np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[voodoo pimp]

Unless they have Dragonite or Scarved Latios or something, I think you'll get more than one since you'll have +2 at that point and +2 Atk/Spd could be the end of it. Swords Dance/Hi Jump Kick/Shadow Claw/Stone Edge or Baton Pass (Baton Pass can be done on the server, I've seen it) or Flare Blitz/Blaze Kick is devestating.

Techniloom and friends can take it out with priority, bulky resists can survive a hit and take it out, and there's always the risk of a miss on most of the stronger moves, so it's not completely invincible, but yeah, usually it's GG at that point if they don't have an actual counter.

Also, Baton Pass is currently illegal, but the server doesn't seem to know that, so that's a debatable point. But there's really not much need to pass it anyway.

 

[Arc Tech]

Unless they have Dragonite or Scarved Latios or something, I think you'll get more than one since you'll have +2 at that point and +2 Atk/Spd could be the end of it. Swords Dance/Hi Jump Kick/Shadow Claw/Stone Edge or Baton Pass (Baton Pass can be done on the server, I've seen it) or Flare Blitz/Blaze Kick is devestating.

Why...would Nattorei EVER stay in on Blaziken? If they don't Swords Dance and decide to toast you instead, you just lost Nattorei. And most walls use Will-o-wisp (immunity) and Toxic (Blaziken is still going to take out a number of Pokemon before Toxic kill it).

As for why natty would stay in... you need to look at the situation. if they have nothing capable of handling a +2 blaziken... they switch and the lose the game. They don't switch and they only lose nattorei.

 

[ensoriki]

Step 1. : Trick room
Step 2: Laugh at Blaziken

 

[voodoo pimp]

Step 1. : Trick room
Step 2: Laugh at Blaziken

Except
1) Your Trick Room user has to already be in when Blaziken comes in, or it dies to a +2 whatever before it can set up.
2) You're using Trick Room.

 

[Demoness]

Whats the problem with using Trick Room? Rankurusu and Bronzong both make great sweepers under Trick Room and they can set it up themselves.

 

[Arc Tech]

Trick room is a bit more viable this gen, thanks to rank and a whole slew of slow pokes. But still not that common.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Whats the problem with using Trick Room? Rankurusu and Bronzong both make great sweepers under Trick Room and they can set it up themselves.

Yes, but they would still have to be facing Blaziken. If they're switching in and it grabs Swords Dance, Brongzong and Rankurusu can both die. Brongzong definitely and Rankurusu *might* survive but it still takes ridiculous damage and Shadow Claw almost has a half chance of a 1 hit ko and if it criticals then you're dead.

And Breloom is annoying but Zapdos and Gliscor and Gyrados etc are still excellent switch ins.

If they had no Blaziken counter and the best they had left is Nattorei to stop it, once Blaziken kills Nattorei, then they're going to lose. It doesn't make a difference in the before or after.

 

[Arc Tech]

Yes, but they would still have to be facing Blaziken. If they're switching in and it grabs Swords Dance, Brongzong and Rankurusu can both die. Brongzong definitely and Rankurusu *might* survive but it still takes ridiculous damage and Shadow Claw almost has a half chance of a 1 hit ko and if it criticals then you're dead.

And Breloom is annoying but Zapdos and Gliscor and Gyrados etc are still excellent switch ins.

If they had no Blaziken counter and the best they had left is Nattorei to stop it, once Blaziken kills Nattorei, then they're going to lose. It doesn't make a difference in the before or after.

A lot more can handle a paralyzed +2 blaziken than a not para'd +2 blaziken. And I didn't say they had nothing that could handle blaziken. I said they had nothing left which could handle +2 blaziken.

 

[Roy Mustang]

I saw people you guys arguing about blaziken and I had to make a post.

This is the scenario that happened to me using a sand storm team every time.

(insert pokemon) switched to doryuuzu
Blaziken used swords dance
Doryuuzu used earthquake
Blaziken fainted!

Outside of sandstorm, I switch to rankurusu (max def/hp, bold nature) and kill it with psycho shock. Only one or two time have I seen blaziken with shadow claw, but that will change when the baton pass glitch is fixed. Priority wrecks blaziken, as does anything with sturdy/focus sash.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

I saw people you guys arguing about blaziken and I had to make a post.

This is the scenario that happened to me using a sand storm team every time.

(insert pokemon) switched to doryuuzu
Blaziken used swords dance
Doryuuzu used earthquake
Blaziken fainted!

Outside of sandstorm, I switch to rankurusu (max def/hp, bold nature) and kill it with psycho shock. Only one or two time have I seen blaziken with shadow claw, but that will change when the baton pass glitch is fixed. Priority wrecks blaziken, as does anything with sturdy/focus sash.

Oh yeah, that's why Blaziken wasn't very used...

