think outside the box sometimes.
P.S: No, I don't use ludicolo/kingdra/kabutops, even though I have a NU/UU team that benefits from drizzle (which makes interesting but underwhelming pokemon great again!). If that trio is that impossible to defeat, well, make them uber. Banning drizzle as a whole will just make the metagame less diverse in my opinion (sandstorm teams are already everywhere, probably 7 out of 10 teams I face, banning rain would just make things worse).
Good argument and unique perspective. What do you use to utilize rain outside of swift swim/manaphy?
A main difference between banning Swift Swim and banning the sweepers individually is that with the latter, you only need to ban stuff like Kingdra and maybe Ludicolo/Kabutops, leaving the rest of the rain sweepers and the actual rain playstyles (both offensive and stall) alone.
IMO, the main advantage of banning the sweepers alone is that you're not banning stuff that's clearly not broken in ANY situation (Swift Swim Luvdisc), and that you're not actually removing any playstyles either (Infinite rain allows rain stall, lack of OP sweepers allow non-rain teams to have a good chance, and offensive rain can still utilize the Swift Swim and Double STAB with Pokemon that don't force overcentralization.)
IMO, the main advantage of banning the sweepers alone is that you're not banning stuff that's clearly not broken in ANY situation (Swift Swim Luvdisc), and that you're not actually removing any playstyles either (Infinite rain allows rain stall, lack of OP sweepers allow non-rain teams to have a good chance, and offensive rain can still utilize the Swift Swim and Double STAB with Pokemon that don't force overcentralization.)
I would have to say that the most surprising pokemon in my team right now is swift swin poliwrath. Yes, it is a swift swimmer, but it doesn't have the stats nor the movepool to abuse it like kingdra or kabutops. However, it is pretty effective if sent against something weak to it, using belly drum on the switch and then attacking with really strong attacks.
Lanturn is doing great having that nice sp def and ability to cripple foes with thunder wave. Pelipper surprised me with its good hurricane and ability to take a hit from a physical kingra and azumarril is a solid pokemon that now has a boosted aqua jet to work with and nice defenses.
It is an UU/NU team, obviously (except for politoed), but drizzle made it usable in OU. Of course, there are other pokemon such as parasect, jynx, blastoise, gorebyss, huntail and so many others that might not be your usual OU material, but are so much better in the rain.
Ahh, i only partiall addressed that ^^ i'll edit it to make that a more clear goal.
Dry Skin and Rain Dish users? Toxicroak, Parasect, Ludicolo, Tentacruel. Also, if you're going to ban rain abusers, you're going to have to ban Omastar, Kabutops, Kingdra, Manaphy, Toxicroak, Ludicolo, and even Tornelos (Gale). Since all the rain sweepers are banned, you might as well ban Sandstorm sweepers as well: these include Doryuuzu, Randorosu, and Garchomp. Heck, you might as well ban Sun sweepers as well, like Venusaur. Do you really want to ban all this?
Exactly. With 8-turn rain, all of these things are till useful, just not broken
This isn't exactly what the idea is about.
It's not that all "weather abusers", as a category, get banned.
Instead, we treat Pokemon like (Manaphy, obviously), Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops as just regular suspects. They are to be banned if they're deemed OP.
In this situation, Drizzle would just be treated like SR or other support would be in a suspect testing; it would simply be part of the metagame separate from the Pokemon itself. If Kingdra is found to be broken after considering Drizzle support, we'd treat it the same as if Pokemon X is found to be broken after considering SR support.
As a result, by pursuing this 3rd method, we not only can simply test these Pokemon with the exact same suspect testing method we've done before, but we also keep every playstyle viable:
Defensive Rain Dance gets Infinite Rain
Offensive Rain Dance gets non-OP Swift Swimmers/other abusers
Non-weather teams no longer have to deal with overcentralizing rain abusers
It's a win-win for everyone, and I simply don't see why this option isn't considered more.
Also, addressing some potential concerns:
Kingdra and co may have been BL and below in previous generations, but what happened in previous generations is irrelevant to this generation.
They may be possibly viable with 8-turn rain, but this is a double standard between the different weathers; for sand, only the sweepers are seriously being considered for suspects, whereas the idea removing Sand Stream in favor of 8-turn sandstorm is simply absurd.
^^ while I don't see a lot of use for those pokemon just because of rain dish or dry skin alone, I can see their general usefullness. The only problem is that without swift swim it will require any one of those pokemon you want (prolly the best user is cruel for spiking/stall, as i've actually seen that work) plus drizzle politoed... so it can't be just a utility spot on a team.
Not nessicarily, as I edited the post to say, Abuse is different from Use, and which pokemon are too powerful would determine who got banned in that senario (i'm neither for nor against either, just explaining) not which pokemon have the ability to utilize the weather to benefit.
This is speculation, as based on which route we use to fix the situation for rain the effect on sand and sun will be different, and to be honest none of them can really be speculated about without a test first.
In other words, you can say that now, but there's no way those things can really happen in a single test along side a huge change like the change that will happen to rain.
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