Here's me hoping for Drizzle to finally be banned now that the voting is starting *crosses fingers*. And Landlos, that one as well and Manaphy and Latios.

 

[Roy Mustang]

Here's me hoping for Drizzle to finally be banned now that the voting is starting *crosses fingers*. And Landlos, that one as well and Manaphy.

I agree, drizzle needs to go. I have used a drizzle team and it only lost when I played horribly, or against good sand storm teams or teams with 3+ rain counters (which most likely lost a lot becase they dedicated half of their team to countering rain).

I have never had much success with landlos and whenever I fought it I ko'd with latios/anything faster.

Manaphy is only good in rain. Without rain, the calm mind set doesn't work very well, and the tail glow set get's killed by anything faster pretty much.

 

[Runa]

Oh yeah, that's why Blaziken wasn't very used...

Here's me hoping for Drizzle to finally be banned now that the voting is starting *crosses fingers*. And Landlos, that one as well and Manaphy and Latios.

Drizzle shouldn't be banned in my opinion... If you ask me, the real broken threat in the current screwed up metagame is Doryuuzu. It is sometimes easy to kill, sometimes it kills easy. It's so nasty that it deserves a ban, or at least limitations. But then again if Drizzle stays, manaphy will be a threat. Though it isn't all that common as of late. I really don't see the need to stress over it. if Teamview keeps in play, and you have a decent rain counter in your team, rain isn't a problem.

But seriously.... EVERY OTHER TEAM is a sandstorm team. It gets old always having to carry SS counters in my team. I ended up just using an SS team to be safe. It's not all that fun, having the threat of SS teams lurking in the metagame. There should at least be some limitations going on, i mean really. SS was nasty in 4th gen, now it's just unfair.

 

[voodoo pimp]

Oh yeah, that's why Blaziken wasn't very used...

Honestly, I've never had trouble with Doryuuzu, or sand in general. Rain, on the other hand...

 

[Runa]

See, I don't have trouble with rain. In all honesty, I hardly ever see rain teams either. And when i do, it's easy to carry a pokemon like Gastrodon/Voltolos/Jolteon/Zapdos that will work In or Out of Rain. SS on the other hand is a tougher cookie to crack. You can't exactly hope for an ss team, and just carry a Doryuuzu around with you.

 

[ginganinja]

well shoving a Gliscor on your team helps in taking down Dory. Skarmory is also another decent check. Both can work inside and outside Sandstorm so there should be little issues.

 

[IcyMan28]

I saw people you guys arguing about blaziken and I had to make a post.

This is the scenario that happened to me using a sand storm team every time.

(insert pokemon) switched to doryuuzu
Blaziken used swords dance
Doryuuzu used earthquake
Blaziken fainted!

Outside of sandstorm, I switch to rankurusu (max def/hp, bold nature) and kill it with psycho shock. Only one or two time have I seen blaziken with shadow claw, but that will change when the baton pass glitch is fixed. Priority wrecks blaziken, as does anything with sturdy/focus sash.

Dory will fail against mixed Blaziken and it isn't like Blaziken MUST SD on the first turn - it could just as easily toss out a HJK or Fire Blast to scout the switch (and they'll know you have Dory from Team Preview).

Jolly Blaziken does a crippling amount to Max/Max Bold Reuniclus with +2 LO Flare Blitz, and Adamant will always OHKO even without rocks. If Reuniclus is your only means of checking SDKen, then your only real hope of preventing a sweep is poor play by your opponent.

So your basing a Drizzle ban of the theory that things will replace the 3 before mentioned pokemon and be efficient enough to also be deemed broken.

The post was directed to everyone not explicitly you Icyman.

To leave off, are even 10 pokemon worth keeping if an ability does not break the remaining rest of the pokemon in the game?
You said 4 pokemon are broken , Kingdra,Ludi,tops, Manaphy. You gave 3 threats at current, Gorybess,Omastar, Quilfish.

Simply put. If out of 649 pokemon Drizzle breaks 10 or even less, Drizzle sure as hell isn't broken.
The 4 pokemon maybe the 3 threats too if we suspect them too should be banned should they not?
Why ban an effect that doesn't break what 639 (Not exact) pokemon.

No. I'm supporting a Drizzle ban on the evidence that it breaks three pokemon currently, and that it is easier to ban one ability (that exists on a mere 2 pokemon) than to ban 3 pokemon.

Also, there are not 649 viable pokemon for standard, which is what we are dealing with. Last gen, OU hovered around a population of 50 pokemon (about 10 percent of all pokemon and an even smaller percentage of fully evolved pokemon). With the additional 150 added this gen, I'd say OU will probably end up hovering around 58-65 pokemon (Roohbushin, Nattorei, Doryuuzu, Bloongell, Sazandora, Reuniclus, Urugamosu, Landlos all bring the total up to about 58), so banning 4 pokemon is significantly more impactful than your initial assumption.

We do not ban based on what isn't broken. We ban what is.

 

[SJCrew]

To everyone arguing about which weather sweepers are broken, here is what I don't understand: why are we evaluating these Rain Pokemon based on individual merits when they're never, ever solo? Drizzle creates teams of broken Pokemon, not one or two that work alone and 6-0 teams. The fact that such fast and absurdly powerful Pokemon can work together in any quantity and run over most teams together with the support of a simple weather condition proves that the playstyle itself broken.

I'm not the least bit concerned with what the best Rain Pokemon are. If you ban the top three, three more will take their place and use their own capabilities to achieve the same effect. It'll go from Ludicolo, Kabutops and Kingdra to Gorebyss, Golduck, and Omastar then Huntail, Floatzel, and Gamageroge. Essentially, what you want is to see three or four different Drizzle metagames before you can safely conclude what many of us have figured out all along. Personally, I'd rather not wait until the Lumineon/Luvdisc metagame for people to figure out that permanent Rain is broken.

 

[Runa]

To everyone arguing about which weather sweepers are broken, here is what I don't understand: why are we evaluating these Rain Pokemon based on individual merits when they're never, ever solo? Drizzle creates teams of broken Pokemon, not one or two that work alone and 6-0 teams. The fact that such fast and absurdly powerful Pokemon can work together in any quantity and run over most teams together with the support of a simple weather condition proves that the playstyle itself broken.

I'm not the least bit concerned with what the best Rain Pokemon are. If you ban the top three, three more will take their place and use their own capabilities to achieve the same effect. It'll go from Ludicolo, Kabutops and Kingdra to Gorebyss, Golduck, and Omastar then Huntail, Floatzel, and Gamageroge. Essentially, what you want is to see three or four different Drizzle metagames before you can safely conclude what many of us have figured out all along. Personally, I'd rather not wait until the Lumineon/Luvdisc metagame for people to figure out that permanent Rain is broken.

I have to say, I do agree with that... Though it's sort of a slap to the face to just ban it off the bat as well. If anything, there should just be more testing going on. Arguing about it on the forums won't solve much. Lol

If we were to ban rain, it would somewhat stablize the metagame. BUT it would be interesting, I have to admit, To see some limitations applied to Rain and SS. Just for a little while, and see how it plays out. If other pokemon really do rise to fill the ranks, or if it just turns out to be a messed up metagame. Because, honestly, iff you put limitations on rain it wouldn't be nearly as threatening. And banning it wouldn't be an issue. Since some walls and minor sweeepers becom at least ADEQUATE under rain. It might actually help to balance things out. But, then again, it might just end up doing the opposite and making a bigger mess. I, yet again, think we should just test crap, and do more testing.

I'm excited to see how the metagame and tiers are when it's all finished, though. Hopefully it will be more stable for everyone.

 

[Roy Mustang]

Dory will fail against mixed Blaziken and it isn't like Blaziken MUST SD on the first turn - it could just as easily toss out a HJK or Fire Blast to scout the switch (and they'll know you have Dory from Team Preview).

Jolly Blaziken does a crippling amount to Max/Max Bold Reuniclus with +2 LO Flare Blitz, and Adamant will always OHKO even without rocks. If Reuniclus is your only means of checking SDKen, then your only real hope of preventing a sweep is poor play by your opponent.



No. I'm supporting a Drizzle ban on the evidence that it breaks three pokemon currently, and that it is easier to ban one ability (that exists on a mere 2 pokemon) than to ban 3 pokemon.

Also, there are not 649 viable pokemon for standard, which is what we are dealing with. Last gen, OU hovered around a population of 50 pokemon (about 10 percent of all pokemon and an even smaller percentage of fully evolved pokemon). With the additional 150 added this gen, I'd say OU will probably end up hovering around 58-65 pokemon (Roohbushin, Nattorei, Doryuuzu, Bloongell, Sazandora, Reuniclus, Urugamosu, Landlos all bring the total up to about 58), so banning 4 pokemon is significantly more impactful than your initial assumption.

We do not ban based on what isn't broken. We ban what is.

1. Yes it can attack on the switch. A good player can at least have better judgement on what the opponent is going to do by looking at their playstyle throughout the match.

2. Rankurusu has magic guard so rocks don't matter. And if it is your only method of checking blaziken than that is your own fault. It doesn't mean blaziken is over powered. A lot of things can sweep unprepared teams.

3. I agree with what you said about drizzle. Also, you aren't banning any pokemon by banning drizzle. Politoed has other abilities and kyogre was already banned, and would most likely stay that way even without drizzle.

 

[alphatron]

Max/Max rankurusu takes 97.9% - 115.6% from Jolly +2 Blaziken's Flare Blitz. He isn't a reliable counter by any means.

As for Doryuzuu on SS teams, I'll give you that. Considering that I handle him by switching in Jumpluff on sun teams and encoring the Sword's Dance and then subseeding. Of course, Jumpluff dies if my opponent predicts me and goes for blaze kick/stone edge, but hey. Niether Dory nor Pluff is a counter anyway.

 

[IcyMan28]

I never said Blaziken was broken. Im saying Reuniclus is a shitty check and takes like 97% min from blaze.

EDIT: Also, SJCrew is right on the money. Rain sweepers provide one another with extreme support to the point where it is basically double, triple, and quadruple dragon on steroids. Drizzle is breaking pokemon who are, at the very best, mid-OU (Kingdra) or lower, and banning the SwSw will not alleviate the problem until we get down to banning Luvdisc.

EDIT2: Phil says this is the thread to talk about nominations, so I guess that's where I'll do it.

Rankurusu: Really?

A few weeks ago I'd probably laugh at the thought of banning Rankurusu, but after playing this round extensively I've come to the conclusion that it is an absolute bitch to take down and is possibly the best Pokemon in the metagame. Magic Guard on what would be a solid Pokemon is just too good, plain and simple. CM flat out shuts down stall teams and shrugs off Tyranitar Crunches and Scizor U-turns without a problem with proper EV investment. TR + 3 atks absolutely runs rampant over more aggro teams and gives Drizzle teams a run for their money as well. Access to STAB Psycho Shock allows it to win any CM war and massive HP + Magic Guard makes it just impossible to kill. I'd love to see this thing get banned.

I'm not picking at this poster in particular, but I've seen a few posts that seem to run along the lines of "it is a bitch to take down so I want it to go." Timid Heatran's Fire Blast, Jolly Tyranitar's Crunch, Timid Gengar's Shadow Ball, Starmie's LO Hydro Pump, Timid Sazandora's Draco Meteor...all of these moves are 2HKOing, meaning that it can only Recover stall for so long before a critical hit happens or some form of hax (this is Bold Max/Max I'm assuming). It may be the team I run but I don't see Rankurusu to be as big of a threat. To each his own, though.

As far as Tyranitar...how is it suspect this gen when it was arguably better last gen?

Tyranitar's checks have increased and the metagame around it has become stronger, faster, and considerably more fighting-typed. ScarfTar is all but useless these days, and the most popular sets seem to be mixed (which lessens Tyranitar's strength as an attacker in general).

 

[Roy Mustang]

Max/Max rankurusu takes 97.9% - 115.6% from Jolly +2 Blaziken's Flare Blitz. He isn't a reliable counter by any means.

As for Doryuzuu on SS teams, I'll give you that. Considering that I handle him by switching in Jumpluff on sun teams and encoring the Sword's Dance and then subseeding. Of course, Jumpluff dies if my opponent predicts me and goes for blaze kick/stone edge, but hey. Niether Dory nor Pluff is a counter anyway.

Apperently I have been lucky. xD. I find blaziken to be underwhelming, but I guess that's because the teams I have been using aren't blaziken weak. Usually my opponent is stupid and leads with blaziken and uses swords dance on my deoxys, and then I psycho boost them and set up rocks/spikes on the next pokemon that comes in. Also, Gliscor kills blaziken the same way it kills doryuuzu. I am definitially going to test blaziken on my next team though, because I have never used one myself. And I am going to get a gliscor counter. (He is the reason I didn't make it to 1400)

@ IcyMan28, I didn't say that you said blaziken is broken. It just seems like most of the people on this thread are trying to say that every pokemon is broken.

 

[IcyMan28]

Lol SDing on Deoxys.

Oh, and Gliscor can be OHKOd by Adamant Blaziken's +2 LO Flare Blitz. Just saying.

I find the best way to check Blaziken is to have a Scarfer who outspeeds it at +1 in combination with a pokemon to resist its STABs. If it doesn't run Protect, the Scarfer will outspeed and KO while if it does, its STABs get walled.

 

[BenXxX]

so... when r we going to start uu? XD

 

[voodoo pimp]

Apperently I have been lucky. xD. I find blaziken to be underwhelming, but I guess that's because the teams I have been using aren't blaziken weak. Usually my opponent is stupid and leads with blaziken and uses swords dance on my deoxys, and then I psycho boost them and set up rocks/spikes on the next pokemon that comes in.

SDing on Deoxys is pretty stupid, yeah. Every one I've ever seen has been sashed, so even if it starts with a hazard, it's still going to kill you. Personally, I usually try to get it in on a physical sweeper after Sableye burns it.

What really pisses me off, though? Genosect. Bastard runs through half my team.